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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: cnt on Sat, 03 September 2011, 11:59:43
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Hello,
I'll be soon upgrading to a 1920*1080 and seeing how my IMO is already noticeably slow on my 1366*768 laptop, I'm concerned that it would be too slow to remain comfortable. Therefore, I'm looking for a viable replacement mouse which has the same pros the IMO has and hopefully little to no cons, much like the IMO itself which other than its 400dpi sensor is close to perfect.
I'll be using the mouse mostly for office work and gaming. I play World of Warcraft, Quake Live, Challenger Pro Mode Arena (Quake 3 mod) and StarCraft: Broodwar and require a mouse which has no input correction, is light-weight and would last me a few good years.
Mice I've tried in the past and found to be inferior to the Intellimouse Optical:
Logitech MX500
Logitech MX510
Logitech MX518
Logitech G5
Razer Copperhead
Razer DeathAdder
Razer Naga
Intellimouse Explorer 4.0
Browsing the known input device companies' websites and reading reviews of their new models, companies don't seem to be producing quality mice anymore.
Are they any alternatives I'm unaware of?
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I have a Logitech G500. It's really quite nice. I don't know if it's your cup of tea though. I think I've used an intellimouse once, and I actually didn't really care for it. The G500 fits my hand well and has well placed buttons, so it works for me. Also, the hyperscroll feature (or whatever it's called) is absolutely wonderful. It sounds like something you won't ever use, but you find that you will far more often than you think.
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I've found, properly configured, the Steelseries Xai performs quite well and I do not detect any acceleration on a hard mouse pad. Another bonus is the form factor is very similar to your Intellimouse Optical so will take little adjustment.
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Quarzac:
Are the new Logitech models plagued with the same input correction the previous generations had? (MX500/510/518, G5)
Logitech have a comfortable shape and feel quite solid, but the input correction is a definite deal breaker for me.
Chobopants:
How long have you had the Xai? Shape seems similiar indeed, I'll look into some reviews tomorrow.
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Quarzac:
Are the new Logitech models plagued with the same input correction the previous generations had? (MX500/510/518, G5)
Logitech have a comfortable shape and feel quite solid, but the input correction is a definite deal breaker for me.
Chobopants:
How long have you had the Xai? Shape seems similiar indeed, I'll look into some reviews tomorrow.
Two weeks now and over 20 games of Starcraft 2 played on it (would be more but I've been doing 80+ hour work weeks). I seriously love this mouse and will be buying a second one for work, I already sold off one of my Razers to a coworker. The 5% acceleration fears are unfounded...I've found.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6195/6110145554_5c210d3c1a_z.jpg)
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I am curious as to what you mean by your IMO being "too slow"? Do you mean the dpi is too low? I play a lot of quake live and I have always loved my IMO to the point where I bought a few spares at micro center just because they were cheap.
Since the Xai looks similar, I want to know why I should get one!
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I am curious as to what you mean by your IMO being "too slow"? Do you mean the dpi is too low? I play a lot of quake live and I have always loved my IMO to the point where I bought a few spares at micro center just because they were cheap.
Since the Xai looks similar, I want to know why I should get one!
If you're a super low DPI player (or just play at low resolution), the Intellimouse is amazing. I'm a medium sensitivity guy (not twitchy but am only finger/wrist, no elbow/shoulder) and the Intellimouse just doesn't work for me at 1920*1200 resolution.
There is also the side benefit of what I feel to be slightly nicer and more modern build materials.
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Too slow does indeed refer to the dpi in relation to the resolution I'd be running.
The SteelSeries Xai seems like a great mouse, while the price seems a bit steep, it's definitely the main candidate for a purchase ATM.
Thanks for pointing it out to me, I didn't think of checking SteelSeries' mice out.
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I don't think the G500 is plagued by said issues. Not that I've noticed, at least. Then again, I'm not entirely sure what I am looking for. Care to explain in detail what the problem was with the prior mice? Judging by what you've said alone, the mouse goes where I tell it to go, nowhere else. Wait for it to go on sale though. Every once in a while you can get it for $35 to $45.
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]25638[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25639[/ATTACH]
Basically, mice with input correction/prediction/angle snapping correct your movement into straight lines, particularly when moving your mouse at a high velocity.
It effectively minimizes your control over the mouse's movement and can be extremely annoying when playing games or when doing other things which require precision such as image editing. Open MS Paint and try drawing a straight line while moving the mouse extremely fast, if you get a perfect line then it has correction. Try drawing a circle quickly, if it gets straight lines in it instead of remaining circular then it has correction.
Admittedly, this issue isn't noticeable to someone who has never used a correction-free mouse, but as someone whose first and current optical mouse has been a Microsoft Intelli, it's nigh impossible to switch to one with prediction.
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Too slow does indeed refer to the dpi in relation to the resolution I'd be running.
The SteelSeries Xai seems like a great mouse, while the price seems a bit steep, it's definitely the main candidate for a purchase ATM.
Thanks for pointing it out to me, I didn't think of checking SteelSeries' mice out.
