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geekhack Marketplace => Great Finds => Topic started by: rodtang on Mon, 28 November 2011, 18:08:50

Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: rodtang on Mon, 28 November 2011, 18:08:50
This (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DataHand-Ergonomic-Keyboard-DH200-Data-Hand-1-475-Rare-Sold-Originally-2100-/110784550514?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item19cb461672) is something I want yet never will get.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: bootstrap on Mon, 28 November 2011, 18:34:15
There was a recent discussion on a similar (used) item (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23763-Ancient-Datahand-on-fleabay). This one is bound to attract interest/comment by Input Nirvana and others.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 28 November 2011, 19:01:36
Looks newer than the last one that we discussed to death.

The hand moulds aren't DIY, which is great.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: rodtang on Tue, 29 November 2011, 02:12:56
And it is buy now so if you want it you should be fast.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: cactux on Tue, 29 November 2011, 02:29:33
600 usd for that no way
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: rodtang on Tue, 29 November 2011, 13:42:17
Quote from: cactux;460523
600 usd for that no way
$599, sure.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 30 November 2011, 02:16:33
Quote from: bootstrap;460291
There was a recent discussion on a similar (used) item (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23763-Ancient-Datahand-on-fleabay). This one is bound to attract interest/comment by Input Nirvana and others.


Dang! I'm one predictable bastard, aren't I? lol

Yea, both of these have been listed multiple times the last month. Sellers were at $1,500 and $1,100 (now at $1,000 and $600). I emailed both with a couple questions about if the units operated and that they were most likely worth substantially less since you may still be able to get the DH-200 from Datahand even though it's considered very obsolete. I was just trying to offer the sellers some helpful info.

I can't imagine anyone who knows anything about Datahand (no matter how desperate they are to have one) buying one of these for anything more than $150 (parts to play with). By parts I'm referring to the optical switches and thats about it. The PCB and firmware are going to be sketchy. If you're a tough guy, you could build your own internals/firmware I guess, but I'm not certain it's worth it. Go to Datahand at that point and get good stuff and have piece of mind.

If things were different for me right now, I might offer $100 so I could at some point use the optical switches for a crazy Datahand experiment, or to save for one of you guys that might want to try something in the future. I will tell you a Datahand is completely different than anything else, and it's very possible if you don't have RSI that you will not go through what it takes to become proficient.  

So be very careful if you decide to buy one of these, have NO expectations, and keep a $200 limit on your craziness. That's about what a crazy night on the town will cost, provided you don't get arrested.

Also, if someone here does buy one, by mid-late 2012 I might be interested to buy it for $100 if you change your mind about dealing with it.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: bootstrap on Wed, 30 November 2011, 06:59:17
@Input Nirvana - Thank you for an informed appraisal of this item's true value.

$599 vs $150 - the difference is huge. But then again, it's eBay - you never know when someone might do something silly.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 30 November 2011, 12:50:47
Quote from: bootstrap;461183
@Input Nirvana - Thank you for an informed appraisal of this item's true value.

$599 vs $150 - the difference is huge. But then again, it's eBay - you never know when someone might do something silly.

Pricing is just my opinion, but obviously no one else seems to think they are worth the asking prices either :) Common sense dictates they are worth no more than $300-$400, and that's assuming you are clueless about what you're doing buying these items AND that they "work" flawlessly.

Ebay sales: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? lol

I'd like someone to get an answer from either of the sellers stating if the units work or not. My guess is that they don't answer because they don't know, and that's because the units are way old and obsolete and need more than just plugging in. Again, why I believe the true value is so low...basically for parts/entertainment.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: geoffff on Thu, 01 December 2011, 22:09:17
I don't think the DH-200 is worth much.  The DH-200 hasn't been sold for over almost 15 years.  It isn't adjustable to fit various hand sizes like the Datahand Pro II / Personal models.

I have been watching "Datahand" on Ebay for a while now, and I don't recall seeing a DH-200 sell.  I use several Datahand keyboards for work & home, and was collecting them for parts until the prices skyrocketed in the last year or so.  

--Geoff (http://octopup.org/computer/datahand)
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 01 December 2011, 22:48:45
Geoff,
Like your Datahand page and the info, great stuff. Love your chair mod!
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 06 December 2011, 12:35:30
This one of the two DH-200 (that looks the better of the two on ebay) sold for $200.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DataHand-Ergonomic-Keyboard-DH200-Data-Hand-1-475-Rare-Sold-Originally-2100-/110784550514?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item19cb461672#ht_500wt_1413

A Datahand Pro II snuck on for a few hours that sold for $400 which seems like a good deal considering the direction prices have been lately.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-Hand-Professional-II-PS2-Keyboard-/220908313179?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item336f295a5b#ht_762wt_1398
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: inaneframe on Tue, 06 December 2011, 23:00:38
Might I be the one to point out the supply / demand curve here and then inquire as to the status of any patents datahand may hold?

