geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: limmy on Sat, 18 February 2012, 03:41:23
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Observations :
HHKB pro2
manufacturing date 2006-08
5 years of use
Left Alt key (used as "Fn" key) - 50g not enough to actuate, 55g enough to actuate and bottom out
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40969[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40970[/ATTACH]
without sliders - 50g not enough, 55g enough
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40975[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40976[/ATTACH]
"a" key - 60g not enough to actuate, 65g enough to actuate and bottom out
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40971[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40972[/ATTACH]
without sliders - 55g not enough, 60g enough
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40977[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40978[/ATTACH]
HHKB pro2
manufacturing date 2009-02
Like new condition
Left Alt key (used as "Fn" key) - 45g not enough to actuate, 50g enough to actuate and bottom out
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40979[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40980[/ATTACH]
without sliders - 40g not enough, 45g enough
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40981[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40982[/ATTACH]
"s" key - 50g not enough to actuate, 55g enough to actuate and bottom out
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40973[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40974[/ATTACH]
without sliders - 45g not enough, 50g enough
[ATTACH=CONFIG]40983[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]40984[/ATTACH]
Interpretation of the above results :
First and foremost, this shows Topre switches' rubber dome changes over time (Edit) under the assumption that my like-new HHKB is very similar to my old HHKB 5 years ago. I also swapped the rubber domes (I swapped whole board) and I get the same measurements. This suggests that rubber dome is main reason for the changed actuation force and that wear and increased friction of the sliders are negligible once they are lubricated. (I used dry teflon to lubricate the sliders after washing them.)
Also I make the following observations and some deduction from them :
1. Frictions from sliders add about 5g more force for keys to actuate. However, it is hard to rule out measurement error. The weights were unstable when I measured on rubber domes without sliders hence I had to hold the weights affecting the accurateness of the measurements.
2. letter keys become harder to actuate compared to other modifier keys. I thought of three possible explanations.
First, fast press and release action stiffens rubber more than constant pressure action.
Second, constant pressure action wears the rubber so much that it is at the stage of loosing elastic property. (Some say very old Topre switches that has seen a lot of usage feels very light and force curve seem to feel like there is very little hump, i.e. little tactile feel of rubber. So if their observations are correct, the rubber dome will soften once aging goes beyond stiffening stage.)
Third, more force is required to depress larger piece of rubber than a single rubber dome because there is more friction in the air duct through which air inside rubber dome passes when it is depressed. (I tested this hypothesis but results are rather inconclusive. However, I wonder if punching holes in the air duct (not the dome itself) will help reducing actuation force)
NOTE1:
Unit of measurements being 5g is not accurate. I am pretty sure that the measurement above are with measurement errors, especially the rubber dome measurements(without sliders).
There were a couple of problems using nickels as weights. Due to its shape, it was hard to position the weights consistently. It was especially hard to do measurements on rubber domes without sliders. The problem also exsits on measurements on key caps. The size of nickels are large enough that it interferes with other keys. For correct measurement, I would recommend taking surrounding keys off. Moreover, the position of weights also matters. If I were to do the measurement again, I would take the caps off and place the weights so that the center of the mass is exactly where the sliders are. However, this measurement would be biased downwards, because in normal use you do not press keys in a straight way or in a way that causes least friction.
NOTE2:
ripster mentioned that my comment(http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27468-45g-or-55g-87u&p=517630#post517630) was first actual measurement of rubber dome stiffening. If it is the first then I wanted to document what I had done to come to that conclusion and provide proper evidence.
NOTE3:
The old HHKB doesn't feel bad compared to the like-new HHKB. I actually love to use the old HHKB as increased actuation force provides more tactile feel. However, due to the increased force, my left-hand fingers(esp. little finger) gets tired after prolonged use. The feeling of tiredness may partly be due to the fact that I have become used to Poker reds which actuates at about 40g to 45g. I have two HHKB and a Poker red. I have been using the old HHKB for 5 years as a daily driver. I use Poker time to time, but I mostly use the old HHKB.
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Thanks for the info =). Can we assume other types of mechanical keyboards also stiffens over time?
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Thanks for the info =). Can we assume other types of mechanical keyboards also stiffens over time?
thats a bad assumption
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Thanks for the info =). Can we assume other types of mechanical keyboards also stiffens over time?
I think its the rubber that stiffens in the topre keyboards so I don't think we can assume that
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This was something that worried me a bit when I was deciding whether to buy a Topre or not. I do think that the keys on my Topre is slightly stiffer now compared to when I got it. It's not to the point where I do feel a big difference.
This was also the reason why I decided to use it as my primary one at home. I figured out that I might as well get as much use out of it considering I paid quite a lot for it compared to my other keyboards.
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that's very disappointing...
thought topre keyboards are suppose to last for decades..
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GLWNT (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27325-Announcing-my-new-theory-the-Good-Luck-With-Nickels-Theory-AKA-GLWNT!).
They don't consider this scientific in the Netherlands.
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Hmmm... well... i was wondering if we can use rubber conditioners like the ones used in table tennis rubber to bring back some if not all of the rubber's freshness. Or how about re-heating rubber... anyone crazy enough to try that yet?
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Nice write-up, pretty cool to see that after 5 years, it's only changed 5g. I'll take slightly more force over sloppy rebound or gritty switches any day.
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Another reason why Cherry linear switches are superior. Of course it is only true for the vintage ones, the recent ones feel like garbage.
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Vintage linears like ML's and MY's? I haven't tried those, I heard they felt awful. Is this not true?
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Vintage linears like ML's and MY's? I haven't tried those, I heard they felt awful. Is this not true?
He's talking about vintage Cherry Blacks.
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Indeed, though I think thick PBT keys, some lubricant, stickers and somewhat lighter custom springs make the feel even better.
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Nice post.
Added to RipOmeter (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189) wikis.
Too bad nickel pics are banned at other Keyboard Forums like Deskthority.net.
In your RipOmeter wiki, you used my results that are most prone to measurement error. As I mentioned in the OP, I had to touch the weight so the accuracy of the measurement is somewhat questionable. I included the results to support that indeed the main problem is rubber domes, but I don't consider that as the main evidence of rubber domes stiffening.
The increased actuation force is pretty significant. If it was designed to actuate at 45g, actuation force at 60g is 33% more, 65g is 44% more, 70g is 55% more force than the designed actuation force. Although I didn't mention in the OP, the letter keys require 60g - 70g to actuate.
I think unit of measurement being 5g is not accurate enough. Let's say actual force required is 50.5g. Using the method, it would show as 55g as actuation force (if everything was done right and measured several times). This is 9% error that cannot be reduced. This in my opinion is huge. Maybe for the purpose 5g unit is fine, but it surely can be improved(by using pennies at the last stage) and the possible errors using the method should be recognized rather than ignored away.
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See my method (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27325-Announcing-my-new-theory-the-Good-Luck-With-Nickels-Theory-AKA-GLWNT!&p=515943&viewfull=1#post515943) for more accuracy.
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Vintage linears like ML's and MY's? I haven't tried those, I heard they felt awful. Is this not true?
I dunno, I love ML's. I have four Cherry G84-4100 units, and one of them is my daily coding keyboard at the office. I love it!
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll236/jkercado/temporary-33.jpg)
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If you were a man of Keyboard SCIENCE for real, then you would consider evaluating other member's observations.
Sadly that's rarely or never the case.
In fact it is very common that a few different members notice something irregular about a their keyboard parts, switches, etc, so they share their thoughts about it,
but you simply choose to ignore their findings without even bothering to try or evaluate it by labeling it with usually something nonsense like the McRip Effect.
Then you keep annoying those members by repeating your boring terms like a parrot.
In my book this is trolling, and definitely not Keyboard SCIENCE.
Just a quick reminder in case you forgot why you are not an expert, and why you never will be. Period.
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nice post and good work. But it shouldn't come as a surprise that rubber eventually degrades and lost its original properties.
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Hmmm... well... i was wondering if we can use rubber conditioners like the ones used in table tennis rubber to bring back some if not all of the rubber's freshness. Or how about re-heating rubber... anyone crazy enough to try that yet?
I like the idea of rubber conditioners. Can you recommend one? If rubber conditioners fail, I might try punching small holes. I see there is a hole puncher that makes 1.2mm holes.
About heating rubber, I think it would damage or further degrade rubber. It may help, but it somehow feels dangerous to me.
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Great investigative work. Thanks for sharing it.
It would be nice if Realforce supplied replacement rubber domes.
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nice post and good work. But it shouldn't come as a surprise that rubber eventually degrades and lost its original properties.
That's my feeling too. Rubber will degrade over time, no question about it. Nice article though.
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EK is offering a sale now where I can buy a 103U for $230, however in the back of my head I really want an 86U.
This thread sort of worries me and makes me wonder if I should buy "as fresh as possible."
Should I be able to buy a preowned 86U and not experience any issues?
Before you answer and say that KeyboardCo is getting more in: as far as I know they are all going to be black 86's: I prefer to stick with a white board.
I think the rubber stiffening is less of an issue than friction build up on the sliders. I say this because I don't really feel discomfort due to increased force required to actuate keys after lubing the sliders with high-end oil. I suspect friction plays very important role.
If you can get a fresh batch, it would be always better.
BTW, ripster. You said you would check the plastic of realforce switch housing. I personally think this is important matter because ABS is bad for places where friction is important. Did you get to the to do list yet?
( http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?26646-Is-key-switch-housing-of-Topre-Realforce-ABS )
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EK is offering a sale now where I can buy a 103U for $230, however in the back of my head I really want an 86U.
This thread sort of worries me and makes me wonder if I should buy "as fresh as possible."
Should I be able to buy a preowned 86U and not experience any issues?
Before you answer and say that KeyboardCo is getting more in: as far as I know they are all going to be black 86's: I prefer to stick with a white board.
they are going to sell more 86u?!
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First and foremost, this shows Topre switches' rubber dome changes over time.
Wow, I missed this thread. Sorry to say, but this is rather hokey science!
Yes, I distribute these products, so while I can be accused of bias; as an individual, I would be embarrassed to put my name on this bit of deductive logic.
Unfortunately, if you didn't test your 2006 HHKB weightings when you first bought it, there is no record that they've actually changed over the last 6 years. So, the data required to deduce a conclusion of the sort you seek to make - that the rubber changes over time - is missing.
I'm not saying that isn't a worthwhile theory to test, but you actually have to test it first!
At the most, all you have demonstrated is that keys from two keyboards from the same factory vary in weighting, and in this case, both are within the specification set by Topre, which is +/-15 grams. In case you're wondering; this tolerance is relatively wide because multiple variables contribute to the performance of the keyswitch; not limited to: small variations in material composition, molding pressure, and environmental temperature.
NOTE3:
The old HHKB doesn't feel bad compared to the like-new HHKB. I actually love to use the old HHKB as increased actuation force provides more tactile feel. However, due to the increased force, my left-hand fingers(esp. little finger) gets tired after prolonged use. The feeling of tiredness may partly be due to the fact that I have become used to Poker reds which actuates at about 40g to 45g. I have two HHKB and a Poker red. I have been using the old HHKB for 5 years as a daily driver. I use Poker time to time, but I mostly use the old HHKB.
This is a common experience for All-55g Realforce users, but one that is overcome with a week or two of normal usage; your fingers do get stronger.
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Wow, I missed this thread. Sorry to say, but this is rather hokey science!
Yes, I distribute these products, so while I can be accused of bias; as an individual, I would be embarrassed to put my name on this bit of deductive logic.
Unfortunately, if you didn't test your 2006 HHKB weightings when you first bought it, there is no record that they've actually changed over the last 6 years. So, the data required to deduce a conclusion of the sort you seek to make - that the rubber changes over time - is missing.
I'm not saying that isn't a worthwhile theory to test, but you actually have to test it first!
At the most, all you have demonstrated is that keys from two keyboards from the same factory vary in weighting, and in this case, both are within the specification set by Topre, which is +/-15 grams. In case you're wondering; this tolerance is relatively wide because multiple variables contribute to the performance of the keyswitch; not limited to: small variations in material composition, molding pressure, and environmental temperature.
This is a common experience for All-55g Realforce users, but one that is overcome with a week or two of normal usage; your fingers do get stronger.
Should I be embarrassed!! Oh my..
All rubbers degrade and harden over time. Here is how EPT(same as EPDM) degrade over time in vitro environment. http://www.tiger-poly.com/product/sheets/r08.html In aging tests, most of EPT hardens and loose elasticity. You may argue that it is not the same rubber used in Topre, but I would argue that this is general enough result of rubber aging. In case you didn't know, the rubber used in EPT as mentioned in Topre's patent.
Your claim that I had to measure the force in 2006 to conclude that the feel changes is not very persuasive. Also +/- 15 grams error isn't error if every measurement is pointing towards +15g. 15g difference by the way is huge when base is 45g. (it is what 30% upward bias)
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Stiffening is due to an increase in friction.
For more info see ripster and I's newfound friendship ;)
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Should I be embarrassed!! Oh my..
All rubbers degrade and harden over time. Here is how EPT(same as EPDM) degrade over time in vitro environment. http://www.tiger-poly.com/product/sheets/r08.html In aging tests, most of EPT hardens and loose elasticity. You may argue that it is not the same rubber used in Topre, but I would argue that this is general enough result of rubber aging. In case you didn't know, the rubber used in EPT as mentioned in Topre's patent.
