geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Zamorph on Sat, 17 September 2011, 21:00:01
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I asked this a few months ago, but I do want to ask again.
Why tenkeyless?
Since I came to GH, I learned about boards and bought a filco, but I never used tenkeyless so I got a 104. I was mainly scared I wouldnt like it just because of all the years I had a numpad on my board. (You know, like nostalgia)
I always think about trying a tenkeyless now, but idkkkk. (Not saying I dont like my 104, just wanna try something new)
@ programmers, do you use tenkeyless?
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ergonomic reasons - mouse is closer to mouse hand, shoulders don't have to be stretched far apart if you aren't some 6ft giant.
others like it for compactness.
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TKLs are nice for people who don't use the numpad too much. They take up less desk space, keep the mouse closer to you, and apparently because of the reduced movement, can be slightly better for you (RSI wise) over time.
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Anyone have any stories where they didnt know if they would like tenkeyless, bought one, and liked it?
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I did.
Bought a tenkeyless, and also a poker. Found out that hands don't have to be stretched so far apart, it feels rather comfortable.
Now that I am using my 101-key Model M again, spreading my arms apart feels rather awkward.
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The biggest reason for me to like the tenkeyless design more than the full size is that it allows me to have my hands closer to one another since the mouse can go further left. The space i save is also nice and as result its easier to rotate the keyboard (I like to move my chair, and when I do, I rotate the keyboard so that its in front of me)
Not to mention that I dont need the numpad ^^ The number row feels more comfortable for me because when I need to type a number I am typing a lot of letters anyways, so going to the numpad, just for a number isnt too nice (programming job)
This is my reasoning (=
PS: Yep, I wasnt sure if id like it before i bought it. When my kb arrived it took me one day to get used to the form factor. I cant operate those huge "full size" keyboards anymore, they get in the way of my mouse O:
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i "grew up" learning to touch type and that means entering in numbers with a numpad (no accounting work, but i can enter in a credit card superfast), i also gamed with the numpad for years on fps/mmo, i modded keyboard and tried out TKL, was pretty easy to get adjusted to the numrow to enter in numbers (not as fast), still like it, more ergo. I mean worse case scenerio you pay a bit more for a numpad (more for mech numpad of course). then there are some of those TKL with the programmed button that lets jkl/uio act as a numpad.
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Your a programmer and dont use the numpad a lot? /confused
explain lolcakes
@ programmers, do you use tenkeyless?
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When I was programming (and still now when I write scripts) since my hands were already in position on the alphabet it was always easier to use the number row for whatever numbers were needed for loops and so forth rather than swinging over to the numpad.
It's like using shift/ctrl-Ins for copy/paste while using the mouse to hi-light/navigate. Lots of hand movement for no reason. Using Ctrl-C/V/X is way easier if you're mousing to navigate.
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Your a programmer and dont use the numpad a lot? /confused
explain lolcakes
Programmer is different than accountant :P Well basically with any programming language you will be using symbols like {}();$%&! a lot! All of those are on or around the number row - therefore the number row feels more comfortable than the num pad. Also keep in mind that programming in any programming language will involve more letters than numbers in your code, and I believe its easier to press a button that is right above the letters and then go back to the letters as opposed to going all the way to the numpad.
I would guess that an accountant would be typing a lot of numbers all the time so they probably do need a numpad. But again, Im not an accountant so I dont know (:
Hope that was helpful,
Cheers
Edit: typo
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Thanks cakes, I thought programmers used more numbers in general
You indeed did help.
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As someone who dabbles in everything from design (photoshop, illustrator, etc) to 3D graphics to Mac/iPhone programming with all kinds of random things inbetween, I found the lack of a numberpad extremely annoying since it is used and required in some software. I know a lot of people like tenkeyless but to me it's an annoyance.
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just get one cheap kinesis or goldtouch numpad with browns and stick it to the right of your mouse. I'm really liking this set up.
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Thanks cakes, I thought programmers used more numbers in general
You indeed did help.
I'm a programmer and I ditched numpads years ago. Besides, I use straight-column keyboards like the Kinesis Advantage, which makes it very easy to touch-type the number row. With this keyboard, I never have to look at the keys.