Yeah unfortunately it is a bit pricey but I definitely feel like it's worth it, to the point that I'm going to buy a second one. The Xai DOES have prediction stuff BUT it has options to very explicitly turn it off so you KNOW it's off, which is important.
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I did a little paint test for you. I think you may have issues with this mouse, from what I can see. I'm uploading it so you can look at it, because you probably know what you're looking for more than I do.[ATTACH=CONFIG]25649[/ATTACH]
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Thank you Quarzac. Note how straight your lines are, it definitely has correction, which means it's most likely that the rest of Logitech's newer mice do as well :<
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Boo. Sorry. It's not a problem for me, but it's a real shame. It doesn't seem to provide enough of a benefit to mandate including it. I can't imagine why they would do it when it alienates potential customers like you.
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Boo. Sorry. It's not a problem for me, but it's a real shame. It doesn't seem to provide enough of a benefit to mandate including it. I can't imagine why they would do it when it alienates potential customers like you.
Most people like it, it's just really bad for precise (read: good) shooters like Quake 3/Live. It's fine for scrubby Call of Duty ****.
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That explains why I'm no good at Quake Live. Which would you group Counter Strike: Source in? I'm alright at that.
Cnt, I did some googling, and apparently the Razer Abyssus does not have prediction, though the Razer page calls it "drift control". This might work for you.
http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169414800
Check the FAQ. I don't have one, so I can't test it for you, but I'm sure there's a GHer out there with one.
EDIT: Apparently the G500's can be turned off with the drivers. I don't have them installed, but I'll do that, test it, and post again.
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If you tried the Deathadder and didn't like, was it a 3G (1800dpi) with NDC firmware (arguably the best model)? It differed greatly from the current 3.5G due to better tracking, and some NOS can pop for quite cheap on ebay. Just beware that the very first 07' models need new feet (taller), this was solved in a later casing before the 3.5G.
Btw, for Razer mice just check their driver downloads page, many models will offer both DC and NDC firmware to improve handling. Not that it will cure the other drawbacks.
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Ok, an interesting development. I installed the setpoint drivers, which was no fun, because it wiped my mouse's configuration from the last time I had installed them. Not a huge deal, but I'm not sure if I configured my buttons the same way. (Whoops) Anywho, upon launching the driver, I saw that it didn't have angle snapping (what logitech calls its prediction) enabled. So I did a quick paint test. It looked like this.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25660[/ATTACH]
Much like the last. However, if you note, the two lines in the middle that are the least straight are two that I set my mouse's dpi to 400 for, to match the intellimouse. More on this later.
So, in the interest of true science, I then enabled angle snapping. This gave some interesting results.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25661[/ATTACH]
Looks like wide ruled notebook paper.
So I'm not totally convinced that the G500 has prediction. My lines are straight with angle snapping disabled, but I realized that this could quite possibly be due to the fact that I use this mouse on a very high DPI. The first test was at 3000 DPI. When the mouse is maxed, it looks like this.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25662[/ATTACH]
This is (EDIT: could be), in my opinion, notably straighter than the 3000 DPI test. I only have to move my mouse a fraction of an inch to make a complete line here. Given, I don't know much about mouse sensor laser things. Maybe there is a slight hardware prediction. However, from looking at the test with the enabled prediction, I'm starting to think that I just make pretty straight lines. I am also terrible at making loopty-loops. Even with a pencil, they don't look loopty. So I can't say for sure, but I'm not confident saying that the G500 has prediction.
EDIT: My opinion wasn't totally right after looking at them side by side. I need to get someone in here who is better at not pulling the mouse up when trying to make straight lines. Theoretically, higher DPI should mean straighter lines, as you are less likely to stray from a straight line over a shorter distance. I have poor motor skills though. :biggrin:
I had a cheapy logitech that actually advertised prediction on the box. My sister took it to college with her, but I'll contact her tomorrow to do a couple paint tests so I can compare a logitech with definitive prediction to the G500. And she's artsy, so she should be able to do some better loopty-loops.
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To be honest, I haven't found anything that can match the intellimouse yet. The best mice for us so far are probably the deathadder sensors (includes a non-jitter abyssus) or cm storm spawn. I gave up looking for a replacement and I'm content with 1280x720 resolution to go with my 400 dpi. Keep in mind I've tried a box full of different mice that I now regret giving hope to.
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Avago ADNS-S3888 in the DeathAdder or newer firmware Abyssus (jitter-free) etc is the best sensor and what I chose when I decided to move from my IME 3.0.
I chose the Abyssus since it's a very light mouse. All other mice are inferior, laser is ****, that is all.
Don't use drivers, if you really like the feel of the IMO maybe try putting a DeathAdder sensor in the shell of it?
Make sure you do the tape fix so you reduce the 3 - 4mm LOD to 1.2mm~
Because you can't be bothered moving the mouse is seriously a half-assed reason, I changed mice because the sensor in the Microsoft mice couldn't keep up with my 56cm@360 sensitivity.
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I am intrigued by this product: http://www.ttesports.com/products/product.aspx?g=spec&s=14
Basic, old-school, good reviews, not sure about prediction/accel. I might be looking more into it since the prices are nice.
