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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Aerilith on Tue, 10 January 2012, 02:07:11
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Hi,
Recently I tried a keyboard with red switches, and now I have decided that I would like to buy one for myself.
When I first played around with the idea, I had the Noppoo choc Pro in mind - but I figure I'd gather a few suggestions and make a choice based on a more informed background.
I currently have a Razer Blackwidow using Blues. This is my first mechanical board, so I really have no grounds for comparison.
I quite like the build of this board, the caps feel rather solid and there's no noise other than the clicking of the switches.
I am no expert on keycaps, but I like the feel of the ones on the Blackwidow - I also tried a Choc mini (With POM I believe?) and quite enjoyed them.
I like having backlit keys, but if the boards sporting this feature are worse quality all-round, it's not a must.
So, do any of you have any suggestions as to specific boards using red switches?
I would especially like to hear from people who transitioned from using blues to reds, and their opinions - both board-wise and some of the "issues' they might've had at first.
Feel free to ask questions if I left something out.
Thank you!
~Ronni
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Hi,
Recently I tried a keyboard with red switches, and now I have decided that I would like to buy one for myself.
When I first played around with the idea, I had the Noppoo choc Pro in mind - but I figure I'd gather a few suggestions and make a choice based on a more informed background.
I currently have a Razer Blackwidow using Blues. This is my first mechanical board, so I really have no grounds for comparison.
I quite like the build of this board, the caps feel rather solid and there's no noise other than the clicking of the switches.
I am no expert on keycaps, but I like the feel of the ones on the Blackwidow - I also tried a Choc mini (With POM I believe?) and quite enjoyed them.
I like having backlit keys, but if the boards sporting this feature are worse quality all-round, it's not a must.
So, do any of you have any suggestions as to specific boards using red switches?
I would especially like to hear from people who transitioned from using blues to reds, and their opinions - both board-wise and some of the "issues' they might've had at first.
Feel free to ask questions if I left something out.
Thank you!
~Ronni
I haven't transitioned to reds, but have from Blues to browns. For typing I prefer the blues, but the browns are much easier on the ears of my co-workers and my wife. I have tried blacks and can say that the linear feel of the key is nice.
The easiest way to describe the difference in the feel as I see it is as follows:
Tactile -> moderate force till tactile point, then almost 0 force till bottom.
Linear -> light force at start and more force as you approach bottom.
If you type very heavy, bottoming out is a lot easier on a light linear switch (reds). I can really feel the difference between my blues and browns. Browns have a start force of 45g and you pass the tactile point at 55g while the blues have a start of 50g and you pass the tactile point at 60g. That small difference was enough that I was bottoming out for a while on the browns before I learned the difference.
My next board is looking to be a red board to try the light linear switch for gaming. But I type very heavy at times so I am not sure I will be a fan of it for anything other then gaming as even the browns can be a little too light for me for typing at times.
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Well, the Leopolds are nice, but there seems to be a newer, improved model coming soon so I see a lot of recommendations to hold off for the new one.
Filco's are as solid as they come, but I think their MX Red boards were a limited edition and are both expensive and more difficult to obtain.
WASD may be on the verge of releasing a board with Reds, or possibly have already done so.
Ducky has plenty of MX Red boards, including the Ducky Shining back-lit model.
And Noppoo is another option; I have a Choc Mini Mx Red board myself.
I'm sure I'm missing a handful of option some other members can fill in.
I have blue, black, and red boards and currently my favorite switch is Red. There was an adjustment period when moving from blue to red, but no real issues. That said however, I bottom out a lot on Reds. Not very hard though, and I actually quite enjoy the linear feeling ending with a satisfying 'clack'.
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My impression is that those who learn to love blues would tend to not compromise for less
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I don't tend to bottom out on my blues, and I really do like typing on them - my idea, however, was to 'break in' the reds in my office, and I'm sure my coworkers would not like me using blues :P
I considered getting a board with browns, but my impression was that they would be too similar to my current board.
I tried typing on the reds for an hour or so (borrowed a board from a friend) and they felt very nice - although it is clear they would need a little getting used to.
I didn't seem to bottom out on them, but that might just be due to carefulness from the board not being mine. I did have a few double-taps when typing though, but I guess that is to be expected when switching.
