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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Clickey on Fri, 26 August 2011, 18:43:16
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Seems like they are just high quality capacitive rubber domes? I thought the drive behind the entire mechanical keyboard agenda is "rubber domes suck"? I haven't tried one yet, but based on their switch mechanics, I have no interest in them. This is not a troll post, I just really don't get why people like them at such an enormous pricetag.
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Because typing on them is like typing on a cloud of boobs.
Seriously, they feel super nice to type on. Very subtle and soft though (described as buttery or velvety sometimes).
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The uniform weighted is not that nice for typing.
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The uniform weighted is not that nice for typing.
Say what say what?
I would agree to SOME extent about all 55g. It's a manly switch. Have you tried all 45g though? If not I wouldn't make that assumption.
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Because its amazing, thats all
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I am liking the HHKB with uniform 45G switches. Not too light, not too heavy.
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You really have to buy it to know why people love them. I knew (hoped) i would like them when i bought one, but nothing could have prepared me for how nice it felt.
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Say what say what?
I would agree to SOME extent about all 55g. It's a manly switch. Have you tried all 45g though? If not I wouldn't make that assumption.
I tried the 45g keys on my variable by moving my hand a bit away from the F and J keys, and I didn't like the 45g feel for the ring and pinky fingers. It felt worse than the weighted keys.
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They really are very soft and subtle.
If you like some noise and mechanical feeling when you type then a Topre is probably not for you.
Part of the fun of mechanical keyboards is often the "mechanical feel" associated with the switches.
I think that's why some folks don't like Topres.
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Test it out and see why its worth so much.
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The attitude isn't that rubber domes suck. The attitude is that low quality rubber domes suck. With Topre you get high quality rubber domes with a nice little weak spring to actuate the key. It's about quality and how that affects feel and switch lifetime. You gotta try it to understand why people pay the high price tag for it.
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I just really don't get why people like them at such an enormous pricetag.
The enormous pricetag is exactly the main selling point.
Nobody cares about a fantastic rubber (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?21293-Surprised-by-rubberdome)dome if sold at 10€
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Seems like they are just high quality capacitive rubber domes? I thought the drive behind the entire mechanical keyboard agenda is "rubber domes suck"? I haven't tried one yet, but based on their switch mechanics, I have no interest in them. This is not a troll post, I just really don't get why people like them at such an enormous pricetag.
The word your looking for is membrane dome, membrane in pinkie-finger sizes. Membrane because the low-volume translucency of the plastic. Rubber domes tend to be of higher-quality due to a thicker type of rubber. Despite the fact that scissor switches aren't made in higher-quality; I'm sure many here in GH would love a high quality scissor mechanism if they are into scissor switches. If you notice despite using an even smaller dome due to how it's constructed it seems to offer a little more than compared to membranes.
Topres are a quintuple hybrid switch encompassing both the aspects of a rubber dome and a mechanical switch. 1. Capacitive (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/const/switchCap-c.html) PCB(Providing electricity and full-NKRO through nestled hierarchy with port limitation), 2. Conical spring(5 grams; hence it's part mechanical, you can argue that anything using a spring is mechanical like say buckling spring), 3. High-quality rubber dome(with the capacity to set the weights to 30g, 40g, or 50g; +5 from the spring), 4.Mechanical switch housing(the plastic housing similar to any mechanical switch like say the Cherries or Alps), and 5. Mechanical switch plunger(similar to the cherry style except it's just pushing the dome from the top).
You can argue that this makes the Topre one of the most reliable switches for typing and probably second behind hall-effect(magnetic) switches in critical applications. You could even argue the simplicity of dome/mat replacement compared to cherry switch replacement and maintain a Topre indefinitely to the point of failure, if Topre did ever sell the domes/mats look at some of the maintained Airport and Bank topres being many years old.
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They feel nice. They're quiet. They are excellent for gaming. They're 6KRO. The build quality is superb.
Yes, the price is ludicrous. Consider it the "hobbyist tax".
