geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: smknjoe on Sat, 12 May 2012, 23:34:15
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What is the correct order of tactility from lowest to highest? I have read many conflicting stats. here and at deskthority. I would like input from those who have actually used the switches.
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I can only comment on the 45g Topre, as it's the only one I've tried. But as far as tactility, I'd have to say (IMO):
Buckling Spring -> Cherry Clear -> Cherry Blue -> Topre 45g -> Cherry Brown -> Black/Red
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Tactility on Topres is almost null. I couldn't use them because of it. It was just enough to not be even like a linear switch, but not enough to be noticeably tactile.
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Tactility of Topre switches is more noticeable on higher load rubber domes. I see that in my variable Realforce. Also, as the rubber ages (to some point) and get stiffer you get more tactility. For instance, my 5-year old HHKB is meant to be 45g, but it is close to 60g and has tons of tactility.
I mostly agree with daerid on
Buckling Spring -> Cherry Clear -> Cherry Blue -> Topre 45g -> Cherry Brown -> Black/Red
but I would like to add three points
1. Clears feel pretty similar to Topre 55g except that clears are stiffer than Topre 55g.
2. Topre 45g when new is less tactile than new brown switch.
3. tactility seem to change over time for browns and Topres. From my experience, browns lose and Topres gain tactility as it gets used over time.
Note: I have not used blues and clears long enough to say somethings about how their feel changes over time. I have been using HHKB and Filco numpad(browns) for five years now. I have Poker now with swapped stems. e.g. my Esc is Clear, Ctrl and Alt are blue, Shift is brown, etc.
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My 87u feels the same and measures the same as it was the day I bought it.
No, it doesn't. Don't make nickles and 1 Yen coins lie. Why are you saying the same WRONG thing over and over again?
Quote 1
I seriously doubt it got ANY stiffer. Nickels or paper clips never lie according to Newton.
Quote 2
So Girlz now that you little spat is hopefully over.... these are the numbers:
50g
(Attachment) 44144[/ATTACH]
or around 52g using 1Yen 1.00g pieces if you want Webwit false precision (see Elitekeyboards post earlier in this thread before all the bickering).
(Attachment) 44143[/ATTACH]
I'm typing on it now after a week on the Cherry Reds. It does feel a bit stiffer but if it's anything like last time in a week my fingers will adjust.
I AM curious to see if the RipOmeter (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189) numbers come down though. They were 45g when I measured it here:
The Invention Of The RipOmeter (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189) - A MOMENTOUS Occasion In Keyboard Science
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5697&do=comments&page=6
(Attachment) 44146[/ATTACH]
Quote2 : 52-45=7
Quote1 : 52-45=0??
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My experience so far has been: black < clear < or = brown < blue
I am referring to tactile feedback only, not actuation force.
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Because gravity and nickels don't like.
RipOmeter (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189)
I suppose you meant gravity and nickels don't lie. No, they don't. But it seems you do. They are telling truth all along but you are interpreting them all wrong.
How hard is it to do subtraction? 52-45=7 That is by the way about 15% increase.
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What is the correct order of tactility from lowest to highest? I have read many conflicting stats. here and at deskthority. I would like input from those who have actually used the switches.
"Lowest to highest" what, exactly? Respectfully, this question doesn't make much sense. The various switches classed as "tactile" have different force curves and so offer different typing experiences.
Are you thinking about the closeness between tactile peak and actuation point? Or the difference between the tactile peak and the trough that follows? Or the starting force? Or the maximum at the tactile peak? Or what?
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"Lowest to highest" what, exactly? Respectfully, this question doesn't make much sense. The various switches classed as "tactile" have different force curves and so offer different typing experiences.
Are you thinking about the closeness between tactile peak and actuation point? Or the difference between the tactile peak and the trough that follows? Or the starting force? Or the maximum at the tactile peak? Or what?
Well, to me, tactile feedback is the information sent back to the fingertips during the actuation process before bottoming out. The force charts floating around seem to only tell part of the feedback story. For example, clears have higher "everything" compared to browns but I feel the "bump" is less than or equal to the browns. The blues, on the other hand, have a much more noticeable "bump" than either.
An example of tactility without direct correlation to force applied would be the tactile feedback feature on many smart phones. In those cases tactility is determined by how forcefully the device shakes and provides feedback to your fingers.
What is the order the switches "shake at your fingers" from least to most?
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Blues and the new Whites do have a slapbck effect increasing their tactility.
Plus sound. My iPad fools me into thinking it is tactile.
I ke meaning to write this all up into a Ripster Guide but spend my days rolling back the old ones.
It seems to me that the blues are more tactile than clears due to the slapback effect even though the clears appear to a larger hump on their stem.
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topre is better !!
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Precisely.
Physics. KEYBOARD SCIENCE FTW!
Now what about Topre vs blues?
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Topre feels very different to me than blue switches, but I also find the tactility of blues very different in feel to browns. Having only tried Topre 55g, I would say its tactile qualities are more similar to browns, but the switch is stiffer requiring quite a bit more force to get over that initial hump in the force diagram. I never tried clears, but would imagine the feel is closer to that of the Topre 55g, with Topre having a more apparent drop-off in required force after actuation.
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We can't call linear switches tactile, right? :)
Anyway, I find daerid correct on the steps except I would switch the browns with the topres. I find the topres much smoother than browns but I prefer the feel of topres, at least the 45g version.
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We can't call linear switches tactile, right? :)
Right, although I've seen them referred to as tactile.
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Topres are tactile, but you have to keep in mind that the tactile point is at the very top of the press, not at the actuation point. It's kind of weird to compare their tactility to that of an MX switch.
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Topres are tactile, but you have to keep in mind that the tactile point is at the very top of the press, not at the actuation point. It's kind of weird to compare their tactility to that of an MX switch.
It looks like you have the whole rainbow. Do you think Topres are worth trying if I like blues better than browns? I also like blacks because they are so smooth, but its hard to tell when they've been actuated. So, I tend to bottom out on blacks (on purpose.)
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Blues (home) and 55g Topres (work) are my standard daily drivers these days, so I think Topres are absolutely worth trying if you like blues more than browns. You should probably consider the 55g ones before the 45g ones if you're looking for something more tactile. You'll definitely bottom out on them, but it's softer than bottoming out on Cherry MX switches.
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I'm very tempted to try the HHKB - I really like the layout. Many people say they feel heavier than 45g. Any thoughts?