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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: itlnstln on Tue, 19 May 2009, 12:55:02

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 19 May 2009, 12:55:02

I have wired my whole house (home theater, networking, etc.) from Monoprice.  They are a great company.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: Mercen_505 on Tue, 19 May 2009, 13:40:43

I used BuyExtras (http://www.buyextras.com/caau.html) when I wired up my home theater last year. Same type of site. Always good to know about these establishments :)

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: Hak Foo on Tue, 19 May 2009, 20:09:03

I've done okay with Eforcity-- they seem to do a lot of "This cable, today only, $2 if you can get one" loss-leaders, and I was fairly satisfied with the PS2->S-Video cable I got from them at 6.00 delivered.

The basic take-home is that "shopping around for cables is a good thing", even more than "Monoprice is good" which also seems true.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: huha on Tue, 19 May 2009, 20:19:18

Never, ever buy cables from a retail store.
They take loads and loads of cash for something completely mundane like copper wires, but they get away with it; it's the fastest way to get a cable, so if you desperately need one, you will pay the price for sure, even if it's totally outrageous.
Cables have an incredibly high markup of several 100%, often several 1000%; basically, they're copper with insulation and shielding. There are differences between cables, but they mostly matter only for high-frequency applications or longer distances. Audio cables, for the most part, are dirt cheap if you buy what you actually need. No matter how fancy a description an audio cable has, ultimately, audio frequencies are too low to suffer from significant losses due to cabling used (given it does have enough cross section to pass the current required). You might as well just use a coat hanger ;)

-huha

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: D-EJ915 on Tue, 19 May 2009, 21:15:01

They pack **** [in the box] tighter than anything but their prices are killer.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: neptunebadger on Wed, 20 May 2009, 04:43:49

I have had nothing but good experiences with Monoprice. Retail stores will try to rip people off on cables when they're selling them an expensive TV. They'll try to tell you that you may as well get this $129.99 HDMI Monster Cable if you're going to be investing in such a nice new HDTV. Monster will try to convince you that there is a difference, but I don't understand how cable quality makes a difference when dealing with a purely digital signal. As long as the cable transmits the data properly, what else does it need to do?

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: IBI on Wed, 20 May 2009, 08:54:45

Quote from: neptunebadger;91723

I don't understand how cable quality makes a difference when dealing with a purely digital signal. As long as the cable transmits the data properly, what else does it need to do?

Nothing, if it transmits the data properly. Higher quality cables will be better regarding interferance though (which is a lot less tolerable with HDMI) It is a waste of money for most people for short lengths.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: Idiot_Hacker on Wed, 20 May 2009, 22:09:22

High quality cables are only really needed for analog signals and that is stretching it.  If a cable is so poor it can't even transfer digital signals, 1s and 0s, then that is one mighty cheap low low quality cable.  I don't see how any cable made of copper can degrade digital signals to the point where the signal is corrupted and unrecognizable to the gear receiving the signal.  Monoprice is the best.  One can also try firefold.com as well as the other ones mentioned in this thread.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: IBI on Thu, 21 May 2009, 07:51:43

Quote from: Idiot_Hacker;91861

I don't see how any cable made of copper can degrade digital signals to the point where the signal is corrupted and unrecognizable to the gear receiving the signal.

Why do you think 3Gbps SATA cables only have a maximum length of 2m while 100Mbps Ethernet cables can be 100m?

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: keyb_gr on Thu, 21 May 2009, 07:52:57

Quote from: Idiot_Hacker;91861

I don't see how any cable made of copper can degrade digital signals to the point where the signal is corrupted and unrecognizable to the gear receiving the signal.

Try getting, say, an AC-3 stream across like 5 m of cheapo audio RCA cabling (the kind of stuff you get with components for free) -- you might be surprised. An S/PDIF signal is similar in bandwidth to composite video and not that much less fussy.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: ironcoder on Thu, 21 May 2009, 07:59:48

Quote from: IBI;91884

Why do you think 3Gbps SATA cables only have a maximum length of 2m while 100Mbps Ethernet cables can be 100m?

If I had to guess I would say because that's a design limitation of SATA controller cards per spec while if you had to live with a 2m Ethernet cable everybody would be using wireless. You need a pretty big-ass case to need more than 2m of SATA cable ;)

All things being equal (which they almost never are) you need a lot more bandwidth to carry data at 3Gb/s than you do 100Mb/s and with a thin cable like they spec'd for SATA II there are going to be some definite distance limitations using copper.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 21 May 2009, 09:47:46

Quote from: ripster;91893

I always look at the gauge of the cable before I buy. Monoprice is clear about what you're buying, often Monster is not.
 
Unless I'm pulling it through the wall or my wife will freak I do get the biggest possible. I also do like to see good (full) shielding on cables when I'm splicing them myself. Canare for example is nice wire for DIY.
 
I have one monoprice 50 foot DVI cable (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10209&cs_id=1020901&p_id=2185&seq=1&format=1#largeimage) that is so thick (like a US Quarter in diameter) I felt like I was laying transatlantic telegraph wire when I ran it from my basement wiring closed to my Living Room media pc. Works flawlessly.

