I don't know how loud the Alps are, but I can rank some of the cherries based on my own observations:
1. Blues: 5
2. Browns: 3
3. Reds: 2.5
4. Average Rubber Dome: 2
I would say that MX browns are about 50% louder than rubber dome.
I don't know how loud the Alps are, but I can rank some of the cherries based on my own observations:In my experience, browns are pretty quiet, if you don't bottom out. I still have yet to try o rings, though.
1. Blues: 5
2. Browns: 3
3. Reds: 2.5
4. Average Rubber Dome: 2
I would say that MX browns are about 50% louder than rubber dome.
Is this new Tactile Pro going to be available in Windows layout?
I could forgive the garish case if I can just have all 105 ISO keys where IBM and Microsoft intended ;-) (AutoHotkey does NOT work inside remote access software, for starters.)
Just a suggestion: it must be very expensive (and scary) to commit to buy hundreds of thousands of switches from the factory. If the switch you are developing is Alps based you may want to offer to sell these switches on the side for hobbyists to solder into their old Alps based boards.
You probably won't sell a ton but if you can sell a few thousand - well - that's a few thousand off the contract.
Fukka switches do have a disadvantage: ALPS switches are noisy. That you have rectified this is a big advantage.
Now we just have to guess the colour of the sliders in the new switch (is this a Simplified ALPS Type V, or is it a complicated switch?)
Wait, I thought the EKII was damped? Those don't sound damped to me.
Definitely liking the idea of these new ALPS-style switches so far. How do they compare to black StrongMan switches (type III)?
[video=youtube;VQOA0PtIXYY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQOA0PtIXYY&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL952328BC009E9E4D[/video]
How much more quiet than this?
Not sure why that one is so loud. Maybe it's been harvested, or it could be that it wasn't miked properly. Who knows.
I have boards with Fukka Alps switches and they're crazy loud. But I want to believe, I really do...
Looks like mine are type II "XM" simplified yype II alps and read much better things about type I which I don't have.
Topres are much quieter than MX keyboards, even when you bottom out. THe other choice, as mentioned earlier, would be to buy a mx brown keyboard and get some 40A o-rings to silence them.
Rubber dampers like in the EKII?
I don't know what BBC Micro Type I switches have, but the bottoming out impact is totally silent. However, the return sound is so loud that overall it's worse, because the keystroke sounds lag behind your typing :)
I've never used an EK or EKII – for me the issue with the AT101W isn't the sound, but the stiff, gungy feel compared to the fluid, clean strokes of the Fukkas in the TP3 and complicated blues. I've vaguely used some old Apple boards with tactile ALPS (Macintosh 128K and that other one) and those felt perfect.
They are bright orange. Internal structure is similar to the switches on the Apple Extended Keyboard II, but more tactile and quieter.If so, should also be similar to the SGI Granite keyboards I used years ago and liked quite well. I never owned one of my own but used them at work for years. Dampened white alps IIRC, sounds promising, thanks for the info...
If so, should also be similar to the SGI Granite keyboards I used years ago and liked quite well. I never owned one of my own but used them at work for years. Dampened white alps IIRC, sounds promising, thanks for the info...
My heavily worn complicated blue board feels very similar to brand new Fukkas, very smooth and clean and sharp. My only recollection of the Macintosh 128K keyboard and the ALPS PowerMac (?) board was that they were very light and smooth, like Cherry MX blue, but like all ALPS
hopefully the Tactile Pro 5 will introduce a clicky switch similar to the complicated blue …
Then there's the black keycaps – I'd love to hear that they'll be doubleshot, but I don't believe that for a moment. All-over coated pad printing is the next best, as it doesn't dirty and break up like laser spooge, but it can all wear off in an ugly way. I don't know what Topre use for their dark gold lettering – looks like paint. I've even seen a brand new Dell Latitude laptop a couple of months back without the decal look – maybe they used all-over coating? Couldn't tell, but it was so wonderful to see that even Dell will, occasionally, make an effort over quality. Decal look is for chumps.
For white keyboards (e.g. TP3) you want dyesub, as it's inky black and smooth (if done right – Acer did it perfectly), unlike the erratic grey scarring from laser.
A couple more question(s):
Have you added rubber pads on the bottom of the keyboard? The TP3 likes to slide around quite a bit.
Also, how does the space bar sound? This was quite loud on the TP3.
Very excited to try these!
I don't know how loud the Alps are, but I can rank some of the cherries based on my own observations:
1. Blues: 5
2. Browns: 3
3. Reds: 2.5
4. Average Rubber Dome: 2
I would say that MX browns are about 50% louder than rubber dome.
