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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:23:41

Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:23:41: Hello all!

I am having a hard time finding relevant posts using the search feature which will guide me on my new keyboard purchase. I am a heavy keyboard user (I mean heavy as in I type all day, not that I type with a lot of force), so words like heavy, frequent, often, lots, etc. don't seem to give me the results I am hoping for.

I have been punishing myself with a microsoft 4000 (with a health warning on the bottom about too much use). I find that the keys give a lot of resistance and on days where I really type a lot (novel writing + emails), my fingers are a bit sore at the end of the day. I am a pretty fast typist (never measured) and I would say that I am a "precision typist" in that I think I have a fair amount of motor control and would be able to avoid bottoming out the keys unless they were really soft.

Like most, I don't have a way to test the various switches to see what I might like or not. I am also a bit worried about the noise, but I can deal with it if it will mean comfortable typing. I have pretty much settled on the browns since they require less force to push down.

So, for someone who types all day long (and frequently into the night), which switch is best? I don't do any gaming. Until this post, I had settled on either the filco or ducky w/ browns. The filcos (Majestouch-2, Tenkeyless) are now sold out on amazon, so I was leaning towards the ducky DK1087-B or DK9000G2-B.

I am guessing that any of the mechanical switch keyboards will be better than the MS 4000 (although I do love the ergo design), but does anyone have any comments?

Thank you every one in advance!

FF
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: noodles256 on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:26:18: topre
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:33:36: So say one's budget was in the $100-$150 range. It looks like the topre boards are in the $245-$345 range. I may have to work up to that.

I guess my next question is if a keyboard with the browns will give any relief over what I have now (MS 4000). The keys on this keyboard feel difficult to press and seem like they have a lot of resistance.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:36:22: There was a sticker on this space invader board that said something in the realm of "the use of any computer keyboard/input device is a health risk". So I think that's fairly common.

I suppose the only real question, is if you are restricting to new things only or if they can be used. Because it could be that what is tiring you is the hitting the bottom of every keypress. Almost no mechanicals require this, so it may not even be activation force that is bothering you.

What do you mean by the noise worries you?
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:43:11: I guess I am not too worried about the noise. I have seen a lot of posts where others mention this (I work in an office... my cube is next to my bosses... etc.). I don't really have this situation, but I understand that some keys (blues) are louder due to the clicking. I guess I am more concerned about a the effort to push the switch down. I saw that the topre ones have distributed sensitivity, so that sounded really nice, just a bit out of my budget.

I don't really have a problem with used, but I am not keen to wait too long. I would buy something tonight if I knew what to get.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: ZeroGraVT on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:48:45: If you're going to type all day you might want to take a look at the kinesis contour though it's a bit over your budget.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: Tony on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:48:58: Filco Brown switches with Ninja keycaps, as mine.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:49:39: Well if I'm right about it really just being bottoming out, then that opens nearly every one of them. Including "heavy" ones like buckling springs. Personally those variable weighted ones in general would drive me up a wall, because I don't always hit every key with the same finger. Especially when I move my hand over to wasd.

IMO I'd get a model m to start off. It's just about the loudest most tactile one there is. It can also be had for about $30 on ebay (and can be used as a club). Then if you don't like it, you can decide what you want less of and go from there. Wouldn't be hard to sell it back either if you wanted to.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 30 August 2011, 21:57:25: A model M from ebay is a great idea, but I work on a laptop (external monitor) that has no ps2 port. So I am stuck with USB.

At this point I am leaning towards the ducky DK1087 with brown (the Filco isn't available now - at least I couldn't find it).

That kinesis contour is a strange looking machine!
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: lucky777 on Tue, 30 August 2011, 22:04:59: ps/2 to usb adapters are like 75 cents on ebay...

Anyways I think blues, reds, topres and browns are nice to type on. I haven't tried a model M (or I have but it was at least 2 decades ago, so I wouldn't remember), but I hear they're somewhat like White Alps and those take too much force to use (imo).
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: mcc on Tue, 30 August 2011, 22:18:14: Hi,

I type all day due to my profession. I would suggest a IBM MODEL M. I typed on """keyboards""" with bad rubber domes...its like typeing on butter.... ;)
The audible and tactile feedback of the IBM Model M make typeing fast and correct easy.
So many people who like this keyboard (google for "The one true keyboard" ;) cannot be /THAT/ wrong. ;)))
And to repeat one last argument: They are build to last (nearly) for ever.
;)

Only my two cents, your currency may vary ;)

Best regards,
mcc
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: shrap on Tue, 30 August 2011, 22:22:22: In my experience, the ergo board's benefits are more important than any switch type. But there are very few mechanical ergo boards, the ergo subforum covers them on a regular basis.