Also, Roccat stuff gets good reviews. Never been able to try though.
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Are the tracking issues on cloth pads sorted out via firmware in the actual DA 3.5G in high dpi settings? When they came out, everybody was still swearing for the original ADNS-S3688, even if they look similar on paper.
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If you're a super low DPI player (or just play at low resolution), the Intellimouse is amazing. I'm a medium sensitivity guy (not twitchy but am only finger/wrist, no elbow/shoulder) and the Intellimouse just doesn't work for me at 1920*1200 resolution.
There is also the side benefit of what I feel to be slightly nicer and more modern build materials.
Yep, sure enough I use very low sensitivity, with a giant cloth mousepad, so I never noticed any issue. Some of these other mice are nicer looking, though.
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That explains why I'm no good at Quake Live. Which would you group Counter Strike: Source in? I'm alright at that.
Cnt, I did some googling, and apparently the Razer Abyssus does not have prediction, though the Razer page calls it "drift control". This might work for you.
http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169414800
Check the FAQ. I don't have one, so I can't test it for you, but I'm sure there's a GHer out there with one.
EDIT: Apparently the G500's can be turned off with the drivers. I don't have them installed, but I'll do that, test it, and post again.
I enjoy Counterstrike (god knows I've played more than most people, though I only played old school, 5.5 beta -> 1.1 final or so. I quit way before Source and all that garbage) but have trouble taking it too seriously. Too many variables for me to really enjoy it as a competitive game. Quake 3/Live is just so...pure, it's on a pedestal that other shooters pretty much can't touch for me. The closest is Quake 4 with the Q4Max competition mod, which I actually prefer a bit, it's like Q2 + Q3.
Anyway, that Thermaltake mouse looks like it has potential, I'm interested to see if it ever gets adopted. Serious mice without insane issues (read: almost everything Razer makes) give me hope that we can get a descendant to the IM 1.1. I am quite happy with my Xai, though. It's damn close.
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[Addressing the OP here] Also, I've just thought you can just go and buy the cheapest decently made, basic Microsoft (preferred) or Logitech (less preferred) or A4-tech mouse since if you've survived so long on 400 dpi, you're probably able to live with 800 or 1000 dpi. In fact, cheap noname products sometimes prove good. I have sitting on my desk (though not plugged in) a <$3 mouse that's optical, small frame ("mini"), 1000 dpi, rubber coating, good springy keys (way better than many M$ or Logitech products), good wheel, and red lighting around the circumference, which looks very good. If they were selling it for 10 times the price, one wouldn't notice any inferiority. I expect the same to be able to be told about any classical A4tech mouse (i.e. looking like those old ball mice), barring that they're simply too slow for me, as I just can live with 800 dpi or less at my 1920*1080 resolution.
Alternatively, you may like some of the Microsoft Comfort line. I kinda did but they didn't feel sufficiently good in my hand (too big to be toss around the pad, too small to be palm-gripped comfortably) but my hands are probably bigger than yours.
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Damn. When did Geekhack get so crowded?
Quarzac: It indeed seems like on higher resolution there's some hardware prediction implemented. This doesn't surprise me because back in the 400dpi days no mice had correction, the first sensors which started 'featuring' correction were the ones used in the Logitech MX300/MX500 and their counterparts from other brands. However, I'll have to compare your lines to those of a similar dpi Razer mouse, perhaps those have the same extent of correction. Little prediction is better than major prediction, no prediction is better than both, though. Thanks a lot for taking the time to test the drivers, depending how the Razer compares, the Logitech just might be a viable option. You learn something new every day!
AlleyViper: I tried the DeathAdder back when it came out, it had a huge-ass lift off distance and scrapped my mousepad unless an extra layer of skates were attached. I remember reading on razerblueprints about the no correction firmware update which got quite a few people excited, but haven't had the chance (nor frankly, the reason) to give the DA another go since.
Bilbin: Thank you for your input regarding the sensors currently used by Razer, it's good to know the current DeathAdder can keep up with extreme sensitivities. Sensitivity is subjective, a mouse kicking into negative acceleration or failing to track at all due to how fast you want to move it isn't really "worse" (although a bit more problematic) than a mouse being unable to sample in a resolution high enough for me to comfortably maintain my own, finer sensitivity. You're knowledgeable, so you know that simply upping the sensitivity won't really solve the issue. Not wanting to spas my arm like mew isn't laziness, merely a natural inclination and a preference:
[video=youtube;ZlqJlUqz-hA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlqJlUqz-hA[/video]
NewbieOneKenobi: The Tt looks nice, lacks side buttons though! and I thought of buying one of the simpler general models microsoft is producing but they seem to be getting horrid reviews on the web.
I'll go by to one of the local stores to try out a DeathAdder within the next couple of days, Razer's mice seem to have the right MS-esque shape.
edit:
As far as FPS go, Q3 CPMA is as good as it gets. Search for videos on youtube, it's astonishing how much variables one can control and how high the skill cap is.
edit #2:
Has anyone tried the Zowie mice? Heaton's a better rifler than he is a Rogue, are these any good?