Your claim that I had to measure the force in 2006 to conclude that the feel changes is not very persuasive. Also +/- 15 grams error isn't error if every measurement is pointing towards +15g. 15g difference by the way is huge when base is 45g. (it is what 30% upward bias)
I wasn't trying to be persuasive. I'm just telling you that you're doing it wrong.
Regardless of how much empirical data you have on the particular material used in Topre domes; you cannot conclude that the domes have changed even 1% from 2006 to 2012 if you never measured them in 2006!
And while anyone would probably agree that +/-15g is a huge tolerance relative to 45g - your audience isn't going to be very amenable to your theory while the measured difference still falls within this range.
About all you might have to hang your theory on is your EPT data. However, the data doesn't express how "Heat-Resistant Aging @ 100°C×72h" measurements correlate to changes that will occur in a normal operating environment; i.e. 25C at 50% humidity for 1 year, 10 years, or 50 years. Which is why this type of test data is typically only useful as a reference in comparing one material to another; it's otherwise of limited value in determining long term performance.
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yea stiffness occurs due to the some env temperature i heard
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Your claim that I had to measure the force in 2006 to conclude that the feel changes is not very persuasive.
No, EK has a valid point there. Even if you measured many HHKB from 2006, and many from 2011, and found a statistically significant difference, you still could not conclude the cause of the difference.
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No, EK has a valid point there. Even if you measured many HHKB from 2006, and many from 2011, and found a statistically significant difference, you still could not conclude the cause of the difference.
Correct, too much unsystematic variance present in: a) actual actuation tolerance and b) the ripometer.
+ unless you collected data from a normally distributed population of NIB 2006 and 2011 HHKBs (i.e., the control condition) you findings don't really tell us anything.
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Not to fuel any fires, but finger rolling on my heavily used (8 hours a day programming) HHKB for 2.5 years doesn't feel any different than a brand NIB HHKB. Keys are a bit shinier though :( Yes even the PBT gets shiny.
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I posted some evidence. It may not be accurate but still an evidence. If you want to refute my point that rubber domes harden over time, I will readily accept the counter argument if you would provide some measurement and evidence.
I didn't know I would have to be super scientific to prove one point that is so natural. Things deteriorate when they are used 5-years! Two of the deterioration process of rubbers are hardening and loss of elasticity. One assumption I made in order to reach my conclusion was that my new HHKB was similar to my old HHKB back in 2006. I think it is a fair assumption. If you trying to argue against my conclusion, your argument will be much more persuasive if you provide something to prove your point rather than nit picking on my methodologies. You can argue against any study all day long saying something was not done right, but that is just lame way of refuting.
I referred to aging test results used in industry and you even question that. It is standard procedure to heat in order to accelerate aging process. This is so that you don't have to wait years to find out how rubber materials age. It was to show that EPT age and when they age what properties are changed. You are right that the amount of deterioration may or may not mean much in normal conditions, but it is nearly impossible to get that result.
Since it hardens and at the same time loose elastic property, the rubber domes would later be mushy if significant amount elastic property is lost. My HHKB in my opinion has not reached that point yet.
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I posted some evidence. It may not be accurate but still an evidence. If you want to refute my point that rubber domes harden over time, I will readily accept the counter argument if you would provide some measurement and evidence.
What you have there is a finding, not evidence. No-one is saying that rubber doesn't harden over time, just that your test does not prove that it does. Too many variables are unaccounted for, since it is only one test. To counter your conclusion therefore does not require measurement and evidence.
Don't get me wrong - the finding is interesting by itself. Had you found no difference, there wouldn't be much point in going any further.
But the finding needs to be replicated to become evidence, and even then it would only be evidence of a difference. The differences would need to be analysed to determine possible causes, and the hypothetical conclusions would need to be tested to determine their validity.
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All this skepticism assumes this one case of materials testing is being done in a complete vacuum independent of any other results regarding the tensile properties of rubber. Which is silly.
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What you have there is a finding, not evidence. No-one is saying that rubber doesn't harden over time, just that your test does not prove that it does. Too many variables are unaccounted for, since it is only one test. To counter your conclusion therefore does not require measurement and evidence.
Don't get me wrong - the finding is interesting by itself. Had you found no difference, there wouldn't be much point in going any further.
But the finding needs to be replicated to become evidence, and even then it would only be evidence of a difference. The differences would need to be analysed to determine possible causes, and the hypothetical conclusions would need to be tested to determine their validity.
Agreed. It is a finding, and it may or may not be generalized. (I think one finding could be evidence of some phenomenon, but your terminology of evidence may be different from mine)
Although it would be hard to draw hard conclusion from my observations, I think it is at least indicative. That is what one consumer can do at most in most cases, not having power and resources to test it rigorously. Moreover, the consumer has very little incentive to publicize some findings, when it is likely that resale value is going to be negatively affected. So lack of negative information doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. (There is whole literature on incentives to report incorrectly or not to report)
Now that many questions my methodologies, I will document how my new 2009 HHKB ages over time in normal conditions. I hardly feel the necessity, but I will do it to convince you guys. I will come back with more data for you in following years.
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Always a tough crowd here - just ask ripster :-)
Manufacturing variation is the other main suspect, I guess. Some idea of whether Topre's +/- 15g is random, or biased at times (e.g. some years different to others) would be useful.
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I posted some evidence. It may not be accurate but still an evidence. If you want to refute my point that rubber domes harden over time, I will readily accept the counter argument if you would provide some measurement and evidence.
I have no real investment in this debate either way, but wanted to inquire about how the "hardening" of the material due to its properties is countered by the softening due to repeated flexing if we assume that the keyboard is actually being used over those years. There are threads upon threads here with people talking about how their RD keyboards get softer and mushier as they wear in/out. Why wouldn't this apply to Topre? I'd expect the softening to be a larger effect than the hardening, but admit that's just an expectation with no observations.
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I have no real investment in this debate either way, but wanted to inquire about how the "hardening" of the material due to its properties is countered by the softening due to repeated flexing if we assume that the keyboard is actually being used over those years. There are threads upon threads here with people talking about how their RD keyboards get softer and mushier as they wear in/out. Why wouldn't this apply to Topre? I'd expect the softening to be a larger effect than the hardening, but admit that's just an expectation with no observations.
They do get mushy according to 002 of Deskthority source (http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1262) But the keyboard is very old. I heard also from Korean community members that HHKB displayed in a store also felt mushy.
When rubbers age, it hardens and at the same time loose elasticity. One easy example of it would be very old rubber band. (The surface will harden and it doesn't pull back as hard when stretched.) If large enough elasticity is lost due to repeated use or age, I would say the switch is going to feel mushy. So far my HHKB doesn't feel mushy after 5 years of daily use. So, I am guessing there is some life left of my HHKB after 5 years.
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RipOmeter (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189) my neglected stored in box 87U indicates it's 5g stiffer than when I tested it last time. In other words measuring 50g on the F key.
I'll need to plug it in tomorrow, warm it up for a day or two, and retest. I bet it'll drop down to 45g levels.
Thanks for the input.
If you could, for the sake of completeness, please provide more information on the keyboard such as
1. when it was purchased and
2. how long has it been used
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I'll get some nickels and run tests on my RF when it arrives to actually contribute to the thread.
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I'll get some nickels and run tests on my RF when it arrives to actually contribute to the thread.
And please repeat the test after a couple of years hard use. This could be a long thread! :-)
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wait, so does it actuate at 52g? (Mine is still 60+ :smow:)
I also have a feeling all those "burn it in for a week" perceptions are around because their fingers are slowly getting used to the weight and not the domes softening back.
Anyhow, my topre switches needs to soften up or I get used to it, before I get RSI lol.
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I'm using wikipedia for my country's coin weights lol. No other way to find out unless I buy a small weighing machine heh.
However, seeing my cherry browns are using 45-50g to actuate, I'll say its relatively accurate.
Oh well, thanks anyways. I'll wait till monday to decide if I should offload it lol. (/wails at losing the layout)
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So Girlz now that you little spat is hopefully over.... these are the numbers:
50g
(Attachment) 44144[/ATTACH]
or around 52g using 1Yen 1.00g pieces if you want Webwit false precision (see Elitekeyboards post earlier in this thread before all the bickering).
(Attachment) 44143[/ATTACH]
I'm typing on it now after a week on the Cherry Reds. It does feel a bit stiffer but if it's anything like last time in a week my fingers will adjust.
I AM curious to see if the RipOmeter (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189) numbers come down though. They were 45g when I measured it here:
The Invention Of The RipOmeter (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189) - A MOMENTOUS Occasion In Keyboard Science
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5697&do=comments&page=6
(Attachment) 44146[/ATTACH]
Thanks for the update ripster!
To say it in other words, 50g was not but 52g was enough to actuate switches that were designed and were actually actuated at around 45g about three years ago.
These measurement is pretty similar to what I measured with HHKB that was produced in 2009.
"s" key - 50g not enough to actuate, 55g enough to actuate and bottom out
(Attachment) 40973[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 40974[/ATTACH]
I don't know if it would generalize, but it seems that the rubbers become slightly stiff even if you don't use it.
About feeling of stiffness, I think the feel has a lot to do with friction build up. Effects of friction are greatest if you trying to type fast. If friction is built up on switches then lightly tapping on the switch will not depress it and it will only depress if enough force is applied, which is increased due to the friction. This is for a brief moment like tapping on a hard surface which will give you fatigue. The increased force required to actuate didn't really bother me once I lubed the switches. However, it was rather expensive journey for me to find the just right lubricant that would perform well. I am currently trying out Krytox oils, and I like them so far. I will see how long the effect of the oil last.
So far I tried KG8 and silicone oil on my 5-year old HHKB. KG8 worked pretty well in reducing friction, but the effect wore off quite quickly. Silicone oil worked well for a while but it gave me sticky feeling after a while. I am currently trying out Krytox for two weeks and it is working well so far. The Krytox is very expensive though.
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About feeling of stiffness, I think the feel has a lot to do with friction build up. Effects of friction are greatest if you trying to type fast. If friction is built up on switches then lightly tapping on the switch will not depress it and it will only depress if enough force is applied, which is increased due to the friction. This is for a brief moment like tapping on a hard surface which will give you fatigue. The increased force required to actuate didn't really bother me once I lubed the switches. However, it was rather expensive journey for me to find the just right lubricant that would perform well. I am currently trying out Krytox oils, and I like them so far. I will see how long the effect of the oil last.
So far I tried KG8 and silicone oil on my 5-year old HHKB. KG8 worked pretty well in reducing friction, but the effect wore off quite quickly. Silicone oil worked well for a while but it gave me sticky feeling after a while. I am currently trying out Krytox for two weeks and it is working well so far. The Krytox is very expensive though.
I agree - friction has a totally different feel than spring/dome weight. Low friction and no off axis binding are two of the things I love about Realforce. Have you ever tried a PTFE "dry" lubricant?
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no wonder why i feel like topre's feels different, every time i press it. sometimes i love it, sometimes it is just too stiff...
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Here are my measurements of my 5-year old HHKB which was used daily since I bought them. I measured only the letter part of the keyboard. That is..
QWERTYUIOP[]
ASDFGHJKL;'
ZXCVBNM,./
Most of my keys support 60g without actuating.
When I put 62.5g, only 6 keys actuate. The keys that actuated at 62.5g were mostly non-alphabet keys.
Putting on 65g actuate 19 keys out of 33 keys that I test.
67.5g actuate all of the 33 tested keys.
I built custom weight system similar to webwit's(50g calibration weight + attached container for additional weights) but I use coins (nickels and pennies which respectively weigh 5g and 2.5g) instead of some sort of metal balls webwit use. I verified the weight using jeweler's scale sold on ebay for 5 bucks that measures in unit of 0.01g. The above measurements are off at most by 0.1 gram, but I think it is negligible inaccuracy for the purpose.
I don't tap my desk as ripster did because it would only lower the measurement (it would only decrease friction on the sliders by agitating. static friction vs dynamic friction). Instead I took the initiative of being thorough and measured all my keys for each time I change weights by 2.5g.
I lubricated the keys with best lubricant I could get that is safe for plastics and rubber -- Dupont Krytox. Before the lubrication some keys could support 70g without actuating.
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I agree - friction has a totally different feel than spring/dome weight. Low friction and no off axis binding are two of the things I love about Realforce. Have you ever tried a PTFE "dry" lubricant?
I consder KG8 as dry PTFE lubricant as it is PTFE powder + volatile solvent. I put the disassembled the sliders in a plastic bag and poured some KG8 so that the powder is applied. As noted, the lubrication effect didn't last long although the performance was pretty impressive. Please note that the solvent used in KG8 melts ABS plastic which is used in housing of HHKB.
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I wish someone could tell me why the hell my new hhkb feels like a 5 year old hhkb D:
But man 70g without actuating will feel so stiff D:
Also I'm pretty positive that the 37 keys are harder to depress than the alt on the bottom left for some weird reason.
(I think i'll be most happy if all my keys felt like the left alt...)
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Topres are trainer switches for BS, get you used the weightings gradualy.
