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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: Daniel Beardsmore on Fri, 15 June 2012, 18:59:07

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Fri, 15 June 2012, 18:59:07

I use an IntelliMouse Optical 1.1 at work and at home, and unless I've done something very wrong, it's buggy even by IntelliMouse standards. (It's also particularly trashy looking compared to Logitech and Cherry)

On both PCs the mouse tends to notch the wheel up one step after certain events such as switching window – it's random and I've never figured out what exactly triggers it only that I routinely have to scroll down a notch again. I had phantom notching with my old beige IntelliMouse too; the Firefox bug raised for this behaviour indicates a belief that it's an IntelliMouse fault as everyone who's experienced it has one. Comparitively, I've never had phantom events with Dell mice, which work flawlessly. The new stock Dell mice are great, except they're only 3-button and I'm used to 5 now.

I also find that on mousedown and mouseup (any button from 1 to 5) frequently moves the cursor 1–2 pixels in the x and/or y axes, based on the last-seen motion of the cursor. This is also a completely random occurrence.

I see Cherry has a very stylish 5-button mouse, but it's also a tilt wheel and my experience with a both a Logitech MX400 Laser and Microsoft Comfort Mouse 4000 is that they're problematic – it's far too hard to get a middle click to register, and especially on the 4500 the detent-free wheel just spins instead of depressing.

My mouse grip (claw grip) suits one button per side, as my thumb can't reach two longitudinally positioned side buttons. The Sidewinder has both side buttons in easy reach, but I'm wary of another MS mouse since they're so prone to spurious events. I also find that the IntelliMouse Optical wheel is gungy and has excessive play and is prone to getting stuck half-way between notches – it's a really cheap product, so cheap that the side button recesses are sharp and uncomfortable when new.

TL;DR: There must be a decent 5+ button mouse out there with sharp, well-defined wheel notches, precise and reliable wheel clicks, the ability to actually send cursor movement and button presses without screwing up constantly, and not look like trash!

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: sawedust on Fri, 15 June 2012, 19:54:13

As a claw grip user myself, there's only one mouse I'd recommend that fits your preferences: CM Storm Spawn, assuming you mouse with your right hand.

The Spawn is custom-made for claw-grip users like you and me.  The side buttons are very close together, so reaching either with your thumb shouldn't be a problem.  There are two additional buttons on top of the mouse, but they're somewhat awkward to reach especially if you're working very quickly (i.e. playing games).  The software allows you to customize the buttons to your heart's content.  The Spawn is decently priced too; in the US, you can get them for 30 USD.  Not sure where the outlets are for Spawn mice in England, you'll have to check that on your own.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Fri, 15 June 2012, 20:17:59

Yep, right-handed. Not a gamer though – I just use the side buttons for Back, Forwards, and systemwide mouse gestures (right-drag is already widely used, so Back-drag gets used instead).

What's the wheel like on that thing?

Software for me is pretty much a No. I tried the IntelliMouse drivers at one stage, but they were broken too – a wheel notch blocked middle mouse for a moment, which for me is switch and close tab in Firefox.

I do have a use for a button 6 though – I want to be able to press something that brings up a popup menu of all open windows under the cursor, but I'm using all five buttons already :-)

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: sawedust on Fri, 15 June 2012, 20:54:07

Granted, the mouse is gaming-oriented but it still fits your needs.  The default setup (no software) has the side buttons mapped to forward and back, the top buttons to on-the-fly DPI.

The wheel mouse feels very soft to the touch.  When scrolling, the feel is a little muted but still distinct, with no skipping whatsoever.  It's a very smooth experience.  The DeathAdder I had before this had a more solid scroll, but it wasn't the right fit for my claw grip.

To make full use of the mouse's ability, you need to use the software which I understand you're against right now.  The software, in my experience, has been flawless except for one thing: you cannot have Chrome opened while playing with the software.  It will freeze the program.  Just make sure Chrome is not opened when you're configuring the software and you should be good to go.  Any of the seven buttons can be customized to whatever function you wish once the software is up and running.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sat, 16 June 2012, 10:05:29

The red is pretty dreadful, but there's the cheaper, cut-down Xornet that allows you to have the mouse in black, leaving only the ghastly branding. (What is it with gamers and terrible aesthetic sense?)

