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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Lolcakes on Wed, 21 September 2011, 19:08:48
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Hey guys!
So here is the deal.... I really want a topre board. A TKL realforce or a HHKB pro2.
2 Months ago I bought a Filco TKL with blue switches and I am loving it. I do quite a bit of programming, some gaming, every day use etc - I love the feel and the sound I also enjoy.
Topre for me is now like the next thing... i want to have it because it seems so cool on videos. Plus, both HHLB and the realforce boards look so SEXY!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]27019[/ATTACH]
(picture not mine, adding it only to spice up the post)
I suppose I could sell my Filco... but I know I will miss it...I play SC2... I wont be able to do that on a HHKB for example. I really wouldnt like to sell it, its my board, my baby, and it is still very cute.
The reasons why I find the topre boards so attractive to me is because they sound quite sweet, and the looks are nice - I like the white/gray on the realforce more but HHKB's layout is osmething that I might potentially really like - even now I have my Caps lock as a CTRL key on my filco, and I like the compactness.
One big plus for the Realforce though is the F and arrow keys - I use those a lot. Now that I am thinking about it I use the Home and End keys a lot too.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]27018[/ATTACH]
(this pic is mine, thats the... u guessed it...arrow keys)
Anyways, the purpose of this thread is, if possible, for me to convince myself to to save the money - I need them for other things.
So why should I not buy those amazing, sweet sounding boards and save the money to use for other, boring trivial things?
I have come up with a few reasons so far:
1. Im based in England and the keyboardco dont have HHKBs - having to buy one from the US might be a hassle... shipping will take longer, any problems would be more difficult to resolve etc.
2. Regarding the Realforce - the keyboardco do have them, however, I want it in white/gray (cause its more sexy ofc). The only one in white they have is this one http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=794 The US layout doesnt bother me, but its the older model and... I wish it was with all 45g keys
3. Speaking of actuation force - I think I would prefer all 45g, but the white ones from EK are out of stock, which means i should look into HHKB, or try to think if I would like a variable force keyboard.
4. The price...
5. If I manage to convince myself taht there will be a new model coming out, HHKB or a Realforce, not not but in a couple of months, I could be telling myself that I am "waiting" for that future model and that why I am not buying any of the current boards.
A huge part of me is screaming that I should buy both... but that would be really bad for my wallet.
So what do you guys think?
Thanks for reading and thanks for sharing your view/participating in the thread (:
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Just buy me one instead. Win, win.
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I can help.
Your typical HHKB user looks like this.
(Attachment) 27022[/ATTACH]
What is the reason for this phenomena? I a habit of shaving my facial hair and maintaining a decent hair style. Is there something that I am missing?
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The HHKB3 should be out any day now. PFU normally runs on a 2 year development cycle. The Silent doesn't count (unless you want to slice off your arm and pay THAT price).
Really? that really does get me excited! A feature I would like is... gray key caps with the same tint as the Realforce ones! And dedicated home/end buttons! So i guess I can have this motivate me. And if it does come around Christmas I could treat myself with this beauty! (I promise I will continue to shave my facial hair)
@kl Sure just name which one you want ^^
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I can help.
Your typical HHKB user looks like this.
(Attachment) 27022[/ATTACH]
that's what happens when you spend all your money on a topre keyboard and can't buy a razor.
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The other reason is you would be rewarding design engineers that think DIP switches are cool.
But they kind of are, no? I so wish I was able to have my Caps lock of my filco as CTRL on hardware level... just by flippinga DIP switch. Damn ppl at university, they dont allow me to make registry changes to the computers there........ WHY ? O:
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Funny, I was just about to make the same thread. Might as well post here.
Don't get me wrong, I love my variable weighted Browns/Ergo Clears poker...but I want something a bit smoother and quieter.
I just can't get my head around a $300 asking price for one.
Convince me why I should/shouldn't buy one please!
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Springy glory my ass.
Lolcakes, you can run AutoHotKey as a portable executable, meaning you don't have to install it. This is what I did on one of my workstations in my office, where I don't have admin access, and they weren't real keen on me doing a registry remap.
But tomorrow, I get to fight them over the remap, since it fundamentally works better for me.
On topic, the HHKB is totally awesome, and ripster is making **** up with that picture. Everyone I know with a HHKB (and I know quite a few) are sysadmins or faculty, mostly in academia. Mostly clean shaven, or at least properly trimmed. There are definitely compromises, though I feel they are worth it for the feel and the portability.
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There are definitely compromises, though I feel they are worth it for the feel and the portability.
Compromises? I suppose you mean outlay and layout?
lolseewhatididthar
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Springy glory my ass.
Lolcakes, you can run AutoHotKey as a portable executable, meaning you don't have to install it. This is what I did on one of my workstations in my office, where I don't have admin access, and they weren't real keen on me doing a registry remap.
