geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: tp4tissue on Thu, 15 March 2012, 23:12:10
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Had a serious sit-down with mx-brown on a das today, after a huge argument with my friend who "adores" the browns..
The sensation of the little bump of the mx-brown is like feeling for a single grain of sand on a smooth table.... Tactile ?? GTFO !!!!
I conclude, Blue is the best mx-switch. My friend can go to hell,, actually he's not even my friend anymore. Number deleted....
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mx brown, the most overrated switch of all.
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Gah. How am I supposed to choose via the internets???
Browns seem to be favorites!
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You can have an idea on the internet but you can't be certain.
I agree that browns are way less tactile than blues, but bowns feel smoother.
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I guess TS is too used to the double-action feel of blues.
Try till you meet the Red switch lovers.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k221/undarken/random/CLOUDOFBOOBS.jpg)
Personally, I love Red and Brown but hate blues even though I like buckling springs.
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I've only tried Browns and I like them. They sucked and my typing speed was decreased until I could get used to not bottoming out... the extra travel = slow typing.
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I've only tried Browns and I like them. They sucked and my typing speed was decreased until I could get used to not bottoming out... the extra travel = slow typing.
How fast do you type,, ?????????/
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I've only tried Browns and I like them. They sucked and my typing speed was decreased until I could get used to not bottoming out... the extra travel = slow typing.
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... Browns are awesome for typing like seriously :P The tactile bump is just about right for a light typer imo.
(Btw, is there really increased travel if you don't bottom out? I find that I'm moving about the same as on my blues previously if you ask me.)
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Blues are way overrated! I think people just get them so other people have to hear the type and are like "why your keyboard so loud?" to which old blue says "well actually it's a mechanical keyboard!"
I have an ******* like this @ work.
Oh and they sound like crackling plastic! Hate hate hate
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There's no way anyone will ever convince me that Brown's are more tactile than Blues. No way whatsoever. Unless I were to type ever so slowly and gently, I'd never even notice the slight tactile bump with Browns. At full speed they feel linear, at least compared to Blues, in my opinion.
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They are not more tactile than blues but the tactile is more than sufficient for me. I think it really depends on whether you are a heavy typer or light typer..
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There's no way anyone will ever convince me that Brown's are more tactile than Blues. No way whatsoever. Unless I were to type ever so slowly and gently, I'd never even notice the slight tactile bump with Browns. At full speed they feel linear, at least compared to Blues, in my opinion.
This is so true.
The bump is here, but good luck feeling it.
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Buckling springs and topre are the best 2 switch types. I find cherry a bit cheap feeling.
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I will agree that blues feel pretty good, but that typing on egg shell noise gets REALLY annoying during long typing sessions. Kind of like eating sweets, in small amounts they are great, but if you eat them all day, they make you sick. The mx brown doesn't feel tactile when you type quickly compared to blues, but when you type on reds you definitely notice how tactile browns are in comparison.
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When I type fast on brown (90wpm+) I cannot really feel the bump.
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They are not more tactile than blues but the tactile is more than sufficient for me. I think it really depends on whether you are a heavy typer or light typer..
light typers are slow typers... I don't mash on my keyboard, but even with the greatest care, i bottom out..
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I will agree that blues feel pretty good, but that typing on egg shell noise gets REALLY annoying during long typing sessions. Kind of like eating sweets, in small amounts they are great, but if you eat them all day, they make you sick. The mx brown doesn't feel tactile when you type quickly compared to blues, but when you type on reds you definitely notice how tactile browns are in comparison.
that's like saying a gtr is closer to a ferrari than a civic,,, YEA,, it's closer,, but it's no damn ferrari... Blue = Ferrari (tactile-ness)
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I challenged someone before on this: I want to see someone type 90-100wpm on browns without bottoming out.
Can't be done!!!!! Bottoming out is probably the biggest myth around geekhack.
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We have voted for that before. Browns have a little more votes than blues and buckling springs.
Most people who like browns are low profile and do not waste time to argue with outspoken blue users. But they do vote anyway.
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We have voted for that before. Browns have a little more votes than blues and buckling springs.
Most people who like browns are low profile and do not waste time to argue with outspoken blue users. But they do vote anyway.
Democracy?? and look what it's doing to America.... Fvcking us that's what..
Blue FTW..
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Without bottoming out once ?
I know that when I type at "normal speed" (as in 60wpm) i dont bottom out that much on my blues (lets say 60% of total strokes bottom out).
When i try pushing my WPM to maximum (75) I do bottom out more than when typing normally.
So people are saying browns are actually very linear. So the main difference between browns and red is the actuation force ?
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I bought MX brown for my first board. Everybody was recommending. That was a mistake.
Blues all the way.
mx brown, the most overrated switch of all.
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About to get a KBC Poker with browns.
Coming from buckling springs and MX blues, I'm worried I'll be disappointed.
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Shouting "BLUES FTW BROWNS SUCK" isn't going to get you anywhere.
It's common sense that blues are louder and more tactile than browns. It's simply the design of the switch. Browns are still tactile, but not AS tactile.
Browns have their place, and so do blues. It comes down to preference and what you do with your keyboard. I prefer browns over blues, but I'm also an avid RTS gamer.