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Thanks for detailing, the version that scrapped soft surfaces was the first 07' casing, the latter and more popular is usually referred as DA 3G V2, which should be the one to look for for an older model. Stickers on the back are easily distinguishable if you google, this particular problem is also absent on any later model as the 3.5G or 3.5G BE.
At razerblueprints there's a list with lift off distances, but they can be quite high depending on the mat, about 3.5mm on cloth (QcK) but way less on some hard mats. In time firmware solved a lot of problems for the original 3G (the firmware included on the V2 was already far better), such as negative acceleration (from v1.10 on), and NDC is always a great bonus.
A fresh 3.5G might be bad out of the box if it comes with the original firmware, many users reported both acceleration problems and jitter on some cloth pads at release date. IIRC that jitter problem was quickly solved with firmware, for 5% acceleration I've seen conflicting reports. Still, you'll surely slap a recent NDC firmware if you have one to test anyway.
If 1800dpi is enough for you, the DA 3G V2 should be by far the most well proven iteration.
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Just for the record, I had my sister draw some lines with the cheapie. They looked like this.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25857[/ATTACH]
Even I can tell there's some serious prediction happening there. Not as severe as angle snapping, but pretty bad. Good luck on the hunt!
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I still not understand all that discussion about the IME
This an image I posted some time ago, with some curly lines drawn (veeeery fast) with three different mice.
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9392/miceq.png)
Other than the obvious difference between the native precision of the sensors I can't see anything wrong, obviously in the points where the mouse doesen't supply any useful data the line is interpolated and looks straight rather than curved, but what this has to do with the HW prediction ?
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Damn. When did Geekhack get so crowded?
Quarzac: It indeed seems like on higher resolution there's some hardware prediction implemented. This doesn't surprise me because back in the 400dpi days no mice had correction, the first sensors which started 'featuring' correction were the ones used in the Logitech MX300/MX500 and their counterparts from other brands. However, I'll have to compare your lines to those of a similar dpi Razer mouse, perhaps those have the same extent of correction. Little prediction is better than major prediction, no prediction is better than both, though. Thanks a lot for taking the time to test the drivers, depending how the Razer compares, the Logitech just might be a viable option. You learn something new every day!
Which mice are you talking about? The Agilent sensors used in a lot of early optical mice all had a forms of mouse correction. The only notable or well known sensor that didn't were the STMicroelectronics OS MLT04 in the Intellimouse optical 1.1 (2000) and Intellimouse Explorer 3.0. There were mice like the Intellimouse Explorer 2.0 and early Wheel Mouse Opticals that used Agilent Sensors, but I can't really comment on their characteristics.
Mouse correction in general isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's more along the lines of preference. Just takes practice and adaption over time.
Two weeks now and over 20 games of Starcraft 2 played on it (would be more but I've been doing 80+ hour work weeks). I seriously love this mouse and will be buying a second one for work, I already sold off one of my Razers to a coworker. The 5% acceleration fears are unfounded...I've found.
The acceleration issues are only a problem if you're using a real low sensitivity swiping with your entire arm. If you're used to a good sensor, it's pretty inconsistent. The main gripe I have with that sensor is it's low malfunction rate on cloth surfaces.
Other than the obvious difference between the native precision of the sensors I can't see anything wrong, obviously in the points where the mouse doesen't supply any useful data the line is interpolated and looks straight rather than curved, but what this has to do with the HW prediction ?
Nothing to do with interpolation lol The Rat 9 just has less prediction than the Logitech mice.
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I actually enjoyed reading that, it's not every day that what someone says on a forum makes me so happy. The tape fix fixes the LoD issues in the DeathAdder and as far as I know it's probably the most sold Razer mouse in CoD and CS communities, odd that it would scratch your mousepad, I used to have one and nothing like that happened to me.
You seem to really know what you're talking about and looking for, so I'm quite bewildered as to why you would post on a keyboard forum instead of taking some of your time and looking through Google or on esreality, you'll find that people on Geekhack aren't well versed in mice, apart from Arc'xer and a select few.
I knew that sensitivity is subjective I was just putting my own .02 as to why I chose to switch mice, to be honest I loved the IME 3.0 (albeit the negative acceleration problems), the lightness of the Abyssus though is so awesome. It took some time for my tracking and pinpoint aim to return to normal since I had to readjust my muscle memory with mouse grip and having to move 37g less across the pad (IME 3.0 - 104g, Abyssus 67g).
As you most likely know, no sensor is perfect, it's just which mouse is right for you. That's why it's so hard to suggest something for someone when they've already tried the 'near-perfect' sensor mice.
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Nothing to do with interpolation lol The Rat 9 just has less prediction than the Logitech mice.
Unless you're used to call prediction something that has nothing to do with it, I completely disagree.
Here the rat 9 shows just its accuracy (and hopefully) its precision. It has 5K+ dpi sensor v.s. 1000 or 800 of the two mice shown so the curves are more precise, as happen in any graph when more samples are provided. If any correction is in act is surely not prediction.