Thanks I will try that! I am thinking maybe my reson for not bying a HHKB now is so that I can wait for the HHKB3. Do you also agree that it should be out any time now? Baybe it is going to give me just enough time to acquire more money (=
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Thanks I will try that! I am thinking maybe my reson for not bying a HHKB now is so that I can wait for the HHKB3. Do you also agree that it should be out any time now? Baybe it is going to give me just enough time to acquire more money (=
Remember that the HHKB3 will push the HHKB2 prices down.
Does anybody really think that there's any more room for improvement?
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Compromises? I suppose you mean outlay and layout?
lolseewhatididthar
Looking at a picture of a HHKB i am thinking that I can probably get used to pressing Fn K and Fn < to use my home/end keys.
Look at the force curve! Glorified rubber dome if you ask me. What the Topre fanboi calls "smooth" is really mushy compared to the springy glory that is Cherry MX!
I am wondering this... how spring-y are topre switches when you release the keys? i really how my cherry switches jump back into position as soon as I release the key - in that aspect RD seem very sluggish.
I saw some ripometer action on topre switches by ripster with and without the springs in the topre switches and the difference was very small when pressing down. Is it possible the prong to be more about returning the key into up position faster when released?
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Looking at a picture of a HHKB i am thinking that I can probably get used to pressing Fn K and Fn < to use my home/end keys.
What do you use your Home/End keys for? I've just realised I've never used 'em...
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Unless you program in emacs/vim the hhkb layout isn't really a great layout for programmers IMHO.
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Plus the fact that the HHKB isn't (although I could be wrong) available with the UK layout. That would seriously annoy me.
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What do you use your Home/End keys for? I've just realised I've never used 'em...
Every time i need to go to the top of a page... or to the bottom of a page. Useful when you want to go to the top of your code where your declarations are... or just to the top of a web page.
I find scrolling a lot with the mouse wheel so exhausting ^^ I use PgUP/ Down quite a bit for the same reason (:
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Unless you program in emacs/vim the hhkb layout isn't really a great layout for programmers IMHO.
I don't do programming anymore so I wouldn't be too worried about that...but how suitable is it for just text editing and typing?
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I don't do programming anymore so I wouldn't be too worried about that...but how suitable is it for just text editing and typing?
It really all depends on the individual person...some love it, some hate it.
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i started off with a blue mx poker, but wasn't quite satisfied and decided to get a hhkb pro 2 next. i was really disappoined at how it felt like just an antiquated expensive rubberdome. if you want a cleaner feel, get cherry reds (or ghettoreds). you can then proceed to throw your money at modded keycaps, if you're into looks, but it'll still be way cheaper than buying a topre.
as a side-story, hp are said to have had really good chiclet-style keyboards on their laptops. after i got the blue poker, i suddenly started to dislike how the keys of my hp felt. with the hhkb as my main keyboard the hp keys felt good again. that says something about the quality of the keys on the hhkb, right? (i'm really happy with my ghettoreds now)
and i wouldn't worry much about layout. as someone mentioned, you can use autohotkey (or similar tools) to remap anything to your liking, especially if you're a programmer.
e:
if you feel like my experience won't apply to you and you absolutely have to try a topre yourself, get a used one off geekhack, so you can resell it for minimum loss afterwards.
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I think that Lolcakes should keep his Filco Tenkeyless with blues and outfit it with nicer key caps: either vintage double-shot Cherry key caps or from one of the several groups buys.
Why:
* Looks and coolness factor seems to be the biggest reason to get a Topre.
* The need for arrow keys and arrow cluster (very useful when programming .. and you are not using emacs or vi)
* Tactile switches are better for typing than linear. (my subjective opinion from having used Cherry Blacks at work)
The biggest problem might be to get keys for the ISO layout (group buy) or the Filco arrangement (Cherry corp. keys have a different stem position for the Caps Lock/Ctrl). Most key caps that you can buy are for the ANSI layout.
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Why:
* Looks and coolness factor seems to be the biggest reason to get a Topre.
* The need for arrow keys and arrow cluster (very useful when programming .. and you are not using emacs or vi) - arrow keys on my TKL - well probably comes in handy for *some* games
* Tactile switches are better for typing than linear. (my subjective opinion from having used Cherry Blacks at work)
- Agree 100% with the Topre fetish, I just could not justify it
- The arrow cluster - well I program for a living in Linux and I use VIM (a better vi) and therefore I use the home row to navigate.
- Sorry no idea about linearity - still a Newbie, listen to the seniors on this
The biggest problem might be to get keys for the ISO layout (group buy) or the Filco arrangement (Cherry corp. keys have a different stem position for the Caps Lock/Ctrl). Most key caps that you can buy are for the ANSI layout.
That is exactly why I went ANSI - even though I'm a newbie to GH and I live in the UK.
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I think that Lolcakes should keep his Filco Tenkeyless with blues and outfit it with nicer key caps: either vintage double-shot Cherry key caps or from one of the several groups buys.
Why:
* Looks and coolness factor seems to be the biggest reason to get a Topre.