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My #1 reason for doing browns vs blues is that awful noise from the blues. I thought I had decided on a Leopold with browns, but maybe I'll reconsider the Unicomp...
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As an avid Minecraft gamer, what switch would I prefer?
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As an avid Minecraft gamer, what switch would I prefer?
The one YOU like the most. ;)
It's like wine. There is science and facts to backup what's in a bottle of some top dollar bottles but it still comes down to personal taste.
There are switch diagrams galore and there is reasoning behind each setup but it still comes down to personal taste.
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Browns? Blues? Ergoclears FTW! Absolute great tactility, and without that sound of shaking a bag of legos! Feel great to type on. Much less hysteresis than Blues. But still not as good for typing as Buckling Springs. For gaming I would prefer Reds or Blacks.
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Ultimate argument against blues: I don't like the clicking *at all*. Can't argue with that, can you?
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Until now I only had the chance to type on blacks and browns. I like the browns more than the blacks. But my next keyboard will have the blues because I heard that they are great for typing.
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Ultimate argument against blues: I don't like the clicking *at all*. Can't argue with that, can you?
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If you don't mind the click, then go for buckling spring. If you type on blues with headphones on you will notice, that they aren't as tactile as you'd think.
I have to admit, I really dislike browns. Ergoclears really are worth the money and time you spend on them.
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There are no keyboards available with ergoclears... so do you retrofit them?
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Had a serious sit-down with mx-brown on a das today, after a huge argument with my friend who "adores" the browns..
The sensation of the little bump of the mx-brown is like feeling for a single grain of sand on a smooth table.... Tactile ?? GTFO !!!!
I conclude, Blue is the best mx-switch. My friend can go to hell,, actually he's not even my friend anymore. Number deleted....
I had a post about this in the past week in another thread.
I completely agree - if you sit down and play with a brown switch seeking to comment on its "tactility" you will come away with the impression that it's just a gritty spot in the action of the switch.
If, however, you actuate four switches at a time (one per finger) you can clearly feel it's a bump and not grit. Furthermore, if you A/B compare against a linear switch (red or black) it will be a night-and-day difference despite the fact that you do not perceive the brown as "poppy" and "tactile". I find that you don't necessarily think of the brown as tactile unless you switch to a linear board.
So, if you want to be amused by click sounds (like buckling springs on MX blues) then a brown won't satisfy you. If you want tactile feedback that will still train your muscle memory without annoying your neighbours, then I think the brown may be a little more brilliant than many people think after a short test drive.
Browns aren't overtly tactile like Realforce 55g or buckling springs, but they certainly aren't linear like reds or blacks either. It's easy to tell the difference, especially after allowing an appropriate learning interval. I usually consider a week of use at work to be just about right to truly form an impression of a new switch.
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When I type fast on brown (90wpm+) I cannot really feel the bump.
But you would definitely feel the lack of bump if you switched to a black or red board and resumed typing...
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There are no keyboards available with ergoclears... so do you retrofit them?
yup, buy a keyboard you like with browns, blues or reds (to make things easy PCB Mounted) and buy a cheap board with Clears. Then 1 or 2 hours of work, and you have the best Cherry switches ever. On Plate mounted boards it's more time consuming, but still doable and definitely worth it.
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I had a post about this in the past week in another thread.
I completely agree - if you sit down and play with a brown switch seeking to comment on its "tactility" you will come away with the impression that it's just a gritty spot in the action of the switch.
If, however, you actuate four switches at a time (one per finger) you can clearly feel it's a bump and not grit. Furthermore, if you A/B compare against a linear switch (red or black) it will be a night-and-day difference despite the fact that you do not perceive the brown as "poppy" and "tactile". I find that you don't necessarily think of the brown as tactile unless you switch to a linear board.
So, if you want to be amused by click sounds (like buckling springs on MX blues) then a brown won't satisfy you. If you want tactile feedback that will still train your muscle memory without annoying your neighbours, then I think the brown may be a little more brilliant than many people think after a short test drive.
Browns aren't overtly tactile like Realforce 55g or buckling springs, but they certainly aren't linear like reds or blacks either. It's easy to tell the difference, especially after allowing an appropriate learning interval. I usually consider a week of use at work to be just about right to truly form an impression of a new switch.
Great post, I think it might help me decide on my first mechanical keyboard (Only tried blue/red/black).
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yup, buy a keyboard you like with browns, blues or reds (to make things easy PCB Mounted) and buy a cheap board with Clears. Then 1 or 2 hours of work, and you have the best Cherry switches ever. On Plate mounted boards it's more time consuming, but still doable and definitely worth it.
Sorry for double post, but what is the difference between ergo clears and brown switches? I have tried neither.
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Sorry for double post, but what is the difference between ergo clears and brown switches? I have tried neither.
Well, the ergoclears are basically the stems of Cherry MX Clears, combined with the light springs of Blues/Reds/Browns. So they have a much stronger tactile bump (and it's really more of a bump than the razor sharp actuation point of Buckling Springs) than ordinary browns. This is a Mod of Cherry switches you have to do on your own. There are no Ergoclears which can be readily bought.