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I lubricated the keys with best lubricant I could get that is safe for plastics and rubber -- Dupont Krytox.
I consder KG8 as dry PTFE lubricant as it is PTFE powder + volatile solvent. I put the disassembled the sliders in a plastic bag and poured some KG8 so that the powder is applied. As noted, the lubrication effect didn't last long although the performance was pretty impressive. Please note that the solvent used in KG8 melts ABS plastic which is used in housing of HHKB.
Have you received your RO-59? It kicks ass.
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Have you received your RO-59? It kicks ass.
Yes, I received it a while ago, but didn't use it until yesterday. Yesterday I opened up my HHKB and finally applied RO-59. The stuff is pretty slippery to touch. One thing I like about RO-59 is that it is water based, so I do not have to worry about over applying as it will dry eventually. When I opened up my Krytox lubed HHKB, I noticed there were small puddle of Krytox from over applying. Oh well.. I shouldn't have poured the lube on the sliders hoping for the best. Moreover, I should have learned from previous lesson that I should disassemble completely in order to lubricate correctly.
I painted Krytox over dried RO-59. I like it so far. Krytox tend to bead up a little on plastic surface, but when applied over RO-59 it disperses nicely. I guess RO-59 make the applied surface to have higher surface energy.
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I did the same test again after properly lubing the switches with RO-59 + Krytox GPL100 after disassembling. I did three things differently from previous lubrication with Krytox :
1. used RO-59 before applying Krytox (applied two coats of RO-59. I waited about 10 minutes for the first coat to dry before applying second coat. I let it cure overnight after the second coat.)
2. lubed the little groves where two feets of the sliders go in
3. avoided over applying the lubricant by using thin flat brush
Here are the results along with the numbers from the previous test:
60g actuates 10 keys (0 in previous test)
62.5g actuates 14 keys (6 in previous test)
65g actuates 25 keys (19 in previous test)
67.5g actuates all of the tested keys (same result as the previous test)
Since I used both Krytox GPL100 and RO-59, I cannot tell which of the lubricant works better, but I conjecture using them together creates synergy effect. The keys are lubricated just yesterday, so I think the lubricant performance is at the maximum right now. I will update how the numbers change over time as I use them.
Today, I learned doing things properly takes time and effort. (This is what ripster do from time to time. Today I learned stuff.)
Here are my measurements of my 5-year old HHKB which was used daily since I bought them. I measured only the letter part of the keyboard. That is..
QWERTYUIOP[]
ASDFGHJKL;'
ZXCVBNM,./
Most of my keys support 60g without actuating.
When I put 62.5g, only 6 keys actuate. The keys that actuated at 62.5g were mostly non-alphabet keys.
Putting on 65g actuate 19 keys out of 33 keys that I test.
67.5g actuate all of the 33 tested keys.
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So... So far we can tentatively suggest from this thread that...
1). There appears to be quite a substantial variance in the force required to actuate a topre switch. What really bothers me is the number of HHKBs actuating at almost 70g?
2). There is to be some kind of positive relationship between age of keyboard and actuation force (I'm not convinced this would be stat sig though). This effect appears to result from some combination of; a) aging rubber and, b) drying out of slider lubricant. It would nice to collect lots of data (e.g., hours of use, hours of storage/rest, amount of lube present [a difficult one]) and conduct a multiple regression analysis to find the main predictor variable (assuming there is one).
EDIT: This is always going to be a contentious issue due to the expensive nature of topre boards; no one wants to spend 400 on a type-s to find out that it is going to feel significantly worse in a few years. Topre fans (including myself) don't really want to hear this! You might get the same type of effect with Cherry or even ALPS switches, but the main difference here is you can easily replace the offending part in the switch. Their slightly more 'mechanical nature' nature makes them easier to maintain; it's slightly more difficult to replace the rubber on a topre board!
I already own two realforce boards, I'm a massive fan of ergonomic boards and I was thinking about buying the uTron at some point; is this putting me off? As I said, I'm skeptical that any effect would be statistically significant; purely because of the amount of unsystematic variance in the initial actuation ratings. So in this sense, no, I don't think is it. It is a niggling feeling though when you are spending 700 + USD on a board.
Dare I say it, Ripster is right; McRip effect.
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So... So far we can tentatively suggest from this thread that...
1). There appears to be quite a substantial variance in the force required to actuate a topre switch. What really bothers me is the number of HHKBs actuating at almost 70g?
2). There is to be some kind of positive relationship between age of keyboard and actuation force (I'm not convinced this would be stat sig though). This effect appears to result from some combination of; a) aging rubber and, b) drying out of slider lubricant. It would nice to collect lots of data (e.g., hours of use, hours of storage/rest, amount of lube present [a difficult one]) and conduct a multiple regression analysis to find the main predictor variable (assuming there is one).
Hi, welcome to the discussion.
Here are my comments on the two points you raised.
1) How many times do you see old HHKB or Realforce? Scarcity of the boards could be suggesting that they wear out and become not attractive. (I am conjecturing here. You might as argue that back than Topre boards were not as popular.) But from my experience, 5 years of daily use is probably enough for a Topre board to wear out. Topre says that their switches can handle 30 million actuation. Hence, it will wear out when it does, it wears out on multiple parts so that in order to restore the feel of a new board replacing one or two parts will not be enough. I will discuss this more in the following point. However, Cherry MX switches are better in this sense as you mentioned.
I would think there is very little incentive to publish negative information on a product that cost $300, especially when it affects resale value. I might be an odd ball there as I have no plans to resell my boards.
All I can say from my comparison is that my 5-year-old HHKB is significantly tiring when compared to like-new HHKB. This is only one observation and as you have questioned, it may not represent the true distribution of the 5-year-old HHKB. However, there is no other observation available, at least I couldn't find any. Combined with the incentive to conceal negative information, I think it is understandable that there is no such information. Unless there are fresh observations that says Topre boards are just fine after 5 years of daily use, I am lead to believe from my ONE observation that Topre boards will develop friction and rubbers will stiffen.
2) When a Topre board gets old, there are multiple parts that age as you mentioned plus some more.
a) rubber loose elasticity
b) sliders get scratched
c) slider housing is scratched
So, even if you get a hold of replacement part for aging rubber sheet, you may not be able to restore the feeling of new Topre board. I think it is pretty similar to car engines. Mercedes(high-end and expensive supposedly more durable) gets old and wears out just like other cars, and even if you replace certain components of the engine the it will not feel same as that of a new Mercedes.
Dare I say it, Ripster is right; McRip effect.
The McRip effect is so vague and subjective. Quoting ripster,
"Some hobbyist forum complaints are mere illusions and MANY are way overblown!"
this is definition of what he calls McRip effect.
My HHKB actuates at on average 64g. You might or want to call this overblown or illusion. But to me this is pretty solid. And deviation from original designed actuation force of 45 to me is huge(42% more!!). Elitekeyboards came along a couple of days ago and said they are within range of +/- 15g. Topre is selling 55g boards, and if 45g boards can actually be normal when they actuate at 60g, I am saying something is seriously wrong with their standards.
Also, minor (or sometimes undetectable by normal people or non-experts) difference are important for people who care. Professional violinists using only Stradivarius might as well be called McRip effect. What SEEMS to be an illusion for a normal people is NOT an illusion for people who can discern differences and have preference over this little difference. I would respect their choices rather than calling it some effect. Of course not all violinist need Stradivarius, so ripster's point is valid in some sense, but I think ripster's application of McRip effect is too much of a generalization.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2012/jan/03/stradivarius-v-modern-violins-study
my iPad will never get stiff
Your iPad will be outdated and not be used in two years, just like an old laptop.
I guess there were a lot of ripsters out there doing blind tests on Stradivarius. What I meant to convey from the Stradivarius example was that for non-experts it is hard to discern difference between 10K and 1K violins, while experts can spot the differences. I guess there are more than a couple studies on this issue and Stradivarius is not significantly preferred to modern ones. However, the modern ones are still expensive and top-of-the-line, around 30K.
Edit: I said compared modern violins cost around 10K, but I was mistaken. Three modern violins used for comparison seem to cost around 100K according to this article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/jan/02/how-many-notes-violinist-stradivarius)
The three old instruments had a combined value of $10m, a hundred times that of the modern violins.
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Of course I was a moron when I said my HHKB felt heavy.
Whatever.
Don't pay any attention to the horse with more **** than brains.
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Of course I was a moron when I said my HHKB felt heavy.
Whatever.
Don't pay any attention to the horse with more **** than brains.
Are you still using the HHKB? Would you provide actuation force measurements?
From about three years of use, I had a feeling that my HHKB was not performing as well as it was new, but at the moment I didn't have a reference point to compare the old HHKB. It was about that time when I began researching lubricants for HHKB. Now that I have another HHKB, I compare them side by side and I can certainly say used HHKB feels different when compared to like-new HHKB. Old one is way more tiring than the new one. The feeling of tiredness seems to be coming from increased friction as well as stiffening rubber domes.
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Unfortunately, I sold my HHKB. I still have my RF, however. Variation doesn't surprise me, though. Your dealing with rubber and plastic; there's always going to be some variation.
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My HHKB actuates at on average 64g. You might or want to call this overblown or illusion. But to me this is pretty solid. And deviation from original designed actuation force of 45 to me is huge(42% more!!). Elitekeyboards came along a couple of days ago and said they are within range of +/- 15g. Topre is selling 55g boards, and if 45g boards can actually be normal when they actuate at 60g, I am saying something is seriously wrong with their standards.
I completely agree with you, a deviation of +/- 15g is half of the force required to actuate one of the 30g pinky switches!
"Sorry Sir, you ordered an all 45g board and you think you have a variable weighted board? Never mind Sir, I'll let you in on a little secret; due to the way the switches are made, there is a chance that every board we make is variable weighted... lolololol."
Unless there are fresh observations that says Topre boards are just fine after 5 years of daily use, I am lead to believe from my ONE observation that Topre boards will develop friction and rubbers will stiffen.
Ouch, that's a dangerous game you're playing. What happens if you are the freakishly bad board? What happens if the fresh HHKBs after five years are the freakishly good boards? Who is right? Topre switches may feel very different after 5 years use, but (and it is a crucial but); the point I'm trying to make is... It is highly unlikely to be a real effect in the population! Due to the seemingly lax tolerances in the switches (see above), this or any other scientific test of difference (see below):
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44986[/ATTACH]
Is higher unlikely to be able to detect any 'real' difference; it would be unlikely to matter how many HHKBs you tested, there would be too much random variance floating around. Any difference which you tested would always be the chance finding (because, there isn't a real effect in the population)! So in this sense, yes, there may be a difference, but, perhaps it wouldn't be big enough to be mathematically or rather statistically, 'real'.
It's that black or white (for me at least).
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Ouch, that's a dangerous game your playing. What happens if you are the freakishly bad board? What happens if the individual with the the fresh HHKB after five years is the freakishly good board? Who is right? Topre switches may feel very different after 5 years use, but (and it is a crucial but); the point I'm trying to make is... It is highly unlikely to be a real effect in the population! Due to the seemingly lax tolerances in the switches (see above), this or any other scientific test of difference (see below):
(Attachment) 44986[/ATTACH]
Is higher unlikely to be able to detect any 'real' difference; it would be unlikely to matter how many HHKBs you tested, there would be too much random variance floating around. Any difference which you tested would always be the chance finding (because, there isn't a real effect in the population)! So in this sense, yes, there may be a difference, but, perhaps it wouldn't be big enough to be mathematically or rather statistically, 'real'.
It's that black or white (for me at least).
What I am doing here is similar to what statisticians call Bayesian updating. One observation certainly carries a lot of weight when there is only one observation available. Some statisticians hate the idea, but I think it makes more than enough sense in real life situations.
As you noted, it is impossible to control for everything and get precise testing if you narrow down your hypothesis. But if you are fine with lax hypothesis, I am guessing you could get some results. It would be nice to control for everything, but if it is impossible to do so, you could at least say somethings although not sharp. For instance, I could make my hypothesis dull and test the following. Does Topre board change actuation force over time on average? (a board may be used or not, kept in cool and dry place or not)
I think the biggest problem here is that there is simply no sample available. Even if observations are available, due to skewed incentives to conceal negative information the observations will be biased. However, the bias problem is secondary. Putting in reasonable assumptions on the initial actuation force, I think you could get some statistical results. The reasonable assumption would be that on average Topre get their actuation force correct with some variance. This would complicate the t-test a bit (since you didn't observe the initial state), but even if you use standard t-test of difference from null (that is, under null HHKB actuates at 45g for sure) it would be meaningful. You could check robustness using simulated observations drawn from a distribution, but this is already getting pretty complicated..
You are saying there is too much variation, but without proper samples of measurements, how would you assess that such large variation exists? How can you distinguish cross-sectional variance(variance across HHKB produced at one time) from time-series variance(variances across HHKB with different manufacturing dates)?
I am guessing you would know any statistical or mathematical results are coming from assumptions or axioms. So, my putting in assumptions will not be so problematic, although you may disagree on specifics of my assumptions.
I disagree more on one particular point you raised:
it would be unlikely to matter how many HHKBs you tested, there would be too much random variance floating around.