* The need for arrow keys and arrow cluster (very useful when programming .. and you are not using emacs or vi)
* Tactile switches are better for typing than linear. (my subjective opinion from having used Cherry Blacks at work)
The biggest problem might be to get keys for the ISO layout (group buy) or the Filco arrangement (Cherry corp. keys have a different stem position for the Caps Lock/Ctrl). Most key caps that you can buy are for the ANSI layout.
I was so impressed by the looks of litster's filco! Hes got double shot key caps from a group buy. I think I will definitely participate in the Group buy 4 because those key caps are so awesome. However its gonna take so much time ):
I am thinking that if keyboardco get some of them white TKL realforce boards with all 45g switches I might as well buy it. I will keep the Filco.. its too nice to sell. I will then have two sweet boards and an empty wallet ^^. However the kayboard co dont have white all 45g realforce boards so I am safe for now.
As for the layout, I think i dont *need* UK layout...
I wish I was able to try a topre button somewhere
Edit:
That is exactly why I went ANSI - even though I'm a newbie to GH and I live in the UK.
I think ANSI layout is probably superior... I like the idea of a bigger left shift and that enter... i dont need it to be so big ^^
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Looking at a picture of a HHKB i am thinking that I can probably get used to pressing Fn K and Fn < to use my home/end keys.
I thought I could too, but found it was too much of a pain over time. Now I'm much happier with a Realforce tenkeyless. I get the benefit of physical navigation and F keys, can remap caps lock to ctrl for all my Emacs needs and all while enjoying Topre's excellent keyswitches on a keyboard that's still quite compact. It's the best keyboard I've found yet.
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Whereas I've actually mapped the HHKB function layer onto my other UNIX layout keyboards, using RControl as the layer switch (using linux). Because once you get used to using it, it feels weird not having it.
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I can help.
Your typical HHKB user looks like this.
(Attachment) 27022[/ATTACH]
It's true that I haven't shaved in a while. Though I can't grow much of a beard.
Every time i need to go to the top of a page... or to the bottom of a page. Useful when you want to go to the top of your code where your declarations are... or just to the top of a web page.
I find scrolling a lot with the mouse wheel so exhausting ^^ I use PgUP/ Down quite a bit for the same reason (:
Spacebar w/ shift, my friend.
Remember that the HHKB3 will push the HHKB2 prices down.
Does anybody really think that there's any more room for improvement?
The only thing I really miss is the right ctrl. With that and an extra Fn key on the left side, it would be much better. It made me consider the HHKB Pro JP layout, but the backspace, enter, and right shift are just wrong. The smaller spacebar may have been tolerable.
The HHKB3 should be out any day now. PFU normally runs on a 2 year development cycle. The Silent doesn't count (unless you want to slice off your arm and pay THAT price).
I think I inadvertently promised them the soul of my firstborn. Oh, well. That's something for future hcry4 to worry about. I don't envy that guy.
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Do not get a HHKB but do get a Topre Realforce. HHKB is a Topre that is both more expensive and less enjoyable.
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I second the tenkeyless Realforce. Fantastic keyboards for everything. I like the uniform weight on the two I have, but I've not tried the variable ones.
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We're not really helping him NOT buy a Topre.
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OP, you are just trying to justify your desire of getting one huh? If you got the money, WHY NOT? Resell it if you end up not liking it, you won't lose too much of the original value.
If you are a budget minded person, cost alone should have stop you from getting the topres.
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As a matter of fact, I have my 103UB for sale - $200 OBO. Hit me up on PM if you want it.
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IF you are concerned about ping and noise and such get the $550 Silent version. The Topre pings a bit so that is something else to be concerned about. A bit. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?21478-slight-ringing-soud-normal-for-realforce-topre-boards-normal)
Type-S "pings"/rings about the same as the regular one.
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Type-S "pings"/rings about the same as the regular one.
Well, that completely invalidates the extra $200. Fail.
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That's surprising. I would have thought the foam ring would dampen the upSnap!
They said 30% or something. It's quieter, yes.
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ping* pinG* ppipipiping* OMG!! my ears, my ears!!
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On keyboards with the REAL ringing issue, you can hear it in the next room.
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He should close this thread, buy a Topre, then open a new one lauding his new purchase and those who helped him decide.
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Stop visiting GH so you'll loose interest in keyboards = saves you tons of money.
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Dear OP. Have I mentioned the Topre fart (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?5732-Tacky-sticky-sound-after-HH-bottom-out.)?
oh man seriously - "Topre fart" - ripster I have to say I really enjoy reading some of your posts... I don't think this place would be the same without you :D
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I should have called it the Topre Whoopie Cushion.
Comes from the air escaping these channels.
(Attachment) 27087[/ATTACH]
or the Topueef
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Possible side-effects of Topre may include:
- Increased risk of obesity due to lack of exercise stemming from a newfound love of typing
- Skepticism and/or jealousy from friends, family, significant others
- 30% higher risk of becoming addicted to World of Warcraft
- giddiness
- Chronic Wallet Fatigue
- Buyer's remorse
In most side-effects were mild. Do not take Topre if you are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant.