I just wish someone could back me up in the IMO being painfully prone to spurious events, because so far as I can see, it's my presence at the computer that causes it, despite not seeing it with Dell mice.

Dell do 6-button mice – I'm tempted in their direction simply because their 3-button mice work so well. I don't know that some complex gamer mouse isn't going to find new and unexpected ways to break :(

The IMO also has molasses tracking speed – I've got the mouse acceleration one notch from maximum just to be able to use it – do MS *ever* test their products? Ever? Though I've confirmed that this isn't what's causing the spurious move-on-mouseup/down events as it does that any any speed. I should be able to rule out custom software as it does this on XP's login desktop as well, though third-party software can actually corrupt the window system state sufficient to require a reboot.

With all the people who use the IMO (typically the white one – mine are the can't-buy-in-less-than-5-packs black variants) I can't believe that, on two separate PCs, I'm the only person where it's bug-ridden garbage. I must have done something wrong somewhere …

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sat, 16 June 2012, 14:57:08

Hm ... Steelseries Kana (http://steelseries.com/products/mice/steelseries-kana) has the buttons on each side the way I need them …

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: NuFon on Sun, 17 June 2012, 08:32:43

The Steelseries Kana got TTC switches, that are horrifying to use. They are the same switches you will find in a 10 $ mouse. The sensor aint really flawless either, but it gets better if you download the software. The Spawn is a great mouse and so is the G400 or Deathadder.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Battou62 on Sun, 17 June 2012, 13:52:29

It has always bothered me why no one has made a high quality intelimouse clone. With a high quality prediction free laser it could be very popular.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: NuFon on Sun, 17 June 2012, 14:15:51

No, an optical Intellimouse would be much more succesful, the very popular Philips Twin Eye sensor has accel. The mouse would be much better off using an Avago 3090 or 3050.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: sawedust on Sun, 17 June 2012, 14:54:36

Quote from: Battou62;615597

It has always bothered me why no one has made a high quality intelimouse clone. With a high quality prediction free laser it could be very popular.

Until they make a laser sensor that doesn't have prediction OR a Z-axis issue, optical mice does and will always have superior tracking.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sun, 17 June 2012, 15:01:19

So, to get buttons 4 and 5 on either side (Back on the left, Forward on the right) instead of both on the left side, what would you recommend?

(Annoyingly, I bought the IntelliMouse Optical on recommendation, so those are some more people who don't experience or notice the bugs in it :)

And preferably something that doesn't look cheesy! (The Kana with the light-up wheel is pure cheese)

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: NuFon on Mon, 18 June 2012, 04:37:08

The Kana and the Roccat Pyra are the only ones I know of that has one button on each side, except for the 1.1. You could also buy a mouse that has 2 buttons on each side and then edit them in the software.
EDIT: The kana and pyra both have the same sensor

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 18 June 2012, 09:47:20

I saw the Roccat – never heard of them before, though their website looks impressive.

Having duplicate buttons 4 and 5 on each side could work. However, I mentioned the Kana and you say that it's terrible, so that's why I'm trying to find something that doesn't suck.

Unfortunately I still find zero evidence that there is anything wrong with the IntelliMouse Optical. I've never even seen criticisms for its cheap and tacky looks, let alone phantom events.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: NuFon on Mon, 18 June 2012, 11:38:05

It's not terrible, I actually considered buying one myself and swap the lousy feet and microswitches. The Pyra is not really a popular mouse since it's a really low end mouse and people only go after massive DPI and LEDs. What mousepad are you using? Might be a tracking flaw caused by the surface.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 18 June 2012, 11:54:53

It doesn't track properly on my new desk, but the phantom move events are nothing to do with tracking. I get the stray mouse move events not just when I have the mouse completely steady, but also when the mouse is in the air where it can't track. The stray wheel rotations are nothing to do with tracking either.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 18 June 2012, 13:03:15

Right. I have connected the StupidoMouse Optical to a brand new Windows 7 64-bit Dell OptiPlex 390, and I still see the problem: on mouseup/down events (in this case, just clicking) the cursor often jumps slightly in the rough direction that the cursor last moved.

