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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 24 October 2011, 01:26:16

Title: Appreciation
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 24 October 2011, 01:26:16: The appreciation in value of mechanical keyboards over the last few years is great. I've more than made up the initial cost of purchase on most of my boards. Glad I got into this stuff back in 2008 when no one gave a crap. It's like investing, for geeks! And more fun.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: flyball on Mon, 24 October 2011, 01:29:44: it's immoral to buy a keyboard to flip it.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: Quarzac on Mon, 24 October 2011, 01:34:02: Quote from: flyball;437812
it's immoral to buy a keyboard to flip it.
Then I guess I'm an immoral person. I made $200+ off flipping SSKs. I would never condemn anyone for doing the same. I just wish I got into the business when Model Ms and other boards were a dime a dozen.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 24 October 2011, 08:06:13: I didn't do it *for* flipping. I bought every keyboard I own either to try out a switch or because I thought I'd like it. Now that I have a keyboard that suits me just about perfectly I don't need all these others. I'll just keep my Noppoo and one of my Ms. Who could ask for anything more? (Ira Gershwin apparently)
Title: Appreciation
Post by: noodles256 on Mon, 24 October 2011, 08:45:58: Quote from: flyball;437812
it's immoral to buy a keyboard to flip it.

=[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
Title: Appreciation
Post by: kaiserreich on Mon, 24 October 2011, 10:53:13: (http://i.imgur.com/oeUe8.png)

Am I doing it right?
Title: Appreciation
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Mon, 24 October 2011, 11:36:30: (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uD4WSsIpwuM/SgilZkl3a4I/AAAAAAAABJs/X1c-4WH_RxQ/s400/A_Tip_of_the_Hat_by_jollyjack.jpg)

Thank'ee kindly.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: AKIMbO on Mon, 24 October 2011, 11:48:19: Quote from: kaiserreich;437975
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/oeUe8.png)

Am I doing it right?

Lol urdoinitrite!
Title: Appreciation
Post by: Bry on Mon, 24 October 2011, 14:41:27: Quote from: flyball;437812
it's immoral to buy a keyboard to flip it.
（╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Title: Appreciation
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 25 October 2011, 00:07:22: I get it: He's flipping it like a table.

We discussed the ethics of intellectual property in Philosophy club tonight, and we determined that it's really no unethical to do that (based on what one considers true ownership). Just like I'd prefer to sell keyboards strictly to end-users, I have no trouble with others profiting.

It's all based on ripster's favourite graph :p If the person flipping can sell it, then it's worth that much. If not, then it isn't. I always look out for a good deal, but I only flip things at small profit to help my friends who need it.

Like, I'll get one of them to sell a good acquisition of mine at a profit, and split the profits with them. I do this when they don't have a job. I get the bonus of not having to do any work, and he gets to eat this week. Everyone profits.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: whiskerBox on Tue, 25 October 2011, 01:04:12: There is nothing wrong with flipping stuff. I have been buying and selling guitars and amps for years and I don't see anything wrong with it. If people didn't hunt these things down to flip on the market then they would still be sitting collecting dust somewhere.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: flyball on Tue, 25 October 2011, 03:51:09: Quote from: dorkvader;438649
I get it: He's flipping it like a table.

We discussed the ethics of intellectual property in Philosophy club tonight, and we determined that it's really no unethical to do that (based on what one considers true ownership). Just like I'd prefer to sell keyboards strictly to end-users, I have no trouble with others profiting.

It's all based on ripster's favourite graph :p If the person flipping can sell it, then it's worth that much. If not, then it isn't. I always look out for a good deal, but I only flip things at small profit to help my friends who need it.