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Why would a programmer need to enter a lot of numbers? Sure, there's the occasional number, but the number row is plenty good enough for that. Being able to have the main qwerty part of the keyboard more central in front of you is a big benefit, all the time.
But no, I don't use TKL, having to move between the cursors and the pgup/pgdn/etc block sucks.
84-key AT layout, or Raptor K1 (Cherry 1800)... with numlock OFF!
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Thanks cakes, I thought programmers used more numbers in general
You indeed did help.
I hope thats not too annoying for you to look at. Posting just for the sake of comparison and so that you can see how few numbers you get to type.
By the way this is the beauty of fluid dynamics and thats opengl code in C. Id love to talk about it but I know i have to limit myself to keyboards here (which are just as exciting) :P
void CPool::Update(float deltaTime)
{
int xc,zc;
for (xc = 0; xc < m_xSize; xc++)
{
for (zc = 0; zc < m_zSize; zc++)
{
int ArrayPos = xc+zc*m_xSize;
m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].newY = m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].y;
//check, if this oscillator is on an edge (=>end)
if ((xc==0) || (xc==m_xSize-1) || (zc==0) || (zc==m_zSize-1))
;//TBD: calculating m_Oscillators at the edge (if the end is free)
else
{
//calculate new speed
float AvgDifference = m_Oscillators[ArrayPos-1].y //left neighbor
+m_Oscillators[ArrayPos+1].y //right neighbor
+m_Oscillators[ArrayPos-m_xSize].y //upper neighbor
+m_Oscillators[ArrayPos+m_xSize].y //lower neighbor
-4*m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].y;
m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].UpSpeed += AvgDifference*(deltaTime/m_OscillatorWeight);
m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].UpSpeed *= (1.0f-m_Damping);
//calculate the new posit
m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].newY += m_Oscillators[ArrayPos].UpSpeed*deltaTime;
}
}
}
//copy the new position to y:
for ( xc = 0; xc < m_xSize; xc++)
{
for (int zc = 0; zc < m_zSize; zc++)
{
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y =m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].newY;
}
}
//calc new norm vect
for ( xc = 0; xc < m_xSize; xc++)
{
for (int zc = 0; zc < m_zSize; zc++)
{
SF3dVector u,v,p1,p2;
if (xc > 0) p1 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc-1+zc*m_xSize].x,
m_Oscillators[xc-1+zc*m_xSize].y,
m_Oscillators[xc-1+zc*m_xSize].z);
else
p1 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].x,
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y,
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].z);
if (xc < m_xSize-1)
p2 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+1+zc*m_xSize].x,
m_Oscillators[xc+1+zc*m_xSize].y,
m_Oscillators[xc+1+zc*m_xSize].z);
else
p2 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].x,
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y,
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].z);
u = p2-p1; //vector from the left neighbor to the right neighbor
if (zc > 0) p1 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+(zc-1)*m_xSize].x,
m_Oscillators[xc+(zc-1)*m_xSize].y,
m_Oscillators[xc+(zc-1)*m_xSize].z);
else
p1 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].x,
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y,
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].z);
if (zc < m_zSize-1)
p2 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+(zc+1)*m_xSize].x,
m_Oscillators[xc+(zc+1)*m_xSize].y,
m_Oscillators[xc+(zc+1)*m_xSize].z);
else
p2 = F3dVector(m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].x,
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].y,
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].z);
v = p2-p1; //vector from the upper neighbor to the lower neighbor
SF3dVector normal = Normalize3dVector(CrossProduct(&u,&v));
if (normal.y > 0.0)
{
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].nx = normal.x;
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].ny = normal.y;
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].nz = normal.z;
}
else
{
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].nx = -normal.x;
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].ny = -normal.y;
m_Oscillators[xc+zc*m_xSize].nz = -normal.z;
}
}
}
}
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Wowzer, its not annoying to look at I just dont know what im looking at lol. What script is that?.....If its even a script lol
@soar, you use your numpad for things other than numbers?:O what do you do for a living?