The two best print methods I've seen are UV painting and laser when done properly.
For white keycaps, laser is amazingly good, as long as the laser is set correctly and they don't ink-fill it. If you get that engraved look, it's because the laser operator didn't know what they were doing, or were too lazy to adjust the machine properly.
It's a funny thing... I have a few AEKII boards and they don't all feel the same. I don't know if it's because they're old, or if they didn't have strict enough QC standards. Some definitely feel better than others.
From what I've read here, laser has never worked for dark keys – the white spooge stains brown quickly, and has been known to crack and fall out of the grooves. Some people also complain about being able to feel the lettering; the same complaint is heard about pad printing, but if anything I actually like it.
The TP3 and the AT102W are the same – all you see is scorched plastic. Plastic never looks good after you've melted it. The result is very low contrast, rough lettering. Dye sub is so much better than laser, as the edges of the lettering are sharper, you can cover solid area (e.g. the Apple logo) properly, and it's jet black.
Which reminds me, do Matias ALPS switches have any mitigation for keypulling? :)
You can get those for ALPS switches? (It's going to be interesting to see what affect the Matias ALPS switch has on the availability of ALPS caps, which are as good as nonexistent at the moment.)
...I love alps, but just hate the restrictions for key choice:(
So we can assume a new board with "alps" switches might present the possibly of a greater selection of colors for keys in regards to alps, not to mention the switches- "very cool." Did you tell us earlier (?) what color the new board, keys will be and I'm guessing the end of summer or so for production?
Yeah, I'm not sure what is going on for that. One of the things I've noticed is that, so far for me anyway, the ones that look like they are truly cream colored are the ones that don't feel good. The ones that look stark white (they make the complicated whites look gray) do. I've only managed to get two that were stark white and unfortunately the first one was the best I'd used before and it got parted out.
I'm quite interested in those new ones though, I just hope I don't find either the switches or the whole thing too expensive. I generally use older stuff, so that might be a lowish number to most here.
Yes, the SGI Granite keyboards used the same switches. They're a solid solution to the noise problem. :-)interesting! i've used one of those, but it was quite a long time ago. in fact, i think there's still one hanging out around the lab...
[video=youtube;VQOA0PtIXYY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQOA0PtIXYY&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL952328BC009E9E4D[/video]
How much more quiet than this?
That video sounds nothing like dampened ALPS. I did a full switch swap on a SIIG Minitouch to go to Dampened ALPS from an AEKII link here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10247), sorry my pics got broken when I took my site down. It's a very quiet keyboard and I love those switches.
That sounds closer. But still pretty far off. Just for fun I typed the same sentence he did on an AEKII that I put regular white click leaves as well as the regular sliders. It sounded the same. Maybe he just types like superman?Could be the typing style, condition of keyboard, mic setup, etc.
Apple uses laser etching on all their keyboards and they look great.
Like I said, the key to laser is to have good quality plastic, have the laser set correctly, and not ink-fill it. The ink-fill will always wear off.
If you know how to use a puller, they come right off. :-)
Grimey did that here
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?32362-My-AT101W-Collection (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?32362-My-AT101W-Collection)
and seemed to get a result that he was pleased with.
No, they don't. ALPS caps are exceptionally tight, though once you've removed a cap you can find that it comes off a lot easier the next time – Acers work like that.
I'm really curious what it is that has been done to make XMs nice, as opinions on the green XMs are universally positive.
I'm glad to read that Matias ALPS will be coming out in "loud" versions (I presume that means undamped, rather than clicky), as Fukka is a good switch and something needs to replace them, although it sounds like XM could do the trick if you want actual clicky switches as I do at home. Except why green? Green means linear :P
It depends on the how tight the caps are, what environment it's been used/stored in and your technique in removing them. With ALPS it's more important to pull them straight up than Cherries, but most can be easily removed if you do it correctly.
Saw the eye from Matias' avatar but wasn't really focusing on it. Just came to me it's the Bladerunner opening scene eye belonging to special effects guy Richard Rippel. Nice avatar.
I do pull straight up with a wire keypuller. They're just notoriously stiff – something about the keycap interface. Just figured that maybe there was a way to make them easier to remove, given how many people have trouble with ALPS caps.
What name will Matias' new keyboard switch have?
Will the switch's casing be compatible with Alps? Same size spring?
One more weird thing, the nubs aren't on F, J, they are on D and K because Steve Jobs liked to be different.