Do you think you can switch back to a conventional layout? If so, I'd just go buy whatever's on the classifieds here, you can't lose a lot of money buying a used board and then reselling it virtually at the same price if it doesn't work out for you.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 30 August 2011, 22:22:32: I wouldn't say usb adapters are that cheap, but they are only about $10.

Even then, if you have to have it native, you could get a new usb unicomp, but that'd be about $80.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: Arcanius on Tue, 30 August 2011, 22:41:37: You could go for a Leopold with Browns, they're light and very nice to type on! A Model M will be heavier, and although you may think it won't be a problem, but the lightness of browns may be an additional help!
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: sordna on Tue, 30 August 2011, 22:46:33: I type all day too, for me the choice was clear: cherry MX red switches.
I use a very ergonomic board, but I like red switches on flat boards also. It's a lot of fun typing on an IBM, I have one of those too, but it's tiring by the end of the day.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: lucky777 on Tue, 30 August 2011, 23:47:44: I got 2 USB adapters for .50 each :S. They seem to work fine so far. Maybe I got lucky haha.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 30 August 2011, 23:55:14: Go take a look at the Pokers, you can get them cheap and the resale is nice if you don't like it. Also ps/2 is fine with a bluecube which can be internalized easily via how ripster did it. I don't have links as my iPod can't browse the forum and copy links (someone can help there). There is a poker group buy ending soon, otherwise the classifieds are a fine place to look
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Wed, 31 August 2011, 00:21:03: Wow! thank you to everyone for all your suggestions!

a ps2 / usb adapter (duh!) - I may just pick up one of the model M boards to try. I actually have an old sony vaio laptop that I type on often and I actually like it quite a bit. The key travel of the chicklet keyboard is not great and my fingers don't hurt from using it. I don't know what kind of switches it has, but i think the main thing for me is that it does not take very much effort to push the keys down. This Microsoft one... oh man... ouch!

Again, thank you all very much :)
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 31 August 2011, 01:00:52: I'm gonna qualify myself by saying, i built this
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10510
and i'm gonna finish this
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439&do=comments

so I basically love the ergonomics of the ms ergo4k, there are a few of us who are into ergonomic and mechanical, basically because, WE HAVE to.

Your in a bind, do you like the msergo4k because of the ergonomics? the split design? the inward slope? the nice wrist wrest? the decline? if you answered 50/50 to any of these, then i dont' know what to say, but you're stuck trying to find an ergonomic mechanical board.

as far as the msergo4k hurt? yea i believe if i remember the force to activate the switch was between maybe 60-90? i'm not too sure but it was "tough" do you want a mechanical board because the inherent ergonomics associated with the switches? such as low force? then i'm just gonna say splurge on a Kinesis and learn how to use it (it works differently).

i TRIED going to a regular 104 key, mechanical keyboard from the msergo 4k, i really did, for weeks, then it hit me, the switches were good, but the ergonomics SUCKED... i actually had to use the ms ergo 4k again, and that's ultimately when i decided i need to mod my own ms ergo 4k + cherry brown.

i'm not saying make you're own ms ergo 4k + cherry brown, i doubt anyone will, but i'm saying if you are used to "ergonomic" keyboard, and you want mechnical switches... just save yourself the trouble, research and opinions of others who DO NOT care for ergonomic keyboards and just get a Kinesis. I really wish that there was an alternative that was cheaper and you didn't have to "learn" it, but there really isn't so just get a kinesis, save yourself all the trouble of researching this crappy board, that kinda cheaper northgate, or maybe trying thin sissor switches... no just get a kinesis.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 31 August 2011, 08:57:39: Quote from: lucky777;407852
I got 2 USB adapters for .50 each :S. They seem to work fine so far. Maybe I got lucky haha.

Most likely they might be okay for typing but if you ever play any game for any reason through them, it will fail. Then there are also ones that cannot run a model m at all for whatever reason. OP, look at the usb converter wiki, I'd probably suggest a belkin or a blue cube.

