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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: kwantz on Wed, 31 August 2011, 22:16:50

Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: kwantz on Wed, 31 August 2011, 22:16:50: What switch is believed to be the most durable switch? I mean durable as in which switch over years of wear and tear would come out to be the longest lasting?
I know there are the tried and true switches that have been around forever now. But what about the newer switches, do you think they will be able to outlast the old school switches?
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: Pylon on Wed, 31 August 2011, 22:40:18: I'm pretty sure capacitive buckling springs, or maybe Topre.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 31 August 2011, 22:53:25: There is no way anything recent would outlast something from back then. They simply spent much more on keyboards back in the 80s. But specifically switches and not necessarily the boards themselves it would have to be buckling springs. I don't think anything else can come close. There are people who have been typing on their exact same boards since the day they bought them when the computers that came with them came out in the 80s.

I think topres only get a mention because if you take 'lasting' to mean 'still actuates' I can see how capacitive would win over a membrane; or perhaps even direct contact like cherry switches. I've never typed on one and have no idea how the rubber part of them would hold up over the scale of time we're talking about.

ALPS probably wouldn't be pleasant assuming all allegations about them are correct instead of assuming that generally the owners of those boards before we get them used (that suck) are just terrible people.

Expanding out to not just include regular buyable keyboards, probably the hall effect ones. Should outlast buckling springs, since that's why they exist. I think we're now talking to the point where none of us will care. Unless living forever happens first, but that's a whole other discussion.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: Arc'xer on Wed, 31 August 2011, 23:10:45: You can also put in hall-effect(magnetic) switches up there as well like Topre, Buckling Spring, and Beam spring(Capacitive) in durability.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Wed, 31 August 2011, 23:11:42: Buckling spring switches of all kinds are tried-and-true.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: ZeDestructor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 01:37:54: How about the different Cherry switches? would think the blacks and reds would have some pretty good durability if the base keyboard is upto scratch..
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: hella on Thu, 01 September 2011, 01:42:41: Buckling spring & topre switches.

Topre are better for chemical resistance as the rubber dome fully covers the capacitative switch. It's more environmentally resillient than the buckling spring, especially if you work in a toxic place, or even a rough environment like a Tabasco factory, which has vinegar fumes in the air everywhere which would easily oxidize any metal components.

Buckling springs will last longer under most conditions. Capacitative switches, by nature fire to anything that touches that is electrically conductive. If certain foreign particles get under the bubble (i.e. when the rubber dome breaks) it'll easily accidentally fire.

The membrane sheet on buckling springs will outlast the rubber domes on topres with normal use. Of course you will find some bad apples for both here and there but
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: Tony on Thu, 01 September 2011, 02:24:05: I am using a Compaq MX 11800 dated 1987 or so at home and it's still working perfectly. All other modern mechanical keyboards are that durable, most of them are killed a bit prematurely by orange juice or coffee.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 03:30:59: Quote from: kwantz;408475
What switch is believed to be the most durable switch? I mean durable as in which switch over years of wear and tear would come out to be the longest lasting?
I know there are the tried and true switches that have been around forever now. But what about the newer switches, do you think they will be able to outlast the old school switches?

Aside the (electronic sensors like the capacitive or hall effect ones) the most reliable and durable electrical switches are the reed relays (aka reed contacts/reed switches).

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Reed_switch_(aka).jpg)

They are actuated magnetically, and are working in an oxygen free atmosphere. They are also independent from the mechanical actuation force.

So even the cheapest ones are rated for more than 10M of operations.

They emit also a nice subtle click when actuated.

It's just incredible that there isn't a commercial keyboard based on them.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 03:38:34: Individual switches have a lot going for them by being replaceable. If the membrane on a IBM Model M is broken (from a spillage, spark or other), then you will have to get an entirely new keyboard. If a Cherry MX switch is broken, then you can replace it (or parts of it) from the numeric key pad.

What I think is the worst thing with Cherry switches is that the bumps on the sliders are slowly ground down with use and the tactile feel diminishes. From what I have read so far, I get the feeling that the more tactile the switch, the faster this happens.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 03:43:37: Quote from: Findecanor;408587
Individual switches have a lot going for them by being replaceable. If the membrane on a IBM Model M is broken, you will have to get an entirely new keyboard.

If the membrane on a model M is broken you have to order one and replace it.