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Well for me it was a high quality switch in a compact layout that I adore. The HHKB is really the perfect travel keyboard. Not loud at all, compact UNIX layout, and the topre switch all combined to create what may be the perfect keyboard.
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There are rubber dome/membrane keyboards and there are rubber dome/capacitive keyboards (and probably more). The Topres are nothing like ordinary, cheap, membrane keyboards, everything is better. You don't need to bottom out the keys for them to register (this is in some sense how it is labeled "mechanical"), the sliders are smooth as a prenatal lambs stomach (only the spacebar needs a stabilizer, and gosh that has to be the awesomest spacebar in existence), the key caps are nice dye sublimated PBT, the quality feel all over is way ahead compared to any other keyboard I've touched (including fancy ones like the Filcos). The switching mechanism is "contact free", there is no surfaces that can corrode. The actuation is extremely reliable over the boards life span, unlike the membrane keyboards I've used that go flaky after a while.
There is simply no comparison between a Topre board and a regular rubber dome/membrane one. Whether you like the feel or not is of course personal preference. Part of the reason they are as expensive as they are is of course because people are ready to pay, but unlike with a A&F sweater you do not only pay to look gay. One thing that would make the Realforces even better would be if the footprint (surrounding "frame") were smaller, like on the HHKB or the Filcos, and the switches are not really mod-friendly which is kind of a joy killer for a home tinkerer like me. All over though I'd say that my Realforce is the sweetest feeling keyboard I've ever used.
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I never understood why people pay so much for video cards when PC Gaming is dying.
More or less because the same reason someone spend hundred of dollars in physical keyboards (sometime on rubber dome ones) when the the majority of people are starting to use the virtual ones.
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I never understood why people pay so much for video cards when PC Gaming is dying.
As a Zynga employee I can tell you that PC Gaming is bigger than all other forms of video gaming combined, perhaps even by an order of magnitude AND definitely financially. :P
If anything, console gaming is dying because companies don't see $$$ when they look at it anymore.
Who knew that it would take Farmville to take down consoles?
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I have found NKRO of little use in Farmville.
You obviously aren't playing it right then! The Zynga SC2 league does training sessions in Farmville to increase our APM and accuracy.
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They feel nice. They're quiet. They are excellent for gaming. They're 6KRO. The build quality is superb.
Yes, the price is ludicrous. Consider it the "hobbyist tax".
This pretty much sums up how I feel as well.
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They feel nice. They're quiet. They are excellent for gaming. They're 6KRO. The build quality is superb.
Yes, the price is ludicrous. Consider it the "hobbyist tax".
Topres have well-designed variable weighting and a super-smooth force curve. Those are nice attributes, unique to Topre, that largely justify the price.
If I had to be stranded on a desert island with only one board, purchased new at retail price, it'd be a Kinesis Contoured. But if you could get a Kinesis with topre switches, weighted like a Realforce 86U, it'd be that.
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Good point. I never understood why people paid so much for keyboards when the PC is dying.
Maybe we'll get a keyboard renaissance.
When the mass market moves onto phones and tablets, a larger fraction of people still using keyboards will type a lot and may care about what they type on.
Is it 1988 again yet?
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I'll leave my slightly dissenting opinion on Topres.
Here's been my rapid progression. Das browns -> Realforce Topre -> Filco browns
So, all that's said is true. Realforce kb is a solid keyboard. Very solid, feels great. High quality build, love the matte feel/finish to it. The keys feel solid. Now, it's a bit of a sidestep from the other mechanical keys. Less satisfying in some ways. But smooth and solid keystrokes as described. In comparison, the Das keyboard felt cheap and jiggly and too shiny.
So, backing up a little. I've had some problems with my right index finger with repetitive use. In particular due to repetitive clicking using a mouse. I switched over to a vertical 3M mouse a while back and it pretty much resolved the issue.