If large enough observations are made, random variances will be canceled out and you will be able to figure out population parameter. See law of large numbers. Of course some weak assumptions has to be made for what I just said to be true.
Edit:
Wikipedia listing of law of large numbers is dumb-down version of the theorem, and less general than most general version of the theorem. I am adding this note in case you argue that the conditions of the theorem is not satisfied. The conditions of most general version of the theorem are so easy to satisfy that it would be note worthily special if they are not satisfied. Of course this is theory and mileage from actual application may vary case by case, but I am mentioning this since you raised a theoretical point. Personally, I think the variations you mention here is random and independent enough that the theorem works just fine.
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My 87U is still 50g this morning.
How old is the model? how much time have you done on it?
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and my 2.5 week old hhkb is still 60g odd on the 37 keys :P
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i wish the radiation softened the rubber instead.
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well /flails arm around. maybe god is telling me to use it to train my fingers.
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Two years old. I'd say a good 4 months of constant use. I can tell because the spacebar is NICE AND ****ING SHINY!
I like Cherry MX better.
I'm almost certain that it is identical to the day I took it out of the box. It's just my fingers take a week to fully adjust.
The McRip Effect (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23217-Announcing-the-LATEST-Ripster-Keyboard-Theorem-The-quot-McRip-Effect-quot-!).
You seem to be a victim of McRip effect.
Your perception of Topre boards will not change its feel over time or your eagerness to say some findings are McRip effect is blinding yourself from hard fact from your own observation that the switches actuated at 52g while they could support 50g without actuating. As I noted numerous times, your dithering method is under measuring the actuation force. If certain keys are sticky, they require more force to actuate. You can not just ignore the stickiness by tapping your fingers three times. I personally think sticky keys are one of the major reasons why a certain keyboard is tiring.
Perhaps you are suffering from Golden McRip effect syndrome(aka Maslow's Hammer, Golden hammer, The Law Of The McRip Effect, Ripster's McRip Effect).
Also, it is funny that you can be almost certain that the switches are identical to the day you took it out of the box. Any comparison over time relying on sensory memory is no where near accurate. I would be skeptical of a comparison relying on memory if comparison was done couple of hours apart, but two years?? ripster, come on...
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The McRip Effect is pseudoscience and useless like most of ripster's other theories. The guy usually doesn't care about accuracy, and he prefers to ignore valid arguments, because he can't prove them wrong, so instead he will just overwhelmingly repeat his self-advertising propaganda relying on your ignorance while addressing ad hominem attacks against the messenger. This is his secret sure-fire way to gain him fame among noobs and ignorant geekhackers on the intertubes.
Repetition is the key here, as his primary target is to contaminate new geekhackers mind with his false ideas, while making the counter-arguments disappear due to the artificial noise he created in the process. He has been doing this for so long, hence the over 54k posts.
The worst part is that his strategy works very well, since most knowledgeable senior geekhackers neither care or have the time, tenacity and diligence to correct him all the time, and report him for spamming. All the noob votes in his favour in the rank #1 poll just prove my point even further.
This is the exact attitude that renders most of his content dangerously misleading and wrong. I warned you.
Edit: If you argree with this feel free to add a link to this post in your sig.
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i don't know if my data will be of any use but I was bored and decided to do a more systematic test like limmy's a few posts back.
(test only involves 33 keys in the middle, and for future references, my hhkb is manufactured in 2011/nov, and date today is 2012/march: actual use is only 2 weeks though)
at 45g: 3 keys
at 52.5g, 4 additional (7)
at 55g, 2 additional (9)
at 57.5g, 14 additional (23)
at 60g, 10 additional keys (33)
Also, interestingly, for some of the keys, if i leave the coins there and just wait for a few more seconds (without tapping on the table), they slowly collapse and actuates. It almost feels like the coins are JUST enough, so it takes awhile for the rubber domes to collapse or it might just be overcoming the friction, no idea.
In comparison, on my Filco cherry browns, almost every key actuates at 45g or lower and very selected few at 50g.
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The McRip Effect is pseudoscience and useless like most of ripster's other theories. The guy usually doesn't care about accuracy, and he prefers to ignore valid arguments, because he can't prove them wrong, so instead he will just overwhelmingly repeat his self-advertising propaganda relying on your ignorance while addressing ad hominem attacks against the messenger. This is his secret sure-fire way to gain him fame among noobs and ignorant geekhackers on the intertubes.
Repetition is the key here, as his primary target is to contaminate new geekhackers mind with his false ideas, while making the counter-arguments disappear due to the artificial noise he created in the process. He has been doing this for so long, hence the over 54k posts.
The worst part is that his strategy works very well, since most knowledgeable senior geekhackers neither care or have the time, tenacity and diligence to correct him all the time, and report him for spamming. All the noob votes in his favour in the rank #1 poll just prove my point even further.
This is the exact attitude that renders most of his content dangerously misleading and wrong. I warned you.
Edit: If you argree with this feel free to add a link to this post in your sig.
I think McRip Effect has own merit although it is effective to only part of the population. If I understood McRip Effect correctly it is about focusing on little effects and differences and making it a big deal. Yes, little differences may not really matter to non-enthusiasts, but for some people even smallest difference is important. I recently bought a flashlight from ebay for 8 bucks and didn't really care about different mods what kind of LED used, but there seem to people paying attention to littlest details. I do not consider myself as a flashlight enthusiast and pretty much everything that flashlight enthusiasts say wouldn't really be persuasive unless I dig deeper and become one.
ripster is sometimes silent about certain things that I point out, e.g. Golden McRip Effect syndrome. I think he agrees to some degree when he is silent. Or maybe he didn't really understand or read what I was saying...
I understand your discontent RiGS, but I must admit for new comers ripster's information and documentation is very helpful. Also, he likes to document and write stuff and that is helpful for many people. I don't really value and understand his jokes, but I would accept them as one of side effects of the benefits ripster provide to this community.
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i don't know if my data will be of any use but I was bored and decided to do a more systematic test like limmy's a few posts back.
(test only involves 33 keys in the middle, and for future references, my hhkb is manufactured in 2011/nov, and date today is 2012/march: actual use is only 2 weeks though)
at 45g: 3 keys
at 52.5g, 4 additional (7)
at 55g, 2 additional (9)
at 57.5g, 14 additional (23)
at 60g, 10 additional keys (33)
Also, interestingly, for some of the keys, if i leave the coins there and just wait for a few more seconds (without tapping on the table), they slowly collapse and actuates. It almost feels like the coins are JUST enough, so it takes awhile for the rubber domes to collapse or it might just be overcoming the friction, no idea.
In comparison, on my Filco cherry browns, almost every key actuates at 45g or lower and very selected few at 50g.
Thanks for the data! It is not as bad as I thought was.
My like-new HHKB produced in 2009 has following results.
50g - 2 - []
52.5g - 3(+1) - [] '
55g - 9(+6) - ert [] s ' c n
57.5g - 28(+19) - qwertyu [] asdfghjkl;' zxcvbnm,
60g - 33(+5) - qwertyuiop[] asdfghjkl;' zxcvbnm,./
Average actuation force of the tested keys is 56.81g. Comparing it with your results, I think it is pretty similar with my like-new HHKB, which was produced 3 years ago (manufacturing date was 2009-02).
My five-year-old HHKB's actuation force results are..
55g - 1 - '
57.5g - 3(+2) - [ ' m
60g - 7(+4) - [] k ' nm,
62.5g - 12(+5) - [] hjk ;' nm,./
65g - 26(+14) - qw rtyuiop[] asd ghjkl;' nm,./
67.5g - 33(+7) - qwertyuiop[] asdfghjkl;' zxcvbnm,./
Average actuation force of tested keys are 63.78. Difference between the averages is 7g. Which is not huge in number, but it is significant enough for me that I find the new one to be much more comfortable to type on. The old one give much more tactile feed back, however. I have been using HHKB as my daily driver for 5 years, so I am pretty used to type on these. However, the increased required force is bad enough that I get tired after for a prolonged use. My fingers didn't get any stronger it seems..
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wow, and there I was thinking my set was behaving like a 5 year old. I was hoping that some day I'll find a "normal" HHKB after having sold that. Guess thats not happening, is it? D:
And yeah, I would agree that 7g definitely makes a difference to some people (me inclusive)... probably more so after spending entire days on the keyboards. Fatigue does build up imo..
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I will attempt to RipOmeter my iPad when I get a chance.
My guesstimate is 10 g.
Sent From Brother Ripster's iPad
Your ripometer has to be capacitive to work. It will require no force just need to be close to the screen. Try it with your gold ring.
You need to know theory before using empirical methods.
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Somebody willing to trade a White Switch????
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22259-Ripsters-Novelty-Key-Trade-Thread
I have a white switch if you want one.
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The Golden McRip Effect? What? I just post the link and it has lots of pics backing up my opinion -The McRip Effect (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23217-Announcing-the-LATEST-Ripster-Keyboard-Theorem-The-quot-McRip-Effect-quot-!). If there is something wrong in the theorem post it in the theorem thread or ignore the link. It's like me saying I like Filcos. Not everybody HAS to like Filcos.
Okay. I am more sympathetic(?) if calling something McRip Effect is expression of your opinion. I read the post and I commented on it.
The Golden McRip Effect is the term that I made up inspired by Maslow's hammer or law of the instrument which you introduced to me the other day (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?28458-Would-sexual-lubricant-work&p=542830&viewfull=1#post542830). You said I was suffering from law of the instrument, but didn't tell me in what context. I am kidding for the most part though. I am not a psychology guy.
Also, you are saying that "it is still 50g". What does that mean? Do all of your keys support 50g without being depressed? Or does it mean that you put 50g and tap your keyboard tray 3 times with your finger then the weight drops? Some of keys on my like-new HHKB can support 57.5g without actuation, don't you have any of those switches? I appreciate your measurements and participation in this discussion.
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I thought yo understood what I was saying when I said that one needs to know theory behind in order to make correct use of empirical methodology?
iPad has capacitative screen and it doesn't require force to register. So, using coins to measure something doesn't mean much. Try all you can trying to press the screen with wooden stick, it will not register. I believe it is the amount of finger surface(or any other material that is conducive) that is touching the screen. that is at least how my phone works.
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iPad has capacitative screen
or any other material that is conducive
You need a material that is capacitive, like this --> http://bit.ly/GSJBFM . Conductive wont get you there unless there is something capacitive behind it.
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I think it is about time to summarize the measurements and findings so far.
My hypothesis is Topre keys stiffen over time and use.
I measured actuation forces of 33 keys "QWERTYUIOP[]ASDFGHJKL;'ZXCVBNM,./" on my HHKB.
Here is how you read my results:
weight tested - number of keys actuated(number of additional keys actuated - list of keys actuated
Results from 5-year-old(manufactured on Aug 2006) HHKB used for 5 years. Lubricated using RO-59 and Krytox GPL100.
55g - 1 - '
57.5g - 3(+2) - [ ' m
60g - 7(+4) - [] k ' nm,
62.5g - 12(+5) - [] hjk ;' nm,./
65g - 26(+14) - qw rtyuiop[] asd ghjkl;' nm,./
67.5g - 33(+7) - qwertyuiop[] asdfghjkl;' zxcvbnm,./
Average actuation force 63.78g
Results from three-year-old(manufactured on Feb 2009 HHKB) in like new condition:
50g - 2 - []
52.5g - 3(+1) - [] '
55g - 9(+6) - ert [] s ' c n
57.5g - 28(+19) - qwertyu [] asdfghjkl;' zxcvbnm,
60g - 33(+5) - qwertyuiop[] asdfghjkl;' zxcvbnm,./
Average actuation force is 56.81g
This is the weight system I used.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]45592[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]45593[/ATTACH]
Whenever I increase the weight by 2.5g(this is how much each US penny weighs), I test the 33 keys. I put the weight two to three times on different points of key face if it doesn't drop in the first try. So this measurement is somewhat downward biased, but I chose to introduce such small bias in exchange of reducing uncertainties on the measurement. Also this downward bias work against my hypothesis of stiffening of keys.
Aranair was kind enough to post his measurment on his new HHKB (produced on Nov 2011): source (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=552219#post552219)
45g - 3
52.5g - 7(+4)
55g - 9(+2)
57.5g - 23(+14)
60g - 33(+10)
Average actuation force is 56.36g. This is pretty similar to my like-new HHKB.
Ripster provided some measurements, but I am not really sure what he means by measurement of 50g. I initially thought he meant putting 50g on a key would actuate the key, but his own picture here shows otherwise. All theee keys in the picture is not actuated when he puts on 50g.
This is his measurement on 14 Mar 2012, which shows 50g was NOT enough to actuate but 52g was enough.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]45594[/ATTACH]
measurements and photos are from here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=546243&viewfull=1#post546243)
Although Ripster keeps saying that
1. he doesn't feel anything changed over time for this Realforce 87U keyboard
2. he gets same measurement
this is in contrast to his own finding. When a self-proclaimed scientist relies on feeling rather than measurements and even misinterpret measurements, I say something is fishy.
There were only three people who participated and actually post their measurements. I obtained full measurements of 3 HHKBs(one heavily used and two like-new), one suspicious measurement from ripster. This lack of providing measurement could be due to incentive for users conceal negative information on the products they use or love. They are incentivised to act that way for possibly two reasons. 1. they fear the resale value is negatively affected, 2. they don't like to hear bad things about what they love. However, I cannot really rule out that they don't really care.
