So I'm presently in the group buy for for this little piece of awesomeness (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard) and I'm trying to decide how serious I am about it, and a lot of my thinking is centered around the split design. Do I want it? Do I really need it?
I've used the Kinesis spread design for years and liked it, other than the footprint. I'm presently using the TE and the bent design is working out well too. So I did a quick experiment - try this and see what you getI notice pressure on the outside back of my arms, the natural position is where the hands come together centered on my body. Thinking of it that makes some sense, we most frequently use our hands together at some task in front of us, think of the evolution where our primate hands are gathering food or performing some task.
- Stand up with your arms at your side
- Bend your arms at the elbows with the hands held out straight (like somebody is going to drape a towl over your arms), arms are parallel
- Now, bend those arms inwards so the hands are touching (forms a triangle with your body)
- Go back and forth a few times like this. Isn't the separated position more uncomfortable than the one where the hands meet in the middle?
So honest question for people who like the split design (to help me make a decision)Thanks ..
- why do you like it?
- How far apart do you keep the splits?
- What do you do with the space in between the splits?
Interesting discussion, yes OF COURSE I want it ... actually must HAVE it, yes master ...
Well given the price is pushing north of $400 practical matters are intruding (I really need to buy at least three for my home setup, and what about work?). Even given my proclivity to spend whatever I want on computer stuff. Speaking of the ErgoDOX my concerns areBlah blah ... programming is my trade, craft, life, hobby, passion, whatever, so I'm not collecting boards but creating a system I'll use every day.
- Split design will take up less space then the Kinesis but more than bent (TE) or regular (ten keyless)
- Need to learn yet another mapping. I'm still struggling with the Caps swap on the TE, and at work I have a Kineisis (pitched a fit to get it, not sure I feel comfortable pushing to get a TE now), I have a Filco on one computer, and when I'm on my laptop use the Apple built in. Four keyboards to switch between, whereas before I had three, and with the Ergo Dox I'd have five.
- Advantage of the bent design (TE) and regular (ten keyless) over the spread or split (Kinesis and Dox) is that all the 'important' keys - control, return, backspace etc, are available to both hands. I'm frequently doing moves now I couldn't before on the spread design, which is pen with right hand (Photoshop) and use keyboard with left. For example, double tap a layer to rename, then use the left to hunt and peck the name for even more one handed goodness. Not really doable with Kinesis due to the wells, and the Dox? Maybe, I guess people do something like that with the Maltron, but don't know.
- Non standard 'board. If I really like it then it's a one off, not to be repeated and what happens when the board breaks or wears out? If I don't like it then I just spent a bundle. I bought backups of the TE in case they go belly up.
Thanks for the discussion.
Space: We are talking about a few inches, right? You may try a chair mount, or discover various configurations with a 2 piece keyboard that never even popped into your head before. I did. For a couple inches you may/may not 'lose' there are some potentially powerful gains.
$400 is a bundle, keyboard or not. I deal with tens of thousands regularly, and I often forget how much money even $50 is. Odd isn't it? In every day life how easy it is to lose perspective of such things. I have been 'letting go' of thousands in business for years, and I have been recently humbled. Now I swing by Starbucks and think "$4 for a COFFEE????". Tough argument, but you are used to Kinesis and TE so you can make that decision easily.I'll happily spend 2k, or 4k, or 10 if necessary, I just don't want to spend it unless it is The One. If not I have other uses for that money, for example I wouldn't mind trying a Blue TE (I've been a Brown man my entire life)
Keyboard wearing out/breaks. This is true of any board, and they are all fixable (not that complex). What I'm saying is that for what you get out of it, I don't think that argument is the deal-breaker.What I'm saying is that I'll buy it if I'm committed/pretty sure it'll be my full time boards. So that means that I'd like to have them around in 15 years. Of course who knows, maybe a new keyboard will come along (I've only switched from Kinesis after 15 years though), or I could swap out the switches etc. The concern is that I'd want to buy backups now regardless.
Don't like it: This is obviously huge, the biggest deal-breaker of all. Good thing there are sites like Geekhack where pinheads like us will buy that old piece of cheap junk from you :)True enough
'Important keys' functionality: Again, huge. See above. Also, there have been several discussions and partial attempts at making controllers, add-ons etc, that will allow massive functionality to be added to any keyboard. I've lost touch with these projects due to my fluctuating personal circumstances. I need to have a hard-core talk with someone 'in-the'know' to see what can actually be done as far as a 'plug-in'.