/Pitashen
I think that might be true, I really do love the feel of blues and I like the clicky sound after getting used to it - but you never know 'till you try :)
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For my 2 cents, I use Blues, Reds, Browns, Ergo-Clears and clicky white Alps at least once a day and I BY FAR prefer my Reds. I have a Das with Blues and, while it's a very nice board, I prefer my Rosewill (yeah, that's right!) with Reds. The construction on the Rosewill is actually BETTER than the build on my Das.
Oh, nice... looks like they're currently in stock and about $20 cheaper! (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201044)
Edit: Damn... that's tempting. I paid the full $130 for it the first time... I can get it for essentially $50 less right now? If Cherry switches weren't so long-lived (and if I actually had ANY need for another board), I'd snatch that up in a heartbeat.
Oh, forgot to mention, the Rosewill has a removable cable, where the Das does not. Just another point in the Rosewill's favor if you ask me.
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For my 2 cents, I use Blues, Reds, Browns, Ergo-Clears and clicky white Alps at least once a day and I BY FAR prefer my Reds. I have a Das with Blues and, while it's a very nice board, I prefer my Rosewill (yeah, that's right!) with Reds. The construction on the Rosewill is actually BETTER than the build on my Das.
Oh, nice... looks like they're currently in stock and about $20 cheaper! (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201044)
Edit: Damn... that's tempting. I paid the full $130 for it the first time... I can get it for essentially $50 less right now? If Cherry switches weren't so long-lived (and if I actually had ANY need for another board), I'd snatch that up in a heartbeat.
Oh, forgot to mention, the Rosewill has a removable cable, where the Das does not. Just another point in the Rosewill's favor if you ask me.
I have used both the Rosewill and the Das. I am typing this on a Das Pro Silent. The build quality of the Rosewill is nice and leads to a good entry point in mech boards for some people. But the quality is far from the best. I had to RMA the Rosewill 3 times to Newegg before I just had them refund it and I went with a filco maje2. I would put the Rosewill build level on the same level as the Razer BlackWidow.
The detachable cable on the Rosewill is a plus, but it also has very tiny plastic clips holding the connector in place (at least it did on the one I opened .) This leads to broken connectors if you move the board a lot, I had this happen on a ducky 1087 I was borrowing from a friend that has the same issue. e9000 did the trick to permanently glue the connector in place in the keyboards case.
But there is one think you are not mentioning that the user gives up if they did choose the Rosewill over the Das (which at 140+, I would not buy. Mine was $99 on sale at the Egg when I bought it). The Das has a powered 2 port usb hub on the side of it. This is a nice feature and one I use at the office which is where I keep the Das board.
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if you want to keep it simple and not worry about macro keys / feature keys, i'd say get a leo from elitekeyboards or a filco from keyboardco. i got a filco majestouch2 linear-r limited tenkeyless from keyboardco via amazon during their second stock run back in may 2011 and i LOVE it. i got a leo tenkeyless w/ brown switches from elitekeyboards during their first stock run, and i can say the filco is simply a higher quality keyboard. while the leo is still a great keyboard, i'd say spend the extra bit of cash and get a filco, you won't regret it.
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Hi,
Recently I tried a keyboard with red switches, and now I have decided that I would like to buy one for myself.
Hello fellow Dane :-)
Where did you find mech boards in Denmark?
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Alot depends on where you are ordering from and if you want Tenkeyless or not. From within the states I would recommend WASD in full size and CMSTORM in tenkeyless (through PChome).
I have blues that I type on now and love for strictly typing. I just sold my browns , that while I loved the feel of them for gaming/typing I am over the tenkeyless fetish and wanted my tenkeys back.
I will know by next week how the reds work our for me But I say whichever you choose , Give them two weeks before making a decision to allow yourself time to acclimate.
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@erw
It was, as mentioned, a friend of mine who bought it.
A Noppoo Choc Mini with red switches, I believe he ordered it through Qtan's shop on this site.
It is quite difficult to find mech keyboards here in Denmark, atleast if you want something other than Razer, Steelseries or the new Corsair.
So to answer your question, I haven't found proper mech keyboards in Denmark so far :P
I think I might look for a Filco with red switches - seems the majority recommend them for their build quality
*EDIT*
Seems the Filco with red switches is rather hard to come by - might get a Leopold instead. Any opinions on the Noppoo Choc Pro?