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The Philips Twin Eye sensor is terrible, how are you not noticing the blatant Z-axis issue?
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The Philips Twin Eye sensor is terrible, how are you not noticing the blatant Z-axis issue?
I don't have the rat anymore i sold it because the idiotic shape, but the sensor was just perfect.
And even if it had a Z axis problem my mice are used to stay on top of the mat, so wouldn't be a problem for me.
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I don't have the rat anymore i sold it because the idiotic shape, but the sensor was just perfect.
And even if it had a Z axis problem my mice are used to stay on top of the mat, so wouldn't be a problem for me.
Not sure if that is a jape, if so it is quite poor.
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Skylit:
No specific models, was merely speaking out of my foggy memories of youth. It's just that I don't remember the various generic 400dpi mice used at my local LAN shop having prediction issues, which were very noticeable when I happily purchased myself a Logitech MX510 a few months later.
I'm not sure I agree with the statement that prediction is a matter of preference, ultimately a mouse without prediction offers you greater control over the trajectory and final location of your cursor/cross-hair. I do agree that the differences aren't at all critical as people tend to make them out to be, and there having been plenty of notable players who used prediction mice is proof enough (czm comes to mind!), so in practice it is indeed just my preference and wanting to stick to the kind of tracking I'm used to.
Major kudos on your OCN thread!
Bilbin:
Admittedly, this is where laziness came into to play, or well, somewhat. From what I recalled of geekhack users people here tended to try out various alternative input solution and 'weird' ergonomic mice which no one in the gaming community bothered with. I posted here hoping to perhaps find such a "gem" instead of scouting the web for it.
Not wanting to scout the web is why I made a thread in the first place, of course. My schedule was a bit hectic in the last couple of days and with the new monitor arriving anytime now, I was in a hurry. So you weren't entirely wrong calling me out on laziness ^_^
I didn't post on ESReality because they'd flay me for playing World of Warcraft, of course. I did however realize just now, upon reading your comment, that people over there would try out any gaming related mouse on the market and provide useful information, so I headed over and did some reading thanks to your reminder.
The Abyssus looks good but I do want a 5-button mouse, so it's off to the store to try the DeathAdder, which I'd most likely end up purchasing.
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Make sure you do the tape fix on it if you end up buying it, 3.6mm~ LoD is absurd. To make it feel like the IMO of course :)
http://i.imgur.com/BJ5g7.jpg
Make sure it's 'magic tape' and make it straight, mine on the abyssus is covering the aperture by 1mm, just where some kind of reflective glass thing is starting. Covering the whole thing brings negative accel into play.
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I haven't mine at hand to test, but I've seen users reporting lower LOD with the very latest 1.39NDC/1.40DC firmware for 3G. For the 3.5G the latest 2.45 might be comparable, as they are always released at the same time with similar fixes, but this LOD difference doesn't seem to be confirmed with the respective BE update from 1.00 to 1.01 (while fixing the other issues, such as polling rate resetting to 500Hz).
I've told wrong info in a previous post, unlike the 3G, there seems to be only NDC firmware for the 3.5G (even out of the box).
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What does LOD stand for and how does the tape help?
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Lift-Off Distance. I'm not totally sure on the tape thing though.
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^^ Lift-off Distance. For a majority of users that occasionally lift of their mice, tracking should end immediately as the mouse is raised and only start when mouse has landed - the shortest LOD. By doing this, the cursor should remain in the same place while you moved your mouse around. 3.6mm is usually referred if you can put 3CDs under your mouse (sensor in the illuminated hole), and movement is still read. This will depend greatly on mats, with cloth suffering way more.
A simple tape mod will weaken the LED illumination, so that the mouse will stop tracking earlier as it's lifted. Changing the IR LED to a common old red LED seems to help a lot too.
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Razer Abyssus, only razer product i feel 100% confident in backing.
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Mice I've tried in the past and found to be inferior to the Intellimouse Optical:
Razer DeathAdder
You know, I was disappointed with my DeathAdder when I first got it, but it has really grown on me after a year of use. I use an IE3.0 and an IE3.1 at work and at my school lab, but I have been seriously considering replacing them all with DeathAdders. YMMV, but I for one am a convert.
I only had one opportunity to try the SS Xai, but the similiarity of shape struck me. Too bad it's so expensive, or else I would have given it a whirl.
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You know, I was disappointed with my DeathAdder when I first got it, but it has really grown on me after a year of use. I use an IE3.0 and an IE3.1 at work and at my school lab, but I have been seriously considering replacing them all with DeathAdders. YMMV, but I for one am a convert.
I only had one opportunity to try the SS Xai, but the similiarity of shape struck me. Too bad it's so expensive, or else I would have given it a whirl.
Yeah, I'll be posting updates on my Xai, especially if I find anything negative to say about it but all I can say so far is positive things. Given another couple weeks of great performance I'll likely end up buying another one for work (instead of having to bring it between work and home every night).