Quote from: Lanx;407888
i'm not saying make you're own ms ergo 4k + cherry brown, i doubt anyone will, but i'm saying if you are used to "ergonomic" keyboard, and you want mechnical switches... just save yourself the trouble, research and opinions of others who DO NOT care for ergonomic keyboards and just get a Kinesis.

True enough I really don't care about that in general. There are others who have said they used to use ergo boards but switching to a standard layout mech board helped more than the ergonomic board did. The OP said he didn't really have a problem using his laptop board.

At the same time, a model m is not expensive to try and if he doesn't like it, it will give an extremely good indicator of where he wants to go from there. Compared to literally any regular current cherry board and therefore also things like the kinesis or topre.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Wed, 31 August 2011, 10:23:04: I checked out the Kenisis boards and the Freestyle looks promising. The fact that it is two different pieces is a bit strange, but I see that you can mount it on a base and get something similar to the ms4000 that I have now. The other one (the Advantage) looks just plain odd. It seems like you would have to poke forward for the top row keys which seems awkward. I did see that they had reviews from everybody and their brother saying how great it was.

One question I had was what kind of switches the freestyle has. I got this from their site:

"The Freestyle Solo utilizes a quiet, low-force, tactile membrane key switch. The typical average maximum key force of a switch is 45 grams. This is at least 25% less than most traditional and many ergonomic keyboards such as the Microsoft 4000 with maximum key forces of over 60 grams."

So 45g could me the cherry brown switches?

I am actually quite comfortable on the flat laptop keyboard, so for me, I think the problem is the force required to press the keys down, not the how my hands sit on the board.

I used an IBM model M keyboard for about a year back in about 1985 or so and I do remember the amazing feel of the keys clicking. So I may get one just for nostalgic reasons!

My wife has an older MS(natural maybe?) keyboard. It is significantly easier to type on than this MS 4000. She uses a PS2 to USB converter and has a problem where the keyboard just stops working every so often (about every few days) and she has to reboot to get going again. The mouse works fine, but the keyboard just stops So that has me a little leery of relying on a converter for full time use.

Finally, nobody has given any feedback specifically about the Ducky brand of keyboards one way or the other, so I am getting a ho-hum feeling about that. On other Posts, many gave it good reviews so my impression was that it was good quality. If anyone can speak to that specific brand, I would appreciate it.

As I am typing this the muscles in my forearms are getting tired already! Can't wait to make a purchase :)

Thank you all again for all your posts.

Oh, one other thing... I also have the dragon software which I used to do my last rough draft. It actually worked pretty well (I was surprised). But, there are many days when you just don't feel like talking. Also, I found that when I was using the keyboard it was a very natural flow of ideas and words. Whereas when talking, I really had to think about it. Also, there was a bit of lag, so I would speak a few words then have to backtrack or wait for it to catch up. I should be getting a new laptop with more horsepower soon so maybe that will fix some of the lag problem. But still no replacement for a keyboard. And I don't think my wife appreciates me being in my office blabbing on in the middle of the night while she is trying to sleep!

:)
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: Vocroth on Wed, 31 August 2011, 10:26:32: red switch might be good choice, it's need really low acutation power
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 31 August 2011, 10:38:04: Quote from: frodeflintstone;408057
Oh, one other thing... I also have the dragon software which I used to do my last rough draft. It actually worked pretty well (I was surprised). But, there are many days when you just don't feel like talking. Also, I found that when I was using the keyboard it was a very natural flow of ideas and words. Whereas when talking, I really had to think about it. Also, there was a bit of lag, so I would speak a few words then have to backtrack or wait for it to catch up. I should be getting a new laptop with more horsepower soon so maybe that will fix some of the lag problem. But still no replacement for a keyboard. And I don't think my wife appreciates me being in my office blabbing on in the middle of the night while she is trying to sleep!

:)
that's because you're probably worried about "talking like dragon" where your talking at a speed and in a way that dragon will recognize you, it basically stops free-form thought, for instance i would be talking then i know at the end i'll have to just say "period", "new paragraph" that just stops the flow, if you really want to try it, get a voice recorder any certified olympus will do, doesn't really matter, especially if you have dragon 11, the engine can pick up almost anything now.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Wed, 31 August 2011, 10:44:02: You mean just talk into the recorder then have it "translate"...