Basically Microsoft don't know how to make a mouse.

As such, I should be safe with another brand so long as it doesn't have similarly rubbish circuitry. I don't do the whole open-packaging-and-return thing so this all makes me very nervous.

Currently posting this sans mouse :) Or, I would do if I could tab out of the text box … WTF vBulletin? This site (oh the irony) doesn't work with just a keyboard.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: NuFon on Mon, 18 June 2012, 13:37:21

Can you be the only person that actually got a fake intellimouse? Thought those things were so mass produced that it was actually impossible to get a fake one, never heard about this bug. :P

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 18 June 2012, 13:46:22

It's possible I guess, but there were no signs that it was anything besides a genuine 5-pack of IntelliMouse optical mice in a proper Microsoft product box.

The Basic Optical next to me says "v2.1" on it, but the IntelliMouse doesn't give a version number, though it does have a hologram on it. From what I understand, v1.0 comes in packs of three, and v1.1 in packs of 5, which is what I got. Otherwise, everything seems perfectly legit.

Edit: Don't forget that I got stray wheel events with an old IntelliMouse classic; Firefox bug 189474 (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189474) was opened about this and for the most part, everyone affected has a Microsoft wheel mouse. I don't get this same bug with the IMO, but I get different stray wheel events with it.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: NuFon on Mon, 18 June 2012, 14:17:56

I have no idea how to fix that ^^ If I were you I would've gotten myself a new mouse, preferably a avago 3090(88) mouse, but for you maybe the Kana or Pyra. Maybe the other alternative I gave you aswell. :)

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Mon, 18 June 2012, 14:50:05

I would recommend a Mionix Naos 3200 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CF8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mionix.net%2Fpage.php%3Fal%3Dnaos3200&ei=94TfT5ftMoye8QSB1rnECg&usg=AFQjCNGbOwOWbSk9LIBirj8WiFn5ZwJ_1w&sig2=XPseQc1-sv05SCp-3LUZuQ). Standard 5 buttons, no funny business. The software lets you adjust the DPI down to a reasonable level, as well as turn off the annoying LED logos.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71WJUq2ZOpL._AA1500_.jpg)


The CM Storm Spawn is also good, though the styling is dreadful (gaming equipment usually is). I know you want thumb buttons on each side, but there aren't too many mice like that. It might be worth actually buying another Intellimouse 1.1 - they're really quite nice, though you have to ditch the intelipoint software.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 18 June 2012, 17:36:31

Quote from: NuFon;616385

I have no idea how to fix that ^^ If I were you I would've gotten myself a new mouse, preferably a avago 3090(88) mouse, but for you maybe the Kana or Pyra. Maybe the other alternative I gave you aswell. :)

This was my new mouse. I was using a black Dell-branded IntelliMouse before, and that worked reasonably well, but it wasn't quite right. Microsoft mice, I've learnt, are as buggy as the rest of their products. At work, I was using a Dell mouse, and that worked perfectly. My only gripe was that the wheel was too slippery for summer weather and sweaty fingers; the actual make-the-cursor-move-and-click-things bit was flawless. Microsoft mice have much grippier wheels, but I've never proven this as we haven't had a hot summer in England since I bought it :)

I'm trying to avoid accumulating piles of stupid mice that also don't work – with all the lunatic tracking speeds (typically supersonic, but snailspace in the case of the IMO), weird rubbish like integrated LCDs, and untested arrangements like double side buttons, there's nothing that says "I'm an obedient little mouse that will just work and work and work forever".