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The tape mod doesn't affect the mouse or anything like that at all (might reduce the max control a fraction) if that's what you are skeptical about, it only weakens the light as AlleyViper pointed out. It has such a high LoD because the light is so powerful.
Apparentally 1.01 firmware or higher fixes the LoD distance for the DeathAdder.
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The tape mod doesn't affect the mouse or anything like that at all (might reduce the max control a fraction) if that's what you are skeptical about, it only weakens the light as AlleyViper pointed out. It has such a high LoD because the light is so powerful.
Apparentally 1.01 firmware or higher fixes the LoD distance for the DeathAdder.
1.01 is the black edition and no, it doesn't lower lift off. :(
2.45 is the 3.5 G equivalence to 1.01 BE.
I've heard 1.39 NDC on the 3G model is absolutely phenomenal though.
I'm not sure I agree with the statement that prediction is a matter of preference, ultimately a mouse without prediction offers you greater control over the trajectory and final location of your cursor/cross-hair. I do agree that the differences aren't at all critical as people tend to make them out to be, and there having been plenty of notable players who used prediction mice is proof enough (czm comes to mind!), so in practice it is indeed just my preference and wanting to stick to the kind of tracking I'm used to.
But I can also say that prediction helps me keep my cursor at head level! :D It really goes both ways and like you've said there are plenty of notable competitive players that can do absolutely phenomenal with or without it. I mean I sometimes wonder how strenx can use a kinzu. (The prediction is enormous on that sensor, well higher than your average MX series logitech D:)
Now if you want my personal opinion or preferences, I would agree with the low to no correction, but a mouse like the G400 doesn't really bother me after adjusting for a few weeks.
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Head level alters quite often, doesn't it? Maps are hardly ever completely flat!
Tried the DeathAdder 3.5G at a shop today, it's comfortable and the lift-off distance seemed just fine with the default feet (shop had no clue which firmware is installed on the mouse). With my monitor arriving tomorrow, I think I'd give using the IMO on it a few days before making a final decision, it really still is the best mouse I've ever used (since I do prefer the shape to that of the IME 3.0 and the WMO).
Thanks a lot to anyone who posted in the thread, really didn't expect this much feedback and help.
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I've heard 1.39 NDC on the 3G model is absolutely phenomenal though.
Finally tested 1.39NDC on my late 3G V2. That will surelly depend on mat, I'm using an original QcK (5 years old?) and it still stracks well over 2 CDs, a bit erratically over 3 (~3.6mm) but positively tracking, and then absolutely no response over 4.
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does anyone have experience with the A4Tech X748K/X740K or the rebranded version Sharkoon Fireglider? I think the shape comes close to the Intelli Explorer 3.0 from Microsoft. I like the shape and color of it and it is cheap which is a good thing among all those pricy gaming mice. Are there any issues with this mouse, does the sensor cause any problems? I really would like to know.
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does anyone have experience with the A4Tech X748K/X740K or the rebranded version Sharkoon Fireglider? I think the shape comes close to the Intelli Explorer 3.0 from Microsoft. I like the shape and color of it and it is cheap which is a good thing among all those pricy gaming mice. Are there any issues with this mouse, does the sensor cause any problems? I really would like to know.
It might be even closer to a MS Habu.
Follow up to my previous post:
From an original Steelpad QcK to Goliathus Speed, LOD seems the same on my DA 3G V2 (3 CDs erratically, absolutely no tracking with 4). At least with the DA 3.5G sensor (Avago S3888 on Abyssus too), the Goliathus Speed and Taito are some of the easiest to find cloth pads with less jitter.
Refer to these threads: 1 (http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1813295) 2 (http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1881007)
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does anyone have experience with the A4Tech X748K/X740K or the rebranded version Sharkoon Fireglider? I think the shape comes close to the Intelli Explorer 3.0 from Microsoft. I like the shape and color of it and it is cheap which is a good thing among all those pricy gaming mice. Are there any issues with this mouse, does the sensor cause any problems? I really would like to know.
Yes, I use an X-478K on a Razer Golathius. I've had a great time with it, despite some problems, and basically everything is great except the shape's not good for my hand. This is to say given my palm size (I'm 6'5'' tall and my palm is longer than 8'') precludes being able to palm-grip the mouse comfortably. I still have to curl my hand. On the other hand, the mouse is too big and bulky for a comfortable fingertip grip, while claw grip doesn't really seem to work for me (I probably should try more). But if you have smaller hands than mine, which is practically a given, you should be fine with that mouse. It's basically a ripoff of the older Deathadder. It has the same sensor and roughly the same build. Some guy from Russia has also noticed this: http://itgalaxy.net/a4-tech-x-748k-vs-razer-deathadder/.
Some data: 600, 800, 1200, 1600, 2400, 3200 dpi toggled by a pressable LED under the wheel. Everything above 1600 dpi is interpolated. It's theoretically possible to use any dpi from 1 to 3200 you want and the mouse supposedly has its own memory to save that but I'm not sure everything works properly there (something's forggeting or failing to read the settings in the software). Weight is adjustable—there are 7 tiny weights. All in all, for a ridiculous price like $15 you get a great mouse. Just be careful because at least here there are huge price differences and some shops want double what the others do. Manufacturer website: http://www.x7.cn/en/product.asp?id=40.