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I love tenkeyless for gaming and typing on the net. I keep a Model M in a tray below my RF 87UB 55g at home for doing various financial stuff, payroll, etc. At work I alternate between a RF 104UB 55g and a tenkeyless Ducky, and a Poker for meetings.
There are times when I really find a numberpad handy, so I do like to have that option, but 90% of the time I'd say I much prefer my RF 87UB 55g at home over anything. I can keep my trackball close and for gaming it's great.
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Wowzer, its not annoying to look at I just dont know what im looking at lol. What script is that?.....If its even a script lol
nope, its not a script i dont script (: Its part of a class to calculate ripples that form on the surface of a fluid when a particle collides with it. It uses the openGL library for displaying it in 3D and the language is
C++. It is just applying physics models (this is why i said the beauty of fluid dynamics :P)
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@redpill, why not just use the little numpad accessory? Like bringing in the big guns for the numpad? ;)
Also, can you really feel the difference with the numpad gone in terms of ergo?
@cakes, o I want to do that. I could make up BS and everyone would believe me :) lol
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@cakes, o I want to do that. I could make up BS and everyone would believe me :) lol
Its nicer when you see stuff working finally. This i clip i took cause i was excited about my camera controls working.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9M2gnZFiIA
Ps: for work i code boring stuff ): This is for university stuff
Edit: For some reason my sentences dont make sense; too tired. Need sleep. Good night forum
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That was awesome:). I would have gone into programming, but I choose a different path.
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I've never used Tenkeyless before and although I don't use.the numpad much, I was worried that I wouldnt like it. But only way to find out was to actually use one and I've ordered Filco tenkeyless. I just love it. I don't miss the numpad at all.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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more ergonomic, less hand travel when moving mousing hand to keyboard, more desk space, travels easier
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I hadn't even heard of tenkeyless until very recently when I started looking into buying a new keyboard, but I'd often thought the numpad was a bit pointless and outdated (for me personally, that is). Makes sense to me just to ditch it and save desktop space. I can't think of a single time I've used a numpad in at least a decade.
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shorter reach to the mouse from the typing area. Numpad has very little use to me.
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I have keyboards from the HHKB to a 122 key Model F, and I have to say, I find it frustrating using a keyboard without the numpad. I do a lot of programming, and like most people who do that, numbers tend to be confined to variable and constant declarations, all in a block at the top of a file or the top of a function. As such, when typing them in, I find it vastly easier to use the numpad. But when writing actual code, numbers are comparitively rare, since they are all stored in variables instead of hard coded.
Also, I'm more of a keyboard shortcut person. I find that people who prefer tenkeyless generally tend to use the mouse a lot. I have mousekeys enabled in X, and I use keyboard shortcuts for almost everything. Basically, I'm rarely using both the keyboard and the mouse. It's almost always one or the other, and I always move the unused item out of the way. So for me, the arm reach issue isn't an issue.
Whenever I boot up a game like Dragon Age though, I prefer to use my keyboards without tenkeys. Because that's just about the only time I use both keyboard and mouse simultaneously.
So it's all in how much you use your mouse.
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Anyone have any stories where they didnt know if they would like tenkeyless, bought one, and liked it?
Me. I just bought my first Tenkeyless (Filco) as a gift for my Mother but have been playing with it first. I have noticed how much more comfortable and natural my hands are with the keyboard right in-front of me, which is impossible with the full-size. I can only imagine it wiould make one a better and faster typer. It's something you don't know until you order one 'cause proir to that, I was just fine with the Numpad being there. Now I am thinking of getting two new keyboards in Tenkeyless.
Also, the standalone Filco Numpad (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=620) is better than the normal Numpads due to the extra buttons.
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I used a circular saw to hack the numpad on one of my Microsoft Natural Elite keyboards six years ago. Prefer tenkeyless ever since, even though I currently don't use one.
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ergonomic reasons - mouse is closer to mouse hand, shoulders don't have to be stretched far apart if you aren't some 6ft giant.
others like it for compactness.
This.
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I started using my left hand for numpad duty a long time ago for entering numbers while mousing with my right. I never thought I'd be able to do without the numpad right on the keyboard, but I find it works infinitely better using a separate numpad to the left of the keyboard. My desk isn't that big, so it allowed the alpha keys on my keyboard to move further to the right, into a more natural position with my chair. I find that everything I do day-to-day is much more comfortable using a tenkeyless board, and I don't forsee myself switching back.