That is very interesting. Definitely not something I had considered.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 31 August 2011, 10:48:12: yes it's a regular component of dragon, you do have to train it though, and get a decent voice recorder, don't get any old jalope for obvious reasons, see their approved list, i do it all the time when i walk my dog.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: Saturn on Wed, 31 August 2011, 12:22:32: Quote from: frodeflintstone;407868
I may just pick up one of the model M boards to try.

Model M's are quite loud. We used to have them at one of the little places I worked before because our boss had a fascination with them, but they'd be one of the worst choices if need something relatively quiet.

They are a lot of fun to type on, though.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 31 August 2011, 12:24:55: Cherry browns. Your fingers will love you.

This comes from a guy who types all day - look at my post count. Oh, wait...
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 31 August 2011, 12:31:48: Well played.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: kohtachi on Wed, 31 August 2011, 12:34:20: what happen to the post count?
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 31 August 2011, 12:39:00: It's available when you click on the profile. It was taken out for moderation reasons.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: jpc on Wed, 31 August 2011, 12:58:23: Kinesis Contoured, available in browns or reds.

It will force you to touch type. Highly recommended.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: Saturn on Wed, 31 August 2011, 12:59:39: In conclusion, rubber dome
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Wed, 31 August 2011, 13:22:14: So after reviewing everyone's posts and after reading as much as I could on this forum (yes, including Ripster's sig link, which caused my brain to explode - but I say, I say, I keep my brain matter numbered for just such an occasion), I have decided to go ahead with the cherry browns. You gotta start somewhere. I decided to get the Ducky one I was leaning towards at the beginning of this post since it is just $100 and in stock.

It should be here early next week. I will reply back with my findings - not that all the keyboard addicts here even need my opinion :)

Oh, and I am also going to get a model M just for fun.

Thank you everyone again for your help! What a great forum.

FF
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 31 August 2011, 13:30:34: Just do what the old-timers do. Buy them all and pick your favorite.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Wed, 31 August 2011, 14:01:26: I read Ripster's review of the filco with cherry browns + other reviews that compared the filco and the ducky. They seemed to be fairly similar but better quality than the das keyboard with the same switches. I also see that itlnstln has a ducky so hopefully I made a good choice :)
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 31 August 2011, 14:18:19: Quote from: frodeflintstone;408197
I read Ripster's review of the filco with cherry browns + other reviews that compared the filco and the ducky. They seemed to be fairly similar but better quality than the das keyboard with the same switches. I also see that itlnstln has a ducky so hopefully I made a good choice :)

Which Ducky did you get? A 9xxx series, I hope. My G2, while a little more than $100, is very nice. The OCN one I have (9008) is nice, too, but I'm a little skeptical on the laser/pad print legends. While it still looks new, I have a feeling those legends aren't going to last.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Wed, 31 August 2011, 14:51:40: The one I got was the Ducky DK1087-B. I really like the tenkeyless design because for me, having the mouse closer in is better. Amazon did have the DK9000G2-B available, but it has the number pad. Aside from the number pad, is there a difference between the two? The listings on Amazon don't give much detail.

EDIT:
Here are the links:

tenkeyless:
http://www.amazon.com/Ducky-DK1087-B-Mechanical-Keyboard-Switches/dp/B005HIM0NK/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_3

and

DK9000G2:
http://www.amazon.com/Ducky-DK9000G2-B-Mechanical-Keyboard-Switches/dp/B005HIOPQA/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_2
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 31 August 2011, 15:49:30: I heard they were supposed to be redesigned, but the 1087 had some QC issues (cracked cases, from what I remember). I'm not sure if the redesigned ones are on the market yet.

Essentially, Ducky has two quality tiers: the 9xxx series and the 1xxx series. The 9xxx line is on par with Filco, Leopold, et. al. The 1xxx series is their "value" line. From my experience, pretty much all plate-mounted Cherry 'boards feel pretty much alike. What you might find is that the key caps may not be as nice (ABS vs. PBT) or the styling not as pretty. Barring any QC issues, though, it should be just fine. Keep in mind, I don't own a 1xxx series 'board, so I don't have any specifics. The good thing is that you bought it through Amazon, so if you do have a problem, you shouldn't have too much trouble RMAing it.