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The "sticking" issue, and the misaligned key caps seem pretty dreadful... I wouldn't like any of that. If i bought it from the US it would be such a major hassle to RMA or resolve things from a distance... This is why I would prefer to buy from the keyboardco, they seem nice and local (If i do buy,but its best that I dont).
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=794 This is the only one in white that I can get from these people, at the moment at least. I suppose the Realforce 86U suffers from the same problems anyways.
Thanks for the responses guys. Ripster in particular does a good job in making me like the idea of a topre board less, which might end up being a healthy thing for my wallet. :p
I dont like the feel of the rubber dome keyboards... but again before my Filco with Blues ive had only £10 keyboards - they feel so slow when pressing down and when they are supposed to snap back into position after release. I am trying to find out how different the topres are compared to my previous RD boards - my guess is very different but still confusion is taking over.
As for gaming - im already addicted to SC2 and have 100% chance of getting addicted to Diablo 3 when it is released :P I have no idea how SC will feel on the Realforce... i dont know how fast keys snap back into position.
An idea -
If somebody has a high speed camera and a topre and a cherry board maybe they could record and determine how long it takes for those different switches to snap back into position after being released. I like how springy the cherry's feel, the faster they spring back the better (-:
I wonder how many HHKB type S do i have to NOT buy in order to be able to buy a high speed camera?
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In fairness to Topre switches using the same technology as rubber dome keyboards, it is a bit like comparing a Ferrari to a Pinto: they both run on four wheels and burn gasoline, but that's where the similarities end.
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Haven't read the rest of the thread so I don't know if this has already been stated...
I use a Realforce 86UB for work and the topre switches are so light after the activation point that it's really hard not to bottom out. This plus the combination of a metal plate mount leads to painful fingertip banging as the key bottoms out if you aren't light enough on it.
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I like my Realforce 86U, but I like cherry browns a bit more. I bet the cherries last longer.
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Did I mention yet you can buy 5 Rosewill RK-9000s for one HHKB-S?
Or 3 very diverse keyboards: A Kinesis Advantage, a Filco, and a Poker.
HHKB == way WAY overpriced, and it has just about the same features as the Poker. If it were programmable/etc it would be much more desireable, but as it stands, I'd much rather have a Kinesis Advantage, a Poker, and a Filco or an IBM SSK for the price of one HHKB-S.
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Or a clean used Realforce 86U, a Contour Design RollerMouse Pro, a Wang 724 and a couple of PS/2-to-USB adapters. Which is like half my stash.
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Seriously, just man up and save some bucks if you are in any sort of doubt. The economy is bad enough already. Learn to save money. kid.
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I really go back and forth on my favorites - Realforce 87U Silent, Poker with Reds (broke my first one - now waiting on a replacement to arrive) and my Filco with reds.
I would love to have a silent HHKB but the price is just ridiculous and I would totally miss the arrow keys. Even as much as I love my Poker, going back and forth to the embedded arrows is a bit of a pain.
JPC - glad to see you still like the 86U.
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Spacebar w/ shift, my friend.
My God, how did I not know about that - Ctrl + Space as well!
While I'm still sitting at work waiting for my damn SGS2 to copy crap over to it...
I've been eyeing off a HHKB for a couple of days now, and to be honest this thread hasn't given me much information to swing me either way.
Some of you have said they feel like springy domes, some of you have said they are far smoother than that.
What is in my head is that I want a very very smooth switch to type on. The only time I've used a good rubber dome lately is when I went over to my friends place on Tuesday - old Logitech dome. It was okay I suppose, had a good snap to it, but really if that's what Topres are like I believe i'm better off looking elsewhere.
Really, I can't justify the price - I could afford it I guess, but I just can't see that it's what I'm looking for.
But the fact that Pokers are available in Reds gives me some sort of thought. I'm thinking that maybe that those might be what I'm looking for.
So what do people think of Reds versus the Topres?
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So what do people think of Reds versus the Topres?
My favourite boards is my Filco Blue so that needs to be taken into account. If noise is not a problem then the tactile and audible feedback is what I find the most satisfying when I really want to get some work done. That speeding train click-clack tells me work is happening and gives me a sense of 'getting things done'. Take that into account.
My Poker with reds and o-ring mod is more fun to type on and to play with. The layers are fun (if sometimes slightly difficult to get my fingers working on - if I used the Poker as my main board then I reckon I'd get the muscle memory but it is not natural and not likely to be given the usage pattern I expect for this board.) The Poker does feel a little fragile and I do expect that one day I'll go to use it and one or more keys will be dead or, more likely, the connection will have broken (see the relevant thread from nhwhaup). I just don't trust it as an all-day pounder at work.
The Realforce 86u is somehow more 'grown up' and more boring but massively better built and solid. The RF is my board for work where I was sick of the complaints about the noise complaints for Filco Blues and Browns. The people who complain about such things are often very experienced whiners and whingers so the bosses cave in to them just to make the tedious little twit go away. So the Topre is my all-day pounder because I have come to trust it and it is definitely nicely built (it would want to be for 2.5 times the price of a Poker.