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@erw
It was, as mentioned, a friend of mine who bought it.
A Noppoo Choc Mini with red switches, I believe he ordered it through Qtan's shop on this site.
It is quite difficult to find mech keyboards here in Denmark, atleast if you want something other than Razer, Steelseries or the new Corsair.
So to answer your question, I haven't found proper mech keyboards in Denmark so far :P
I think I might look for a Filco with red switches - seems the majority recommend them for their build quality
*EDIT*
Seems the Filco with red switches is rather hard to come by - might get a Leopold instead. Any opinions on the Noppoo Choc Pro?
Noppoo Choc Pro, certainly not the best built keyboard. Having some tiny flaws in the builts(especially plastic marks on casing and keycaps). Though, their new model seems to have a thick PBT keycaps.
Only go for them if you can find them at less than 80-90USD(b4 ship), which is kind of impossible. If not, just try to go for other brand.
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Make sure you take a look at WASD. I got one with red switches to replace my Rosewill (USB port broke) and it is really nice. The semi-custom gives you many options to personalize your board and if you are worried about bottoming out you can have them install o-rings dampeners.
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@Hazborgufen
Yea, I took at look at their site today - the custom feature really seemed quite useful.
If their build quality is good, that certainly is a feature that would make them seem like a better choice.
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Accidentally double posted - :/
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Accidentally double posted - :/
They have about the same build quality as Filco. They're an active member of GH and if you have any questions, you can ask directly in their subforums.
Like Hazborgufen said, if you want some sound dampening for bottom out, o-rings are your friend. Although I would suggest looking into the Classefieds section of this board - there are people selling cheap o-rings.
I have a Rosewill board with Reds and love it. Thought I'd need some tactile feel but decided that browns had such a subtle bump that it wasn't worth it and the linearity of the Reds feels awesome. I do love Blues though and that will be my next board.
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I'm in the same situation as you. Thinking of waiting till the new Leopolds and getting one with reds then.
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Ok - seems I've taken a liking to the WASD customize feature, thinking of getting one with black laser engraved caps.
Do any of you have any experience with their engraved caps?
For some reason I don't think they look as smooth as (as an example) the one Qtan has for sale http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/item/pbt-key-caps/104-pbt-white-engraved-key-cap/lid=19240211 .
Is this simply due to the picture, or is it due to the caps being abs? (Would the PBT set, or a similar set in black fit the WASD?)
I really like the sleek look of the PBT set - but I would prefer my board to be black.
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When you say smooth, do you mean like "sharp" around the font edges ?
I think most people agree that PBT is superior key material but it's more expensive (mostly due to the shipping costs I think). The PBT fit filco and therefore fit WASD.
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When you say smooth, do you mean like "sharp" around the font edges ?
I think most people agree that PBT is superior key material but it's more expensive (mostly due to the shipping costs I think). The PBT fit filco and therefore fit WASD.
Not because of shipping cost. It is because the harder nature(thus harder to make) and rarity over ABS that made PBT more pricy. Even in the very same China, the PBT is at least 2-3X more pricier than any ABS counterpart(except FILCO...)
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Well , I thought that could be the case, but Qtan has the PBT for about $45 before shipping and aren't the abs 49.99 BLANK from WASD ?
I wish WASD was selling their boards without keys as an option and I wish I could get these : http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/item/pbt-key-caps/104-pbt-gold-black-side-printe/lid=18974431
Without the really high shipping costs. Considering they will weigh like what ? 24oz after packing material ?
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I wish WASD was selling their boards without keys as an option and I wish I could get these : http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/item/pbt-key-caps/104-pbt-gold-black-side-printe/lid=18974431
You're in luck then. He is planning on selling a capless board.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?25672-WASD-keyboards-to-release-DIY-keyboard-(No-keycaps-reduced-price)
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Well , I thought that could be the case, but Qtan has the PBT for about $45 before shipping and aren't the abs 49.99 BLANK from WASD ?
I wish WASD was selling their boards without keys as an option and I wish I could get these : http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/item/pbt-key-caps/104-pbt-gold-black-side-printe/lid=18974431
Without the really high shipping costs. Considering they will weigh like what ? 24oz after packing material ?