There will always be a 'hassle factor' when dealing with an unusual, uncommon, custom item. This is outweighed the unique 'gains' that item provides.
Remember, you, like everything that has ever lived, will die, and none of this will matter. Perspective.
OUTside.
The ErgoDox should have a 2nd layer. I imagine you would press some sort of Fn key key and then 1 becomes F1, 2 becomes F2, etc. For F11 and F12 take your pick, it will be programmable so you can arrange it the way you like.
I'm considering making a tent-mount (probably out of books and capacitors) for my ergoDOX, or possibly chair mounting it. To me, the split design opens up a world of possibility.
Chair moun FYI
In the Split Kinesis Mod article, I have pics of my Datahand chair mount, which is made by the same peeps that made the mounting for the old Kinesis Evolution. There is a detailed description of exactly how it works and what the parts are. You can make it for $100 I believe.
This summer I will make one (an exact copy) that I will either put on another chair or sell. You
may want to stay in touch :)
wheeeeeeee
you have a data hand, too? you amazing bastard!
DataHand would probably not work for me, nor chair mount - too slow? Not sure why when the Kinesis sits so well in the lap ...
speaking of which I've decided to keep my Kinesis as backup keyboards. They work so well as a laptop keyboard, I have them permanently connected but off to the side, and pull them out so I can lean back and relax while doing some work.
For similar reasons why not get the Ergo Dox I realized? Maybe I can use them to mod my chair, what the heck. The TE is my main keyboard but there's room for more ...
Amazing, not so much.
Bastard, definitely.
Bastard, now you've got me thinking about what chair hacks I can pull off
Show Image(http://www.nethrone.com/Custom/Images/Catalog-Images_Classic_WHT.jpg)Show Image(http://www.nethrone.com/Custom/Images/CGamingDual3.jpg)
:-D
Joe
Show Image(http://www.nethrone.com/Custom/Images/Catalog-Images_Classic_WHT.jpg)
i have the same setup basically, mines just attached to a wall instead of looking like a future egg chair, it works really well, sometimes i miss the "desk".
The Great Chair Search
You too? ****, it's one helluva search too, isn't it?
$400-$2,500 is the easy part too....
I know I'm kinda OT here, but I like split keyboards because I have freakishly-wide shoulders. While I do use a standard keyboard (Filco), I have to sit rather far back just to have my hands at the correct angle. For whatever reason, I just saw the ErgoDox thread and expressed my interest.
most mech boards avg 100 to 120... so a 40% price bump (or really 50%) for a mech ergo board is really not much of a difference considering there is great knee replacement surgeries and i've known ppl who have gotten this and for 8months they are in agony from the recovery but afterwards, they feel like they're 20 and run again on their knew titanium knees, but there's no elbow replacement, and a friend is gonna get her wrist bones grinded down... yea i'm like is that from RSI? here have a kinesis! (i literally walked in with my space kinesis and told her to try it out and she can have, she returned it a week later saying it was too weird).
learning to type on a weird looking kinesis is much more preferable to me than to grind down some wrist bones.
Architect: I was unaware you were so image conscience...(goofy-looking??? It's a KEYBOARD MAN!!!) Honestly, I'm on the floor laughing.....my only issue with Maltron is that they seem to be a poor dollar value, but I don't own one....yet.
One of the reasons I like Macs, I work better with beautiful equipment. The Maltron is dull grey, has some pebbly lizard texture, the keycaps are ugly, it appears like it was designed by a five year old. That and the price haven't tempted me away from the Kinesis yet, and then TE came along anyhow.
The Maltron is dull grey, has some pebbly lizard texture, the keycaps are ugly, it appears like it was designed by a five year old. That and the price haven't tempted me away from the Kinesis yet, and then TE came along anyhow.
Proword:
so it could be hot pink ... It sure would bother me from across the room though! lol
So honest question for people who like the split design (to help me make a decision)
- why do you like it?
- How far apart do you keep the splits?
- What do you do with the space in between the splits?
Thanks ..
Architect:
That is a perfect example of personal preference regarding the split keyboard design, it's mostly a value statement.
The grey "pebbly lizard texture" is quite deliberate, as it's designed to minimise reflected glare and hence easier on the eyes.
The keycaps are usually hidden by the fingers so why is that a problem? A five year old? Scarcely.