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Well, the ergoclears are basically the stems of Cherry MX Clears, combined with the light springs of Blues/Reds/Browns. So they have a much stronger tactile bump (and it's really more of a bump than the razor sharp actuation point of Buckling Springs) than ordinary browns. This is a Mod of Cherry switches you have to do on your own. There are no Ergoclears which can be readily bought.
Which mechanical keyboard do you suggest me search for(hopefully, a cheap one) that will have clears? I'd like to try these someday!
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Well, that depends on your location. AFAIK one of the cheapest ones with Clears is the G80-3000 LQC**. Available in Germany for around 50€. But with international shipping and such maybe you might want to look for a Leopold with Clears. (But I really don't know much about Leopolds. They aren't available here.)
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I just posted in a thread, hoping the owner sees it, and I was hoping to get one with a student discount. :)
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The one YOU like the most. ;)
It's like wine. There is science and facts to backup what's in a bottle of some top dollar bottles but it still comes down to personal taste.
There are switch diagrams galore and there is reasoning behind each setup but it still comes down to personal taste.
Yes but wine has no purpose,,, it's an acquired taste,, no one likes the taste of alcohol,, the point of alcohol is to get drunk,, thus wine = fail, because, absolute or svedka gets you drunk much FASTER, and can be diluted.....
Mx blue on the other hand HAS a purpose,,, it helps you type faster.
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Shouting "BLUES FTW BROWNS SUCK" isn't going to get you anywhere.
It's common sense that blues are louder and more tactile than browns. It's simply the design of the switch. Browns are still tactile, but not AS tactile.
Browns have their place, and so do blues. It comes down to preference and what you do with your keyboard. I prefer browns over blues, but I'm also an avid RTS gamer.
Yea browns have their place, In a land fill,, Not on any keyboards.
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About to get a KBC Poker with browns.
Coming from buckling springs and MX blues, I'm worried I'll be disappointed.
You will be....
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Until now I only had the chance to type on blacks and browns. I like the browns more than the blacks. But my next keyboard will have the blues because I heard that they are great for typing.
correction,, they're the Best for typing.
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But you would definitely feel the lack of bump if you switched to a black or red board and resumed typing...
very true, i am not arguing that there's absolutely no difference.. the trouble is you're comparing a whisper (black/red) to a 2km/h gust of wind (brown)..Yea it's louder and more tactile,, but seriouly....
There is such thing as sensation threshold... and brown is just too low to overcome the bombardment of stimuli from everywhere else.
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My two cents: if you want tactile, get a Model M. Nothing compares. If you want to quiet it down a tad, do a grease or "floss" mod. I've done both.
My first MX board was a Rosewill with browns. I was trying to find something a little quieter than the buckling-spring for use at home. I was put-off by the "gritty" feel at first, but after a week or two the grit mostly went away and I came to like them. I can type very fast on them, though with more errors than on a Model M. Now I have keyboards with every type of MX switch (except for blacks). For typing, browns have the lightest feel of them all. That little "relief" that you get when it passes the little bump make the keys feel more comfortable than a board with reds, even though they both use the same spring. They are also pretty decent for gaming, but not the best. I just got a WASD V1 with reds and o-rings. I really like this combo too. The reduced travel makes the key lighter, since it doesn't bottom out as far. It's pretty good for typing and great for gaming. It has become my main home keyboard...at least until I get bored with it.
I have a Poker and a Filco with blues. I never use them. They are a bit more tactile than the browns, yes, but the click is annoyingly high-pitched and "fake". The click happens at a seemingly random time after the key registers, depending which key I press. As a long-time Model M user, this trips me up for some reason. Both of these keyboards will be converted to ergo-clears. I'm typing on an ergo-clear keyboard right now and it's awesome. Best typing experience for me on a Cherry MX switch.
This will be a very personal choice, so good luck!
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that's like saying a gtr is closer to a ferrari than a civic,,, YEA,, it's closer,, but it's no damn ferrari... Blue = Ferrari (tactile-ness)
Sorry, but you are wrong about that. 55g Topre = Ferrari. The 55g Topre is VERY tactile, and has a very low pitch noise that never gets annoying. Keeping with your analogy of cars and how tactile various keyswitches are - blues would be a GTR with a loud ass "hey look at me" ricerocket exhaust and some other performance enhancing mods, browns would be a stock GTR, and reds would be a stock Civic LOL. I'm not arguing that Blues are a great switch, but for some people like me, that high pitch noise REALLY starts to get annoying if you have to do a lot of typing. The browns aren't quite as nice, but you don't have to deal with the annoying noise, and it still feels good to type on.
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My two cents: if you want tactile, get a Model M. Nothing compares. If you want to quiet it down a tad, do a grease or "floss" mod. I've done both.
I challenge you to type on a 55g Topre and still say that. If you like heavy switches with great tactility, but also like quiet switches, you will love the 55g. I would actually say that to me the 55g feels more tactile than my unicomp with buckling springs. The 45g however, I wouldn't recommend, I'm still trying to get used to it. You wouldn't think that only 10g would make such a huge difference, but it really is night and day.
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Has anyone gone from blues-> browns and acutally been happy with the switch? Currently on blues, but about to snag another board, was thinking browns.
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Has anyone gone from blues-> browns and acutally been happy with the switch? Currently on blues, but about to snag another board, was thinking browns.