Different country, thus different standard and pricing.
In China, ABS full 104 keys cost below 100RMB(again except FILCO, cause it is consider Japan brand) and the cheapest is 50RMB for full 104 blank keys(black or white only).
The cheapest PBT full keys will cost at least 200RMB on average, where those who had fancy/unique printing methods cost more.
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When you say smooth, do you mean like "sharp" around the font edges ?
I think most people agree that PBT is superior key material but it's more expensive (mostly due to the shipping costs I think). The PBT fit filco and therefore fit WASD.
Yea, it sort of seems more sharp around the edges - and it seems that the engravings are not as deep either. It might just be the angle the picture is taken from though.
But if Filco-compatible keys fit on WASDs, then I can just choose to put other caps on later.
I have decided to go for a WASD once I make up a custom look that I'll like.
The answers and advice you have all given, has been a huge help - thank you so much! :)
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*thread hijack*
I just tried Cherry Red for the first time.
Woooooooooooooooooooooooow.
This switch is awful. I'm shocked people like this so much. I thought the lack of a tactile point wouldn't a big deal, and it isn't. The problem is, because it has no actuating point, it also has no reset point. And that's what kills it for me. No reset point makes it feel incredibly unresponsive. What a bizarre feeling.
If only Cherry Blue had the same reset point as Browns... then it would easily be my favorite switch.
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*thread hijack*
I just tried Cherry Red for the first time.
Woooooooooooooooooooooooow.
This switch is awful. I'm shocked people like this so much. I thought the lack of a tactile point wouldn't a big deal, and it isn't. The problem is, because it has no actuating point, it also has no reset point. And that's what kills it for me. No reset point makes it feel incredibly unresponsive. What a bizarre feeling.
If only Cherry Blue had the same reset point as Browns... then it would easily be my favorite switch.
Indeed, it does feel a little strange at first - but I think that's from being used to using blues/browns
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I'm using the razer blackwidow as well. And just like you I am also getting a red board. Will let you know once it arrives.
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I thought the lack of a tactile point wouldn't a big deal, and it isn't. The problem is, because it has no actuating point, it also has no reset point. And that's what kills it for me. No reset point makes it feel incredibly unresponsive. What a bizarre feeling.
I have only tried browns (and BS) so far, so I'm not that experienced with switches yet. But that doesn't make sense to me.
How can it have no reset point?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]37523[/ATTACH]
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Actually if it were me getting a wasd, I'd talk to him and send him a blank set of PBT's to have the custom stuff done to them instead. I have said before that that would be kinda cool, and someone said he'd be willing to do it, he'd just need a few extra pbt's to test the process.
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Wait a week. CoolerMaster Storm with Cherry Reds should be available. In the USA at least. See my subforum for details.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22521-CM-Storm-QuickFire-in-MX-Reds/page2&p=489886#post489886
Its been posted several times since that post that they will only offer the blues in the US for a while (1-2 months) to test the market. Still waiting on an answer from CMcarter.
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I have only tried browns (and BS) so far, so I'm not that experienced with switches yet. But that doesn't make sense to me.
How can it have no reset point?
(Attachment) 37523[/ATTACH]
Compare this graph with the ones for tactile switches. Red has a reset point, but what I mean is that it doesn't bounce back once you release it from the activation point.
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Day two...
My impression of touch typing with reds is much better. The difference between browns and reds isn't very big though... I still think the lack of a reset point hurts the most. When a brown switch is actuated, it will bounce back almost to its original position after you release it. I wonder if its possible for there to be a linear switch with a brown-like reset point.
Reds are interesting. But, of course, all these switches are better than ****ty rubber domes.
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Day two...
My impression of touch typing with reds is much better. The difference between browns and reds isn't very big though... I still think the lack of a reset point hurts the most. When a brown switch is actuated, it will bounce back almost to its original position after you release it. I wonder if its possible for there to be a linear switch with a brown-like reset point.
Reds are interesting. But, of course, all these switches are better than ****ty rubber domes.
Sure seems like it bounces back to me. I mean yes theres no bump to tell you its registered. But the spring has plenty of bounce back imo. If I just push lightly it snaps my finger back up.