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I would love to go exclusively -10key for all my boards, but unfortunately I make my living using software that requires the -10key for any serious work (Pro Tools).
But having said that, if anybody tried to take my -10key brown, there'd be blood.
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I recently bought a new 104 Filco but in the last couple of days I started to use my tenkeyless "Otaku" again to force myself to start being more accurate with my touch typing. After using it for gaming I noticed how the small size of the keyboard was more comfortable to use than a regular size keyboard and decided to not switch back. Having the extra desk space where you can move your mouse pad closer to the keyboard is very nice. I'm also able to angle my keyboard a lot better for obvious reasons. I wish the gaming companies would adapt this form factor but it seems all their consumers want is flashing lights and 500 macro keys. Not that there's anything wrong with back-lighting.
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I originally didn't even think about a TKL until I found this forum. After I picked up my first TKL, I found that I like the smaller format better. Mainly due to it being a little more centered as well as not having to have the mouse so far apart. and then at home my rather small keyboard tray doesn't allow for a full sized keyboard and mouse together. It didn't take me long to get used to working without a number pad. I have separate ones to plug in if I have to work heavily with numbers.
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I bought a tenkeyless because I thought I would use it at home (where I have right-handed only mice), then started using it at work instead (where the ergo guys had gotten me used to mousing with my left hand for the reasons stated above). Now I have a tenkeyless and I mouse on the left anyway. Now there's even this weird associative disorder where I can't mouse on the right at work because it "feels" wrong, and vice-versa at home. D'oh!
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I recently bought my first mechanical keyboard, and I decided to go with a tenkeyless layout. I learned touch typing with the regular number keys, so I didn't miss the num pad at all. I'll never switch back to a full size keyboard: with a tenkeyless layout it is much more comfortable to switch from using the mouse to typing, and vice versa.
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I'm a lefty and my desk setup is an L-shape; a full keyboard barely fits in my tray, and it leaves my left elbow bumping up against the adjoining desk. I don't use the numeric keypad, so a TKL board makes the most sense for me.
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I am using a filco tenkeyless, and it is a breath of fresh air. It is something really good. Maybe typing speed has actually increased.
I would like to also comment that I hear the famous ping of Filco on the backspace. But still no biggie as this is my first venture in owning a mechanical keyboard.
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Personally will not get a TKL. I love typing numbers into my compiler/calculator(/or infact anything that needs numbers) using the number pad.
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I am a programmer and I use a tenkeyless Filco. Although I am planning on upgrading to a 62 key DOX soon. (62 in my case refers to the backspace being replaced by 2 keys instead of 1 long backspace.) Similar in feel to the happy hacking keyboard. Each person has different tastes though. My reasoning is I love the compact design perfect for taking to work/school/friends or anywhere else I might need to take it. Also that means I can leave the larger tenkeyless at home where I use it for everything from coding to data input to speed typing to gaming. I planned out my layout for the keys in the most optimal way I could still have all the functionality of a tenkeyless without the size using a Fn modifier. If you want to look into creating your own follow the DOX keyboard thread in the modifications subforum.
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Personally will not get a TKL. I love typing numbers into my compiler/calculator(/or infact anything that needs numbers) using the number pad.
Same here. I have my unicomp right near my CMstorm for the tenkey usage. I'd say the best method is to have a TKL keyboard, with an add on tenkey. I might get some ALPSulaters for that purpose.
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I use my numpad quite a bit for work, since I do a lot of price calculations and estimates.
For personal use, I suppose that I could get away without a numpad, but I already switch between multiple keyboards and the disconnect is jarring.
My laptop has a numpad, too, and so now I feel like it "should" be there.
By the way, I moved my mouse to the left, even though I am a hardened right-hander, and it has been a good move.
Still looking for a dead simple, no frills, lightweight symmetrical mouse. I have a wired beige Microsoft from about 5 years ago that I like pretty well.