We haven't decided on the name yet, but you can call them Matias Orange and Matias White switches for now -- whites being the traditional clicky ones.Nice, I think a lot of us were wondering about pin compatibility with old ALPS which I don't recall having seen addressed earlier in this thread. Now I would have expected them to be pin compatible but never good to assume anything. Not hard to imagine some of us replacing some clacky XMs with these from what you've described. Thanks.
Externally, they are identical in size and pin position to ALPS. Internally, the spring spec is different and the leaf cavity is a little tighter (to eliminate noise).
I'm glad to read that Matias ALPS will be coming out in "loud" versions (I presume that means undamped, rather than clicky), as Fukka is a good switch and something needs to replace them,
Definitely buying the new Matias though, hopefully the ISO version will hop over to Keyboardco in short order :)
You can recreate the feel of the old Black ALPS by matching up the leaf of an orange switch with the slider of a white.
Tell them you want them and see what they say... :-)
Complicated black ALPS is horrible – why would I want to do that? ;)
Wait … there are no plans yet for Keyboardco to add the board to the existing range of Matias products that they carry? Are they even aware of this board yet?
Nice, I think a lot of us were wondering about pin compatibility with old ALPS which I don't recall having seen addressed earlier in this thread. Now I would have expected them to be pin compatible but never good to assume anything. Not hard to imagine some of us replacing some clacky XMs with these from what you've described. Thanks.
Yes, I've already gotten one PM from a GHer wanting to buy switches for their existing boards. The new switches are diffinitely pin compatible with original ALPS and XM.
I may be getting confused, as on double-checking, this video is of the original Extended Keyboard, so it's tactile and non-damped, which is why it doesn't sound damped :)
[video=youtube;afSz616PpwM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSz616PpwM[/video]
It will be interesting to see if we ever get another undamped tactile ALPS keyboard again – the only one in recent years seems to be the ABS M1. The AT102W doesn't quite live up to the precise sound that I was expecting, as it sounds a bit loose and muffled.
However, with the high-pitched ping removed from the new switches, could we see the return to the deep but warm resonance of blue complicated ALPS? My FILCO Zero XM had a very empty, dry sound that lacked the character that even a good tactile switch should have, such as the AEK. Type IV simplified (which I just picked up on Sunday) seems to be in the middle in terms of sound.
would you be able to provide some charts comparing your switches against the mx (blue,red,brown, black) and the topres?. It will be nice to see them all of them side by side
When and where will we be able to buy the switchs? :D.
What would you want shown in the charts?
^ The activation forces of your switch, beside the MXs and Topres
Are both units the same in both charts? What about red, black, blue mxI believe units are the same yes.
They'll be available when the actual keyboards ship -- in about 2 months. You'll be ablt to buy them directly from our website
BTW, I'm a fan of your Matias half-qwerty method. I tried a half-qwerty layer on my DIY keyboard and I became a fan of it.Thanks for mentioning that. Guess I've been in a cave, never heard of this but googled it and pretty cool stuff.
Something like these but for the New Matias switch?
Cherry MX BrownShow Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11339)
ALPSShow Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11173)
Are both units the same in both charts? What about red, black, blue mx
BTW, I'm a fan of your Matias half-qwerty method. I tried a half-qwerty layer on my DIY keyboard and I became a fan of it.
Thanks for mentioning that. Guess I've been in a cave, never heard of this but googled it and pretty cool stuff.
Actually, Steve wasn't at Apple at that time.
The reason for the nubs on D and K was to be consistent with the nub on the number pad -- all under the middle finger.
Ducky is on the fence on whether or not to continue producing the XM switch keyboards. They might like to discontinue them and use these instead. It also wouldn't compete with the Matias product because I doubt you will sell a tenkeyless version.
Ha, I never thought of that but you're right. Schooled.
The new switches are lighter than the TP3, and feel more consistent. Fukkas are rated at 70±25 gf -- which means they can be as heavy as 95 gf and as light as 45 gf. Not the greatest.
Our new switches are rated at 60±5 gf -- which means they're between 55 and 65 gf. That's just enough to hold the weight of your fingers on the keyboard.
If it's so light that it doesn't have enough resistance to hold the weight of your hands, then YOU are actually exerting force to prevent the keys going down -- which is VERY bad. You get tired quicker and are more susceptible to injury.
This is why I don't like the lighter Cherrys. Unless you have really light hands, the lighter switches don't provide enough resistence to hold them up.
Saw the eye from Matias' avatar but wasn't really focusing on it. Just came to me it's the Bladerunner opening scene eye belonging to special effects guy Richard Rippel. Nice avatar.