So far, from what I observe, I tentatively conclude that
1. using HHKB for a while will stiffen the switches.
2. storing it in cool and dry place and not using it will not change key feel that much.
3. Topre's specification of 45g +/- 15g generally works but we only see measurement towards +15g. (This is shame on Topre, because they are selling 45g and 55g boards separately, but it turns out 45g board will be likely to actuate close to 55g range.)
This conclusion is from a small number of observations which may or may not represent true population of HHKB or Topre switches. If you have any other information that says otherwise, I am open to revise my conclusion and say I was unlucky one.
-
eh, ripster you actually measured the topres with ripometer on the day you got it?!
-
This is measurement of my moded HHKB. It is given variable rubber sheet, silencing moded and lubed with RO-59.
Backslash, backquote and Fn key still have HHKB rubber cup while other alpha and numeric key part have variable rubber sheet.
I'll measure my other HHKBs as well later if I have time.
Weights to register(actuate) 2012/03/23
HHKB pro(PD-KB300 2003-05) with variable weighted rubber sheet from Realforce 101(2007 maybe), silencing mod and lubricated by RO-59.
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|43 |34 |40 |47 |45 |48 |50 |49 |48 |43 |35 |35 |36 |55 |55 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|47 |33 |41 |51 |49 |50 |49 |50 |51 |43 |36 |36 |37 |44 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|49 |34 |41 |50 |51 |52 |51 |51 |50 |44 |37 |37 |41 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |35 |42 |50 |53 |52 |51 |51 |50 |45 |36 |45 |61 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|54 |50 | 40 |50 |58 |
`-------------------------------------------'
-
This is measurement of my moded HHKB. It is given variable rubber sheet, silencing moded and lubed with RO-59.
Backslash, backquote and Fn key still have HHKB rubber cup while other alpha and numeric key part have variable rubber sheet.
I'll measure my other HHKBs as well later if I have time.
Weights to register(actuate) 2012/03/23
HHKB pro(PD-KB300 2003-05) with variable weighted rubber sheet from Realforce 101(2007 maybe), silencing mod and lubricated by RO-59.
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|43 |34 |40 |47 |45 |48 |50 |49 |48 |43 |35 |35 |36 |55 |55 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|47 |33 |41 |51 |49 |50 |49 |50 |51 |43 |36 |36 |37 |44 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|49 |34 |41 |50 |51 |52 |51 |51 |50 |44 |37 |37 |41 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |35 |42 |50 |53 |52 |51 |51 |50 |45 |36 |45 |61 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|54 |50 | 40 |50 |58 |
`-------------------------------------------'
Thanks for the measurement, hasu. This is pretty impressive and thorough.
I didn't have serious problems on switches that uses a single rubber dome, such as control, shift, tab, etc. That is why I focused on the middle part, where two large pieces of rubber sheet is used.
There is one possible factor that could have negatively affected(reduced) the actuation force, namely the silencing mod. In my old HHKB, if I depress the switch slightly(not pressing anymore but let my finger stay in place) and then put on weights, the measured actuation force tend to be smaller than what I measured before. I am not sure how significant of effect this mod created, because I do not have measurements on how much key travel distance is reduced by the mod, but I would like to try the mod sometime in an effort to reduce the actuation force.
So it seems from measurements from hasu and ripster that Realforce variables are likely to be within spec after some time.
This is pretty similar to mine. The gradient decline from 45/35g is a gradual one.
Details in the Topre Wiki.
I also would suspect RO-59 doesn't affect RipOmeter (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189) measurements all that much.
Yes, I saw that information on the wiki, how the actuation force declines gradually on 35/45g border. However, when I searched for the basis of the claim, I didn't really locate actual measurement, but only one post by wellington1869 that simply stated without mentioning any measurement that it is 40g (see here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Topre+Realforce+Reference+-+all+things+topre&p=113235&viewfull=1#post113235)) I might have missed the discussion somewhere else, but any claim has to be backed up by measurement and proper sources.
However, looking at the same result, I have a different opinion on RO-59. I think it preserves the original smoothness over time. As I noted before, the sliders when unlubed get scratched. So, I conjecture that if the sliders are properly lubed, it may extend its life considerably. (I heard from a mechanical engineer that anything that moves it is critical that proper lubrication is present.)
-
This is result of my another moded HHKB pro(+silencing mod + RO-59 but original rubber sheet) and two HHKB pro2s without mod.
Weights to register(actuate) 2012/03/26
HHKB pro(PD-KB300 2004-11) with silencing mod and lubricated by RO-59.
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|48 |52 |54 |53 |53 |55 |52 |56 |58 |54 |52 |52 |49 |53 |53 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|50 |53 |54 |56 |54 |55 |54 |53 |53 |52 |50 |52 |53 |46 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|52 |53 |52 |54 |54 |52 |53 |47 |52 |51 |49 |46 |47 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|50 |51 |52 |54 |54 |53 |53 |53 |51 |53 |51 |52 |53 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|52 |52 | 59/49 *1 |45 |51 |
`-------------------------------------------'
*1 with/without spring under space bar
Weights to register(actuate) 2012/03/26
HHKB pro2(PD-KB400W 2007-10) I bought this used HHKB for spare and I myself hardly use it.
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|48 |51 |52 |51 |49 |50 |56 |57 |57 |58 |56 |54 |52 |56 |51 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|50 |55 |54 |54 |55 |54 |57 |57 |60 |60 |58 |51 |53 |52 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |56 |56 |58 |56 |54 |53 |55 |56 |57 |56 |57 |43 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|50 |57 |59 |58 |56 |58 |54 |57 |55 |53 |55 |50 |53 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|47 |55 | 58/47 *1 |47 |47 |
`-------------------------------------------'
*1 with/without spring under space bar
Weights to register(actuate) 2012/03/26
HHKB pro2(PD-KB400W 2010-08) I bought this used HHKB for spare and I myself hardly use it.
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|39 |46 |49 |53 |57 |54 |54 |53 |54 |54 |53 |49 |47 |47 |45 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|46 |50 |58 |58 |61 |61 |59 |56 |61 |59 |58 |47 |49 |46 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |54 |58 |63 |62 |61 |54 |56 |60 |59 |59 |45 |49 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|42 |56 |57 |55 |56 |56 |56 |56 |57 |62 |60 |49 |46 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|44 |42 | 53/44 *1 |47 |45 |
`-------------------------------------------'
*1 with/without spring under space bar
-
lol. man, the variance is amazing. I would think they would have it under more control at those kind of prices.
-
Upon cursory reviewing of the new data, there seems to be quite a variance.
Also, I notice that there seems to be no clear correlation between the age of the board and the actuation force.
There are several things that stand out from measurements from 4 HHKBs that hasu posted:
1. lubed and silence-mod boards tend to have lower actuation force
2. letter keys tend to have bigger actuation force (this is what I feel from my 2 HHKBs too)
3. the space bar spring adds about 10g to the actuation force
I will measure my HHKB again so that it would have similar format as hasu's measurement and complete full measurements of 6 HHKB. (4 from Hasu, and 2 from me)
Most of the boards are used, 5 out of 7 HHKB we saw so far were used. So, it is hard to tell whether the variance we see is out of the factory variance or the variance has built up due to usage. Also, it seems to me that how it is taken care of is an important factor, but it would be very hard to draw conclusions from them. I think lubing and protecting the sliders are important, but that is my conjecture so far and only backed up by a couple of cases.
-
My HHKB Type-S is nearly new. I only have 1p coins (3.56g) to measure with. Every key is weighing the same 56.96g (16 coins). I would like to find a better way of measuring this as I seem to have one of the only boards that measures the same througout.
I type quite a lot on this board and will update over the months how it wears.
-
I have measured my HHKB again. My measurement have gone down a little bit, possibly due to tilting the board so that the face of the keys are parallel to my desk. Along with raw data, I drew a chart in Excel for visual representation of the numbers.
HHKB pro2 (2009-02) in like-new condition. (03/26/2012)
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|50 |53 |53 |50 |48 |50 |53 |55 |53 |53 |55 |50 |53 |48 |48 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|43 |55 |55 |55 |53 |55 |53 |53 |58 |58 |60 |48 |45 |48 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |55 |55 |58 |58 |58 |55 |55 |58 |55 |55 |48 |50 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|50 |55 |58 |53 |55 |55 |53 |53 |55 |55 |58 |53 |50 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|48 |50 | 53 |50 |48 |
`-------------------------------------------'
NOTE: 43=42.5, 48=47.5, 53=52.5, 58=57.5
HHKB pro2 (2006-08) used for 5 years daily. (03/26/2012)
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|48 |58 |60 |63 |60 |60 |63 |63 |63 |60 |63 |48 |50 |48 |48 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |63 |65 |65 |63 |63 |60 |63 |63 |63 |60 |58 |58 |50 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|55 |60 |63 |65 |65 |65 |58 |60 |58 |58 |58 |53 |50 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|53 |65 |68 |63 |65 |65 |55 |55 |60 |63 |63 |53 |55 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|55 |55 | 60 |55 |50 |
`-------------------------------------------'
NOTE: 43=42.5, 48=47.5, 53=52.5, 58=57.5, 63=62.5, 68=67.5
source (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=556319#post556319)
Weights to register(actuate) 2012/03/23
HHKB pro(PD-KB300 2003-05) with variable weighted rubber sheet from Realforce 101(2007 maybe), silencing mod and lubricated by RO-59.
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|43 |34 |40 |47 |45 |48 |50 |49 |48 |43 |35 |35 |36 |55 |55 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|47 |33 |41 |51 |49 |50 |49 |50 |51 |43 |36 |36 |37 |44 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|49 |34 |41 |50 |51 |52 |51 |51 |50 |44 |37 |37 |41 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |35 |42 |50 |53 |52 |51 |51 |50 |45 |36 |45 |61 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|54 |50 | 40 |50 |58 |
`-------------------------------------------'
source (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=556850&viewfull=1#post556850)
Weights to register(actuate) 03/26/2012
HHKB pro(PD-KB300 2004-11) with silencing mod and lubricated by RO-59.
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|48 |52 |54 |53 |53 |55 |52 |56 |58 |54 |52 |52 |49 |53 |53 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|50 |53 |54 |56 |54 |55 |54 |53 |53 |52 |50 |52 |53 |46 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|52 |53 |52 |54 |54 |52 |53 |47 |52 |51 |49 |46 |47 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|50 |51 |52 |54 |54 |53 |53 |53 |51 |53 |51 |52 |53 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|52 |52 | 59/49 *1 |45 |51 |
`-------------------------------------------'
*1 with/without spring under space bar
source (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=556850&viewfull=1#post556850)
Weights to register(actuate) 03/26/2012
HHKB pro2(PD-KB400W 2007-10) purchased used, but not used recently
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|48 |51 |52 |51 |49 |50 |56 |57 |57 |58 |56 |54 |52 |56 |51 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|50 |55 |54 |54 |55 |54 |57 |57 |60 |60 |58 |51 |53 |52 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |56 |56 |58 |56 |54 |53 |55 |56 |57 |56 |57 |43 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|50 |57 |59 |58 |56 |58 |54 |57 |55 |53 |55 |50 |53 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|47 |55 | 58/47 *1 |47 |47 |
`-------------------------------------------'
*1 with/without spring under space bar
source (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=556850&viewfull=1#post556850)
Weights to register(actuate) 03/26/2012
HHKB pro2(PD-KB400W 2010-08) purchased used, but not used recently
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|39 |46 |49 |53 |57 |54 |54 |53 |54 |54 |53 |49 |47 |47 |45 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|46 |50 |58 |58 |61 |61 |59 |56 |61 |59 |58 |47 |49 |46 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |54 |58 |63 |62 |61 |54 |56 |60 |59 |59 |45 |49 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|42 |56 |57 |55 |56 |56 |56 |56 |57 |62 |60 |49 |46 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|44 |42 | 53/44 *1 |47 |45 |
`-------------------------------------------'
*1 with/without spring under space bar
[ATTACH=CONFIG]45783[/ATTACH]
-
My HHKB Type-S is nearly new. I only have 1p coins (3.56g) to measure with. Every key is weighing the same 56.96g (16 coins). I would like to find a better way of measuring this as I seem to have one of the only boards that measures the same througout.
I type quite a lot on this board and will update over the months how it wears.
Thank you for your participation. All same key weighting is indeed something new. I noticed that there is inherent error in measuring peak actuation forces in Topre. Webwit once mentioned the randomness too in his measurement. So, I think using 3.56g coins are fine as long as you measure more than a couple keys. Due to this random nature, I think multiple measurement would be desirable. (either it is multiple measurement of a single key or multiple measurement of multiple keys)
Also, I find from the 6 samples I have that the rubber domes that are single(not bound to each other) tend to have lighter actuation forces. I would guess it is the same for you. Did you measure only the alpha keys, or did you measure other keys as well, e.g. alt, tab, etc?