Like, I'll get one of them to sell a good acquisition of mine at a profit, and split the profits with them. I do this when they don't have a job. I get the bonus of not having to do any work, and he gets to eat this week. Everyone profits.
except accepting keyboard speculators into the market does nothing but artificially inflate demand, driving prices up. i guess i'll wait for the giant keyboard bubble to burst when the speculators can't sell their 5 keyboards to 1 person.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 25 October 2011, 09:32:23: I could be wrong, but I'd say the only thing driving up demand is the increase in interest in these keyboards.

For example. In 2007, I was interested in mechanical keyboards. I read up on them, and decided that I didn't want any of the cherry ones available then. I thought I'd like to own one eventually, (well another one, since I had my M, I think). I thought that I'd love one, but couldn't afford $70 for a new mechanical. I filed this want to the back of my mind to a day when I could afford one.

Now, my demand for good keyboards hasn't changed, though my abilities to buy one have.

So, I don't really see how keyboard speculation can drive up demand. If anything, they increase supply, as rare keyboards often become easier to find through their efforts.

This is where I think that graph sort of fails, though.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: flyball on Tue, 25 October 2011, 11:47:12: Quote from: dorkvader;438827
So, I don't really see how keyboard speculation can drive up demand. If anything, they increase supply, as rare keyboards often become easier to find through their efforts.
haha
Title: Appreciation
Post by: Clickey on Tue, 25 October 2011, 17:17:13: Quote from: flyball;438754
except accepting keyboard speculators into the market does nothing but artificially inflate demand, driving prices up. i guess i'll wait for the giant keyboard bubble to burst when the speculators can't sell their 5 keyboards to 1 person.

This.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 25 October 2011, 18:27:31: I have never tried to make money on keyboards, or break even, for that matter.

I have sold quite a few keyboards on ebay, for various reasons, and, yes, there have been times that I have bought keyboards at yard sales or thrift stores for $2 and resold them for $20-40 (after thorough cleaning and testing), but those meager earnings have not even remotely covered my expenditures overall.

The fact that I have had a really nice, well-balanced, lightly-pingy bolt-modded Model M up for well over a month and it won't sell even at $60 proves that there is not really a lot of easy money out there.

My thought is that when I find something that I really like, I want a really top-shelf specimen of it, plus maybe a 2nd for backup, and MAYBE, at most, a 3rd if my son wants one (my teenage daughter wants whatever looks shiny and tiny, and my wife thinks that the best keyboard in the world is whatever Apple manufactured in the past 6 months).

Model Ms are an exception, and I think I need a handful to cover the various changes and possibilities through the years.

But, bottom line, when searching for near-perfection, it often takes buying 3 to get "the one" that really rings your bell.

I would not sell anything on ebay that was not, at the minimum, working properly (except that I once sold a Northgate Omnikey with a bad key, but advertised it as such), and pricing it according to its condition. Alas, I may be the exception, but I try to be fair.

So yes, I have "churned" or "flipped" about 2 dozen keyboards on ebay, but I feel that it was all on the up-and-up, and it has left me with a half-dozen really prime pieces, and a several-hundred-dollar hole in my pocket.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: duncan on Tue, 25 October 2011, 18:45:41: Quote from: dorkvader;438827

Now, my demand for good keyboards hasn't changed, though my abilities to buy one have.

If you weren't going to buy back then your demand was zero.
If you are not a buyer or a seller you are not in the market and have no influence on the market.
Don't confuse 'desire' with 'demand'. Wanting something is not the same as demanding something. You aren't demanding something (in this sense) until you enter the market and express a desire to buy at a given price.
If you are just sitting at home thinking, "I'd like a Porsche one day" you aren't in the market for Porsches. You are just a bystander to the market for Porsches. The day you make a serious bid on a Porsche at an auction you enter the market.

Quote from: dorkvader;438827
So, I don't really see how keyboard speculation can drive up demand.

The speculators are in the market as buyers.
Therefore they increase demand for the good.

Quote from: dorkvader;438827

If anything, they increase supply, as rare keyboards often become easier to find through their efforts.

