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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Skoobs on Tue, 29 November 2011, 21:23:07

Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: Skoobs on Tue, 29 November 2011, 21:23:07: just wondering why keyboards opt to leave off the number pad but keep the arrows... why wouldnt you leave off the arrows but keep the number pad? i mean, with the number pad at least you still have arrows. just, you know, hit the number lock key, and your keypad turns into arrows. i would rather have a keyboard with a number pad but no arrows... anyone else wonder about this?
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: nar on Tue, 29 November 2011, 21:41:05: I think it's for the home key cluster (Insert, Delete, Home, End, Page Up, Page Down).

If I had to pick between numpad and those, I'd pick those. The arrow keys just come in free since thats what goes below.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: sam113101 on Tue, 29 November 2011, 21:53:44: I'd be pressing num lock all the time.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: oneproduct on Tue, 29 November 2011, 21:54:49: Numpads also have the home key cluster!

I prefer my poker without either though! I get the arrows and home row cluster in the main cluster and I don't do any kind of work where I need to use a numpad for number entry.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 29 November 2011, 21:57:25: This exact same thread/topic has at least 3 more versions, including one that is mine. You should look for those.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: Skoobs on Wed, 30 November 2011, 03:09:29: Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;461083
This exact same thread/topic has at least 3 more versions, including one that is mine. You should look for those.

damn sun my bad. i cant find them. the search on here dont work so well.

is there a discussion in the other threads? i would love a link. cuz once again i cant find them.

Quote from: oneproduct;461081
Numpads also have the home key cluster!

I prefer my poker without either though! I get the arrows and home row cluster in the main cluster and I don't do any kind of work where I need to use a numpad for number entry.

im thinking about picking up a poker. worried i wont like it for some reason. probably because of the PCB mount. is it a nice, quality PCB mount job?
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 30 November 2011, 09:11:19: I wouldn't know what makes a PCB mount job good or bad sadly.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: sam113101 on Wed, 30 November 2011, 10:44:33: You still have a number row, why would you want a numpad?
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: laffindude on Wed, 30 November 2011, 11:26:51: Quote from: Skoobs;461057
. anyone else wonder about this?

No. There are plenty of boards without arrow cluster but have numpad.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: whiskerBox on Wed, 30 November 2011, 14:37:48: Personally I use the arrows quite a bit, but it might be interesting to have a numpad above them and get rid of the home key cluster. I like home they have a integrated but not dedicated numpad on the 87U as that seems useful but not in the way.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: N8N on Wed, 30 November 2011, 17:45:26: What might actually be a really cool layout would be a conventional numpad but with the nav layer changed to match the traditional nav/arrow keys rather than the different one that is conventionally used. As in, if you overlaid the nav cluster and arrows directly on the numpad, the secondary functions of the numpad would correspond exactly. You'd have to add an extra num lock key somewhere (directly to the right of "pause/break?" Since there'll still be another row of keys there anyway) though as then the traditional location for num lock would now be insert. You'd also have to use a numpad with a "double zero" key. The advantage would be that you wouldn't lose the numpad enter for those that use it while on the mouse, and also you'd have both the familiar numpad layout and also the familiar nav cluster, BUT the whole keyboard would only be 3/4" wider than a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.

Now that I think about it, that's genius. Someone please build me a keyboard like this! I use the nav cluster; I use the numpad; I never ever use the navigation layer of the numpad... So...
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: shrap on Wed, 30 November 2011, 21:09:08: Quote from: N8N;461557
What might actually be a really cool layout would be a conventional numpad but with the nav layer changed to match the traditional nav/arrow keys rather than the different one that is conventionally used. As in, if you overlaid the nav cluster and arrows directly on the numpad, the secondary functions of the numpad would correspond exactly. You'd have to add an extra num lock key somewhere (directly to the right of "pause/break?" Since there'll still be another row of keys there anyway) though as then the traditional location for num lock would now be insert. You'd also have to use a numpad with a "double zero" key. The advantage would be that you wouldn't lose the numpad enter for those that use it while on the mouse, and also you'd have both the familiar numpad layout and also the familiar nav cluster, BUT the whole keyboard would only be 3/4" wider than a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.

Now that I think about it, that's genius. Someone please build me a keyboard like this! I use the nav cluster; I use the numpad; I never ever use the navigation layer of the numpad... So...

Inverted-T arrow arrangement might not be as beneficial when there are keys surrounding it, since there's no separation between the arrows and the nav cluster anymore.

I prefer just using num lock off since the configuration is pretty standard. I've already weaned myself off of the arrow/nav cluster layout. It's not optimal, of course (large Insert key? Why??)