I would love to try a plated board (Filco / Leopold) with Reds to see how that fits into the picture (how much of the Poker stuff is due to PCB mounting?). Hard to find one when in a buying mood (after all I don't need another board).
But for my workplace the RF is the right option for right now.
The comments about the Topres being like a rubber dome are kind of true but also misleading. Perhaps an exceptional RD board might be 70-80% of a Topre for the first couple of months but then you are likely to start feeling the RD show signs of getting tired and not being quite what it was. At that point the Topre is just starting to come into it's stride. The differences in material and craft applied to the RF mean that even if the technology is somewhat similar the results in use are not.
I would join with others here. Buy yourself a Topre and give it a decent tryout. If you really don't see the benefit you should be able to sell it on with the difference being in the range of $50 bucks. It's not a huge gamble if you are truly interested in being forever after being able to happily buy $100 Leos or similar in sure knowledge that, for you, a $250-300 Topre is not the right answer. Don't die wondering.
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Don't get an HHKB. Mine has wobbly keys. It will most likely annoy you a lot since you just spent 300 on a keyboard.
I'm actually not annoyed at all with my wobbly keys, still feels the same.
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But the fact that Pokers are available in Reds gives me some sort of thought. I'm thinking that maybe that those might be what I'm looking for.
So what do people think of Reds versus the Topres?
Reds are nice, but for some reason I find the reds on the poker do not feel as good as the ones on my filco. Probably a build quality thing I guess. I don't really know. Topre is better, but you really need to try both to see which you like more.
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I like "springy". After all, that is what makes a Mechanical switch mechanical.
+1
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I wish I was able to try a topre button somewhere
Try one here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?11853-Topre-Keychain-world-trip....) in SirClicksAlot's mailing list.
Seriously.
Try it before you spend $300 on a board full of them. I was severely disappointed with the thing when it made it's way to my door. Maybe one day I'll muster the interest to post the picture of it you're supposed to...
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I actually like the Poker with red switches better than my Filco with reds. Although the Filco definitely is built for the long haul compared to the Poker, I really like the sound of the reds bottoming out on the PCB board. Normally I hate the bottoming out sound and use the soft landing pads on both of my Filcos. There is just something about the Poker that I really do like.
I also use the RealForce as my main keyboard at work. I have the Silent 87U with the embedded number pad but I rarely use it and tend to use a separate RealForce number pad when I'm crunching numbers. The RealForce is definitely a workhorse.
As I mentioned before, I would love to try out a silent HHKB but only if it had arrow keys. Maybe the version III will have the arrows.......
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The Japanese layout Type-S has arrow keys, but the overall layout blows.
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The discussion is good and all. As you can see, everyone has their own favorites. The best way to decide what is best for you is to try a board for at least a full day. As long as you are willing to lose a few bucks and shipping, you can always resell your keyboard her on GH.
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A single switch does not a fair assessment make. Pushing on a single Topre switch doesn't feel like anything. Typing on a keyboard full of them though feels distinctly different than anything else.
Similarly with a Model M, any Cherry switch, etc. You really have to type on it, and only it, for at least a week, full time, before you make any assessments at all. Anyone who tells you otherwise is pushing an agenda.
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Hum, I told him to try a day. What agenda might I be pushing ;-)
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litster, I wasn't responding to you specifically, and I was exaggerating for emphasis. But to be honest, a day is the bare minimum, in my mind.
But a single switch, a few times? That's basically useless.
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litster, I wasn't responding to you specifically, and I was exaggerating for emphasis. But to be honest, a day is the bare minimum, in my mind.
But a single switch, a few times? That's basically useless.
Hehe, I was kidding. Agree that clicking a single switch a few times is not enough to have an opinion. But it is pretty cool to have a single Cherry switch hanging off of your keychain, especially if it is a blue switch :-)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27202&d=1316833310)
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I do like that!
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off topic: Is that keychain yours? How did you get that keychain? Did you make it?
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Yes, I made it myself. I have a lot of spare Cherry switches. I just bend the legs in so they don't stick out, pair it with a spare top-row keycap, and tie a cellphone charm string thinge that I bought from a local craft store (a pack of 4 I think). I made a few of them and gave them to my family and a friend. I can keep playing with it and making noise when I am away from my keyboards.
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hhkb no oldschool, need arrows
Hey guys!
So here is the deal.... I really want a topre board. A TKL realforce or a HHKB pro2.
2 Months ago I bought a Filco TKL with blue switches and I am loving it. I do quite a bit of programming, some gaming, every day use etc - I love the feel and the sound I also enjoy.
Topre for me is now like the next thing... i want to have it because it seems so cool on videos. Plus, both HHLB and the realforce boards look so SEXY!
(Attachment) 27019[/ATTACH]
(picture not mine, adding it only to spice up the post)
I suppose I could sell my Filco... but I know I will miss it...I play SC2... I wont be able to do that on a HHKB for example. I really wouldnt like to sell it, its my board, my baby, and it is still very cute.
