geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: bpiphany on Tue, 13 September 2011, 08:35:21

Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 13 September 2011, 08:35:21
I actually hadn't thought about the possibility, 38 screws later...
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6143417423_c5e2d0d13e_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143417423/)
Topre 2X+ stabilizer (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143417423/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

The Caps Lock stabilizer is a bit unique. Some of the screws goes into the brass risers. Most of them however only sneaks through black plastic holes formed between the slider inserts and are mounted directly into the plate. There is one hole there between A and S. The plate is 1.3 mm thick.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6180/6143967862_eb66fab982_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143967862/)
Topre Caps Lock stabilizer (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143967862/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

The mounting plate holes are actually not quite square making it impossible to put the slider inserts the wrong way.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6175/6143967636_e425854552_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143967636/)
Realforce 105U, Mounting plate (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143967636/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

The right Shift rubber came off when I opened the board up. It's a mess fitting everything together again if the cups come off. I did this with my HHKB to scan the PCB, and it had enough of cups to keep straight.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6086/6143417801_ffd3dbdfe8_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143417801/)
Realforce 105U, PCB top with Rubber Cups (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143417801/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

Nothing very surprising. I think the PCB on the HHKB is >2 layers. This one looks like ordinary 2 layers though.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6089/6143418029_311cede63f_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143418029/)
Realforce 105U, PCB back (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143418029/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

Details of the controller circuitry. I have higher res pics if anyone is interested. Today I also learned about multiplexers..
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6188/6143968950_897e6572b6_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143968950/)
Realforce 105U, controller detail 1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143968950/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6067/6143418201_7a3b2365a2_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143418201/)
Realforce 105U, controller detail 2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6143418201/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: RiGS on Tue, 13 September 2011, 10:51:38
I wonder why topre switches lack the annoying friction. The slider moves in that switch case in a similar fashion as the slider of cherry switches.
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: redpill on Tue, 13 September 2011, 12:34:16
Them Topre folk know how to put a keyboard together.
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 13 September 2011, 13:40:06
Quote from: ripster;415548
Someone should put a link to this TIL in the Topre Wiki.

Otherwise it will fade away like most keyboard forum posts.


Actually, anyone feel free to add the photos or links there, I don't like messing around largely with other peoples wikis...
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 13 September 2011, 13:44:56
Quote from: RiGS;415486
I wonder why topre switches lack the annoying friction. The slider moves in that switch case in a similar fashion as the slider of cherry switches.


Probably the larger area of interaction smooths over imperfections better. Also when hitting a key a bit off center, and the sliders being wider, the levering force "jamming" the slide might be smaller. Differences in materials and tolerances could surely play a role too.
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: simon_C on Tue, 13 September 2011, 13:55:44
TIL topres are rubber dome
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Tue, 13 September 2011, 14:14:16
Yep, that's why they're so damn nice. Incidentally, also why the Dell Quietkeys are so nice.
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 15 September 2011, 08:27:10
Ever wondered how large the capacitance of the Topre switch really is? Yeah, me too... This multimeter might do the trick I hope. Looks like a baseline of 5pF.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6161/6149586455_902d304be9_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6149586455/)
Capacitance of unconnected wires (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6149586455/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

I had to cut the traces to isolate the switch from the circuitry. I was aiming for Scroll Lock, but missed only by a hair =P Soldered in probe wires.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6209/6150137090_3120bb09b8_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6150137090/)
Close-up of Topre switch capacitor (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6150137090/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

8pF while released, minus those 5 lets say <~5pF.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6202/6149586531_d908950942_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6149586531/)
Topre switch capacitance, released (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6149586531/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

14pF while pressed, so lets say ~10pF.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6183/6150137052_5f2a06e2ca_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6150137052/)
Topre switch capacitance, pressed (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486915@N03/6150137052/) by Fredrik Atmer (http://www.flickr.com/people/67486915@N03/), on Flickr

I don't really know anything about electronics, but if my measuring method is nearly okay that would mean at least a doubling in capacitance. Wouldn't be too hard to detect, would it? I need to take an electronics course...
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 15 September 2011, 08:47:25
I wonder if it's possible to replace the wimpy topre springs to a stiffer custom made one. That way the all 30g topre domes with a 65g spring could be a nice linear switch combo, but without the annoying friction.
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 15 September 2011, 09:16:55
Quote from: RiGS;416473
I wonder if it's possible to replace the wimpy topre springs to a stiffer custom made one. That way the all 30g topre domes with a 65g spring could be a nice linear switch combo, but without the annoying friction.

My layman answer would be that metals are all pretty much the same when it comes to affecting the gap properties of the capacitor. So yes I wouldn't see any greater problems doing it. Even if the properties are slightly different that could probably be adjusted for by changing some resistor somewhere. Didn't Topre announce a keyboard with a trim wheel? =)
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: thebilgerat on Thu, 15 September 2011, 09:45:26
TIL people are perfectly willing to cut trace and solder leads to a 300+ dollar keyboard to double check capacitance figures.  Without much electrical experience.  Which is awesome!
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 15 September 2011, 10:09:11
I'm not completely noob with soldering and physics in general =) Just not a lot of electronics knowledge in specific. And "double check", are there numbers somewhere? And they are at least a little less than $300. I haven't done anything irreversible, yet...
Title: TIL - Topre sliders are stabilized.
Post by: suprsmo on Tue, 24 April 2012, 21:51:58
Cheers for this. Found it a google search for Topre Stabilizers.