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Why would a programmer need to enter a lot of numbers? Sure, there's the occasional number, but the number row is plenty good enough for that. Being able to have the main qwerty part of the keyboard more central in front of you is a big benefit, all the time.
But no, I don't use TKL, having to move between the cursors and the pgup/pgdn/etc block sucks.
84-key AT layout, or Raptor K1 (Cherry 1800)... with numlock OFF!
Some programmers do. I used to be a Visual Basic programmer working mainly on mangement information systems storing a lot of numbers in the database. The project leader of the company I worked for was very very picky. When you say that your portion is done, he should not be able to find a bug, otherwise, he'll let you know in a not so nice way. That means we needed to create our own data to test. This was were the number pad came in handy.
At home, I did consider a tenkeyless and separate number pad, but ended buying full-size keyboards, and an Evoluent ouse instead. I also try to use keyboard shortcuts as much as possible. I don't think I can live without a number pad because I use Excel a lot. Every night I enter all my expenses.
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Wait, what? You're a programmer and you created data by TYPING it? That's a little disturbing.
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Yes, we had to as hard as it is to believe. It was a requirement to have the data as close as production data. We were not allowed to "automate" the data production. By using the software to actually input the data allowed us to make sure every textbox on the screen was working as they should. The motto was: "The user should not be able to do anything he/she is not supposed to do." So, as part of the testing process, we had to pretend to be a dumb user doing the stupidest things. Why? We, the programmers were biased. If we did not force ourselves to pretend we were dumb users, we would have tested the software by doing things "right." And believe or not, it was for a government agency (before coming to Canada).
One thing I learned though for the rest of my life I think is: think well before implementing. I have seen my fair share of bad code in Canada.
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So write an automation script that automates the data input to the actual software to create the data... but yeah, being as how it was in the government there's no surprises about the level of stupidity.
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So write an automation script that automates the data input to the actual software to create the data... but yeah, being as how it was in the government there's no surprises about the level of stupidity.
It was for the management of military mess (messes?). The guys were very good with guns, but not so good with computers. I don't work as a programmer anymore. I am working towards becoming a translator (French/English) because I like grammar more. The only skill I have kept and still update is Crystal Reports and SQL. Crystal Reports is definitely a nice skill to have.
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Nice avatar :nod:
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I don't think I can live without a number pad because I use Excel a lot. Every night I enter all my expenses.
I guess I might turn NumLock on if I were entering a long series of numbers (and use enter / tab to move to the next box in the column / row). But, expenses include descriptions etc, so actually even there the numbers are only a part of it.
... as part of the testing process, we had to pretend to be a dumb user doing the stupidest things. Why? We, the programmers were biased. If we did not force ourselves to pretend we were dumb users, we would have tested the software by doing things "right."
I've worked with some great testers over the years, and some annoying ones. None of them were annoyed at finding bugs though - the annoying ones were particularly gleeful! It's just not sensible for a programmer to spend too much time testing, but when the need arises I find it helps to move to a completely different PC, or at least reboot to a separate OS installation that doesn't have dev tools etc, or at least change keyboard - even to a rubber dome if it helps change the mindset!
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I guess I might turn NumLock on if I were entering a long series of numbers (and use enter / tab to move to the next box in the column / row). But, expenses include descriptions etc, so actually even there the numbers are only a part of it.
True. There are descriptions, but I keep track of my expenses, as well as my wife and my daughter's. I should have gotten a tenkeyless and separate number pad, but they would have cost me much more than just a Topre keyboard alone.
In some cases, it is not possible. I am currently using an AEK II at work.
I've worked with some great testers over the years, and some annoying ones. None of them were annoyed at finding bugs though - the annoying ones were particularly gleeful! It's just not sensible for a programmer to spend too much time testing, but when the need arises I find it helps to move to a completely different PC, or at least reboot to a separate OS installation that doesn't have dev tools etc, or at least change keyboard - even to a rubber dome if it helps change the mindset!
Yes, it helps a lot when you change your mindset when testing. At least, that's what I found.
Nice avatar :nod:
You mean my avatar? If yes, it's a nice one indeed :)
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I'm a systems analyst. Pretty much my job involves everything server and network related. I'm leery about TKL because I type IPs all day long... One day I shall see whether I like it or not.