I've had both plus reds and clears. Love browns. I don't like the high pitched whine that blues give off when they click. THey are ok to type on but not my best.
I prefer ergo clears.
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I challenge you to type on a 55g Topre and still say that. If you like heavy switches with great tactility, but also like quiet switches, you will love the 55g. I would actually say that to me the 55g feels more tactile than my unicomp with buckling springs. The 45g however, I wouldn't recommend, I'm still trying to get used to it. You wouldn't think that only 10g would make such a huge difference, but it really is night and day.
I have not been able to stomach the cost of a RealForce, so i can't really respond to that. Having tried so many keyboards now, I always find my old Model M the easiest and most comfortable to type on. However, that may just be due to the fact that I have been using it for so many years. Having said that, I do notice that it takes more effort to type on it than my other boards. When typing from muscle memory (i'm a programmer), I can really crank on it.
At this point, I'm just having fun switching things up once in a while.
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I'm having such a hard time deciding, without ever trying browns (just black/red/blue).
I would like to have one keyboard, and not purchase any. I actually liked the click the blues gave off on the BKU, that I tried at Frys, and I was wondering if it would get annoying after weeks/months/years of use. I'd like to someday buy an ipad or laptop and use a TKL keyboard with them (even though I REALLY like scissor switches). I can imagine late night gaming or bringing my keyboard to class/library and end up annoying everyone within 20ft of my blue switches.
No idea what to do, I wish I could try a brown :|
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Brown is very similar to reds when you are typing fast. Theres just a small rough feeling in the keypress with the browns.
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Agreed, reds and browns are similar in many fashions.
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In that case, I don't need to try browns. My first keyboard will be a blue. Thanks.
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They're different, but they are similar.
Check the wiki for what I mean.
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I have not been able to stomach the cost of a RealForce, so i can't really respond to that. Having tried so many keyboards now, I always find my old Model M the easiest and most comfortable to type on. However, that may just be due to the fact that I have been using it for so many years. Having said that, I do notice that it takes more effort to type on it than my other boards. When typing from muscle memory (i'm a programmer), I can really crank on it.
At this point, I'm just having fun switching things up once in a while.
I agree, the cost really is very high. However, if you buy one, you will wonder why you ever spent so much money trying out other keyboards. I find more enjoyment in my 55g than I do on my mx blue, brown, and unicomp put together.
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In that case, I don't need to try browns. My first keyboard will be a blue. Thanks.
The blue really is a good choice if you don't mind the noise. Some people never get annoyed by the noise, and actually find it quite enjoyable. I gave my blue board to my buddy as a permanent loaner maybe a month or two ago, instead of having it sit in my garage, and he absolutely loves the noise. Like I said earlier, the noise is actually quite nice to me, but only in small doses.
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correction,, they're the Best for typing.
In your opinion.
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In your opinion.
This.
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i can tolerate just about any switch besides red and black.
blue being my favorite. possibly being over taken by green once a get a board with either ghetto greens or actual greens.
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I really enjoy typing on the blues. They feel great to me, and I don't mind the noise at all. I'm wondering how much I'd like different switches after reading all of these split opinions on here.
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Would like to try Topre someday, but first I'll worry about ordering my first mechanical keyboard tonight!
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Would like to try Topre someday, but first I'll worry about ordering my first mechanical keyboard tonight!
What are you getting?
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KBT-RACE /w Blues
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awesome, enjoy
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Has anyone gone from blues-> browns and acutally been happy with the switch? Currently on blues, but about to snag another board, was thinking browns.
I HATE blues but love browns! And yes, I tried blues first.
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Ergonomics > Brown
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Wondering what would be better to try next. brown, black, or red.. i could just deal with returning it each time if i don't like it lol
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Browns were my favorite by far, for a long time. But I will say that the more I type on this RealForce, the more I like it.
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What exactly do you like about the browns?
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They just feel more solid. I like s good solid feel to my keyswitches. I found that while I did like blues, the tactile point and click were almost too sharp. It felt "thin". That's the best way I can describe it. Browns had a bit more of a solid feel to them (probably because I bottom them out a bit more). I like the deeper sound they make rather than the high pitched "click" of the blues. It's more of a "clack". Also, the slight tactile point gives me feedback that the switch is actually doing something.
However, I've found that as far as Cherry switches go, it depends on what I'm doing. For gaming, I definitely prefer the reds. But for working/writing, browns followed by blues.
Although I'm really, really starting to think that I might end up preferring Topre to all of 'em.
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I have a feeling I will end up buying more mechanical keyboards, after this first one >>
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They just feel more solid. I like s good solid feel to my keyswitches. I found that while I did like blues, the tactile point and click were almost too sharp. It felt "thin". That's the best way I can describe it. Browns had a bit more of a solid feel to them (probably because I bottom them out a bit more). I like the deeper sound they make rather than the high pitched "click" of the blues. It's more of a "clack". Also, the slight tactile point gives me feedback that the switch is actually doing something.
However, I've found that as far as Cherry switches go, it depends on what I'm doing. For gaming, I definitely prefer the reds. But for working/writing, browns followed by blues.
Although I'm really, really starting to think that I might end up preferring Topre to all of 'em.
That's probably the main thing I don't like about blues. They have sort of a flimsy feel to them imo. I also like a solid feel.