I've met Stephen Hobday on a couple of occasions, and although he was born in 1916, he's still pretty sharp of mind. He knows what's what when it comes to ergonomics. And has been pointed out previously cost is minimal, I bought my first Maltron in 1986 and I'm still using it. Even at today's price of 375 pounds UK, that's roughly 14 pounds UK per year (about $20.60 Aust as at today's prices; $21.70 US) , dirt cheap. (But it was certainly nowhere near that price originally.)
To get back to the original topic, being used to a split keyboard I have to say that I've never thought for a moment I'd like to change anything about it. It's not a case so much as why do I like it as I really feel very uncomfortable with anything else. With the Maltron it also has to do with the 3D curve of the keys. Each individual key is set at a different angle to enable the the finger tip to strike "square on", and if I were to somehow be able to spread or narrow the split, then there's a chance that that feature would be nullified.
You can see the thinking behind the "key tilting" in this paper, towards the bottom.
http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info...al-stress.html
So from my view the "split" between keyboard halves is only a single factor which I'd have to consider.
An order for 350 Maltrons from Turkey. I wonder why they wanted pink????
Because they can :)
I kinda like it.
I love the keywells of Kinesis. I will eventually try the most recent model Maltron with the trackball. I'm done with old technology. I'm very curious as to how they will compare.
It's 3 am, rainy/windy, a balmy 60 degrees F. I'm going a couple blocks to the beach to check it out! If I don't post ever again, well, you know...we all have our time :)
GO JOE!
I think I saw some post from you that you also are a programmer? If so what model do you suggest, both Mac and PC?
It's 3 am, rainy/windy, a balmy 60 degrees F. I'm going a couple blocks to the beach to check it out! If I don't post ever again, well, you know...we all have our time :)
GO JOE!
Not a programmer, no. A court reporter. Purely high speed text generation, with little or no navigation, but for hours on end at the speed of speech, with the usual recommended breaks.
I suspect that the "don't rest your hands"idea is one which is really only applicable to the QWERTY layout, since there are so many gross movements of hands and arms, hurdling from bottom row to top and back etc, that one would be forever lifting and lowering one's hands and probably cause more problems than just "hovering" the hands.
But when I played music, it was in an Irish pub band ...
With regard to the lightweight nature of the keyboard, (on a different bulletin board?) it was suggested removing the bottom of the case and tape resin cored solder inside it to give it a bit of mass.
Now here's an idea, I've thought of using a MIDI piano keyboard as a regular keyboard. Programming would then be like improvisational composition.
This is why I FLIPPED OUT when the TrulyErgonomic was announced. I could have dual navigation blocks nearby
Now here's an idea, I've thought of using a MIDI piano keyboard as a regular keyboard. Programming would then be like improvisational composition. ControllerMate now supports MIDI input so I might try that for funzies.
Nothing new under the sun[/URL]
Some of us use editors where the navigation is under your fingers, not just nearby. Vim ftw :-)
That sounds awesome. Be sure to post your progress :-)
Wow, what about the mapping? Center octave would be the letters they represent, just move up around there and then put the symbols in the bass? urrrrrrrr
I'm not aware of the Book of iPhone, or the Book of Genetics, or a million other things never dreamt of by our ancestors :) ...
Pointing devices are always an issue, period. They need to be integrated, period. (see my sig, lol). The only keyboards with integrated pointing devices are Datahand (in the switches), my Split Kinesis (trackpoint), Alphagrip (thumb trackball), and IBMs (trackpoint) (am I leaving somebody out?).
Pointing devices are always an issue, period. They need to be integrated, period. (see my sig, lol). The only keyboards with integrated pointing devices are Datahand (in the switches), my Split Kinesis (trackpoint), Alphagrip (thumb trackball), and IBMs (trackpoint) (am I leaving somebody out?).
Quote from: erw;496771
Some of us use editors where the navigation is under your fingers, not just nearby. Vim ftw :-)
Yeah, not always available unfortunately.
Nothing beats the Apple trackpad and mouse in my book, the gestures are what really make it. However the real solution is to use the keyboard as much as possible as I do - "don't use the mouse when a four finger shortcut exists!"
I use Rollermouse Free 2 with my Kinesis.
Pebbly black lizard texture....
[ATTACH=CONFIG]38390[/ATTACH]Show Image(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dcfHsT4QWFA/TxNThG2-cyI/AAAAAAAABo8/2Uhw2M6HaBk/s1600/dinosaur.jpg)
;-)
Joe