Thanks. :-)
Bladerunner was the first movie I ever saw that changed my outlook on the future. Totally blew my mind!
Also, will you provide a cheap board wiith those new switchs? not necessarely of bad quality, just the bare minimum to get a low priced brand new mechanical keyboard
You inspired me, found some wallpaper and put that big eye as background on my tablet. Bladerunner is a classic, told my son to go see Prometheus as it is the first Science Fiction from Ridley Scott since Bladerunner 30 years ago.
How cheap do you mean?
We've seen some rosewell deals at ~56$ and some new cherry keyboards sell at ~50€ in europe. And your switchs seemed to cost less than cherry MX switchs :P
BTW: if you are interested in using GH as some sort of communication medium, you could ask to get a vendor subforum !
This way, your visibility will rise, and I'll know where I can follow your announcements :P
Are you seriously hounding a manufacturer who designed a keyboard from the ground up including redesign of mechanical switches to justify charging over $50 for a keyboard?
Go design your own keyboard from scratch including switches and sell it for $50.
Both the Rosewill and Cherry 3800 are pieces of crap. For every defective Filco there are 10 Rosewill's with snapped USB connectors and mushy switches (despite everyone assuming the same factory does the same number of QC checks on both boards.)
Until a competitor comes out with a quiet tactile mechanical switch that rivals this, Matias should set prices to where he can make a profit and stay in business.
We've seen some rosewell deals at ~56$ and some new cherry keyboards sell at ~50€ in europe. And your switchs seemed to cost less than cherry MX switchs :P
BTW: if you are interested in using GH as some sort of communication medium, you could ask to get a vendor subforum !
This way, your visibility will rise, and I'll know where I can follow your announcements :P
I never meant to be the slightest way mean or whatever to him. I'm just interested in his thoughts, and tried to hold a conversation, as I*have much respect for him and his products. My words are only driven by curiosity.
If I*appeared to have any other intention, please excuse myself, and allow me to blame the fact I'm not a native english speaker. Even though I'm perfectly able to express myself, I don't have enough practice to perceive the little details which give out the tone of my phrases. That, or it was just clumsiness and/or social ineptie from my side.
Both the Rosewill and Cherry 3800 are pieces of crap. For every defective Filco there are 10 Rosewill's with snapped USB connectors and mushy switches (despite everyone assuming the same factory does the same number of QC checks on both boards.)
Thank you. That's sort of what I wanted to know. I wasn't aware of those differences. I've only heard positive reviews from those boards.I have two Rosewills, an original blue and a new red. They're both fine. mini-USB connectors probably aren't robust enough to use for something like that but so far mine is fine and I don't expect to have a problem if I'm careful. These seem to be love it or hate it boards, few in the middle. I love mine.
PM or email imav to get a vendor subforum. we love giving vendors visibility here, so there shouldn't be an issue.
and yes, rosewill is newegg's house brand. those boards are ODM'd to hit that price point, and unfortunately it does show in some ways (not that they're bad deals, but they're not rugged and/or original enough for some).
quite interested in the new switches!
regarding force charts, if you have an accurate measurement device (and presumably you guys do), one thing the community could really use is some nice empirical force charts of common switches. it would be a huge contribution that we would be eternally grateful for :)
Ah okay, I didn't know that. That's very interesting...while this is true, we often recommend the rosewill around these parts because the ODM is costar, the same company that builds filco boards, and generally a pretty reliable manufacturer.
Basically, this means that they don't know how to design keyboards themselves. They just contract with a factory to rebrand one of the factory's designs. This is risky, because factories are rarely any good at design -- there's always some flaw or mistake they don't bother fixing.
Many factories don't care very much, and if the customer isn't knowledgeable enough to know what can go wrong, bad things can happen and you get very uneven quality control. One production run could be perfect, while another could be a total disaster.
The bottom line is that they need to watch their vendors like hawks, and companies who don't know how to do that, often have their customers suffering the consequences.
Thank you for your complementary information.
Also, will the european distribution for the new boards be assured by the keyboard compagny ?
while this is true, we often recommend the rosewill around these parts because the ODM is costar, the same company that builds filco boards, and generally a pretty reliable manufacturer.
that said, the filco and rosewill designs are not identical, and the subtle differences in build and QC do add up.
oh, i see :)
i was under the impression that costar was the trade name of the factory. this is very much new information to us.
So Matias, when do you think the earliest you will be able to post pictures of this new board?