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They just feel more solid. I like s good solid feel to my keyswitches. I found that while I did like blues, the tactile point and click were almost too sharp. It felt "thin". That's the best way I can describe it. Browns had a bit more of a solid feel to them (probably because I bottom them out a bit more). I like the deeper sound they make rather than the high pitched "click" of the blues. It's more of a "clack". Also, the slight tactile point gives me feedback that the switch is actually doing something.
However, I've found that as far as Cherry switches go, it depends on what I'm doing. For gaming, I definitely prefer the reds. But for working/writing, browns followed by blues.
Although I'm really, really starting to think that I might end up preferring Topre to all of 'em.
That's interesting. I know what you mean with the blues, and now I'm excited to try the browns and see how I like them. Would even be possible to replace my blue keyboard with them if i like em that much! But yeah, I definitely want to try the reds, I've heard they're great for gaming and all that.
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I have a feeling I will end up buying more mechanical keyboards, after this first one >>
Oh definitely, you will. My current 5 are after a 3 month bout last year that saw me blow through $1000 and end up with 11 boards, and then I turned around and sold all but 2, and then I gradually replaced them. I'm happy with my current lineup tho (we'll see how long that lasts).
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Oh definitely, you will. My current 5 are after a 3 month bout last year that saw me blow through $1000 and end up with 11 boards, and then I turned around and sold all but 2, and then I gradually replaced them. I'm happy with my current lineup tho (we'll see how long that lasts).
I dig your setup, and I wish I could try browns... I'm just not worried, with the amount of time I'm spending on this forum I know I'll pick up the "bug" to buy more.
I actually want to try Ergo Clears as well!
Where can I buy a ghetto keyboard with clears for cheap? I'm anticipating on learning how to solder/desolder and modify my first keyboard.
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Red ftw.
Blues are awesome because when you play SC2 with them it makes you feel like a boss!
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Red ftw.
Blues are awesome because when you play SC2 with them it makes you feel like a boss!
Haha that's exactly how I feel. Even If I am terrible and get dominated.. at least it sounds cool
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yeah, the first time I heard the sound.. I liked it!
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I watch enormous egos fighting and hating each other, different switches do not argue, just click.
Who dares to be holier than almighty me?
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i used to think that too, but after typing on reds for a while, that "tactile bump" feels damn nice
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My two cents: if you want tactile, get a Model M. Nothing compares. If you want to quiet it down a tad, do a grease or "floss" mod. I've done both.
Shockingly, if you remove the sound from the equation, a model M isn't as tactile as you think. I've put lots of miles on my Model M, I'm not saying they're bad, but a Realforce 55g is FAR more tactile than a model M in terms of "pop". Put headphones on and 2/3 of model M characteristics are gone.
And, BTW, I'm not any faster on my M than I am on browns. The opposite, in fact.
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No need to be elitest, ripster.
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You noobs should have been around when Geekhack had REAL HATE threads.
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If you like Reds I don't understand not liking browns.
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I like both Blues and browns but browns are my preference. I use them both frequently for different rolls.
Blues for typing at work all day and pissing off my neighboring officemates and Browns for everything else at home.
hat
As you can see in my sig I tried reds and while they were ok , the lack of the 55g slight tactile bump made them feel too soft for me. That barely distinguishable tactile bump is actually 10g worth of force difference.
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mx brown, the most overrated switch of all.
So very true. MX Browns feel like ****. That is why they are Brown.
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So what about Ergo Clears, they are like browns and feel more firm? I'd really like to know the difference between the feel of clears vs ergo clears (I believe the ergo is from it using red/blue/brown switches?)
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having used both, my opinion is that the browns feel and sound much better
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So what about Ergo Clears, they are like browns and feel more firm? I'd really like to know the difference between the feel of clears vs ergo clears (I believe the ergo is from it using red/blue/brown switches?)
Well, the Clears use one of the stiffest springs of all the Cherry MX switches. After typing for a while your fingers will fatigue. ErgoClears have the much lighter spring of the Red/Blue/Browns, so they are much more fun to type on for longer periods. And if you buy a keyboard with PCB mounted switches as basis for your modding project, you don't even have to solder. PCB mounted switches can be opened without desoldering them.
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So very true. MX Browns feel like ****. That is why they are Brown.
Bwahahahahaha.....
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Well, the Clears use one of the stiffest springs of all the Cherry MX switches. After typing for a while your fingers will fatigue. ErgoClears have the much lighter spring of the Red/Blue/Browns, so they are much more fun to type on for longer periods. And if you buy a keyboard with PCB mounted switches as basis for your modding project, you don't even have to solder. PCB mounted switches can be opened without desoldering them.
Unfortunately/fortunately (I want to learn to solder), I pre-ordered a KBT Race /w Blue switches. I believe I'd have to de-solder the LEDs to remove the switch (it is PCB mounted).
I bought a $15 kit from Frys - it's a learn-to-solder kit and I'll be making a european siren!
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I'm no fan of Cherry switches. They all feel cheap IMO, but if I were to choose, I'd pick the Reds. I can type fast on those, and their linear force curve is light enough not to get in the way.
The Browns feel like you're running through mud -- loud mud. The Blues are barely tactile. I've used rubber dome keyboards that felt better than either of these.