-
How and where have you been lubing the switches? I'm not getting the uniform smoothness one expects of a stupidly expensive keyboard, the travel of some keys are slightly frictiony and some are not. Don't have anything quantitative but in the two brand new uniform weighted boards I've had some keys definitely feel heavier than others - arrow keys and tilde the lightest, alphanumeric area the heaviest, modifiers and rest of board somewhere in between.
-
I just measured some mechanical boards in hand but only checked home row.
From this result the consistency of Cherry switch is impressive.
Though I've never felt inconsistency on my HHKB and don't like key feel on those Pokers.
keybord & switch A S D F G H J K L ; ' Return
-----------------------------------------------------------------
PokerX Cherry Red 41 42 42 42 42 41 40 42 41 40 41 40
PokerX Cherry Brown 49 48 49 47 48 49 48 48 48 48 48 49
X68000 ALPS Green 52 50 47 50 49 47 51 53 48 51 49 47
G80-3600 Cherry Red 38 37 38 39 38 38 38 39 39 39 39 37
These Pokers are slightly used and X68000 keyboard came from two decades ago.
(X68000: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:29060)
lol. man, the variance is amazing. I would think they would have it under more control at those kind of prices.
-
Also, I find from the 6 samples I have that the rubber domes that are single(not bound to each other) tend to have lighter actuation forces. I would guess it is the same for you. Did you measure only the alpha keys, or did you measure other keys as well, e.g. alt, tab, etc?
You are right. They are lighter by around 10g.
-
How and where have you been lubing the switches? I'm not getting the uniform smoothness one expects of a stupidly expensive keyboard, the travel of some keys are slightly frictiony and some are not. Don't have anything quantitative but in the two brand new uniform weighted boards I've had some keys definitely feel heavier than others - arrow keys and tilde the lightest, alphanumeric area the heaviest, modifiers and rest of board somewhere in between.
If it is new, I hear it gets smoother as you use it. As for the lubing method, you can see the following tip by hasu
I applied cylinder part and foot of plunger, and hole and foot rail of housing. Namely I think you'd better apply all of sliding surface.
And I applied it twice with small brush one by one, it is very PITA work.
Though I don't know that dunk method I don't recommend to apply PTFE to part not needed.
In order to properly lube HHKB, you would have to disassemble your HKKB completely. If you have rubber and plastic safe lube and want to quickly try it out, you could brush it on the sliders after taking the key caps off. Do not put drops onto the sliders as it would make your sliders sticky(do not over apply). I tried Krytox GPL 100 and I like it so far.(search ebay with keyword krytox 100) If you can get a hold of RO-59, I would recommend that.
I would recommend taking it apart, but if you don't want to put so much time on it, you could try the brush method.
Caution: You would want lubricant that is safe to ABS plastic and EPDM rubber. And do not over apply the lube.
-
Here are some summary stats of the measurement data we have.
Man. dt Avg SD Avg* SD* Note
2009-02 52.85 3.64 53.95 3.21 #1
2006-08 58.71 5.47 60.60 4.46 #2
2004-11 52.16 2.62 52.60 2.13 #3
2007-10 54.03 3.65 55.28 2.55 #4
2010-08 53.16 6.02 55.41 4.69 #5
2003-05 45.65 6.81 44.65 6.71 #6
Man. dt = manufacturing date
Avg = average of actuation weight of all keys
SD = standard deviation of actuation weight of all keys
Avg* = average of actuation weight of alphanumeric keys
SD* = standard deviation of actuation weight of alphanumeric keys
Notes
#1 measurement by limmy - HHKB2 like-new condition
#2 measurement by limmy - HHKB2 used daily for 5 years
#3 measurement by hasu - HHKB1 silence mod, lubed with RO-59
#4 measurement by hasu - HHKB2 purchased used, not used after the purchase
#5 measurement by hasu - HHKB2 purchased used, not used after the purchase
#6 measurement by hasu - HHKB1 silence mod, lubed with RO-59, variable-weight rubber dome from Realforce 101(purchased around 2007)
Please see here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=556996&viewfull=1#post556996) for raw data and their original sources.
-
ripster's way of over-generalization is just amazing.
I think one would know what McRip Effect really is once he/she takes a look at his list of theorems.
Here are some examples:
Ripster's KeyAboo Theorem (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?28622)
Geekhack is now 99% Asian or are weeaboos and/or keyaboos.
Ripster's Weight Theorem: Build Quality is Directly Correlated To Weight of Keyboard (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22069)
Build Quality is Directly Correlated to the Weight of the Keyboard.
Ripster's LATEST Keyboard Theory - The McKEYMouse Effect (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23786)
Noobs decorate their keyboards with little sense of restraint and color coordination, pay too much, and have too many Interest Checks (GLWIC) but think it's cool because other people are doing it.
McRip Effect is just one of his own theories and opinion of things. I once took it seriously looking only at what he claims in his McRip Effect, but I have learned not to take it so seriously from the discussions with him and seeing his other theorems. I think McRip Effect and views therein are only useful for a novice who do not care about relatively small things and improvements.
The on-average 7g difference between my two HHKB is huge and I bet any one who typed them side by side would recognize the difference right away. The numbers from RipOmeter or any of the sort is only representing one facet of the whole picture. Moreover, ripster's measurement here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=546243&viewfull=1#post546243) suggests his measurement increased by 7g. And I do not see anywhere that his measurement was indeed 50g when he purchased it, moreover I see many cases that his measurement was 45g. Does that really mean ripster's measurement was the same?
Looking at new data from members here, I learned following new things.
1. Topre stiffening is not as severe as I initially thought it would be. Especially for boards that are kept in storage and not used. Ripster's RF was used only for 4 months and it is probably why his weight change was not significant and not so different from designed peak force of 45g.
2. New Topre board's that are designed to have 45g peak force usually require more force. The average of peak force on alphanumeric keys from two newly produced HHKB was about 55g.
Thanks!
And as I put away my Topre it STILL is RipOmeter (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189) measuring the same as the day I bought it. I will add all this to The McRip Effect (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23217-Announcing-the-LATEST-Ripster-Keyboard-Theorem-The-quot-McRip-Effect-quot-!) when I get a chance.
I'll post pics and summarize when I get a chance here as well.
WHAT A RELIEF to be back on my Beloved Cherry MX. Those Topres are uninspiring switches.
Namaste.
-
I'm still with EK!!!!
Sorry. Too busy to take pics but my RealForce 87U is the same as the day I took it out of the box. Both two weeks ago and two years ago.
It just FELT lighter after two weeks.
And the whole Cherry MX spring thing being different is ALSO hokey science and due to manufacturing variance.
THIS is how Keyboard Science works.
I still disagree with EK.
You don't have measurement saying actuation force was 50g back then. Period. On the other hand, there are posts that your switches were indeed 45g back then, and also posts that they are 52g a few weeks ago. So, what you are saying doesn't make sense. Please stop saying the same thing over and over again.
If you disagree with me on Cherry MX springs, do your experiments and prove me wrong. I did mine. You didn't do anything except taking some pictures and putting on some nickles. Obviously you cannot tell if two springs are identical by just looking at them!
-
Yeah well, that was the FIRST time I used the RipOmeter so it makes sense my methodology 2 years ago wasn't as refined.
Anyway I'm right and you're wrong. Just ask all the people that have done Ghetto Reds and other spring swaps.
The springs are the same.
The Topre rubber domes don't age in 2 years.
Your red stickers don't do ****.
The anal retentive method of painting Cherry MX is a weird Korean past-time that I don't recommend for Americans and other sane people.
Why the digression? First the springs, second the sticker mods, third the lube business? I sense something.... but I cannot describe what it is. Anyway, please stay on the topic.
Why would you have to ask people? Would you believe them if they said otherwise? It is matter of facts not opinions.
I agree Topre rubber domes don't age in 2 years when not used heavily. Your Topre is no where near my daily-used-5-year-old HHKB. Even if a Topre board is very old, well-taken-care-of boards are very much usable. See hasu's examples.
I don't have problems you not recommending something I suggest. However I am a little wary that you have not tried it and thus you don't know what it is. Not knowing what it is and building up an opinion is very close in nature to forming a prejudice. I dare say you have prejudice issues. It can be seen in many of your theorems, so much generalization only observing little part of the whole picture...
-
By still, do you mean it measured 50g when you got it ? Mine measures 45g. But then my grammes must be the same as yours.
-
(Edit) under the assumption that my like-new HHKB is very similar to my old HHKB 5 years ago.
A dubious assumption, I fear.
and provide proper evidence.
I would challenge this.
You have two groups -- older versus newer -- each with a sample size of 1. That's not enough to calculate variance within each group, so you can't say that the difference between the groups is statistically significant.
There is no evidence that the difference in weights between these two keyboards is the result of stiffening over time, as opposed to (say) differences in manufacturing processes over the years that Topre has been manufacturing keyboards.
You provide no information about other environmental factors that may have an effect on results: temperature, humidity, etc.
This could be resolved by a longitudinal study: take a sample of keyboards and measure stiffening over time by taking measurements at certain intervals. However, the evidence presented here is inconclusive.
-
I am not saying my finding is statistically significant. Why are you guys so into statistics? The OP has only one observation and there cannot be any statistics(none at least in classical statistics, which is what I believe you are referring to) in the first place. I didn't even say one word about statistically significant finding! This documentation is one instance of rubber dome stiffening which is widely perceived but not documented phenomenon. The OP documents it under one assumption that is reasonable.
I feel my HHKB is noticeably stiff and it is almost as stiff as heavily used rubber dome, which is NOT how my HHKB felt when I first got it. The increased actuation force is so obvious to me, but I just didn't measure the actuation force when I got it. If you don't believe it, because you don't see any numbers.. then fine. If you don't believe it because there is no statistics, fine. Just take this as anecdotal evidence. Who would have resources, time, and money to produce the research you want? That is simply impossible for a consumer to do.
As far as the measurement goes, we only have one sample that is measured over time. Ripster's RF measured 45g when he got it two years ago and now it measures 52g. Ripster's board was said to be used about 6 months. My new realforce measures very close to the specified spec only off by +/- 5g so I suspect there is not much of cross-sectional variance within newly produced boards. Besides, Japanese QC is pretty decent.
Here is one post about my stance on the statistics I am using if I am using any. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=551320&viewfull=1#post551320)
Here is my summary and tentative conclusion before observing Hasu's measurements. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=555969&viewfull=1#post555969)
Here are measurements of 6 HHKB(two of them are modded and one of them is using rubber dome of Realforce variable)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45783&d=1332754187)
(source (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=556996&viewfull=1#post556996))
-
Please stop saying your RF measures the same. Your own measurement says otherwise. See here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=546243&viewfull=1#post546243). Your measurement increased by 7g. This is the tiebreaker.
Mine feels/ measures the same as the day I got it.
sent from brother Ripster's 87u
We obviously need tiebreaker here or this could go on for a while.
-
I think I did it wrong. It was my first TIME after all.
Other keys are definitely the same.
Don't make nickles and 1 yen coin lie, ripster. It was you who said gravity doesn't lie.
So, you are saying your other keys measure 45g?? You were saying 50g(52g) all along, numerous times! Your dithering method, which is later developed I suppose, always lowers measurement so the first time measurement argument also works against you.
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I agree my evidence cannot be generalized and it will probably never will because I don't have time and money to test multiple Topre boards over time. It is only indicative, which is what a consumer can do at most. Besides I didn't put it in any wiki, so you don't need to notify me. Also, it is funny that you take it out because it lacks evidence because most of your wiki entries are collection of anecdotal evidences.
5g differences may happen, but that is not what you said. You said they measure the same, and they don't measure the same! Also, three instances in three different keys are unlikely. The below are your own measurements.
Three keys support 50g.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44143&d=1331771689)
At 52g, the keys collapse.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44144&d=1331771692)
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Well, like I said luckily I have LOTS of RipOmeter results on rubber domes disputing your single observation. Rubber domes arrive stiff. then loosen up over time.
That's the beauty of using a WW tool that only depends on spare change and gravity.
Rubber domes loosening up over time? I tried to find the information in your collection of measurements, but I couldn't find it. Also in my experience, they become harder to press in one to two year period. I have not used any RD keyboard over three years except my HHKB, and it was because the keyboards got very stiff to use comfortably. (part of it would be increased friction though)
But still your statement that your RF measures the same is wrong. Please stop saying that unless you have new measurement that says otherwise. You are a bad scientist who cannot correctly read measurements.
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All of which are opposite to what you have been saying all along.
To summarize:
1. Topre actuation force increases over time. Instead of staying the same like you have been saying countless times.
2. Rubber dome stiffen over time in other boards. Instead of loosening up over time.
Hopefully, you will not say your Realforce measures the same again.
Thanks for checking back on the data though.
Tested my ESC key. 60g.
50g for A key that I modified. 40g for nonmodified ]} key
All 5g higher from...
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5697&viewfull=1&page=6&do=comments#post94820
And indeed some Rubber Dome measurement ACTIVATION FORCE (corroded/contaminated membrane contacts is also an issue here).
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?31228-Ripster-s-Guide-To-Peak-Force-Measurements-For-Rubberdome-Mech-Scissor-keyboards
Lol.
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I wonder if barrel/plunger wear or dried up lube could be making the key presses heavier?
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I wonder if barrel/plunger wear or dried up lube could be making the key presses heavier?