This is one of the Duckys I have. (http://global.pchome.com.tw/DCAH0X-A53914259) Perusing through PCHome, I see some new 1087s (http://global.pchome.com.tw/DCAH0X-A57642101), so maybe they did redesign them.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Wed, 31 August 2011, 16:03:17: That looks like the same box as the one that I am supposed to be getting:

http://tigerimports.net/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=9666

Here is the reseller's website:

I would happily change to the 9x series as they have not yet shipped it. The only reason for not switching was because of the number keypad.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Wed, 31 August 2011, 17:23:10: For what its worth, I just confirmed with the reseller that the only difference between the two ducky boards (DK1087 vs 9000G2) is that the 1087 has the 6 key limitation, where as the 9000G2 does not - it has full No Key Rollover (even though it is USB). The build quality is apparently identical (sans 10 key pad). I type fast, but I don't think I type fast enough for this to be a problem. Can anyone else comment on this? I don't play games (much anymore).

Thank you!!

FF
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 31 August 2011, 18:22:35: Sounds good. Glad you were able to get some clarification.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: sordna on Wed, 31 August 2011, 18:33:27: Quote from: frodeflintstone;408331
I type fast, but I don't think I type fast enough for this to be a problem. Can anyone else comment on this?

You don't need NKRO regardless how fast you type. You only need it for certain games, or if you want to play the piano or something with your keyboard and do complex chords ... still you probably won't be able to hold more than 10 keys down at the same time :-)
NKRO is a much overrated feature IMO, some of the most highly rated keyboards (old IBMs) are 2KRO and people type on them plenty fast.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 31 August 2011, 21:43:46: You wouldn't need to worry about the usb converter being the main thing. I have a couple of keyboards that I have never used without the converter, and they all work perfectly. But that's why I mentioned a couple specifically as ones that are known to work exactly as they should. Most that you could just go into a store and buy won't.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 06 September 2011, 10:18:01: Well, my new Ducky just arrived today. It is definitely louder than my MS 4000. It appears that when the keys return to the up position they click ?(which is not bad). Overall, the switches are very nice to type on. The only thing that is very strange is that the space bar, shift keys, enter key, and backspace all "feel" different than the rest of the keys. The space bar is really throwing me off. It is so much more difficult to push down. I suppose I will get used to it. I am 100% certain that the brown switches were the right ones for me. They are nice and easy to push and the feel is very nice. It almost feels effortless to type, except when I have to push the space bar... very strange.

I just pulled off the space bar and the switch color is black.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who posted.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 September 2011, 10:22:59: Quote from: frodeflintstone;411354
Well, my new Ducky just arrived today. It is definitely louder than my MS 4000. It appears that when the keys return to the up position they click ?(which is not bad). Overall, the switches are very nice to type on. The only thing that is very strange is that the space bar, shift keys, enter key, and backspace all "feel" different than the rest of the keys. The space bar is really throwing me off. It is so much more difficult to push down. I suppose I will get used to it. I am 100% certain that the brown switches were the right ones for me. They are nice and easy to push and the feel is very nice. It almost feels effortless to type, except when I have to push the space bar... very strange.

I just pulled off the space bar and the switch color is black.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who posted.

You might be seeing the stabilizer and not necessarily the switch. Ducky (and Leopold) use the Cherry-style stabilizers that many find "mushy" or difficult to press on plate-mounted 'boards (they feel fine on PCB-mounted 'boards, IMO). I, personally, don't find them that offensive, but they do change the feel in an undesirable way. There's not really anything you can do about it, but there is a thread about swapping those stabilizers with the Filco-style. IIRC, you would need the stabilizers and you would have to mod the metal plate the switches are mounted on. I wouldn't spend time on it, but if it's something that really bothers you, it might be something to look into.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: sordna on Tue, 06 September 2011, 10:31:09: I found that cherry stabilized keys feel like having o-rings on them. On my Poker, I put o-rings on all keys except the stabilized ones, and the feel became totally uniform. It quiets down the keyboard too.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: N8N on Tue, 06 September 2011, 10:43:14: Quote from: lucky777;407807
ps/2 to usb adapters are like 75 cents on ebay...

Anyways I think blues, reds, topres and browns are nice to type on. I haven't tried a model M (or I have but it was at least 2 decades ago, so I wouldn't remember), but I hear they're somewhat like White Alps and those take too much force to use (imo).

be aware that the Model M tends to be somewhat finicky about the USB adapter used with it. For a laptop I would recommend the Belkin one referenced in the wikis somewhere (there's a thread in the wiki section about PS/2 to USB adapters) over the blue cube for space reasons although either would work. The ZioTek adapter also works, albeit with some weirdness about the pause/break key.