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Well, after spending some more time with it (two sessions of touch typing for 10 min for each switch type) I've decided reds are nice, but browns are better. It seems even with the somewhat mushy tactility of browns (compared to blues), the tactility is just worth it. My fingers need something to dig through. It's fascinating. In my case a little complicated, because I'm in the process of designing my own switch. It's not going to be linear like I thought. I'm aiming to design a switch that is basically a hybrid of Cherry MX Blue and Cherry MX Brown.
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Going between my Siig modded with linear greens in the WASD cluster, and my Leopold with browns, I find the light linear switches much nicer for my style of gameplay. Riding the actuation point to sneak about is butter smooth with the light linears, and after so long using mech boards I never have a problem knowing where that point is. Sneaking about with my Leopold feels better now that it's been broken in, but comparatively it feels like there's a grain of sand in the switch.
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It seems even with the somewhat mushy tactility of browns (compared to blues), the tactility is just worth it. My fingers need something to dig through. /QUOTE]
Hear in lies the issue and why so many have trouble deciding between the two. It's all a personal preference to the typist/gamer. I plan to write a real review of reds vs browns very soon.
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Well, after spending some more time with it (two sessions of touch typing for 10 min for each switch type) I've decided reds are nice, but browns are better. It seems even with the somewhat mushy tactility of browns (compared to blues), the tactility is just worth it. My fingers need something to dig through. It's fascinating. In my case a little complicated, because I'm in the process of designing my own switch. It's not going to be linear like I thought. I'm aiming to design a switch that is basically a hybrid of Cherry MX Blue and Cherry MX Brown.
Past model m's, how many other switch types have you tried? I think you should try a bunch if that's what you're doing. Perhaps even of the more extinct kinds.
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@shogrran
Please do report back how your transition from the BW to reds goes - I'm very interested!
Although it's all about personal preference, it's nice to have some input.
How did you like the blues?
@False_Dmitry_II
Awesome suggestion - I'll try contacting him about that!
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Dear Diary, Day Three - Part II: The Reckoning
After having typed some more, it might be a tie or I prefer browns a little more over reds. I believe the biggest factor for deciding what your favorite switch is, is activation force. For reds and browns, it's the same. Also, something tells me that if I were to use browns for a week, I'd prefer browns. But if I were to use reds for a week, I'd prefer the reds. It's almost impossible to decide between the two, but my preference still goes to browns. It's a good all-round switch with the kind of low activation force I like.
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Ack! I thought I will be able to try red keys. But the person bought browns instead of reds. Now I have to look for an mx red keyboard as well.
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@shogrran
Please do report back how your transition from the BW to reds goes - I'm very interested!
Although it's all about personal preference, it's nice to have some input.
How did you like the blues?
Well unfortunately the person who bought a keyboard for me abroad by mistake bought an mx brown. So I will have to find another brand of keyboard for the mx reds.
I liked the mxblue keys mainly because of the click sound. I know exactly if I pressed the key already. I don't recommend it for people who need to spam press a key since the clicky feel of it really affects the speed on your spam press. I think linear switches will be better for those.
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Lololol... I just received my Advantage LF. This thread blew everything out of proportion. I've only just played with it but the difference is only 10% of what I expected.
They're comfy but it's too early to compare them (to the browns) for me.
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Lololol... I just received my Advantage LF. This thread blew everything out of proportion. I've only just played with it but the difference is only 10% of what I expected.
They're comfy but it's too early to compare them (to the browns) for me.
Is it true that the reds feel lighter or softer to the touch than the browns? Which sound better? I have listened to countless sound comparisons in youtube but they all sound different because of a lot of factors.
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It barely sounds different IMO. The feel is the biggest difference.
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I do hear a significant difference, actually. The reds have only a bit of uniform friction, like scraping your fingernail softly against a table. The browns sound dirtier in comparison and a bit louder (some might like it - I don't). But it also depends on the board they're mounted in as well (mine are in the same type of board (Kinesis Advantage)).
The reds feel lighter. They're so soft and smooth that I'm in love with them.
There is a huge difference from just pressing the keys (my post above) and actually sitting down and typing on them.
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So, I finally decided.
I ordered a barebone WASD with red switches, some o-rings and a set of black engraved PBT switches from Qtan.