It is possible that wear of lube may have played some role in ripster's case. However, I doubt the lube alone can increase the actuation force by 5g.
My measurements here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=556996&viewfull=1#post556996) are taken after applying top of the line lube(RO-59 + Krytox GPL100), and it still show increased actuation force. The lube helped reduce actuation force, but the amount of reduced force was relatively little.
Also, ripster's current measurement is using dithering method which practically bypasses static friction. (He is vibrating the board slightly by tapping on his desk hence moving the slider slightly.)
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Finally ripster agrees.
I really hope Topre (or any other vendor) supplies the rubber domes. For 300 dollar keyboard, I think owners should be able to maintain worn and aging parts.
Besides, Topre's patent is long over due (capacitive related patent was filed in 1984 and a patent is good for 20 years after filing date) and I wonder why there isn't any clone products. Maybe it is not so straight forward to write firmware that detects capacitance.
However, for someone who is willing to shell out 300+ dollars, I think the rubber aging (hence change in typing feel over time and/or use) is surely a deterrent. Rubber aging problem is well accepted in Korean forums and I think it is primary reason why Topre owners are migrating to Cherry boards after some time and reason why new users are hesitant to make purchasing decision, putting the high price of the boards aside.
I wonder why there is so much doubt and nit picking in GH though. I am guessing it is either because of post purchase rationalization or lack of users who experienced the Topre board long enough.
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So, your saying Topre boards are crap, because the rubber doesnt age well ?
This is going to kill the topre legend if it is true.
Ill see for myself in a year or two I believe. But dashing out 300+ dollars for a board that only lasts a few years is ... expensive.
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So, your saying Topre boards are crap, because the rubber doesnt age well ?
This is going to kill the topre legend if it is true.
Ill see for myself in a year or two I believe. But dashing out 300+ dollars for a board that only lasts a few years is ... expensive.
I didn't say they are crap, but I said the typing experience noticeably change over time. I can say this for sure because I have been using same HHKB for 5 years and I begin to feel discomfort after two or three years of daily use. Most of discomfort went away after proper lubrication, but actuation force didn't come down to normal level. As seen in my measurements here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=556996&viewfull=1#post556996), some keys require 65g and they are far off the original specification of 45g. The problem here is that an owner can do NOTHING to mitigate this issue. (Some suggests punching hole on the rubber domes, but the mod is destructive hence very risky if anything goes wrong.)
I am suggesting Topre supply necessary parts so that Topre boards can be used for longer period of time.
I like Topre boards. As a matter of fact I own two Topre boards: HHKB and 87U. I just want my investments to last longer.
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Well some people use keys that have 65g actuation force. That seems to heavy for me, but it is regrettable to see that such expensive keyboards dont last all that long. If i do start feeling my domes getting harder, ill ripometer them.
I think my keyboard is a year old, and it measures about just right : 45g.
I dont think we can even hope to see replacement domes for our keyboards :(
Edit : I imagine you wore out your keycaps before starting to feel the rubber harden ? Or does it simply harden over time, and not by use ? Because from the measurements I see, the use of the keys seem to affect a lot the hardening.
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wait, so you're telling me if i keep using my board for a few years it will get better?!?! yesssss
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Well getting heavier isnt actually all that good IMO.
Plus, you may loose some tactile feedback or something like that. Im not really afraid of the increased actuation force, but im quite concernerd by the feel of the keys.
I'd like to have some feedback concerning these issues. People here are bound to have topre boards that have been under heavy use for a long number of years.
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Well getting heavier isnt actually all that good IMO.
Plus, you may loose some tactile feedback or something like that. Im not really afraid of the increased actuation force, but im quite concernerd by the feel of the keys.
I'd like to have some feedback concerning these issues. People here are bound to have topre boards that have been under heavy use for a long number of years.
In my case, tactile feedback increased as actuation force increased. I compared side by side like-new HHKB and five-year-old-daily-used HHKB and the older one had more tactile feedback. If you see the numbers in my measurements, on average difference is only 7g(see here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=557823&viewfull=1#post557823)). But the difference in feel was day and night to me. The peak force is only one facet of the whole picture and it isn't enough to describe the difference in feel. The new HHKB was much easier to press, had less tactile feedback, and more nimble. ripster didn't compare the old and new RF at the same time, so the comparison is only relying on memory in distance past, which is never a good idea when comparing difference in feel.
But the word is, after even more use and when rubber begin to lose elasticity it begins to feel mushy. However, it didn't happen to me using the board for five years. In contrast, my brand new variable RF could be called mushy compared to my five-year-old HHKB. In very old Topre boards, however, it seems to be the case; mushy and almost linear feel. Search for "linear" in this deskthority thread (http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/sony-news-keyboards-t1262.html).
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Don't get too excited about that agree thing. I'm saying it MIGHT be stiffening a tad, almost imperceptible, due to natural rubber hardening. I don't really think it's due to use. It's never used as hard as my other keyboards.
"Finally ripster agrees" rather means
Finally he is correctly reading his own measurements and he came to senses and correctly do subtraction 52-45=7 or 50-45=5 instead of 52-45=0 or 50-45=0!
It is rather a relief that a person was mistaken then corrected than excitement if you ask me.
The on-average measurement difference between the two HHKBs was only 7g. But they felt very different. I even swapped the rubber domes and the swapped rubber dome felt about the same, so the friction and other issues was relatively minor. We should acknowledge that the peak force describes only one side of multi-facet picture and never the whole picture.
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Well some people use keys that have 65g actuation force. That seems to heavy for me, but it is regrettable to see that such expensive keyboards dont last all that long. If i do start feeling my domes getting harder, ill ripometer them.
I think my keyboard is a year old, and it measures about just right : 45g.
I dont think we can even hope to see replacement domes for our keyboards :(
Edit : I imagine you wore out your keycaps before starting to feel the rubber harden ? Or does it simply harden over time, and not by use ? Because from the measurements I see, the use of the keys seem to affect a lot the hardening.
I too think Topre wouldn't supply rubber domes unless this rubber dome issue is affecting their sales. One can hope for it and ask for it though.
I do not have any experience of rubber dome stiffening when not used, since I only had one HHKB until recently. But seeing the ripster's case, it seems storing it and not using it does not prevent rubber aging.
Here are some photos of my key caps after 5 years. I type lightly and do not apply a lot of force when I type. I put some microfinishing film and UHMW tape on the keys for some grip and extra nub, but later took them out. The gold metal sticker seen on K key were bought from a group buy left over at KBDMania. Although photo seems to suggest it is a little different from the original font, it is 99% the same. The black edges you see are shadows created by the stickers.
The photos were originally posted at http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3510267
side by side
[ATTACH=CONFIG]50826[/ATTACH]
shot at the angle which reflected most light. Two photos are shot at the same angle.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]50827[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50830[/ATTACH]
crop of K key
[ATTACH=CONFIG]50828[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]50829[/ATTACH]
The key caps are one of many things I like about Topre boards. Some wear out PBT caps and make then shiny, but in my case it is in pretty decent shape despite 5 years of daily use. It is not good as new, but very much usable and not ugly. It is slightly more slippery compared to new caps because little texture wore off a bit. At one point, the caps were shinier than as seen in the photo, but after a good wash some of the matte feel came back.
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Oh yeah, the texture hold out pretty well.
At least we know that the caps are good...
People with "worn out" topre's should try asking for the rubber domes.
Even if you could get them for like 50€, that would be great. From Topre's point of view, it would kinda solve the issue... But then maybe the sliders themselves would start dying on you, which would mean replacing the whole board.
Edit : when you say five years of daily use, is that at home or at work ?
I find I tend to wear out keyboards and keycaps quite fast. Rubber domes usually start going within 3months, and keycaps start getting shiny withing a 1/2 months also, if they are ABS.
I also manage to shine the case around the arrow keys, because I use them a lot, and kinda mess around with it with my other unoccupied fingers.
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Yeah, it is weird that the spacebar isnt any more worn than that. Because it is ABS, and therefore does wear out pretty fast. I can see mine is starting to shine already, after only a month.
And I only use it at home.
When does the aging start to be noticeable ? after 2 years ?
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Yeah but people are saying that the feel then becomes linear. Which isnt good at all for a keyboard that costs 300$.
and 5g is a noticeable difference for fingers.
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MM is referring to this post on vintage topres that limmy linked:
http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/sony-news-keyboards-t1262.html
however, these are talking about vintage topre switches of indeterminate design. were they always linear? was it really age and usage that turned them from tactile to linear? WE MAY NEVER KNOW. in the same post, limmy feels that aging has made his topres more tactile.
so who knows? probably the only thing we do know is that topre switches continue working despite heavy aging lol
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Yeah, but as said before, continue working despite heavy aging just isnt good enough for a 300$ keyboard. My Rubber dome keyboards that cost like 20$ still continue working after heavy aging. Not well, but they still work.
Airline use and banking use for a keyboard ? I wouldnt qualify that as heavy use. Not even close to it. Type in a few numbers, and thats all. Nope, that not even close to heavy use.
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People with "worn out" topre's should try asking for the rubber domes.
Even if you could get them for like 50€, that would be great. From Topre's point of view, it would kinda solve the issue... But then maybe the sliders themselves would start dying on you, which would mean replacing the whole board.
Edit : when you say five years of daily use, is that at home or at work ?
I find I tend to wear out keyboards and keycaps quite fast. Rubber domes usually start going within 3months, and keycaps start getting shiny withing a 1/2 months also, if they are ABS.
I also manage to shine the case around the arrow keys, because I use them a lot, and kinda mess around with it with my other unoccupied fingers.
Yes, it would be great to have the rubber dome available. People have asked but didn't get favorable answer from Topre. I heard that they replace the rubber sheet within warranty period if something is wrong with the sheet.
First two years I used at home. And last three years I used it at work. I do not type that much.
Yeah, it is weird that the spacebar isnt any more worn than that. Because it is ABS, and therefore does wear out pretty fast. I can see mine is starting to shine already, after only a month.
And I only use it at home.
When does the aging start to be noticeable ? after 2 years ?
Lubricant related issues began to bother me after 2 year. The capslock sized control key of HHKB wasn't responding very well if I press the key on the edges. After lubrication I didn't feel much discomfort besides increased actuation force. Later I purchased like-new HHKB and compare it side by side, and I noticed the difference right away. That is when I tried to measure the peak force and post the OP.
You probably wouldn't notice the change in feel if you use it daily. It is like a frog in heated water. You get accustomed to the gradual change and do not notice the change until the change goes over critical threshold.
so who knows? probably the only thing we do know is that topre switches continue working despite heavy aging lol
They continue to work, but I would expect more from a $300 keyboard. I would expect them to have consistent feel over time or at least an owner should be able to do maintenance. Cheap rubber domes certainly work for many years but the reason they are not preferred is that they are not durable and the performance is inconsistent over time. In this regard, I hear Cherry switches are far more consistent, although I don't really prefer the force profile of the Cherry MX switches.
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the one thing you can't expect from a 300$ keyboard is for it to defy the laws of physics. you're buying a product with rubber in it, rubber that undergoes a large number of deformations in its lifetime, in addition to natural aging effects. a keyboard with rubber in it is going to feel different after you've bashed on it a few million times than when it's first manufactured. sure, it would be nice if there were a repair/refreshing service, but honestly for the cost of sending it back to japan to be rebuilt, you can probably just buy a new one.
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Unscrew couple dozens of screws, you can replace the rubber dome yourself. No need to send back.
Yes, the law of physics still applies to everything. Mercedes wears out just as much as Ford. I think one of the reasons Mercedes is able to ask premium is their durability and reliability over time. When we pay premium, we expect delayed aging as much as possible and if that is not possible spare parts.
It is a pity that someone (r******) was not willing to admit the rubber ages for quite some time even though his own measurement said they have.
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actually (and note before you queue up your image macros, ripster, that this is nothing personal) but the hooke's law approximation of elasticity is probably the worst analogy you could come up with, because that's exactly what we're pointing out is broken in the real world. what i am saying is specifically that one can't say "oh, this rubber dome is exactly this elastic when you cast it in this shape from the date it's manufactured to the end of time". in reality, we can approximate its behavior as a simple linearly describable spring only for small slices of time, both in terms of its age and in terms of its deformation.
re: luxury items. it's actually typical for luxury items to be manufactured so that they are higher performance but have a shorter lifetime (which is typically the trade-off for high performance in the engineering world). the standard car example of this is ferrari products, which you can actually price in the double-digits per mile driven. now, i agree that this is a little odd to say about topre domes, because one of their advertising points is the switch longevity, but tbf they are demonstrating exactly what they claim -- much better uniformity and precision out of the gate, and smaller variation 5-10 years into their usable lifetime _than standard rubber domes_
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Mechnazims.
Unfortunate typo.
Technically, rubber dome springs and metal springs are both mechanical. It's just that different materials are used for the spring. It does seem that metal would prove to be a more resilient and reliable product over a long period of time.
http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/7/3/017
Does anyone have a really old Topre to compare? Maybe 8-10+ years old?
Edit: I assumed you weren't literally referring to the typo. If you were then please disregard. I get the feeling you already have.
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Technically, rubber dome springs and metal springs are both mechanical.
Your definition reaches too far, because it goes outside what people normally mean when they say "mechanical".