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Unfortunately/fortunately (I want to learn to solder), I pre-ordered a KBT Race /w Blue switches. I believe I'd have to de-solder the LEDs to remove the switch (it is PCB mounted).
I bought a $15 kit from Frys - it's a learn-to-solder kit and I'll be making a european siren!
Yup, that means you have to desolder the LEDs. But that shouldn't be as time consuming as desoldering the whole switches. And you should also get one of those: http://www.frys.com/product/6582353?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
You will need it to remove the solder.
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Yup, that means you have to desolder the LEDs. But that shouldn't be as time consuming as desoldering the whole switches. And you should also get one of those: http://www.frys.com/product/6582353?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
You will need it to remove the solder.
I'll do the european siren kit, and then buy that. I just hope theirs a youtube video on this, and a guide (I'm sure there is, I'm just not even ready to search it).
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So what about Ergo Clears, they are like browns and feel more firm? I'd really like to know the difference between the feel of clears vs ergo clears (I believe the ergo is from it using red/blue/brown switches?)
The clear stem is supposed to provide a much more prevalent tactile "bump". I haven't tried them (yet) but I expect that they'll be more like Realforce switches that have a "pop" in them that you can still feel as a "pop" when typing at speed.
Everyone needs to also remember that Cherry calls the brown switch "ergonomic" and not "tactile". Other people have called browns "tactile". If Cherry never meant them to be dubbed tactile, perhaps we shouldn't bash them and their switch for not being highly tactile - they were never meant to be highly tactile.
Based on my previous posts about how the brown's bump is enough to train the brain but not enough to feel like a bump (unless compared to a linear) I think that "ergonomic" is an excellent term to use. These properties are also probably why companies like Kinesis have used the brown all along.
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Shockingly, if you remove the sound from the equation, a model M isn't as tactile as you think.
That depends on how you define tactile. Personally, I think Model M's are the most tactile of all the keyboards I've used in terms of key-pop. There's a more perceptible bump, at least to my sensibilities.
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The clear stem is supposed to provide a much more prevalent tactile "bump". I haven't tried them (yet) but I expect that they'll be more like Realforce switches that have a "pop" in them that you can still feel as a "pop" when typing at speed.
Everyone needs to also remember that Cherry calls the brown switch "ergonomic" and not "tactile". Other people have called browns "tactile". If Cherry never meant them to be dubbed tactile, perhaps we shouldn't bash them and their switch for not being highly tactile - they were never meant to be highly tactile.
Based on my previous posts about how the brown's bump is enough to train the brain but not enough to feel like a bump (unless compared to a linear) I think that "ergonomic" is an excellent term to use. These properties are also probably why companies like Kinesis have used the brown all along.
They can call it chick-magnet 5000,, it still doesn't mean you're getting laid.
The tactility is clearly below sensation threshold.
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I bought a nice Filco TKL with browns, slapped on some PBT keys, and I haven't looked for a new keyboard since. It has now been over a year.
Feels good to be completely satisfied with a keyboard, rather than always looking for that better one.
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I bought a nice Filco TKL with browns, slapped on some PBT keys, and I haven't looked for a new keyboard since. It has now been over a year.
Feels good to be completely satisfied with a keyboard, rather than always looking for that better one.
You either have Stockholm syndrome, or belief perseverance.. So, you got ****ed over by inferior product, but you have to psychologically justify the expense to maintain your ego. Grow up, buy a better board. Sell your old one to some n00b.
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You either have Stockholm syndrome, or belief perseverance.. So, you got ****ed over by inferior product, but you have to psychologically justify the expense to maintain your ego. Grow up, buy a better board. Sell your old one to some n00b.
:blah:
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Browns seem to perhaps be better for the accomplished touch-typist. Unfortunately I grew up without typing classes, and have some rather bastardized version of how I type. It's not slow - I average anywhere from 80-110wpm on typeracer, but I think I strike the keys a lot harder that I would if I would have learned to touch type properly.
With that said, I prefer blues. I do wish they were less loud - but with the exact same "click" feel when you know you've just about actuated the key. I just can't seem to get up to max speed with the browns, although it may simply due to being far more familiar with the blues. When I find a good deal on a TKL w/ Blacks, I'll pick it up to compare as well.
I will say browns are far better than any rubber dome I've used. I do prefer them to my IBM Thinkpad keyboards, but the difference isn't as noticeable going from the laptop to the browns as it is to blues.
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This thread = gold.
Typed on a Filco MJ2 with MX Browns.
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You either have Stockholm syndrome, or belief perseverance.. So, you got ****ed over by inferior product, but you have to psychologically justify the expense to maintain your ego. Grow up, buy a better board. Sell your old one to some n00b.
It's your thread, so you are certainly entitled to your opinion (even if it's wrong). Maybe you could start your own forum!
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ripster...something is wrong with GH. I don't see any pics attached to your last post.
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You either have Stockholm syndrome, or belief perseverance.. So, you got ****ed over by inferior product, but you have to psychologically justify the expense to maintain your ego. Grow up, buy a better board. Sell your old one to some n00b.
It's rare to find such blatant trolling here on GH. Kudos
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That's not the universe, I'm afraid...I don't care what you religion says.