True. The speculators are also in the market as sellers so they also increase supply.
But, given the price elasticity in the market for luxury goods (like keyboards), the overall effect tends (usually) to be an increase in overall prices.

Quote from: dorkvader;438827

This is where I think that graph sort of fails, though.

I hope the above has helped to clear things up for you a little.

Just to expand the point some more.
I have a few keyboards. They are not for sale. Therefore, while they exist as keyboards, they are not in the market so are not part of the supply side of that graph. I am also not buying keyboards at the moment. Although I am severely tempted to get a White Leopold with Clears to see if the hype has any real basis. But until I pull the trigger this desire for a board is not demand for a board so I have no influence on the market either way (unless my expressed desire causes someone else to go buy a board).

Anyway, micro-economics 101 is over for today. There will be a pop quiz at the end of the week.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: Hak Foo on Tue, 25 October 2011, 19:55:21: If I saw one of the more expensive collector ergo boards (i. e. G80-5000), I'd buy to flip.
Trying to get $30 out of a $2 used 1391401 is not worth it.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: Quarzac on Tue, 25 October 2011, 21:34:04: I ended up here because of flipping boards. I started flipping boards, used them to fund my current boards, and will continue to flip boards. I'll take $20 here, $20 there, as it's better than not having the money at all. While I can see where it could potentially harm the market, I figure the differences I make from these flips is not enough to destroy the market. I just take advantage of people's really low sales, like a SSK or a Filco Tenkeyless for $50. Post shipping, I'll probably end up making $60 on the SSK and $20-$30 on the Filco, if I decide to sell it. I don't know what's going to happen there. However, I know with prices like that, there will never be a time when I can't recoup my initial investment. To me, it's really just a mildly profitable, fun little hobby. I don't know if it's going to cause any sort of industry collapse, just because there are so many of us that own more than one board, or many more than that. It's all about the scale.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: Clickey on Tue, 25 October 2011, 22:41:39: I think there is a big difference between those that discover otherwise destroyed goods (such as at yard sales, charity shops ect) and those that buy keyboards that are already "discovered" trying to make a profit. The first group increases supply, and is basicly the source of most of the market whereas the second does not and only raises prices significantly for users.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 26 October 2011, 18:11:26: Quote from: Clickey;439513
I think there is a big difference between those that discover otherwise destroyed goods (such as at yard sales, charity shops ect) and those that buy keyboards that are already "discovered" trying to make a profit. The first group increases supply, and is basicly the source of most of the market whereas the second does not and only raises prices significantly for users.

My actions raised prices back in 2009 and 2010 since I was increasing demand (in a more direct sense, bidding on keyboards), and now that I'm selling I am increasing supply, driving prices down. Thing is, demand has increased so I can charge higher prices than I bought for in 2009/10. So a $56 KB-7061 sells for $100, a $20 KB-5181 sells for $50, and a $35 MX8000 sells for $50.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: duncan on Fri, 28 October 2011, 08:17:33: Quote from: ripster;439775
I don't like Elitekeyboards raising ClickClack prices, keeping the profits, and calling it socialism.

I think you could do well to go back and re-read that posting by EK.
You seem to have interpreted the socialism bit 180 degrees from how it is written.
Title: Appreciation
Post by: duncan on Sat, 29 October 2011, 06:58:27: Quote from: ripster;441121
Not really. Capitalists make profits. Socialists distribute wealth to the people.

Not really.
"Socialist economies are based upon production for use and the direct allocation of economic inputs to satisfy economic demands and human needs (use value); accounting is based on physical quantities of resources, some physical magnitude, or a direct measure of labour-time.[4][5] Goods and services for consumption are distributed through markets, and distribution of income is based on the principle of individual merit/individual contribution.[6]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

EK is trying to come up with a system of distribution that satisfies the basic human need to own special keycaps taking into account the available physical resources.

It may not be ideal but it describing it as socialist is no worse a definitional match than yours.