 
I have the 50' HDMI cable for my projector.  You're right.  It looks a lot like telegraph wire.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: huha on Thu, 21 May 2009, 10:46:45

Quote from: Idiot_Hacker;91861

High quality cables are only really needed for analog signals and that is stretching it.

It depends on what kind of analog signal you want to transfer. Video can be picky and high-frequency analog signals require all kinds of interesting cable modifications to still offer acceptable signal quality.
Audio, on the other hand, is almost DC in terms of frequency. CDs use sampling rates of 44100 Hz, so according to Nyquist's and Shannon's theorem, you'll be able to encode signals up to 22.5 kHz. At 22.5 kHz, most high-frequency effects are negligible.

Quote

If a cable is so poor it can't even transfer digital signals, 1s and 0s, then that is one mighty cheap low low quality cable.

Digital signals, on the other hand, require much more bandwidth to transmit than analoge signals, especially if you're sending them over one wire serially. Most cables are spec'd to include some headroom, but you'll occasionally find ones that don't. This doesn't mean digital cables need to be stupidly expensive; depending on technology used, the protocol allows for error correction, so a cable has to be quite bad to actually produce errors, but: Analog audio over several meters of coat hangers: No problem. Digital audio over the same coat hanger wire: Could be problematic.
Digital cabling does require some thought during design and specification, so as to avoid getting undesired effects, but one properly made digital cable is almost always as well as the other.

Quote

I don't see how any cable made of copper can degrade digital signals to the point where the signal is corrupted and unrecognizable to the gear receiving the signal.

Oh, that's quite easy. Parallel wires can induce currents in each other, thus messing up the signal. Capacitance can "mush" the signal, rendering it worse and worse; external interference can completely destroy the signal depending on transmission method used etc.

Most modern systems use Low Voltage Differential Signalling for transmission, which is quite robust concerning external interference; when used for short distances (e.g. SATA), only basic encoding schemes (i.e. 8b/10b) are employed (which can detect, but not correct errors; but this does save valuable bandwidth--transmission errors shouldn't occur, so if one occurs, it's better to just retransmit the packet than to use encoding schemes allowing for error correction); when used over long distances, where errors are to be expected, fancier encoding schemes are usually employed sacrificing bandwidth for the ability to correct data on-the-fly.

Quote from: ironcoder;91888

All things being equal (which they almost never are) you need a lot more bandwidth to carry data at 3Gb/s than you do 100Mb/s and with a thin cable like they spec'd for SATA II there are going to be some definite distance limitations using copper.

With digital high-frequency signals produced by current equipment, it's not wire resistance that messes up the signal (voltages are quite low to begin with and through use of clever techniques like LVDS, they don't even need to be high), but other properties. Putting thicker wires in a SATA cable won't help achieve a working ten meter long version ;)

Quote from: ripster;91893

I always look at the gauge of the cable before I buy.  Monoprice is clear about what you're buying, often Monster is not.

 Unless I'm pulling it through the wall or my wife will freak I do get the biggest possible.   I also do like to see good (full) shielding on cables when I'm splicing them myself.  Canare for example is nice wire for DIY.

I have one monoprice 50 foot DVI cable (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10209&cs_id=1020901&p_id=2185&seq=1&format=1#largeimage) that is so thick (like a US Quarter in diameter) I felt like I was laying transatlantic telegraph wire when I ran it from my basement wiring closed to my Living Room media pc.  Works flawlessly.

Gauge is not everything. Digital cables usually don't need to be very thick, correct twisting and shielding is much more important. You can't achieve correct shielding without having a somewhat thicker cable, however. Thick cables wont guarantee good signal quality, but very thin and flexible cables sold for cheap will almost be safe to fail. (That's why thin and flexible cables are so horribly expensive--they require much better materials and techniques to produce to still deliver the required bandwidth)

-huha

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 21 May 2009, 12:26:44

Quote from: ripster;91917

It's NOT wife approved.

It's not GeekGirl approved, either.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 21 May 2009, 12:30:01

I don't know how your viewing area is setup, but is it too hard to run the wires through the wall?  I have surround jacks in the living room to run the wires behind the couch so they're unseen.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: cb951303 on Sun, 24 May 2009, 04:25:01

when it comes to speaker or interconnect audio cables, I do my own. Here is a *fantastic* one http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Low-Inductance-DIY-Speaker-Cables/

Check the comparison table at the bottom of the page...

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: cb951303 on Sun, 24 May 2009, 12:55:38

Quote from: ripster;92437

P.S.  This wasn't you  by any chance?

Boy, I'd like that laser!  Even Norm doesn't have one of those.

Nope :) I would like that too.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 28 May 2009, 13:00:25

Quote from: ripster;93134

NEW HDMI specification 1.4 (http://www.avguide.com/blog/new-hdmi-14-specifications). New connector. New cables. Stupid HDMI.

And nothing that uses it.  Hell, nothing really even fully utilizes 1.3a.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: IBI on Thu, 28 May 2009, 13:20:38

Quote from: ripster;93134

NEW HDMI specification 1.4 (http://www.avguide.com/blog/new-hdmi-14-specifications).  New connector.  New cables.  Stupid HDMI.