The reasons why I find the topre boards so attractive to me is because they sound quite sweet, and the looks are nice - I like the white/gray on the realforce more but HHKB's layout is osmething that I might potentially really like - even now I have my Caps lock as a CTRL key on my filco, and I like the compactness.
One big plus for the Realforce though is the F and arrow keys - I use those a lot. Now that I am thinking about it I use the Home and End keys a lot too.
(Attachment) 27018[/ATTACH]
(this pic is mine, thats the... u guessed it...arrow keys)
Anyways, the purpose of this thread is, if possible, for me to convince myself to to save the money - I need them for other things.
So why should I not buy those amazing, sweet sounding boards and save the money to use for other, boring trivial things?
I have come up with a few reasons so far:
1. Im based in England and the keyboardco dont have HHKBs - having to buy one from the US might be a hassle... shipping will take longer, any problems would be more difficult to resolve etc.
2. Regarding the Realforce - the keyboardco do have them, however, I want it in white/gray (cause its more sexy ofc). The only one in white they have is this one http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=794 The US layout doesnt bother me, but its the older model and... I wish it was with all 45g keys
3. Speaking of actuation force - I think I would prefer all 45g, but the white ones from EK are out of stock, which means i should look into HHKB, or try to think if I would like a variable force keyboard.
4. The price...
5. If I manage to convince myself taht there will be a new model coming out, HHKB or a Realforce, not not but in a couple of months, I could be telling myself that I am "waiting" for that future model and that why I am not buying any of the current boards.
A huge part of me is screaming that I should buy both... but that would be really bad for my wallet.
So what do you guys think?
Thanks for reading and thanks for sharing your view/participating in the thread (:
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Why not to buy? You are deserved the best, aren't you?
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Thank you ripster <3
You have now convinced me after my first board (Leopold til brown black otaku) to not get the hhkb2 that I have been lusting for without trying topre yet.
Time to shop for some keycaps!
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
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Here's one: Topre Realforce keyboards have really tacky labels around the LEDs. I think it's Japanese aesthetics or something.
I figured I'd just remove the label with a penknife and have pure LEDs on grey, but while the label comes off and (thankfully) reattaches cleanly, the LEDs sit low inside the case and there are simply three holes for them, and the translucent label diffuses the light. The label also leaves bits of the writing behind. The label is not removable unless you want to plug the gaping holes in the case :-P
So there, buy Cherry/FILCO/etc for better LED labelling :-) (Or Unicomp, as for a cheap surcharge they'll clean up the LED legend for you and remove their grotesque logo – the end result is very elegant.)
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I have a question about Topre switches: How do they feel when bottoming out? I can't stand the feel of a rubber dome board bottoming out. It actually makes my finger tips hurt thinking about it.
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@daerid — If you can imagine the smoothest, cleanest rubberdome possible, that's Topre. It's basically rubberdome without all the graunch and grind and rattle. It's also a lot lighter. You'll never shake off the rubbery feel. I prefer Cherry MX brown in feel, but MX brown's clack is a bit sharp and jarring.
Compared to Cherry: you don't get the rock hard landing when bottoming out – I'm not sure how you'd compromise there, but the trick with Cherry is to learn to type softly.
Compared to ALPS: ALPS and rubberdome have similar force curves with the strong, early peak, but ALPS switches have a very sharp tactile point that almost stabs your finger, and Topre's tactile point is very soft, like a light buckling spring – basically the opposite.
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@daerid — If you can imagine the smoothest, cleanest rubberdome possible, that's Topre. It's basically rubberdome without all the graunch and grind and rattle. It's also a lot lighter. You'll never shake off the rubbery feel. I prefer Cherry MX brown in feel, but MX brown's clack is a bit sharp and jarring.
Compared to Cherry: you don't get the rock hard landing when bottoming out – I'm not sure how you'd compromise there, but the trick with Cherry is to learn to type softly.
Compared to ALPS: ALPS and rubberdome have similar force curves with the strong, early peak, but ALPS switches have a very sharp tactile point that almost stabs your finger, and Topre's tactile point is very soft, like a light buckling spring – basically the opposite.
Thanks... I was on the fence about it, but you've helped me make the decision. No Topre for me, I hate, HATE, the rubbery landing. I don't type all that hard on my browns (which is why I got rid of the blacks), but I do appreciate the crispness of cherry keys when I do bottom out lightly.
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They are on sale at Geekstuff4U btw. $558 down from $579.
http://www.geekstuff4u.com/happy-hacking-keyboard-professional-type-s.html
Cheaper here (http://www.smartimports.net/HHKBPRO2S/).
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I can help.
Your typical HHKB user looks like this.
(Attachment) 27022[/ATTACH]
Not to mention that you'll start eating the lint from between your toes
[video=youtube;I25UeVXrEHQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ#?&start=110[/video]
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... I do appreciate the crispness of cherry keys when I do bottom out lightly.
So do I.