The Realforce keyboard feels heavier to me than the Das, despite having comparable force profiles. I've seen others relay this same sentiment. It was fatiguing for me to type on the Realforce as compared to the Das. After a couple of weeks my right index finger was acting up again. So I started looking around again. I thought maybe I needed an even lighter switch. Such as reds. I even considered buying the Topre all-30g. In the end I decided this -- in my case, I think the problem was the fact that it's hard not to bottom out on the topres. So whatever force that was from the impact, was causing my problems. So I think red's would have had the same problem. As would the 30g topres. With the browns I can favor my finger and not bottom out. If not for this issue, I probably would have settled on the Realforce.
So I went back to the Das temporarily, and then (just) got a Filco tenkeyless with brown. Both for the better build quality and also the tenkeyless (das is full sized) which I prefer. I'm still curious about the blues, however, but happy with the filco for the moment.
arn
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I didn't know there were 30g realforce. I think you may be wrong.
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I didn't know there were 30g realforce. I think you may be wrong.
http://www.geekstuff4u.com/realforce-108udk-all30g-keyboard.html
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I didn't know there were 30g realforce. I think you may be wrong.
http://www.geekstuff4u.com/realforce-108udk-all30g-keyboard.html
arn
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http://www.geekstuff4u.com/realforce-108udk-all30g-keyboard.html
arn
Sorry, I hadn't ever heard of 30g. Only ever heard about 45g,55g and variable.
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Sorry, I hadn't ever heard of 30g. Only ever heard about 45g,55g and variable.
No problem. It's a bit of an obscure board. In fact, for a while, I was trying to hunt down this Topre tenkeyless all-30g that also existed:
http://www.dharmapoint.com/products/DRTCKB91
but it seems that has been discontinued.
arn
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Why? Because the Cherry keyboards feel like crap to type on after you get over the novelty of "OOOOOH CLICKY".
Just becasue we had it all 20 years ago doesn't make it great. The Topre is IMO one of the more worthwhile efforts to marry response vs feel.
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@arn: More likely your hand position. None of the Filcos + some other mechanicals I've used nor the Topre have an entirely comfortable typing position for me.
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No problem. It's a bit of an obscure board. In fact, for a while, I was trying to hunt down this Topre tenkeyless all-30g that also existed:
http://www.dharmapoint.com/products/DRTCKB91
but it seems that has been discontinued.
arn
Notice the hardware windows key key stopper!
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Im a big advocate for the cloud of boobs argument.
But its true, they feel very buttery smooth and the THOK is to die for.
On the other side, i would have to agree that they are actually pretty fatiguing when compared to browns.
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What means THOK ?
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What means THOK ?
That would be the auditory feedback.
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OK, that makes sense. Ty. :)
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On the other side, i would have to agree that they are actually pretty fatiguing when compared to browns.
Even the 45g topres are more tiring than the browns? Since they use the same force I would think they need about the same effort.
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Even the 45g topres are more tiring than the browns? Since they use the same force I would think they need about the same effort.
yeah, i would say so. I have a hhkb (uniform 45g) and i definitely find it more fatiguing than my browns. It could be a mental thing i guess, but it could be the bottoming out part mentioned previously. I dont bottom out on my browns, but i do on the topres. Ive had them for barely a week, so i need more practice, but i still find topre just as pleasing, if not more pleasing than my browns as the buttery smooth part is quite nice.
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I find the 55g far less tiring than Cherry Blacks, and the feel is just superb. Apart from that, very solidly built, fantastic key caps, should be very durable as well. I just picked up my second Realforce recently. I've been trying to get used to plate-mounted browns at the office and they just bottom out too easily so I wind up smacking a metal plate all day, which ruins the ergo characteristics. So for the time being my daily drivers at work and at home will be Topre.
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I have the the variable silent 86U and although I really do like it, I do find it will fatigue my hands especially my thumb when typing a lot. My all time favorite which I can type on pretty much endlessly with no issues is my Filco with reds. I can type fast and light on the reds with no bottoming out. For whatever reason no matter how light I try to type on the topres I bottom out and maybe that's what causes my hand fatigue.
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(http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9630243.jpg)