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It's rare to find such blatant trolling here on GH. Kudos
Just presenting the facts, I am !!
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Your perception of them is fascinating, I will admit.
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Stockholm syndrome was good too. I was imagining Cherry Brown users stuck in their Moms basement at 30 and thinking that was normal. Blue Cherry users are at their Wall Street desks banging away on their Blue Cherries at Goldman Sachs saying, FU - I'm a Boss!
LOL, just stuff i picked up in the newspapers.
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Blues = Ron Paul
Reds = Rick Perry
Browns = Barak Obama
Blacks = Hilary Clinton
Ergo Clears = Ross Perot
Buckling Springs = FDR
ALPS Complicated = Dennis Ritchie
DataHand = Steve Wozniak
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I'm late to the party - I've found clears and blacks too stiff, blues annoyingly loud (unless you want to piss off the rest of the office, or wake up your SO,) reds a bit too light, and browns annoyingly light in their tactility.
i'm going to have to go with Cherry MX switches suck, HURRRRR
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I'm late to the party - I've found clears and blacks too stiff, blues annoyingly loud (unless you want to piss off the rest of the office, or wake up your SO,) reds a bit too light, and browns annoyingly light in their tactility.
i'm going to have to go with Cherry MX switches suck, HURRRRR
Hmmmm. Does anyone have decibel ratings towards ending this BLUEs are too loud argument?
The loudest part of the keypress happens to be the bottom out, and rebound click (where the stem hits the top)
The egg crack mx-blue click is very miniscule compared to the above.
Although, i suppose one could make the argument that since the egg click is higher frequency it is perceived as louder than the lower frequency bottom-out and rebound click....
I'm gonna look for some hard numbers,, not sure what to query, hmm.. frequency vs perceived loudness.
HOLY ****,, ok it's on wiki
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44857[/ATTACH]
I do not have a good microphone, would someone with a good microphone record SINGLE blue switch for me, ONE with o-ring dampening, and One without??
Obviously I needn't remind, that placement matters. LOL
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You can find audio recordings of many of the keyboards you are talking about on youtube. Here, let me:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Ayoutube.com+compare+cherry+switch+sounds
If you want the easy way out, jut put on your headphones and watch this:
[video=youtube;mi1GejndyeQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi1GejndyeQ[/video]
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I am typing on my newly rekeyed and gasketed Filco MJ2 Cherry Blue board here. Together, these mods seem to have quieted things down a bit. I didn't gasket the number keys or the space bar, and they are louder. This leads me to conclude that the loudness is coming from the key/switch claking as it bottoms out, and not from the Cherry Blue switch's clicking mechanism. That is, as many have said here, more of a rattling Lego or eggshell sound.
Also, maybe I just have a special set of Cherry Blues, but I can *definitely* FEEL the "bump". I have headphones on now, and am being influenced by audio feedback less than usual, if at all. On my browns, I would say that the "bump" feels more like a bit of dirt that got into a Cherry Red switch. The main thing that I prefer about the Reds and Browns is that the keys seem to be held more securely, while the Blues seem to be just a little bit wobbly. If the more tactile bump of the Blues could be installed into Blues or Reds, I think that I would have the holy grail, or at least a close approximation of how I remember my Magitronics FK-5001 felt.
When did the kids start saying "typer"? It's TYPIST! :-P
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For those too damn lazy to push a few buttons, put on your headphones and watch this:
[video=youtube;mi1GejndyeQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi1GejndyeQ[/video]
Yea, this is exactly what I worry about,, very unscientific.. If one was to base their opinion of loudness on this type of demonstration...
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No no, I'm still going with "CHERRY MX SUCK HURRRRRRRRR."
What's unscientific about that?
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No no, I'm still going with "CHERRY MX SUCK HURRRRRRRRR."
What's unscientific about that?
No control, no baseline measurements, no precision in keystroke execution.
Hence, unscientific.
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No control, no baseline measurements, no precision in keystroke execution.
Hence, unscientific.
Ok, I'll bite. Control - this rubber dome keyboard sucks. Baseline measurement - this rubber dome keyboard sucks. Precision keystroke measurement - this Cherry MX switch sucks 1.02389 mega balls-in-mouth-inhalations (according to an empirical balls-in-mouth-inhalation measurement from your mom) of suck. What's there not to love?
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Blues = Ron Paul
Nice
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Blues = Ron Paul
Nice
Dude they've got Ron Paulsey, no one will vote for them.
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I'm late to the party - I've found clears and blacks too stiff, blues annoyingly loud (unless you want to piss off the rest of the office, or wake up your SO,) reds a bit too light, and browns annoyingly light in their tactility.
Well if I take an average of all of your comments, it seems like ergo-clears are the ticket for you. They are slightly stiffer than browns/reds and quite tactile. They sound about the same as browns and respond well to o-rings/pads.
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I am typing on my newly rekeyed and gasketed Filco MJ2 Cherry Blue board here. Together, these mods seem to have quieted things down a bit. I didn't gasket the number keys or the space bar, and they are louder. This leads me to conclude that the loudness is coming from the key/switch claking as it bottoms out, and not from the Cherry Blue switch's clicking mechanism. That is, as many have said here, more of a rattling Lego or eggshell sound.