If you want to stretch the definition to an extreme, every keyboard is mechanical because every keyboard contains some kind of mechanism by which it registers keystrokes. But now you see the problem? If every keyboard is mechanical, then isn't the word "mechanical" redundant? Shouldn't we then just say "keyboard".
Language doesn't exist in some realm of Platonian idealised forms. Words have meaning only for those that use them to exchange meaning among each other. And when we say "mechanical" we don't mean rubber dome. Defining the word differently according to your own criteria isn't going to change that.
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Your definition reaches too far, because it goes outside what people normally mean when they say "mechanical".
If you want to stretch the definition to an extreme, every keyboard is mechanical because every keyboard contains some kind of mechanism by which it registers keystrokes. But now you see the problem? If every keyboard is mechanical, then isn't the word "mechanical" redundant? Shouldn't we then just say "keyboard".
Language doesn't exist in some realm of Platonian idealised forms. Words have meaning only for those that use them to exchange meaning among each other. And when we say "mechanical" we don't mean rubber dome. Defining the word differently according to your own criteria isn't going to change that.
Jesus, we've gone from inferential statistics to linguistic relativity, if we carry on like this we'll all get to make use of our undergrad.
In other news, I bought a 3 month old HHKB; it feels "meh."
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In other news, I bought a 3 month old HHKB; it feels "meh."
Is that "meh" in imperial or metric?
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It's a metric "meh"; always metric.
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Urbanus, I'm not putting my own "twist" on the definition of mechanical. RDs, and most keyboards, fall neatly under the definition of mechanical. I just find it fascinating that most people adamantly deny that RDs are mechanical, but they accept Topres as mechanical. Shouldn't most RDs just be labeled as a "cheap" or undesirable subset of mechanicals? I guess it's hard to get people to accept that after a whole "mech keyboard" industry has been built on the very selective definition that is widely accepted (here.)
OT - does anyone have an old Topre to examine for decay? It would be neat to see what they are like at the ten year mark.
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Come on Rip! Although it was a serious observation I was expecting a little banter. I'll leave it alone since it can be a sensitive issue.
My next purchase will definitely be a Topre so I can see what all the fuss is about. I'll Ripometer for sure.
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RDs, and most keyboards, fall neatly under the definition of mechanical.
Which ones don't?
Given that rubber dome keyboards basically involve mashing two sheets of rubber together -- and we classify that as "mechanical" now, apparently -- I thought I'd do a bit of research. (Keyboard science! Woo!) So I did a Google image search for "rubber machine" to see what I could find. I made sure the wife wasn't looking first. I worry about Google image searches -- especially those involving words such as "rubber".
The results were mostly off-topic (like this post, actually). Apparently they have thousands of different types of machine for making rubber products. Machines that are made out of rubber are in shorter supply it seems.
One image was most intriguing: a "rubber machine" being a woman (I am given to understand from the high heels, but maybe that's a false assumption) wearing a rubber suit with tubes coming out all over the place. One large rubber tube emerged from the posterior of the suit, which for a costume that I suppose was intended to be fantastic/futuristic I found to be both pragmatic and amusing at the same time.
Anyway, in relaying all this information to you I fear that I may not have convinced you of much; but at least then I would have returned the favour!
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any device that converts a mechanical impulse (keypress) to an electrical impulse (electrical switch) is going to be an (electro-)mechanical device, just by definition. as ripster said, we use the phrase "mechanical keyboard" to refer to such devices that do not require the key to bottom out for the switch to actuate.
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I Ripometered my new HHKB Pro 2:
Left Alt 55g (11 nickels)
Right Alt 50g (10 nickels)
Right bracket 45g (9 nickels)
This a very nice rubber dome keyboard and surprisingly quiet if you don't bottom out hard. I have a hard time understanding what makes them cost $300.00 though.
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See. It's a bit high even out of the factory.
I think Limmy's theory needs more experimentation before it is Wiki worthy.
My RustOmeter results took a full year.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?31197-Ripster-s-Testing-Of-Switch-Corrosion-Resistance-The-RipOruster!
More data is always welcome!
If you followed this thread carefully(which I doubt), you would have known there were more than couple of HHKBs that have higher actuation force out of factory. (I am not sure if this finding is general though.)
See my comments on
Fossala's measurements (see here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=557001&viewfull=1#post557001))
Aranair's measurements (see here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27474-Topre-rubber-dome-stiffening&p=552692&viewfull=1#post552692))
However, my RF measures pretty close to the original specification, same as your RF two years ago. We know your RF measures 5g more (may be more) compared to the measurements done two years ago.
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I follow your every post Limmy!
What's happening with the Gold Springs?
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?28350-Extra-Curly-Fries-Type-62
Please stay on topic. Why do you have to go off topic? How hard is to stay on topic? Because of your off-topic posts and repetitive meaningless posts, this thread is becoming way longer than it is supposed to be.
If you want to discuss Cherry MX springs with me, you can leave your comments here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards&p=592549&viewfull=1#post592549). I am going to get my hands on some of 55g, 62g max-force custom springs so once I get them I will generate some measurements and do a comparison for ya. Obviously, no one denied Hooke's law you love. It is all about the spring coefficient and the initial load inside the switch. I don't know why you say what you say about the Hooke's law and Korean springs.
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Whoa, what? Resurrecting a thread here. I recently got an FC660C. I found this thread after I got it, and I've noticed that there is barely any talk on the subject of Topre uniformity and aging. Considering that these boards cost on average above $200, I think this is very strange. I noticed pretty much immediately that the keys on my board did not have uniform weights, so I took measurements. Here are links to them:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h171fptww5rq9nb/FC660C%20key%20weights.xlsx
https://mega.co.nz/#!BRZVFaLQ!JbjqClcwQ3l9J9_yU1nMCUSldf9YT0emf16uNR2Nt_g
There is (or rather was, about 20 days ago when I got the thing) a 20g difference between the heaviest and lightest keys. That's pretty damn noticeable. The right side of the keyboard is also, on the whole, lighter than the left. The lighter keys are also, as one might expect, less tactile than the heavier keys. This is especially annoying with the "I" key. It is the lightest of the letter keys, and even though it's about the same as some of the ones around it, I can still feel a difference. It definitely has the softest bump of all the keys, even softer than the lighter Insert key. It's sometimes like I'm typing on browns, and then all of a sudden I hit a red. It's a little distracting. To be honest, even though I love the layout of the board, and the feel of Topre on the whole (both the lighter and heavier switches) the uniformity is pretty damn pathetic. The left and right sheets of cups under the letters are clearly from different batches that did not come out the same, and the modifier keys are kind of all over the place. I also measured my ducky, and everything came out within 5g, between 42.5g and 47.5g. I also measured a Lenovo rubber dome keyboard at work, and while the weight tolerance was looser with a 10g difference, it was still better than my FC660C. And I guarantee that board didn't cost $190. I know that all the keys fall withing the +-15g specification for Topre switches, but still, come on. There is a 20g difference between them, and the average is nowhere near 45g.
So anyway, I plan to measure my FC660C again in a months time to see if the switches have loosened up. I think they have, but I might just be getting more used to them. It would be nice if other people measured their boards too, so we can get more data on this.
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Might help if you could explain how you measured the force so that other people could do the same.
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Good old Ripometer. Take a bunch of nickles and pennies, stack them on the keys. You might have to prop the board up at different angles to keep the coins level.
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And, using Ripster's method, you were able to precisely measure all keys on various boards to 0.5 grams?
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What do you want me to say? I used pennies and nickles. Pennies weigh 2.5, nickels weigh 5. Is it accurate withing .5g? No, but I would say that it is probably accurate to 2.5. I can't make sure that the coins were pressing down exactly the same way on each key (F and J especially), but I measured each key multiple times and they always actuated within a penny.
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Not doubting you... Just that I have a FC660C, and I really don't feel the differences that you do. I'm in Israel, so I can't do the penny and nickel thing, but perhaps, when I have the time, I'll try some Israeli coins, although I don't know their weights, so it would only be a general comparison.
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You could use shekels and, if you have them, agora.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_new_shekel
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There are 10 and 50 agarot coins, but they are too large to fit on individual keycaps. However, the problem is the weight of Israel coins. I just managed to balance 10, 1 shekel coins (= 13/16") on a key, and it didn't actuate, and adding any more is really a very difficult balancing act.
*** EDITED ***
As you can see on the chart that contains the weights of the Israeli coins, there is no available Israeli coin that weighs less than 4 g (Last column shows those coins that are "Current"). So, actuation force would be very approximate. But, when I have some time, I will check out the FC660C and let you know what I find.
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Awesome, thanks. I think it would be easier for you than it was for me, since the coins you are using are smaller than nickles, and I usually had to stack 10 or more nickels. Just make sure nothing is touching the sides of the other keys, because that will throw the measurements off.
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Why not try the method webwit uses (http://webwit.nl/input/witometer/)?
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I will definitely try to do more precise measurements next time, but I don't have an electronic scale right now.
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I'm not really sold on this idea of the rubber dome stiffening solely because of first-hand experience with a few rubber dome keyboards that are 10-15 years old.
If anything, the membrane switches have softened up over the years, particularly the frequently used keys such as 'A'. The 'A' key is much softer on this old IBM rubber dome than the ` key.
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Update on my 660C.
I RMAed it with EK, and got a new one back. Right off the bat, there is a huge difference between this one and the last one. The left side of the keyboard is now pretty much the same as the right in terms of weight, and they both feel closer to 45g all around. The arrow keys feel lighter (like most people say they do). Overall, it just feels lighter and more uniform. A and J feel a bit lighter than the other keys around them, but they don’t feel as different as the I on the last board. I will do another nickel test in 2 weeks (gives it time to break in, and also I don’t have time right now), but this board already feels completely different. I’m pretty sure the last board was basically a 55+g board on one side. My left hand was getting tired much faster than my right, which doesn’t seem to be happening anymore. The conclusions I am drawing from this and my conversations with other people are that 1: Topre just doesn’t have anywhere near the control over the weight of their switches that Cherry does, and 2: The last board was still probably a fluke in how poorly weighted it was.
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It's probably a fluke/isolated incident. If it wasn't, we'd be hearing about it all over the forum from many users.
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Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder? In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.
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Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder? In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.
Rubber becomes stiffer when warmer. Maybe your fingers are stiffer when colder :P
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Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder? In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.
Rubber becomes stiffer when warmer. Maybe your fingers are stiffer when colder :P
I dont think rubber works that way.
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Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder? In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.
Rubber becomes stiffer when warmer. Maybe your fingers are stiffer when colder :P
I dont think rubber works that way.
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/stiffness-of-rubber/contraction2.php
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Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder? In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.
Rubber becomes stiffer when warmer. Maybe your fingers are stiffer when colder :P
I dont think rubber works that way.
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/stiffness-of-rubber/contraction2.php
Cool i did not know that :)
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Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder? In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.
I know my hands are noticeably stiffer in the cold. My hands tend to get cold first, so as long as I keep them warm I am fine. However when I have cold hands, my typing speed and accuracy drops noticeably.
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Does anyone know if the rubber domes are replaceable at all? If so, who sells them?
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Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder? In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.
Rubber becomes stiffer when warmer. Maybe your fingers are stiffer when colder :P
I dont think rubber works that way.
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/stiffness-of-rubber/contraction2.php
Except it is not rubber.
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Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder? In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.
Rubber becomes stiffer when warmer. Maybe your fingers are stiffer when colder :P
I dont think rubber works that way.
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/stiffness-of-rubber/contraction2.php
Except it is not rubber.
You dare doubt the Oneness of the Cup Rubber?!? :eek:
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Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder? In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.
Rubber becomes stiffer when warmer. Maybe your fingers are stiffer when colder :P
I dont think rubber works that way.
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/stiffness-of-rubber/contraction2.php
Except it is not rubber.
You dare doubt the Oneness of the Cup Rubber?!? :eek:
You dont question the Cup Rubber God
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After reading some things from earlier, all I can say is thank god for banning Ripster. Racist, anal about people questioning him, downright stubborn as a smurf.
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After reading some things from earlier, all I can say is thank god for banning Ripster. Racist, anal about people questioning him, downright stubborn as a smurf.
Ripster was racist?(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/042.gif)
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Geekhack is now 99% Asian or are weeaboos and/or keyaboos.
Yeah well, that was the FIRST time I used the RipOmeter so it makes sense my methodology 2 years ago wasn't as refined.
Anyway I'm right and you're wrong. Just ask all the people that have done Ghetto Reds and other spring swaps.
Yeah.
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Geekhack is now 99% Asian or are weeaboos and/or keyaboos.
Yeah well, that was the FIRST time I used the RipOmeter so it makes sense my methodology 2 years ago wasn't as refined.
Anyway I'm right and you're wrong. Just ask all the people that have done Ghetto Reds and other spring swaps.
Yeah.
Neither of those sound racist.
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Every time someone references him in a post, a CC dies somewhere.
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Every time someone references him in a post, a CC dies somewhere.
But that just gives people an excuse to charge even more ridiculous and exorbitant prices for them.
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Every time someone references him in a post, a CC dies somewhere.
But that just gives people an excuse to charge even more ridiculous and exorbitant prices for them.
Sadly it seems that people do not need an excuse to charge more.