So. . . if more people are becoming interested in this technology, shouldn't datahand up production to meet the rising demand?

Any chance for competitors to enter the niche if they do not?
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 07 December 2011, 00:10:17
It's not that more people want a Datahand than before, the units can last over 10 years and be repaired by Datahand. It's that it has always been a very expensive item that is usually used by people that MUST HAVE it in order to type for a career. Some people use it that are not RSI stricken. You can get units from Datahand on production runs, but you can't get one today...you need to wait in line. If you really need it, waiting 10 months is not a good option. The units themselves could sell for as little as $200 if mass produced, but there will not be a market for it at the production level needed to achieve that price point. It will always be a niche product. Datahand holds a number of patents, and has shareholders as part of their business model. They needed to be picked up by several global companies (of the likes of HP, etc.) to provide units mass scale for employees for RSI issues, blah, blah, blah. As far as a China knock-off is concerned, first off, it's still a tiny niche market, and secondly, you can't cut many corners on the Datahand, as it's already a delicate item. It won't take a licking and keep on ticking. Dropping a unit onto a hard floor is a very, very, VERY bad idea :(

Quite a few people that need a Datahand or they can't type, have several. They know they can't order a new one tomorrow if their unit craps out. They sometimes buy them from ebay, working or not, and send them to Datahand so Lynn can recondition/upgrade them. Datahand has a tremendous amount of pride with their products and service. When I put my ad on GH to sell my unit, I got a number of PMs from non-GH members that saw the ad from search engine spiders that had picked it up. So they are constantly on the prowl waiting to pounce :)

Just babbling...hopefully something I said is of use to you.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: inaneframe on Wed, 07 December 2011, 17:42:48
Ah, thanks for the information.  The only reason I ask is for curiosity's sake.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 07 December 2011, 17:58:47
Curiosity+cat=not good

Joking of course!

I've considered Datahand, the product, the company, the market niche, and the track record. If there was a reasonable way I could administer a worthwhile support group, or be involved with Datahand product marketing for people that have a physical need, I would do it. My interest in providing a solution is that high. But I'm fairly confident if the need was there, it would already be filled, so I'm not blazing any new trails in that area.

That's why I know a little more than the average bear :)
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: inaneframe on Thu, 08 December 2011, 21:38:16
There would be plenty of opportunity for you to enter the market if there weren't patents.  Then you could compete based on how sturdy the product was and how much better you could provide support.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Sam on Thu, 08 December 2011, 21:46:31
I bought a Datahand, for multiple reasons, one of which was to explore just how difficult/expensive it would be to produce something similar.  Even ignoring the patent issues, there's a lot of components that make up a Datahand.  It is MUCH more expensive for doing the tooling and to produce than a standard keyboard.  IMHO, it isn't really economically feasible to consider given the current market for such keyboards.  However, as more and more people use keyboards regularly as part of their job/leisure, I can see people coming down with injuries and other conditions that will require such solutions.  It wasn't nearly as common for the general public to use keyboards back when I was young.  These days it's extremely common, so in another 10, 20, or 30 years, I can see the market for these picking up quite a bit.  Combined with possible patent expirations, it might be economically feasible down the road.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: sordna on Thu, 08 December 2011, 23:30:41
Quote from: input nirvana;465571
When I put my ad on GH to sell my unit, I got a number of PMs from non-GH members that saw the ad from search engine spiders that had picked it up. So they are constantly on the prowl waiting to pounce :)


Does this mean you sold it? Your ad is still up!
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: inaneframe on Fri, 09 December 2011, 01:42:24
Quote from: Sam;466874
I bought a Datahand, for multiple reasons, one of which was to explore just how difficult/expensive it would be to produce something similar.  Even ignoring the patent issues, there's a lot of components that make up a Datahand.  It is MUCH more expensive for doing the tooling and to produce than a standard keyboard.  IMHO, it isn't really economically feasible to consider given the current market for such keyboards.  However, as more and more people use keyboards regularly as part of their job/leisure, I can see people coming down with injuries and other conditions that will require such solutions.  It wasn't nearly as common for the general public to use keyboards back when I was young.  These days it's extremely common, so in another 10, 20, or 30 years, I can see the market for these picking up quite a bit.  Combined with possible patent expirations, it might be economically feasible down the road.