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Interestingly I type IPs on the number row faster than on the numpad. ISBNs, dollar amounts and phone numbers however I do much faster on the numpad. Suppose that's what happens when you order books for a college 2 years straight.
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Hmm, my Kinesis Advantage has an embedded numpad (like the RealForce 87U or IBM mini does) but I never use it (except for Mouse Keys) because the straight-columns make it totally foolproof to touch type the number row, your fingers can jump from any row to the desired key in the number row with total confidence and no need to look down.
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Why? We, the programmers were biased. If we did not force ourselves to pretend we were dumb users, we would have tested the software by doing things "right."
I think this is why some ppl can't use Mac's, it's pretty impossible to force yourself to think dumb in order to use a mac.
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I think this is why some ppl can't use Mac's, it's pretty impossible to force yourself to think dumb in order to use a mac.
Who says you have to force yourself to think dumb to use a Mac? Mac is by far the best *nix based setup around IMNSHO. Native BSD layer, included gnu based toolchains (even with cross compiler support built-in), tons and tons of GNU software works out of the box (and those that don't are typically relatively easy to port), they can easily run windows and other *nix based setups under emulation (even under free ones like virtualbox) with very little speed loss, no viruses/trojans/malware, the core of the OS is open source (Darwin) and the list goes on and on. Not to mention that the hardware is generally well designed, well put together and lasts for ages. For those that think that you have to "think dumb" in order to use a Mac you haven't fully explored the possibilities or have some other biases that are interfering with your thought processes.
I've spent years as a linux dev (I started with slackware 1.x), was even lead dev on some pretty big projects and a couple of linux distro ports and I use Macs almost exclusively these days (except for web servers). I'm also a programmer as far as my "day job" goes, oh ... and I don't typically use a keypad and prefer tenkeyless boards :)
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To me, OS X is Apple's greatest achievement. I mean going from OS9 to a FreeBSD based OS X, with GNU utilities included, what a bold and awesome thing to do. I'm a Linux person and can't imagine downgrading (ha ha) to anything else as my main box, but ... WOW. Lot's of Unix beards got into Macs when OS X came out.
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To me, OS X is Apple's greatest achievement. I mean going from OS9 to a FreeBSD based OS X, with GNU utilities included, what a bold and awesome thing to do. I'm a Linux person and can't imagine downgrading (ha ha) to anything else as my main box, but ... WOW. Lot's of Unix beards got into Macs when OS X came out.
LOL :) To me it's not a downgrade, it's kind of a side-grade. I couldn't imagine having to use windows again. You couldn't pay me enough ... or rather, you would wan't to pay me enough as it would be a big figure ;) I was a hard-core Linux user (and I mean hard core) for a long time and only came into using OSX full-time at around 10.3.
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I couldn't imagine having to use windows again.
I can't remember the last time I vehemently objected to using one operating system over another. I'm also one of those who's used the "major" *nix and windows releases/platforms over the past 20 years in a professional (development) and personal capacity. At the end of the day, you use the tool that fits the job.
Back on topic, I've switched to tenkeyless at work as well as home. 0 mileage on a tenkey pad to speak of, and gets the mouse closer to the "center" of activity on my desk.
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Right now my biggest complaint is I can't get all my favorite features on 1 OS. I like the new Windows 7 taskbar features (pinning and the window reveal on hover) but I would really like to have FVWM-like sloppy mouse focus. The basic gist is that there's no active window auto-raise and that whatever window is under the mouse gets focus (unless it's the desktop, then focus doesn't change from the last window.)
*sigh*
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Right now my biggest complaint is I can't get all my favorite features on 1 OS. I like the new Windows 7 taskbar features (pinning and the window reveal on hover) but I would really like to have FVWM-like sloppy mouse focus.
The basic gist is that there's no active window auto-raise and that whatever window is under the mouse gets focus (unless it's the desktop, then focus doesn't change from the last window.)