Will the keyboard ping and how will the orange switches feel compared to the Cherry MX brown switches?
It won't ping. We eliminated the ping. They are quieter and more tactile than the MX brown switches, but still feel pretty light. If you like tactile, they feel better than the Cherrys.
Can we start a fresh topic for this? This thread has been thoroughly hijaaked as it is.
Edit: I'm mainly suggesting this because it's an interesting discussion that's been hidden in a thread about a fairly typical question.
I am neutral on tactile feel as I am new to mechanical keyboards and don't know what to make of the various switches. What do you mean by light? How much force to bottom out compared to the MX brown switches?
How much will these keyboards cost?
It won't ping. We eliminated the ping.
I am neutral on tactile feel as I am new to mechanical keyboards and don't know what to make of the various switches. What do you mean by light? How much force to bottom out compared to the MX brown switches?
He did say he eliminated the ping. I would assume that means completely.
I'm worried that Matias have eliminated ping entirely, because I was annoyed that my XM ALPS FILCO Zero had no ping at all, and it sounded too "dry" and dead. I will be sad if there's no ping.
He did say he eliminated the ping. I would assume that means completely.
It can be interpreted to mean that the keyboard now sounds like pure plastic, or that only the excessive ringing ("ping") has been eliminated. "ping" seems to refer to the sound of switches when they're loud enough to be distinctly noticeable, i.e. the point when it crosses a person's annoyance threshold; a lack of "ping" doesn't mean that the sound isn't there – it is.
this seems like a great discussion to inaugurate the new matias vendor forum with!
http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?103-Matias
edgar, would you like to do the honors?
The new switches are lighter than the TP3, and feel more consistent. Fukkas are rated at 70±25 gf -- which means they can be as heavy as 95 gf and as light as 45 gf. Not the greatest.Thank you very very very very very much for having enough brainpower available to you that you actually think about ergonomics. This places you 30 lightyears ahead of most ppl.
Our new switches are rated at 60±5 gf -- which means they're between 55 and 65 gf. That's just enough to hold the weight of your fingers on the keyboard.
If it's so light that it doesn't have enough resistance to hold the weight of your hands, then YOU are actually exerting force to prevent the keys going down -- which is VERY bad. You get tired quicker and are more susceptible to injury.
This is why I don't like the lighter Cherrys. Unless you have really light hands, they don't provide enough resistence to hold them up.I have never had a problem with accidentally activating keys on my Cherry MX Red keyboard.
Basically, this means that they don't know how to design keyboards themselves. They just contract with a factory to rebrand one of the factory's designs. This is risky, because factories are rarely any good at design -- there's always some flaw or mistake they don't bother fixing.
Many factories don't care very much, and if the customer isn't knowledgeable enough to know what can go wrong, bad things can happen and you get very uneven quality control. One production run could be perfect, while another could be a total disaster.
The bottom line is that they need to watch their vendors like hawks, and companies who don't know how to do that, often have their customers suffering the consequences.
I need force graphs of your switches.Quotequite interested in the new switches!
regarding force charts, if you have an accurate measurement device (and presumably you guys do), one thing the community could really use is some nice empirical force charts of common switches. it would be a huge contribution that we would be eternally grateful for :)
Okay, I'll see what we can do. There are a lot of different switches out there, but we can certainly include the usual suspects.
while this is true, we often recommend the rosewill around these partsAre you saying you have a Rosewill and you still recommend them? Why?
because the ODM is costar, the same company that builds filco boards, and generally a pretty reliable manufacturer.The differences between Filco and Rosewill are not subtle. They are right there staring me in the face and annoying me 24 hours a day.
that said, the filco and rosewill designs are not identical, and the subtle differences in build and QC do add up.
Alright, so I got my Rosewill RK9000 with cherry MX browns. ... As for noise though, it's less noisy than the AT101W and the model M. It is still noisier than my cheap rubber dome at work. So, the question remains as to whether or not it will pass the decibel test. I'll bring the board to work on Monday and find out. If I could learn to type quickly without bottoming out, this keyboard would be very silent, but with the lighter keypresses, I'm not sure that's gonna happen.Did u succeed in learning to type without crashing?
It's like learning to ride a motorcycle. It's different than a bicycle, but you still remember how to ride the bicycle afterwards.Does this mean you can switch between Qwerty, Colemak and Dvorak without probems?
It's like learning to ride a motorcycle. It's different than a bicycle, but you still remember how to ride the bicycle afterwards.Does this mean you can switch between Qwerty, Colemak and Dvorak without probems?