Interesting. . . have you ever seen an arcade joystick mechanism?  I mean the REAL ones, not the ones on crappy boards made for consoles.  They have a four switch mechanism on the joystick bottom that are operated with lever type actions.  Now I have never seen the inside of a datahand but perhaps there could be a way to simplify on a similar design?

I don't think that people with RSI or other issues that would drive them to use such a keyboard are necessarily interested in how intricate the board is. . . more that it does the job.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Sam on Fri, 09 December 2011, 09:22:59
No doubt you could make something similar and cut down a little on the cost, but in doing so I would think the result would significantly degrade this keyboard's advantages.  Remember, you're activating many of the switches via a sideways motion.  There's not much physical space there between the fingers, so standard switches won't work due to that and a likely higher activation force.  Then there's all the plastic pieces that need to be custom made, which are quite cheap if produced in quantity, but the tooling (setup) charge will be very significant.

Seems that the company who designed the Datahand has all but given up on selling it, and the most logical reason is that the business doesn't make economic sense.  I'm guessing that the limited production runs are costing quite a bit, and they're not selling them quick enough to make it worth their while.  Otherwise they would have made another batch long ago.  Being they've already paid for all the tooling costs, their only cost is the production run, but they can't even do that.  A whole lot of time, money, effort, and thought went into the Datahand.  It's just a shame that it wasn't more successful for them.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: inaneframe on Fri, 09 December 2011, 17:46:46
I don't know, all you would have to do is use smaller switches (with lighter activation, I'm sure they make them) and a smaller stick than what is used with joysticks.  This picture is from the bottom up looking at a joystick mechanism:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34418[/ATTACH]

As you can see, it has four switches.  Any switches could be made to work with something similar really. . .

I think people will just want something that works and lasts and if they could get that cheaper, they would.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 09 December 2011, 20:53:24
Quote from: sordna;466917
Does this mean you sold it? Your ad is still up!

I have not been diligent with keeping up on some things. I'm horrible at selling stuff, even now when I need cash like nobody's business. A couple GH'ers offered to loan me the cash so I wouldn't have to sell it (isn't that sweet?), and then someone in my life refused to let me sell it, knowing they are hard to find, in new shape, blah blah blah

Sam, your thoughts on Datahand and the programming would be welcome info. Have you looked at my Kinesis Split Mod...any thoughts on that are welcome. You can feel free to use any ideas from it and make a couple million bucks. Just give me one of the keyboards :)
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: geoffff on Sun, 11 December 2011, 22:27:19
Quote from: inaneframe;467426
I don't know, all you would have to do is use smaller switches (with lighter activation, I'm sure they make them) and a smaller stick than what is used with joysticks.  This picture is from the bottom up looking at a joystick mechanism:

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=34418&d=1323472809&thumb=1)


As you can see, it has four switches.  Any switches could be made to work with something similar really. . .

OK, since you bring that up... You've seen the Lego DataHand (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10077) here on geekhack.org, right?  http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10077 (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10077)

(http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/t/Lego-Datahand.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/m/Lego-Datahand.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/t/Lego-Datahand--Hand.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/m/Lego-Datahand--Hand.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/t/Lego-Datahand--Chair.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/m/Lego-Datahand--Chair.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/t/Lego-Datahand--Switches.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/m/Lego-Datahand--Switches.jpg)

-- Geoff
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: inaneframe on Mon, 12 December 2011, 02:17:20
Quote from: geoffff;468619
OK, since you bring that up... You've seen the Lego DataHand (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10077) here on geekhack.org, right?  http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10077 (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10077)

Show Image
(http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/t/Lego-Datahand.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/m/Lego-Datahand.jpg)
Show Image
(http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/t/Lego-Datahand--Hand.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/m/Lego-Datahand--Hand.jpg)
Show Image
(http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/t/Lego-Datahand--Chair.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/m/Lego-Datahand--Chair.jpg)
Show Image
(http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/t/Lego-Datahand--Switches.jpg) (http://octopup.org/img/computer/datahand/m/Lego-Datahand--Switches.jpg)


-- Geoff


No sir, that is the first I've seen of it. . . I was actually thinking of something more sturdy than that (the switches I mean, not merely the fact that it is constructed of legos) though. . . Nifty but flawed.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: sordna on Mon, 12 December 2011, 10:24:29
Here are some good switches mentioned for these kinds of projects:

http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitches/
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: inaneframe on Mon, 12 December 2011, 11:15:32
Bookmarked.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: inaneframe on Mon, 12 December 2011, 21:41:16
Bookmarked, thanks.
Title: [Ebay.com] DataHand DH200
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 18 December 2011, 01:42:02
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270871878663?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1413

Over $400, crazy for what it is. I think he has 2 more of these that may go up for sale.