The practice is uncommon on mainstream RD just because the whole keyboard cost less than the repair.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: fossala on Thu, 01 September 2011, 04:00:45: Why are people saying topre? I thought they have 30 million presses where as cherry has 50 million.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 04:06:22: Quote from: fossala;408600
Why are people saying topre? I thought they have 30 million presses where as cherry has 50 million.

The cherry data are clearly overrated, but even a topre will likely become unusable well before the 30M of keystrokes, because the friction and the dome mushiness.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: woody on Thu, 01 September 2011, 04:11:18: Quote from: The Solutor;408583
Aside the (electronic sensors like the capacitive or hall effect ones) the most reliable and durable electrical switches are the reed relays (aka reed contacts/reed switches).

Show Image
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Reed_switch_(aka).jpg)
I had good mileage (read: few years) on keyboard with such switches. Funny thing is I had to repair one key, IIRC the reed contact needed replacement.
Had a nice subtle click.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: Izza on Thu, 01 September 2011, 04:12:15: Quote from: The Solutor;408583
*stuff about reed switches*

Someone should do it. I would think modifying a foam and foil board would be the easiest to start with. Could replace the foam/foil with magnets.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 04:22:15: Quote from: woody;408608
Funny thing is I had to repair one key

Statistic works against any discrete switch, no matter how god they are, when you have 100+ of them you have more failure probability than when you have to deal with a mambrane which is a single piece.

Exactly as happen elsewhere.

A jbod array made with six expensive HDDs, is more failure prone than a single cheap HDD.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 04:25:20: Quote from: Izza;408611
Someone should do it. I would think modifying a foam and foil board would be the easiest to start with. Could replace the foam/foil with magnets.

Sooner or later I'll do it.

The main problem (aside the laziness :lol:) is the cost for an hobbyst.

A company buy them in quantities and will pay them few cents per switch, a single user have to spend way more money.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: elef on Thu, 01 September 2011, 04:34:42: I hardly think that the rubber domes in a topre can last anywhere near as long as a Model M. Rubber ages. After ten years and/or X million keypresses, it's going to deteriorate and/or die.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 04:49:17: Quote from: elef;408622
I hardly think that the rubber domes in a topre can last anywhere near as long as a Model M. Rubber ages. After ten years and/or X million keypresses, it's going to deteriorate and/or die.

I think no one here has tested a topre board for enough time to give a decent reply.

BTW the Olivetti boards contemporary to the model Ms are as durable, if not more durable, as the IBM ones.

All depends on the plastic choose, the tolerances, and in the effectiveness of the sleeve/plunger/stem/dome design
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: ZeDestructor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 05:11:55: Well, I guess we're on the forefront on testing that then :P

Any IBM Model M users care to say how long they've had theirs in active service?

Model M fans/enthusiasts/owners: Where can I get a membrane for an IBM Model M2? I have one lying around at home that has dead circuitry and quite corroded membrane (yay humidity) :(
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 05:27:29: Quote from: ZeDestructor;408630
Where can I get a membrane for an IBM Model M2? I have one lying around at home that has dead circuitry and quite corroded membrane (yay humidity) :(

Send a PM to ASCAII, maybe he have some donor board left.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 01 September 2011, 15:20:57: Honeywell Microswitch (Hall Effect)

I have a bunch of magnetic reed keyboard switches, at least one of them was DOA. Mind you they are quite old (new old stock).
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 01 September 2011, 15:21:51: Quote from: HaaTa;408963
Honeywell Microswitch (Hall Effect)

I have a bunch of magnetic reed keyboard switches, at least one of them was DOA. Mind you they are quite old (new old stock).

How do those Hall Effect switches feel?
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: tribbe on Thu, 01 September 2011, 19:02:22: Are there any experiences how long it takes to grind down blue/brown/... cherry bumps/stems until the tactility gets almost lost? Let's base the assumptions on the example of an average usage, e.g. playing some games, typing some pages per day: a few months, a couple of years, some more years of normal use?

Thx guys.

Btw. ripster & soluter - I was following you here (and on ocn & deskthority). You guys are awesome in your own ways.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: tribbe on Thu, 01 September 2011, 19:03:25: Are there any experiences how long it takes to grind down blue/brown/... cherry bumps/stems until the tactility gets almost lost? Let's base the assumptions on the example of an average usage, e.g. playing some games, typing some pages per day.
A few months, a couple of years, some more years of normal use?

Thx guys.