Indeed, the Lego sound swamps the click in terms of loudness. I don't think it's about decibels, though. Model Ms are louder than any Cherry switch. I think it's the high-pitch of the "tick" of the blues that is particularly annoying. That combined with the ringing from PCB-mounted switches makes me want to chuck the board. Also some of my keys do this irritating "buzz", which I assume is the jumping bean vibrating after it smacks the bottom of the key well. It sounds so cheap.
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Blues = Ron Paul
Nice
LOL, yeah: Everyone really wants them, whether they know it or not, and would be better off with them, but will go along with the Brown crowd, because that's what gets the most "noise". Irony! The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but the clicky board gets the boot.
Oh! I totally forgot Topre!
Probably because I only just got my first keyboard with Topre switches, and the jury is still out. I half want to cry, for spending $350 on a rubber dome keyboard. But it does have a nice feel to it; the form factor, and layout seems well thought out; yet it positions itself as the One Board To Rule Them All.
Topre =
Full 55g Realforce = Newt Gingrich
Realforce U87 = Nanci Pelosi
HHKB = Alan Greenspan
WTF, why is there no TAB on iPad???
;-P
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I think this Blues hatred is reverse-McGurk: you hear something and it changes your view. I felt the same way about the Subaru WRX; it felt cheap and plastic. Meanwhile, the VW 337 felt solid, but still fun. I would have gone faster and more error-free with the extra 40HP and AWD of the Subaru, but I was just happier in the VW.
Blues = WRX
Browns = 337
Cherry switches are about as good as it gets for the masses these days. The only things that compare, in my experience, are ALPS Complicated, and Old School IBM Buckling Springs. (jury still out on Unicomp). Neither of those are still made, and old ones are old and showing deterioration.
FWIW, the best feeling keyboard I have typed on since joining geekhack is on an old IBM Wheelwriter at the library. Light but solid touch, medium travel, clear click at activation point, nice solid WHACK as hammer hits wheel, hits ribbon, hits paper, hits roller. If only someone could emulate that in a computer keyboard! :-)
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If the VW 337 is the GTI (in the US), I agree 100%. I f**king <3 the GTI.
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337 = anniversary special edition GTI. Only 1500 made. 337 was the code name for the original GTI project. ;-)
Alas, I was in the middle of a 5-car pileup, and insurance company refuses to pay up. I spent all my money on keyboards and cannot afford to fix the 337. :-(
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337 = anniversary special edition GTI. Only 1500 made. 337 was the code name for the original GTI project. ;-)
Alas, I was in the middle of a 5-car pileup, and insurance company refuses to pay up. I spent all my money on keyboards and cannot afford to fix the 337. :-(
OR you could get an R32 skyline for ~$15,000 Now that's a real "fun car."
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Or you can spend that $15,000 on mechanical keyboards, and make a lot of people in this world happy that are currently using rubber-domes!
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I'm a heavy, fast typer who just put o-rings on my Browns and I love it so far. The reduced travel means I can type just as fast as I can on a scissor switch keyboard...
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I'm a heavy, fast typer who just put o-rings on my Browns and I love it so far. The reduced travel means I can type just as fast as I can on a scissor switch keyboard...
Ummm.... too bad mx-brown isn't tactile enough to achieve ultimate speeed. The key to all games is hit confirm... blue has it, brown, not so much
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Ummm.... too bad mx-brown isn't tactile enough to achieve ultimate speeed. The key to all games is hit confirm... blue has it, brown, not so much
Wait...what? You were only talking about gaming? And here I thought we were talking about typing.
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You either have Stockholm syndrome, or belief perseverance.. So, you got ****ed over by inferior product, but you have to psychologically justify the expense to maintain your ego. Grow up, buy a better board. Sell your old one to some n00b.
What? I think you have way too much time on your hands and going insane in that cave of yours. Just a guess.
Also, I am just satisfied. I'm not a poor soul always looking for something better, which does not exist, and all while wasting so much money in the process.
I wouldn't make a thread trying to confirm your opinion that 'browns suck' and trying to engrave it in people's mind to help yourself think you made the right decision ;)
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What? I think you have way too much time on your hands and going insane in that cave of yours. Just a guess.
Also, I am just satisfied. I'm not a poor soul always looking for something better, which does not exist, and all while wasting so much money in the process.
I wouldn't make a thread trying to confirm your opinion that 'browns suck' and trying to engrave it in people's mind to help yourself think you made the right decision ;)
This would be the case if I "didn't" buy every type of keyboard from amazon, and returned all the ones except for mx-blue.
Too much time,, perhaps,, cave,, also yes,, but it's a cave with internet..
BTW,, browns suck.
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Wait...what? You were only talking about gaming? And here I thought we were talking about typing.
Have you ever played piano?? Try doing that with gloves,,, that is what mx browns feel like. No hit confirm,, and by "game" i was including all undertakings that are commonly done with a keyboard, including but not limited to actual video games. Things like typeracer, and 10fast are included.
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Browns are too soft for me. Blues with o-rings are ideal.
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i think that the browns are ok for typing, but then i really prefer the blue becuz it has a strong "clicky" feeling than the browns
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I used to like boards because they were clicky. Now I think that boards are good even though they are clicky (model M for instance).