Personally I find Cherry Clears to be the best switch *for me* for all day typing, but I do apparently have a heavier touch than some. If that's not an issue for you I find blues to be nice and tactile, although the click is annoying. (but a Model M is even louder, although for some reason I don't mind its sound as much.) Browns I find OK but too light (may not be an issue for you) and they don't have as pronounced a tactile bump as the clears. "Ergo clears" are nice for a light typist but involve modifications so they may not be for you.

So I guess go for blues if you don't mind the noise, or browns if you think that would be a problem.

Since you say "type" I didn't suggest any linear switches because conventional wisdom seems to be tactile for typing and linear for gaming, although there have been boards made that are obviously not gamer-oriented with linear switches (e.g. I have a Cherry board that was apparently intended for a rack mount server application that has blacks... go figure.)
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: N8N on Tue, 06 September 2011, 10:51:21: Quote from: frodeflintstone;411354
Well, my new Ducky just arrived today. It is definitely louder than my MS 4000. It appears that when the keys return to the up position they click ?(which is not bad). Overall, the switches are very nice to type on. The only thing that is very strange is that the space bar, shift keys, enter key, and backspace all "feel" different than the rest of the keys. The space bar is really throwing me off. It is so much more difficult to push down. I suppose I will get used to it. I am 100% certain that the brown switches were the right ones for me. They are nice and easy to push and the feel is very nice. It almost feels effortless to type, except when I have to push the space bar... very strange.

I just pulled off the space bar and the switch color is black.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who posted.

Cherry Corp. tends to put a heavier switch in for the space bar. I find that to be preferable, although apparently a lot of people don't. I have never actually handled a Ducky keyboard, but I can tell you that Filco, WASD, and Noppoo use the same switch for the space bar that they use for the rest of the keys. I actually found that kind of annoying, as I found myself bottoming out the space bar all the time. I modified my Filco to Cherry MX clear switches, and when I did so I used the grey (like a clear, but with a heavier spring) switch from the donor Cherry Corp. board. I found that to be an improvement, but you may not agree!

As for the keys feeling different, it sounds like those are all the keys with the stabilizers. I think that the Ducky is supposed to use Cherry style stablizers as opposed to the Costars that most other non-Cherry keyboards use w/ Cherry switches. Maybe a little lube on the stabilizers is in order? Not sure what the official recommendation is there; on the Costar stabilizers usually white lithium grease is recommended.

hope you're enjoying your new board...
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 September 2011, 10:57:53: Quote from: N8N;411378
Cherry Corp. tends to put a heavier switch in for the space bar. I find that to be preferable, although apparently a lot of people don't. I have never actually handled a Ducky keyboard, but I can tell you that Filco, WASD, and Noppoo use the same switch for the space bar that they use for the rest of the keys. I actually found that kind of annoying, as I found myself bottoming out the space bar all the time. I modified my Filco to Cherry MX clear switches, and when I did so I used the grey (like a clear, but with a heavier spring) switch from the donor Cherry Corp. board. I found that to be an improvement, but you may not agree!

As for the keys feeling different, it sounds like those are all the keys with the stabilizers. I think that the Ducky is supposed to use Cherry style stablizers as opposed to the Costars that most other non-Cherry keyboards use w/ Cherry switches. Maybe a little lube on the stabilizers is in order? Not sure what the official recommendation is there; on the Costar stabilizers usually white lithium grease is recommended.

hope you're enjoying your new board...

Both my Duckys have uniform switches (brown) in the Spacebar. Without any science behind this, what I think is happening is that the wire in the Cherry-Style stabilizers doesn't have quite the range-of-movement in a plate-mounted 'board that they do on a Cherry Corp., PCB-mounted 'board. I compared a Cherry 'board with one of my Duckys, and the Ducky was noticeably stiffer than the Cherry. Either that, or Leopold, Ducky, et. al. are using some inferior clone of the Cherry stabilizer that just doesn't feel as nice.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 06 September 2011, 11:57:24: @itlnstln - How can you tell if the switches in the space bar are browns? I pulled off the cap, and they appeared to be black.

Getting used to the space bar a bit more as the day has progressed, so maybe I will feel differently about it tomorrow. Overall, the build quality is very high IMHO and I am quite happy with it.