Btw. ripster & soluter - I was following you here (and on ocn & deskthority). You guys are awesome in your own ways.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 19:14:48: Quote from: tribbe;409050
Are there any experiences how long it takes to grind down blue/brown/... cherry bumps/stems until the tactility gets almost lost?

I believe GH is not the better place to ask this question as most of the users are used to rotate many keyboards, btw I think that you loose a noticeable part of the tactility on the first months of usage, the it will decrease slowly in some years.

Quote
You guys are awesome in your own ways.

Yes he speak a better English, I have a better brain :lol:. I've purposed a joint venture but he still haven't replied.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: tribbe on Thu, 01 September 2011, 19:18:56: Quote from: ripster;409054
I am definitely more awesome than The Solutor.

My answers are correct.

And the tactility getting "lost" is a silly measure. It never goes linear. Even a blue Cherry MX feels a bit different in a week of use after the box is opened.

Thank you.

I'd never question that. I'm also very impressed with the work you've done here (esp. wiki). I'd consider myself a fan of yours. ^^

One week's very fast, though. At least there are some keys almost unused on most keyboards - so there will always be 1-2 keys that won't change their tactility for reasons concerning later comparision to feel the difference sometimes.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: tribbe on Thu, 01 September 2011, 19:24:21: Quote from: The Solutor;409057
I believe GH is not the better place to ask this question as most of the users are used to rotate many keyboards, btw I think that you loose a noticeable part of the tactility on the first months of usage, the it will decrease slowly in some years.

Yes he speak a better English, I have a better brain :lol:. I've purposed a joint venture but he still haven't replied.

Thanks for the insight. I appreciate it very much. Let's hope ripster's still considering a joint venture. But I think you would have to accept that ripster would like to be the "primus inter pares".

Quote from: ripster;409065
Back in the Day I had fans and lego lovers.

Now they are all at OCN.

1 week is enough to break in a Blue Cherry usually.

I type a lot though. Click on my Avatar Profile to see my post count.

That's sad @ changing times & OCN. I got an impression reading hundreds of threads here and there. Is there any recap about the issues that lead to that migration etc.? Btw. I liked the Lego I saw.

Thanks again for the impression on the "decay" of the switch. Yah you're some sick typist, baller.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 19:29:58: Quote from: tribbe;409066
But I think you would have to accept that ripster would like to be the "primus inter pares".

Yes we have a joke where Berlusconi did the same with God.... :D
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 01 September 2011, 19:32:01: Quote from: ripster;409068
Time to change my Avatar descriptors from Italian to Greek!

To do a god job you should move to a nation not discovered by an Italian, not named after another Italian, and possibly in a city not named after a third Italian :D

Edit: You should also remember that "primus inter pares" is a sentence that came from Italy too
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: tribbe on Thu, 01 September 2011, 19:41:36: That's the stuff that my geek-chuckles are made of.

♥ u both, for real.

Don't fight back.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: HaaTa on Fri, 02 September 2011, 01:15:24: Quote from: itlnstln;408964
How do those Hall Effect switches feel?

Very linear, smoothest I've ever tried. MX Blacks seem like they have sand-paper on the keystems in comparison.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 02 September 2011, 02:37:30: Quote from: The Solutor;408583
It's just incredible that there isn't a commercial keyboard based on them.

I believe there were some back in the late 60s/early 70s. Also photoelectric and piezoelectric ones. The market eventually favored capacitive and metal contact switches instead though.

Quote from: tribbe;409050
Are there any experiences how long it takes to grind down blue/brown/... cherry bumps/stems until the tactility gets almost lost? Let's base the assumptions on the example of an average usage, e.g. playing some games, typing some pages per day: a few months, a couple of years, some more years of normal use?

I have two 10+ year old Blue Cherry boards that feel very different to what a new Blue Cherry board feels like. It hasn't gone linear, but it feels pretty crap compared to what they should feel like.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Fri, 02 September 2011, 09:02:12: Well that tells me that space invaders retain their feel more. Mine all have AT plugs, and it's clear they were used for quite some time. But how much is impossible for me to say.
Title: Most Duarable switch.
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 02 September 2011, 09:18:19: Quote from: HaaTa;409193
Very linear, smoothest I've ever tried. MX Blacks seem like they have sand-paper on the keystems in comparison.

On the Honeywell site there is an interesting section about microswitches (and sensors)

http://sensing.honeywell.com/1/4/6/5/6/7/index1.shtml