*sigh*
I have the exact same requirements, which is why I never used GNOME. For the last few years I am very happy with Xubuntu + Compiz, gives me all of the above features you mentioned (window reveal hover, sloppy focus, avoidance of raise even if you click inside a partially hidden window). And I've configured compiz to raise/lower a window when I hit push one of my mouses side buttons (the other side button rotates my desktop cube). It's awesome.
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At the end of the day, you use the tool that fits the job.
Well said. The perfect OS does not exist...unfortunately.
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It's like using shift/ctrl-Ins for copy/paste while using the mouse to hi-light/navigate. Lots of hand movement for no reason. Using Ctrl-C/V/X is way easier if you're mousing to navigate.
And it is even easier when you use left mouse button to highlight the text and then middle mouse button to paste the text. No other way is faster and simpler. [NOTE: it works on LINUX/UNIX box] ;D :thumb:
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@ programmers, do you use tenkeyless?
LOL no. god no. Several of the IDEs I use daily use numpad keys for pretty important stuff. Im sure I could have it set as function layer just as easily, but I prefer 1 keystroke to two. Thats one of the main reasons i got a board with a ridiculous macropad on the left side. plus 3 different macro profiles. ive got a profile for IDA and one for visual studio and one for eclipse.
you can harp on and on about efficiency of motion but I find that having more buttons is almost always better than having less and needing to press multiple keys at at a time.
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Whoa - necrobump!
Anyway yes, I use TKL for programming (at work). I use 60% (HHKB) for programming at home.
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Looks sexier plus I needed the real estate. Stupid small keyboard tray.. :x
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Why would a programmer need to enter a lot of numbers? Sure, there's the occasional number, but the number row is plenty good enough for that. Being able to have the main qwerty part of the keyboard more central in front of you is a big benefit, all the time.
But no, I don't use TKL, having to move between the cursors and the pgup/pgdn/etc block sucks.
84-key AT layout, or Raptor K1 (Cherry 1800)... with numlock OFF!
Various projects require lots of datacrunching. Plus if you're doing something for networking you'll be entering in IPs. I use the snot out of my numpad.
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Why would a programmer need to enter a lot of numbers? Sure, there's the occasional number, but the number row is plenty good enough for that. Being able to have the main qwerty part of the keyboard more central in front of you is a big benefit, all the time.
But no, I don't use TKL, having to move between the cursors and the pgup/pgdn/etc block sucks.
84-key AT layout, or Raptor K1 (Cherry 1800)... with numlock OFF!
Various projects require lots of datacrunching. Plus if you're doing something for networking you'll be entering in IPs. I use the snot out of my numpad.
You have snot in your numpad?
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Like iindigo said above, I use adobe aftereffects and photoshop and 3d. So I am quite used to typing in numbers. Do numpad
Is good for me
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I wonder what's the point of touch typing on a numpad, when I can touch type on the number row. No hand movement between rows, and I can alternate hands, thus it has to be faster, at least in theory.
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To be honest, I don't know how skinny some of you guys are, but with my frame, my mouse is no closer to my keyboard now that I'm using a TKL board vs. my Das. My arms are still parallel.
As for why people would use TKL, I suppose it looks cleaner, and could be ergonomic for some people, but that's not the case for me. I was also worried what I would do without a Num Pad since I use it for most number entry, but it's been alright so far.
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The biggest reason for me to like the tenkeyless design more than the full size is that it allows me to have my hands closer to one another since the mouse can go further left. The space i save is also nice and as result its easier to rotate the keyboard (I like to move my chair, and when I do, I rotate the keyboard so that its in front of me)
Not to mention that I dont need the numpad ^^ The number row feels more comfortable for me because when I need to type a number I am typing a lot of letters anyways, so going to the numpad, just for a number isnt too nice (programming job)
This. Plus, I grew up using computers that didn't have a numpad. So, I have never used one. I always think of accountants and secretaries needing the numpad. I had a Commodore Vic 20 at home and we used Apple II, IIe at school up until the end of Elementary School. I had never seen a numpad on a keyboard until I got my Tandy 1000TL when I was about 12.
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I wonder what's the point of touch typing on a numpad, when I can touch type on the number row. No hand movement between rows, and I can alternate hands, thus it has to be faster, at least in theory.