Wow, just grabbed my blue ALPS keyboard – sore wrists in seconds. The Topre is a little rough on my fingers, but still very easy going compared to the softest of ALPS keyboards (vintage blue complicated). Incidentally ALPS seem to have got the landing right – no rubber landing, but not the hard stop of Cherry. Too bad that I can't use ALPS long without getting sore wrists :-P This has the best sound of any keyboard that I've ever used, and the best feel.
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The only Alps boards I've used are the AT101W's (Alps Black). Haven't tried any of the others, but would love to. What model is yours? The blue one...
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Tulip ATK 030244, 102-key PC/AT with silly layout. I've got an AT102W that I purchased "NIB" (new in (plastic) bag, with free dust and paint spatter) – the keys are graunchy and rough in comparison. Short switchplate black ALPS switches really suck, although they don't sound too bad. Topre on the other hand is so smooth, I can pretty much forgive it being rubbery.
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hhkb too small,
make bad optical impression on desk
Hey guys!
So here is the deal.... I really want a topre board. A TKL realforce or a HHKB pro2.
2 Months ago I bought a Filco TKL with blue switches and I am loving it. I do quite a bit of programming, some gaming, every day use etc - I love the feel and the sound I also enjoy.
Topre for me is now like the next thing... i want to have it because it seems so cool on videos. Plus, both HHLB and the realforce boards look so SEXY!
(Attachment) 27019[/ATTACH]
(picture not mine, adding it only to spice up the post)
I suppose I could sell my Filco... but I know I will miss it...I play SC2... I wont be able to do that on a HHKB for example. I really wouldnt like to sell it, its my board, my baby, and it is still very cute.
The reasons why I find the topre boards so attractive to me is because they sound quite sweet, and the looks are nice - I like the white/gray on the realforce more but HHKB's layout is osmething that I might potentially really like - even now I have my Caps lock as a CTRL key on my filco, and I like the compactness.
One big plus for the Realforce though is the F and arrow keys - I use those a lot. Now that I am thinking about it I use the Home and End keys a lot too.
(Attachment) 27018[/ATTACH]
(this pic is mine, thats the... u guessed it...arrow keys)
Anyways, the purpose of this thread is, if possible, for me to convince myself to to save the money - I need them for other things.
So why should I not buy those amazing, sweet sounding boards and save the money to use for other, boring trivial things?
I have come up with a few reasons so far:
1. Im based in England and the keyboardco dont have HHKBs - having to buy one from the US might be a hassle... shipping will take longer, any problems would be more difficult to resolve etc.
2. Regarding the Realforce - the keyboardco do have them, however, I want it in white/gray (cause its more sexy ofc). The only one in white they have is this one http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=794 The US layout doesnt bother me, but its the older model and... I wish it was with all 45g keys
3. Speaking of actuation force - I think I would prefer all 45g, but the white ones from EK are out of stock, which means i should look into HHKB, or try to think if I would like a variable force keyboard.
4. The price...
5. If I manage to convince myself taht there will be a new model coming out, HHKB or a Realforce, not not but in a couple of months, I could be telling myself that I am "waiting" for that future model and that why I am not buying any of the current boards.
A huge part of me is screaming that I should buy both... but that would be really bad for my wallet.
So what do you guys think?
Thanks for reading and thanks for sharing your view/participating in the thread (:
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I'm using a G80-3000 at work and a Filco TKL (also with MX blues) at home. I'm also lusting after a Topre board but I'm going to be good and save up for it and not put it on credit or just blow the cash on it. I'm going to save a small amount every month and it should be enough to cover the HHK3 when it comes out (I'm not expecting it too soon...) or a Realforce TKL. Topre boards cost serious money to most people - pretty much the food bill for my family for just over two weeks and that is the perspective that counts. On the other hand, if I give up one beer every week towards my goal I am not being totally irresponsible. Sure, the money is the same when I pay for it but it feels better that I do it this way than cancel Christmas or the family holiday, or even worse, not buy my wife a bunch of flowers or dinner once in a while. She is worth more than any keyboard. Besides, I absolutely love my Filco. Like some of the other posts have mentioned, I may be disappointed but I could either re-sell or if I just put it in box and neglect it, it only cost me a beer a week. No big deal.
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If you're not too in love with the idea of getting a HHKB I'd encourage you to consider an 87U. Much cheaper and an easier to use layout. Other than that I feel your pain, ever since I sold my 103U I've been missing that Topre feel. I'd been opening up the elitekeyboards Realforce page at least once a day and staring at the 87UW.
After he got them back in stock I made myself wait for a while not knowing how to justify having so many keyboards but I'm so glad I did. It's become my primary home/gaming board and I brought my cherry blues back to work as my daily driver (much to the chagrin of my coworkers I'm sure).
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I find that the surface of the keys greases up very readily, and with the dark grey the keyboard looks pretty disgusting at times, all oily. Next time you look, the grease has all gone, then it reappears again … Never had anywhere near that problem with black FILCO keys.