FF
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: jpc on Tue, 06 September 2011, 12:05:29: FF: I'm not a fan of extra-heavy space bars either.

If I had such a board, I'd warm up my soldering iron to swap the switch beneath the space bar with the one beneath the Pause key.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 September 2011, 12:07:25: Quote from: frodeflintstone;411428
@itlnstln - How can you tell if the switches in the space bar are browns? I pulled off the cap, and they appeared to be black.

Getting used to the space bar a bit more as the day has progressed, so maybe I will feel differently about it tomorrow. Overall, the build quality is very high IMHO and I am quite happy with it.

FF

There's only one switch, it should be right in the middle. The other two "switches" are the supports for the stabilizer and they have black stems (they should in no way, however, be associated with black switches). The spacebar's switch might be black depending on what switches your 'board has, but I would guess that if you have browns or blues in your 'board, the actual switch for the spacebar is the same. Both of mine have browns with a brown switch for the spacebar.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 06 September 2011, 12:36:50: How difficult would it be to swap switches? Is there a tutorial?
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: N8N on Tue, 06 September 2011, 13:17:24: Quote from: itlnstln;411437
There's only one switch, it should be right in the middle. The other two "switches" are the supports for the stabilizer and they have black stems (they should in no way, however, be associated with black switches). The spacebar's switch might be black depending on what switches your 'board has, but I would guess that if you have browns or blues in your 'board, the actual switch for the spacebar is the same. Both of mine have browns with a brown switch for the spacebar.

If they're following the Cherry Corp. pattern, a browns board would have a grey space bar switch (which I think sucks; the grey is a good match for clears, but is too heavy with browns - IMHO a browns board should have a clear space bar) or a green switch with blues.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 September 2011, 13:26:15: Quote from: N8N;411488
If they're following the Cherry Corp. pattern, a browns board would have a grey space bar switch (which I think sucks; the grey is a good match for clears, but is too heavy with browns - IMHO a browns board should have a clear space bar) or a green switch with blues.

I think only Cherry follows their pattern. Although, both my G80-3000 and G80-1863 had browns for the spacebar, too.

Quote from: ripster;411492
You SURE about that Black MX spacebar thing?
Show Image
(http://team-ke.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/DSCF7171.jpg)

This is what mine look like. The two black stems on the spacebar and other stabilized keys are the stabilizer supports, not switches.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: arplod on Tue, 06 September 2011, 13:44:45: Personally it's a scissor for me in terms of typing all day, although some of the other guys I work with like the Topres enough... but generally speaking, there's been enough apathy and also 'it's uncomfortable' complaints about the Filcos and Topres to start me thinking that I might have thrown several thou down the plughole.

Even in terms of the stuff I bought for personal use at home, I'm also going though a bunch of mice recently so I was thinking my wrist pain was a result of having to acclimatise to several mice, but it didn't explain the other hand - so I decided as a control to switch back to alternating between the Logitech Illuminated and Sidewinder X6. Wrist pain went away in just over a day from using the Topre as my primary keyboard.

So while the nerds here get over-involved with keyswitches, as shrap correctly alludes to it's how well the entire keyboard works for you. Ergonomically none of the generally available mechanicals are anything special. If a regular keyboard is going to cause you issues, it's just as likely to cause issues while using a Filco, Deck, Topre, etc.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 06 September 2011, 13:45:56: Mine definitely does not look like that. The one under the space bar is either black or grey. It is not brown. And it still feels strange. Are there any other (currently available) 10KL boards, in black that would have a brown space bar switch? The Filcos were not available.

EDIT: After looking at the Mod guide, I don't think I am quite prepared to dig into a brand new board.

FF
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 September 2011, 13:51:42: Quote from: frodeflintstone;411503
Mine definitely does not look like that. The one under the space bar is either black or grey. It is not brown. And it still feels strange. Are there any other (currently available) 10KL boards, in black that would have a brown space bar switch? The Filcos were not available.

EDIT: After looking at the Mod guide, I don't think I am quite prepared to dig into a brand new board.

FF

The Leopolds from Elitekeyboards would fit the bill (no pun intended).
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 06 September 2011, 13:56:13: I will check those out. The Ducky was not well... ducky.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 06 September 2011, 13:56:44: (that was for ripster :)
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 September 2011, 13:57:09: Do you have a link to the one you bought? That's the first I've heard of a switch layout like that.