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That might not be totally correct, the x-738k/x-748k uses an Avago ADNS-3080 (1600dpi) which should be more in line with a MX518. If it suffers from the same prediction, only experience will tell. Even so, it's great value for the money if you don't mind it.
The original DA uses an Avago ADNS-S3668 (1800dpi).
On the matter of shape, check this page (http://nosilverbullet.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-37.html).
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Sorry, didn't know that. Yeah, the sensor is the one from MX518, not the one from the old DeathAdder, I'm sorry.
What mouse is the first one on the left in this picture: http://blog-imgs-24.fc2.com/n/o/s/nosilverbullet/P1020446.jpg? The X-738-K perhaps? I can't recall ever seeing it and I'd definitely appreciate a normal-shaped A4tech! (Speaking of normal-shaped: http://www.x7.cn/en/product.asp?id=28.)
Back to the OP, though, I've been to the mall again, and checked all the rodents out there. Ended up coming home with the cheapest Logitech, the M90 (couldn't notice any difference with the M100), as it was so pleasant to drag around. So I plugged it in and it was great. Probably some 800 dpi but can't tell (maybe 1000?), traditional shape, very good aim and tracking. I'm just hitting things right. The other thing I considered was MS Optical Mouse 200, at 1000 dpi, but it was less comfortable. Some of the Comfort line MS mice weren't bad, either, you'd basically need to take them in your hand and find out which shape you like.
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OT:
Yes, it's a X-738K - same sensor, even cheaper and no dust/grime magnet rubber part. The rear contour looks a lot like their old ball mice, but the whole screams Diamondback.
According to a OCN thread, the MX518 uses the S prefixed ADNS-S3080/E which is probably proprietary, as some Diamondback's ADNS-A3080, while those 4Tech use ADNS-3080 (open source). AFAIK there's no open source version of the DA 3G's ADNS-S3668, but the DA 3.5G's ADNS-S3888 seems very close to the OS ADNS-3090 used on other mice. Firmware might set all of these apart, though.
While you're at it, could you please confirm if there's some pos/neg acceleration at native dpi, noticeable angle snapping (usual on 3080 family), or any way to disable prediction?
In here (PT) you can even find a good old WMO 1.1 for <10€ OEM, for those who can live with 400dpi in the desktop.
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I use a WMO 1.1a with three 1920x1080 monitors and 6/11 windows sensitivty and no acceleration. You won't find a better mouse if you want something similarly sized, because SteelSeries messed up bad and the Kinzu has positive acceleration and no fourth mouse button.
Logitech has abandoned their MX300/310/G3 line so you don't have a modern version of those as an option either. The G3 uses the prone to breaking sensor of the G5, I definitely wouldn't risk it. The MX310 is kind of awkwardly shaped and one of the ugliest mice I've seen. MX300 has acceleration issues like the MX500 had. Also, good luck finding most of these.
Razer mice are much like their keyboards. Except they don't have too much competition on mice, so you might be able to find one you like. There's nothing inherently wrong with razer mice, they just seem to never really get the ergonomics or build quality to feel right and focus too much on gimmicks.
The Xai is actually nice if you like its size and can stomach the price.
I am mostly sad that the Kinzu has those two design issues, because it would have been the perfect mouse otherwise. Even with those issues it sold a ton, which shows how open that segment of the market is.
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OT:
Yes, it's a X-738K - same sensor, even cheaper and no dust/grime magnet rubber part. The rear contour looks a lot like their old ball mice, but the whole screams Diamondback.
According to a OCN thread, the MX518 uses the S prefixed ADNS-S3080/E which is probably proprietary, as some Diamondback's ADNS-A3080, while those 4Tech use ADNS-3080 (open source). AFAIK there's no open source version of the DA 3G's ADNS-S3668, but the DA 3.5G's ADNS-S3888 seems very close to the OS ADNS-3090 used on other mice. Firmware might set all of these apart, though.
While you're at it, could you please confirm if there's some pos/neg acceleration at native dpi, noticeable angle snapping (usual on 3080 family), or any way to disable prediction?
In here (PT) you can even find a good old WMO 1.1 for <10€ OEM, for those who can live with 400dpi in the desktop.
Let me see what I can draw in paint. Using 3200 dpi in both cases, which is interpolated. My Windows setting is 6/11, Enhance Pointer Precision is off and registry patch applied to make true 1:1. For the record, I'm not bad at drawing straight lines or circles on paper and can stabilise my hand pretty well (used to take a lot of pictures of court files, sometimes several hundred pictures a day while flipping pages). Moving my hand fast first:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]26242[/ATTACH]
Now moving it slowly:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]26243[/ATTACH]
Admittedly, I'm not very proficient at interpreting the results but I think prediction exists. Not sure how to verify positive or negative acceleration.