Here's a previous thread: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20232-compact-mechanical-keyboard-a-case-for-the-IBM-PC-AT-layout

I think your idea is in there somewhere.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Wed, 30 November 2011, 23:45:33: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?16640-tenkeyless

is mine.

The inverted t layout is useful during its use, not only when finding it. Especially when using it during RTS' or whatnot. I would still want it in that layout regardless of physical placement.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: Skoobs on Thu, 01 December 2011, 03:12:29: Quote from: ripster;461234
Skoobs will get no links from me until he apologizes to ClickClack.

nothing agains clickclack, i think his work is great. but its not worth 170 dollars for two of his key caps. sorry. thats flat out retarded lol

Quote from: ripster;461234
And our newest Geekhacker from India.

that was not directed towards the guy from india, it was directed at the guy who said he should buy from china, "which is quite near [him]"

it seemed like a ridiculous statement. are you thinking i made a cab joke because the guy was from india? that didnt occur to me until just now...

Quote from: laffindude;461314
No. There are plenty of boards without arrow cluster but have numpad.

plenty? haha

in other words "i dont like the idea, so although ive only seen one, that one is more than enough"?

or is there actually a lot of them?
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: Skoobs on Thu, 01 December 2011, 03:17:18: Quote from: Daniel Beaver;320042
The Model F also fits this criterion, though it has other layout quirks.

Show Image
(http://lowendmac.com/thomas/09tt/model-f/005.jpg)

why, god, why? f keys on the left hand side? ewww
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: laffindude on Thu, 01 December 2011, 03:35:56: There (http://www.zippy.com/K_PRODUCT.asp?lv_rfnbr=2) are (http://www.logitech.com/en-in/keyboards/keyboard/devices/wireless-keyboard-k230) plenty (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/color-collection/devices/keyboard-k360) of (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?C=1158&ID=1681) keyboards (http://www.i-rocksusa.com/products/KR-6421-BK.html), even (http://www.i-rocksusa.com/products/KR-6230.html) mechanical (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/POS/7000/index.htm) and (http://www.adesso.com/en/home/keyboards/mechanical-keyboard/306-mkb-125b.html) classic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ibm_px_xt_color.jpg) flavors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AT_keyboard.jpg).
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: Skoobs on Thu, 01 December 2011, 03:42:23: Quote from: laffindude;461843
There (http://www.zippy.com/K_PRODUCT.asp?lv_rfnbr=2) are (http://www.logitech.com/en-in/keyboards/keyboard/devices/wireless-keyboard-k230) plenty (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/color-collection/devices/keyboard-k360) of (http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?C=1158&ID=1681) keyboards (http://www.i-rocksusa.com/products/KR-6421-BK.html), even (http://www.i-rocksusa.com/products/KR-6230.html) mechanical (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/POS/7000/index.htm) and (http://www.adesso.com/en/home/keyboards/mechanical-keyboard/306-mkb-125b.html) classic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ibm_px_xt_color.jpg) flavors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AT_keyboard.jpg).

why am i seeing awkwardly placed arrow keys in all of those keyboards? lol

i mean like the new leopold one:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]33600[/ATTACH]

notice how the delete is moved up next to the print screen key. this is l33t as heck.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 01 December 2011, 03:53:38: I would probably split the "0" key to be able to map the navigation cluster directly onto the numpad. I always hit the left part of it anyhow. And put "Num Lock" to the right of "Pause". I think this would combine the two functionalities in the best way possible. I can see the benefits of a tenkeyless but I will probably never give up completely on the full size layout. I like having dedicated navigational and numerical clusters for tasks with low mouse usage, like programming.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: laffindude on Thu, 01 December 2011, 03:56:44: ^^You have bigger hands than I do if you can reach that while staying on homerow.

^I love my edit cluster.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: fireball87 on Thu, 01 December 2011, 03:59:10: Do you really hit the delete key with your finger on the home row. My hands are way too small to comfortably do that.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: laffindude on Thu, 01 December 2011, 04:17:59: I catch the corner of it with my index finger on the nubbing on J without feeling uncomfortable.
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 01 December 2011, 04:30:05: I find using the "delete" key very sparsely except when I have been arrowing around moments before...

I still like to have it where it is, very close to the arrows =)
Title: why arrows over numberpad?
Post by: Skoobs on Thu, 01 December 2011, 17:59:38: Quote from: Skoobs;461836
why, god, why? f keys on the left hand side? ewww

wow, i did not even notice that the caps lock key is ctrl. lololz that icky.