EDIT: If you bought this one (http://www.amazon.com/Ducky-DK1087-B-Mechanical-Keyboard-Switches/dp/B005HIM0NK/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_3?tag=5336432816-20), then it's supposed to have black switches. What you feeling other than the switch are the stabilizers. The Leopold has the same stabilizers, so I would hold out for the Filcos if you're not happy with them. Otherwise, you can look for a Ducky with Cherry browns.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 06 September 2011, 14:32:19: I bought the one with the brown switches. I removed 4 other random keys and they are all in fact brown. It is just the space bar that is different. I even pulled off the backspace key (because it felt a little more stiff as well. It has a brown switch too, but has the two small grayish buffer things on either side. This is the one I bought:

http://tigerimports.net/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=9666 (http://tigerimports.net/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=9666)
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 September 2011, 14:39:14: Very strange. It might be why they're on sale.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 06 September 2011, 14:59:00: I just called them. They guy told me that all the duckys have a different switch for the space bar, including all the models they sell: 9x and both 1x series. So go figure. At least they have a 30 return policy.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 06 September 2011, 15:01:42: Return it and get something different. They seem shady. I have 2 Duckys and neither have this problem. If you want another Ducky, I would order from PCHome (see the WW Buying Links in the Wiki). Otherwise, I would go with a Leopold from Elitekeyboards.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: crazing on Thu, 08 September 2011, 18:08:45: Quote from: itlnstln;411568
If you want another Ducky, I would order from PCHome (see the WW Buying Links in the Wiki).
The first time I checked out that part of the wiki, my eyes were too lazy to notice the buying guide. But it'd be super useful and important, cause a Google translate isn't enough to work with the site, so definitely check it out.

I'd try to raise one more fuss before returning it though, and see if you can't get a replacement with a guaranteed brown space. One of the benefits of a small business is supposed to be customer service.

....Also, assuming you got it from tankguys, I'm tentatively planning on getting a Shine through them so I'd like it if you ended up with some good news story about their service out of this.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 13 September 2011, 12:33:33: I am happy to report that my new Leopold keyboard just arrived from Elite Keyboards and I am very happy with it. The packaging was not as nice (plain brown box, no key puller), but the keyboard itself feels much better. The space bar feels just like all the rest of the keys and overall I think it feels more "stable". I didn't really notice when I was typing on the ducky, but there was a bit of give. I don't know if I am describing it correctly, but with this new keyboard, it feels like just the keys are moving, whereas with the ducky, it felt like there was a bit of give on the keyboard as a whole with each keypress.

Anyway, I am very excited and satisfied with my purchase.

I did notice that Elite keyboards is a bit militant about their returns policy (there is none unless it is broken). I guess that is to be expected for something that many would like to just try and return. I am just glad that this one is working out.

Thank you everyone for all your helpful posts!

FF
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: frodeflintstone on Tue, 13 September 2011, 17:55:38: I am still just thrilled with the way this keyboard feels. There really is a big difference between this one and the ducky that I just returned. This one just feels so much more stable and solid. Its like the keys are the only think that is moving and the board itself rock solid. For me the effect is that the mechanical keys feel so much more, well, mechanical. On the other board there was a difference between my MS4000 for sure, but they still felt a but mushy. These are very smooth and it is really a pleasure typing on them.

...for what it's worth.

FF
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: Lanx on Tue, 13 September 2011, 23:48:56: ms ergo 4k keys feel damn tough after using cherry browns for a long time. You'll soon see that WOW there's a lot of force needed to acuate.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: F u r u y á on Wed, 14 September 2011, 03:23:17: Quote from: Lanx;415854
ms ergo 4k keys feel damn tough after using cherry browns for a long time. You'll soon see that WOW there's a lot of force needed to acuate.

Yesterday I tested one single ergo clear. omg that's not a bump, that's a real snap of infinite force! (I'm coming from browns too)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Furuyah/ErgoClears/DSC08396.jpg)

I'm afraid of that amount of tactility. So first I tried the lower profile Cherry PBT in my Filco.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Furuyah/Filco/IMG_0714.jpg)

Later I will finish cleaning the case and the PCB and finally switch all swicthes if you know what I mean.
Title: Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)
Post by: czarek on Wed, 14 September 2011, 03:38:41: I'd say best for typing all day is either Model F if you can stand the layout or bolt modded Model M with Unicomp springs (just as light, but not as smooth as Model F)