Now I just have to wait for it all to arrive, so I can start assembly and testing :D
Thank you all for your input :)
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So far in my limited usage of the reds they don't have all that drastic of a difference. Sound is about the same and the feel to anyone who actually bottoms out on a light switch is very similar. People talk about them feeling so much lighter and they do if you are looking for the activation point. But if you are feeling the pressure all the way to the bottom they are about the same.
I think for me , I've come to realize that of the switches out there, either the reds or browns are my preference. As keymonger mentioned above " Also, something tells me that if I were to use browns for a week, I'd prefer browns. But if I were to use reds for a week, I'd prefer the reds. It's almost impossible to decide between the two.... "
There really isn't enough difference to make a decisive decision. If you like one then I bet you will like the other.
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So, I finally decided.
I ordered a barebone WASD with red switches, some o-rings and a set of black engraved PBT switches from Qtan.
Now I just have to wait for it all to arrive, so I can start assembly and testing :D
Thank you all for your input :)
Good call! They released the barebones just a week after I ordered mine or I would have also gone with the PBT keys. The way I see it now is I will use these until the shine gets annoying then I can always replace the keys if I want.
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Good call! They released the barebones just a week after I ordered mine or I would have also gone with the PBT keys. The way I see it now is I will use these until the shine gets annoying then I can always replace the keys if I want.
Yea, I went lurking the WASD subforum, and I saw someone suggested they release a barebone version. I really liked the idea, and hoped they would do so.
Later on, I accidentally stumbled upon the barebone board on their site, and I decided to go for it along with the PBT keys.
I haven't tried PBT keys yet, but I hope I will be satisfied with them - I heard a lot of great things. :P
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You won't be disappointed.
But maybe you will. Looking through forums, I thought browns are the all around most used and favored switch and I didn't like it at all. Tried blues and blacks and finally settled with reds. I spent about a month with the browns and a week with blacks and blues and I just couldn't get used to it. Reds came after and it's here to stay.
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So, I finally decided.
I ordered a barebone WASD with red switches, some o-rings and a set of black engraved PBT switches from Qtan.
Now I just have to wait for it all to arrive, so I can start assembly and testing :D
Thank you all for your input :)
We were in the same boat! lol and i also ended ordering from WASD.. i ordered on the 13th. but back on that day their website did not have the option for barebones, 105 keys. I went on their website last night and i was like oh snap, if i waited i could have gotten the barebone version and order some PBT keycaps...
i thought that was funny,
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So far in my limited usage of the reds they don't have all that drastic of a difference. Sound is about the same and the feel to anyone who actually bottoms out on a light switch is very similar. People talk about them feeling so much lighter and they do if you are looking for the activation point. But if you are feeling the pressure all the way to the bottom they are about the same.
I think for me , I've come to realize that of the switches out there, either the reds or browns are my preference. As keymonger mentioned above " Also, something tells me that if I were to use browns for a week, I'd prefer browns. But if I were to use reds for a week, I'd prefer the reds. It's almost impossible to decide between the two.... "
There really isn't enough difference to make a decisive decision. If you like one then I bet you will like the other.
After typing on the reds some more last night after this post ... Then coming into work and spending the days with the blues.... I have to say that I like the browns better. The tactility and the 55g tactile bump pressure just feels too good to me.
Don't get me wrong I like the reds ok , They are fine for gaming, but so was the browns, they just didn't have the nice crisp feel to them that the break point in the browns provided. So I ordered another WASD of pretty much the same specs but with brown switches this time.
As I sit here typing this and trying to put my finger on it. It's hard. Maybe because I'm not such a great typist so I'm prone to more mistakes than others , but it seems that my less coordinated fingers like my pinky's and ring fingers really have a hard time with the reds when trying to type quickly. Mostly I think it's the lack of the really crisp break point at the Tactile bump that causes.
I still feel that the reds and the browns feel like more solid switches than the blues due to the plastic "click" mechanism. I think that extra moving thin plastic piece is the one thing that detracts from the blues.
Again , If I typed solely on just one keyboard for a week I would probably come to like it better. Hell. I will likely end up keeping both the reds and the browns. Bring the blues from work and take the browns there and move the blues to a spare PC or something. The more and more I'm typing on these reds the more and more comfortable I seem to get with them.