And this too. I am much faster on the number row. When you learn to type you are taught to use the number row anyway.
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I guess it depends on who taught you. Old school, from typewriters, the numrow. On computers from the get go, then it is numpad.
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Learned on the PC. Never used a typewriter.
PCs didn't originally have a numpad (Apple, Commodore)
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I do a lot of accounting work, and the numberpad is a godsend for this type of data entry, especially with the enter key right there. I hate running into non-numberpad keyboards. Makes me wish I carried my M with me that day...
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I can touch type on the numpad. So 104 is ok. TKL is good if you want it compact and light
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I do a lot of accounting work, and the numberpad is a godsend for this type of data entry, especially with the enter key right there. I hate running into non-numberpad keyboards. Makes me wish I carried my M with me that day...
If you need the keypad, then TKL is not for you.
But you could always obtain a cheap USB stand-alone numeric keypad and carry that around with you :)
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Actually, what is tenkeyless? 87key layout? Or anything without a numpad? Is ErgoDox or TypeMatrix 2030 tenkeyless then? Because TM2030 has an embedded numpad with the same grid layout as the "standard" keyboard.
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Actually, what is tenkeyless? 87key layout? Or anything without a numpad? Is ErgoDox or TypeMatrix 2030 tenkeyless then? Because TM2030 has an embedded numpad with the same grid layout as the "standard" keyboard.
TKL is usually an 80% board (87 keys, technically about 83%) i.e. a conventional alpha-numeric section, separate function keys, separate arrow and 6key clusters.
Ergo Dox is a separate category of ergonomic keyboard.
TM2030 is something else again.
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I do a lot of accounting work, and the numberpad is a godsend for this type of data entry, especially with the enter key right there. I hate running into non-numberpad keyboards. Makes me wish I carried my M with me that day...
If you need the keypad, then TKL is not for you.
But you could always obtain a cheap USB stand-alone numeric keypad and carry that around with you :)
I do like the idea of the better centering of a TKL since I do get my right shoulder burning after about 10hrs or so in front of the keys. Although I know those 10hrs would be 16 without the numeric keypad.
I've actually thought about getting a numeric keypad--if IBM made a buckling-spring version of one. I thought they did at one point back in the 1990s, but can't remember anymore.
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Actually, what is tenkeyless? 87key layout? Or anything without a numpad? Is ErgoDox or TypeMatrix 2030 tenkeyless then? Because TM2030 has an embedded numpad with the same grid layout as the "standard" keyboard.
TKL is usually an 80% board (87 keys, technically about 83%) i.e. a conventional alpha-numeric section, separate function keys, separate arrow and 6key clusters.
Ergo Dox is a separate category of ergonomic keyboard.
TM2030 is something else again.
It was a rhetorical question. ~_^
The problem with this thread is that it assumes the 104key layout (aka fullsize) is "normal" and then there's the 87key layout (aka tenkeyless) that is exactly the same, but doesn't have a dedicated numpad on the right. However, many of us use other layouts—either with even fewer keys, or similar to 96key layout, or completely different (ErgoDox master race!).
If tenkeyless means 87key layout, then my answer to OP would be that IMHO there's no point in using that, because there are more compact keyboards with the same amount of useful keys (at least in theory).
If tenkeyless means without numpad, then I have to ask, whether compact ergonomic/point-of-sale keyboards with embedded numpad are tenkeyless, or not.
Either way, grid/columnar layout FTW!
...and naming conventions are a mess.
Maybe the question was just meant as "do you use numpad?"...
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I love the embedded number pad in matrix boards, like TypeMatrix and Ergodox: it just seems to work great! I don't use it constantly, but for certain tasks, like accounting and keying in serial numbers, it is divine.
Incidentally, I once had a "data processing" job that was keying in numbers from paper into a database for eight hours a day. So I guess I used my number pad professionally.
Also, it still frustrates me when touch numpads are arranged like phones, with 1 on top.
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Ergonomic reason are part of the reason why i like tenkeyless and even smaller keyboards but the real reason i prefer small keyboards is because i travel a lot and it is easy to pick up and go with. I can't do that with a regular keyboard. Also, regular size keyboards are harder to store.