Quote from: Daniel Beaver;616404

I know you want thumb buttons on each side, but there aren't too many mice like that. It might be worth actually buying another Intellimouse 1.1 - they're really quite nice, though you have to ditch the intelipoint software.

With a claw grip, or mine at least, the second of the two side buttons is out of reach. That button arrangement is just not useful to me, since I use both side buttons frequently. I guess most people must use a palm grip, and even then (just holding my Logitech to see which buttons I can reach) I can find that the other button is then out of reach as I can't pull my thumb back over it. I really do want buttons on each side. The IMO layout is really decent, and I've worn away all the sharp edges in the mouldings now …

I don't use IntelliPoint – this is an actual hardware fault with the mouse itself. The brand new PC I tested it on earlier didn't have IntelliPoint on either, but still had the phantom cursor movements.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: NuFon on Tue, 19 June 2012, 09:43:41

List of mice to test out for you ( I guess ): Avago 3090(88) mice: Logitech G400, Razer Deathadder, Razer Abyssus, Cm Storm Spawn, Roccat Savu, Zowie AM, Zowie EC.
1 button on each side mice: 1.1, Roccat Pyra, Steelseries Kana.

Title: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 19 June 2012, 14:17:17

Part of it comes down to how much I trust Roccat's drivers not to go wrong. I mean, Microsoft can't even make a mouse that moves the cursor properly, so the odds of the drivers being buggy and broken are high, and when you factor in the way my PC is set up, almost guaranteed.

The Roccat Kova is no advantage over the Kova+, as by default the Kova maps buttons 4 and 5 normally, and 6 and 7 specially instead of having duplicate left and right 4 and 5.

But lo … the driver screenshot for the Kova+ implies that it's tilt-wheel, but that's not in the spec anywhere, so now I have to wonder which of the others are.

The Kova+ advantages are the pretty lights (first mouse I've ever seen to do it right, has a nice Star Trek look to it), and honestly having more buttons doesn't hurt, because I want to have something like this on my PC, and I'm out of mouse buttons:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]53270[/ATTACH]

The Pyro has this weird Easy-Shift nonsense that means that out of the box, buttons 4 and 5 are not Back and Forward and it relies on drivers just to get normal behaviour, so in terms of driverless there's no winning here. However, I can see their point about how Easy-Shift gives you loads more controls ...

Unh.

I've never heard of Roccat before, but they win by far in terms of style (Steelseries products look really cheap and cheesy), and they've put a lot of thought and effort into the functionality, so I suspect that's where I'm headed.

Title: Re: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: ranviper on Thu, 19 July 2012, 09:20:22

Most steelseries mice have that same shape and feel to them as the Intellimouse. The Xai felt great,except for it's sensor -.- But the Sensei looks to be what the Xai should have been. Perhaps try one out? Or the Sensei raw when it comes out, if you don't like the whole metal thing.

Title: Re: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Thu, 19 July 2012, 17:07:30

I honestly just wish that people would confirm that the IntelliMouse Optical is rubbish and broken, so that I'd have some comfort that any other mouse should at least manage to move the cursor and click without too much difficulty. However, since two different people recommended it to me, I guess that I'm simply possessed or something and any expensive mice would just screw up in some other fashion.

Title: Re: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: swagpiratex on Wed, 22 August 2012, 19:31:19

I'm currently using an Intellimouse, and it's great. I wish I had another one. But they don't make it anymore.

Just bite the bullet and get something that'll make you happy, lol.

Title: Re: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 22 August 2012, 19:38:32

I don't know what will make me happy if my bug aura creates defects in apparently perfectly good mice ...

I have a spare IMO 1.1 (unused) that I could sell at an extortionate rate ;-)

Title: Re: Replacement for the 5-button IntelliMouse Optical?
Post by: swagpiratex on Thu, 23 August 2012, 01:03:11

Lol, gonna have to pass. The 1.1 is too large and heavy for my grip, but thanks for the offer :)

I would have told you what the Roccat felt like if they had any open box displays at my local electronic stores. But the lack of open box displays could mean that the people that ended up buying them didn't feel like returning them  :))