As for WMO, I could probably find it here via on some auction at Allegro.pl. There's still a number of IE3.0 and IE1.1 mice too, including the SS and Zowie and Legends editions. By the way, is there any difference between those special editions and the normal IE3.0. First thing I'm thinking about, say, more than 400 dpi on any of them?
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OT:
Thanks for bothering!
3200 dpi if not perfectly smoothed out by firmware will cause a staircase effect at angles (like some parts of your circles), any reliable test should be done at native 1600dpi where this effect should be much less exaggerated (some cloth pads vs sensors can come into the equation too!). What you're doing at 3200dpi is like setting windows to 8/11 (IIRC).
Still, unless you have a very steady hand, there seems to be angle snapping going on on vertical/horizontal lines because of the way they seem to auto-correct on your fast test. I find it easier to check for this behavior when line width is set to only one pixel, and movements are fast to avoid your own tremors or self adjusting while drawing slow - but then, I don't know if it's the best way to tell it. MX518/G400 users should be more helpful to tell you on how and what extra lines to check for.
Pos/neg acceleration can be checked by moving the mouse very fast on a perfectly horizontal line and do a 360º on your FPS, if it exists, the cursor/reticle will end up inadvertently upper or lower the starting point (a mark on the wall, for example). Those MS mice you pointed out suffer from it noticeably at default 125Hz without patching, of course this is augmented by it's lack of angle snapping and lower dpi.
AFAIK 400dpi sensors are exactly the same on those editions. What changes are details like cable, Teflon feet, case texture and more noticeably rubberized sides depending on model. If you grab a Legends edition for cheap, you might be surprised at it's resale value.
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Here's 1600 dpi. :) For the record, the mouse is fully loaded with additional weights and the replacement sliders (that came as part of the package) are glued on top of the original ways (I like a double layer) and the mousepad is Razer Goliathus Speed Edition (its own page: http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.229378800/parentCategoryID.35208900/categoryId.40946200, comparison of properties like glide and control: http://www.razerzone.com/mousematguide/comparison).
I'm definitely more proficient with the mouse than the average person (over a dozen hours daily in front of the computer, I guess) and I might have a steady hand for some purposes (e.g. taking pictures and I'm not bad at drawing shapes on paper if I concentrate) but I have a diagnosed impairment in my right hand fine motorics and hand-eye coordination to the point I have serious problems writing legibly by hand, so I'm definitely not a calligrapher. I had an impression of being corrected by the mouse as I went but I could be seeing things.
Firstly, very fast speed:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]26335[/ATTACH]
Secondly, reasonably slow speed (faster than I did with 3200 dpi). The last two vertical lines were drawn with my eyes closed for a measure:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]26336[/ATTACH]
Unfortunately, I don't play FPS to verify acceleration. The closest thing would be Mass Effect, which probably wouldn't be good here. Any way to test that with RTS or minesweeper or in paint?
Thanks for explanation on the Legends edition. Those details you mention do matter to me. I'm obsessive about cable and I appreciate good sliders. I might just buy that mouse and pull some gimmick with sliders to use less force to move it around the pad despite the 400 dpi.
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Some things still look suspicious, horizontal lines and vertical lines in your fast test still seem snapped unless you have perfect control, and on your slower test some circle's (drawn on the lower left) parts are noticeably jagged like a staircase (but they improved a lot from 3200). AFAIK, this could be due to angle snapping, or most probably due to slight pixel skipping on a cloth mat. For the matter, my DA can do way worse than that at some angles with a QcK, it's just not significant on your drawings.
Provided ME hasn't any input engine acceleration problems and uses directinput, it will work too following a popular procedure:
Start by setting a low sensitivity, then start your game. Move your mouse next to an edge of your pad, then place the aim reticule on a well defined point or line cross that is level, so you can define mentally an horizon line and vertical reference for starting/end point. After it's all set, sweep your mouse slowly and perfectly on the horizontal to the other edge of your pad, then finally return as fast as you can to your starting point in the opposite edge. Sliding your mouse over a physical guide should help with more accurate results. In the end, if the reticule is either noticeably upper or lower the starting point (horizontal reference) or movement stopped at half of the way (horizontal), you might be exceeding the maximum mouse acceleration, something than can happen at default 125Hz polling rate without patching on those older MS mice. Now for positive/negative acceleration, it means that when you return fast to your starting point and the same distance was ran physically, the reticule either overshoots it or doesn't reach the starting point (either right or left the vertical reference). Please take human error in account!
The same mouse can behave completely different depending on usb polling and dpi settings.
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Hope you don't mind I quoted you on CyberGamer, cnt. I couldn't be bothered wording it myself.
http://www.cybergamer.com.au/forums/thread/p4943816#4943816
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Play nice! Other than that, I don't mind at all.
A quick update; it's been a few days now of using a 1920*1080 resolution and thus far the IMO is keeping up. I have a DeathAdder here a friend gave me to try so would probably plug that in for a few spins within the next few days, though as it currently stands, I find it unlikely that I would indeed replace my trusty mouse, which makes me feel a bit silly for opening this thread, but oh well, plenty of further discussion going on so I guess it's not all bad!