The print is nice though – don't know what they've done, looks like they've painted on the letters. I'm waiting for Diatec to realise that "Caps Lock" is two words. I detest cheap pad printing (like in your photo above). I've got an old beige Packard Bell rubberdome which looks dye sub unless you look closely, so maybe it's just modern black keyboards that suffer from the visible dark/shiny reflective halo of pad printing?
Funny how after a weekend with the Acer, the Realforce (at work) was almost too light to use on Monday morning, but now I'm settled with it, my Cherry MX blue at home doesn't even feel tactile in comparison, just like a noisy brown. I'm still really hoping that FILCO Zero comes to the UK (all we have now is TLK US layout, not full 105-key ISO) as I'd love a Fukka keyboard at home.
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Well, I failed. I ended up getting an 87UB 45g (am actually on it right now). I will say that typing on this is much smoother than on Cherry switches, to be honest. The RF keys are much easier on my fingertips when bottoming out, while still not feeling "mushy" like a rubber dome. Very, very nice switch. It may be post-purchase rationalization, but I definitely feel like I enjoy this switch more than the Cherry switches.
I find that the surface of the keys greases up very readily, and with the dark grey the keyboard looks pretty disgusting at times, all oily. Next time you look, the grease has all gone, then it reappears again … Never had anywhere near that problem with black FILCO keys.
Odd, I had that exact problem with my Filco black keys. Although I do see it as well on the 87UB.
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heh. They're great switches – they don't click though, and if that's what you want, elsewhere must you look. I keep my Topre at work where I need a quiet keyboard. I need to get my MX brown FILCO fixed one day – must have been at Keyboardco nearly two months now, lost interest in it after realising how nice Topre was …
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I only bought it so that I could prove it sucked and sell it on, and it did suck, but I left it lying around at work and used it as a spare keyboard from time to time. When my FILCO broke and I sent it off to keyboardco, I grabbed the Realforce as the only half-decent, quiet spare I had around, and grew to really like it. It's a lot more tactile than Cherry (even browns), without the jarring feel of ALPS, though my TP3 is nicely broken in now and feels pretty good. The only mechanical with the same smooth feel as Topre is BS, but that's way too loud for an open plan office.
The problem with Topre is that it's much harder to evangelise as there's no way I'd ever convince anyone to cough up £192 for a keyboard that isn't truly that much better than a cheap Dell (their current model is pretty nice and lightweight and smooth like a Topre, instead of the stiff, mushy garbage they used to ship until a year ago or so).
I'm miffed that most of EK's Topre keys are out of stock – need to get me a red esc and some lavender unprinted arrow keys ...
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Remember, when it comes to high end consumer products the cognitive dissonance effects of post purchase rationalization are strong indeed.
I am definitely going to keep this in mind. I think I'm going to use the RF for a while, and then go back to the Cherry switches and see how I like them.
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Remember, when it comes to high end consumer products the cognitive dissonance effects of post purchase rationalization are strong indeed.
That said, there is some truth in that when it comes to my FILCO brown vs that cheap Dell though ;)
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Yup. However, after a day with the RF, the initial "superiority gap" between it and my Filco has decreased. And, considering that my two CM QuickFire's are exactly the same as my Filco (except for the ugly branding), it's safe to say that price really has nothing to do with quality once you're over the $75 range.
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Serious? A single key costs over 1/3 the price of the whole board?
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I don't consider FILCO vs Topre to be one of quality – just personal preference honestly.
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It's a lot more tactile than Cherry (even browns), without the jarring feel of ALPS, though my TP3 is nicely broken in now and feels pretty good. The only mechanical with the same smooth feel as Topre is BS, but that's way too loud for an open plan office.
Sigh, I read this thread to find some reasons to NOT buy one too :)
I'm really looking for silent BS, which also do not fatigue me and the 45g Topre can be just that.
The only con for me is the USB only plug (the 103 is not avail in ISO layout).
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Sigh, I read this thread to find some reasons to NOT buy one too :)
I'm really looking for silent BS, which also do not fatigue me and the 45g Topre can be just that.
The only con for me is the USB only plug (the 103 is not avail in ISO layout).
The is a full-size iso keyboard. Look at thekeyboardco.com
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The is a full-size iso keyboard. Look at thekeyboardco.com
USB and not fixed 45g.
But price is ok and i am going to order the filco brown IT from them anyway.
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Why is the TKL RF so much more expensive than the 103? Because EK can get away with selling it at that price? What makes the hhkb-s worth an extra 150? some foam?
Topre is an overpriced super high end rubber dome
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Why is the TKL RF so much more expensive than the 103? Because EK can get away with selling it at that price? What makes the hhkb-s worth an extra 150? some foam?
Topre is an overpriced super high end rubber dome
Everything you say there is spot on. Still love my HHKB Though.
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Why is the TKL RF so much more expensive than the 103? Because EK can get away with selling it at that price? What makes the hhkb-s worth an extra 150? some foam?
Topre is an overpriced super high end rubber dome
Same can be said with anything high-end.
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Everything you say there is spot on. Still love my HHKB Though.
Yeah. I still want one :p