Actually, a new connector and cables would have been a good thing since HDMI is already a bit of a kludge. These are just additional bits.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 28 May 2009, 13:26:16

Quote from: ripster;93149

Mine keep falling off my TV when my dog tromps back there. Why these engineers spend so much time on the electrical and can't design a decent connector.
 
Exhibit 1: SATA. For a while I got good at gluing broken Hard Drive tabs.

Other than throughput and audio, DVI was a much better connector.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 28 May 2009, 13:37:33

Quote from: ripster;93152

Yeah, although I've ripped out a few of those screws in my time too.

You must like it rough.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: cchan on Thu, 28 May 2009, 16:13:03

which would you rather have, a pulled-out cable (HDMI), or thousands of dollars of equipment crashing to the floor dragged by its cable (DVI or VGA, or anything that screws in)?
I work with motile robots. (none of the sessile industrial installations; my arena is FIRST Robotics competition (http://usfirst.org/community/frc/).) A few years back, tether cables were regular 9-pin serial cables. We cabled the robot to the PC (screwed the cables in) to download new firmware, and it started moving. Away from the PC. The cable and screws held up and dragged the PC off the countertop. I believe the only casualty was the motherboard serial port and a few dents on the case. If it were a laptop, though, it would have crashed to the floor and broken the screen at the bare minimum.

This is why I hardly ever screw cables in, unless I'm sure they are safe and not going to drag any equipment to the floor. The mild annoyance of having to replug a cable far outweighs the catastrophic loss of thousands of dollars of kit.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 28 May 2009, 16:36:25

Quote from: cchan;93175

which would you rather have, a pulled-out cable (HDMI), or thousands of dollars of equipment crashing to the floor dragged by its cable (DVI or VGA, or anything that screws in)?
I work with motile robots. (none of the sessile industrial installations; my arena is FIRST Robotics competition (http://usfirst.org/community/frc/).) A few years back, tether cables were regular 9-pin serial cables. We cabled the robot to the PC (screwed the cables in) to download new firmware, and it started moving. Away from the PC. The cable and screws held up and dragged the PC off the countertop. I believe the only casualty was the motherboard serial port and a few dents on the case. If it were a laptop, though, it would have crashed to the floor and broken the screen at the bare minimum.
 
This is why I hardly ever screw cables in, unless I'm sure they are safe and not going to drag any equipment to the floor. The mild annoyance of having to replug a cable far outweighs the catastrophic loss of thousands of dollars of kit.

I'll agree with that.  That, and Ripster's problem of the dog trampling the cables.  HDMI cables have a bad tendency to fall out; however, as they are fairly heavy with a small connector. Some of my longer runs that use cables as thick as a penny, or so, used to fall out all the time.  USB does well as the connectors are several times bigger than the cables, usually, and they have a slightly better connector design.  I don't have dogs, little kids, moving equipment, etc., so it's not as big a deal for me.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: cchan on Thu, 28 May 2009, 19:26:39

FRC definitely gets pretty intense. I love it though because of the spirit of coopetition - if any team needs spare parts in the pit there's always a friendly neighbouring team ready to lend a wrench or a bolt or an Ethernet cable.

itlnstln, I will agree with you though about the HDMI cables. heavy cables + small insecure connector = fallout prone. Though considering the equipment they are most often attached to, that could be a good thing given the alternative.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: phillip on Mon, 07 March 2011, 19:19:46

Monoprice is the ****...those are the same banana plugs I use with my monoprice 12ga cable :)

If the plugs start to get loose you can just tap em on the nose a bit with a mallet or something.

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: phillip on Mon, 07 March 2011, 19:58:59

Quote from: ripster;307264

I just stick a flat head screwdriver in and torque it a bit.

You walk around with a mallet Gogo Yubari style?

Show Image

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zoh_LjrqJ2E/TNLW9iwndHI/AAAAAAAAARg/mzfR-XA0mIA/s400/73827_457929282862_506737862_5298706_4923729_n.jpg)

wat

(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7512/noseg.png)

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: keyboardlover on Mon, 07 March 2011, 20:16:59

MSPaint FTW!

Title: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: cbf123 on Fri, 02 December 2011, 13:42:48

Quote from: ripster;93149

Mine keep falling off my TV when my dog tromps back there.

Get some of the skinny short little male/female cables from Monoprice.  They're more flexible than the big fat cables so they're less likely to fall off.  Also, it means the big fat cable is less likely to get damaged and require re-pulling.

Title: Re: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: dr_patt on Thu, 28 March 2013, 00:44:56

Monoprice are really good if you are in the US or Canada. I live in Australia and the shipping to here from the US is quite expensive. If you live down under I would recommend ProAudioVisual. They have a great range of AV cables and the prices are really good. They are currently selling a short length of HDMI cable (http://www.proaudiovisual.com.au) for around $4. From what I can tell they seem to have the best prices in Oz.

Title: Re: In Praise Of Monoprice
Post by: calavera on Thu, 28 March 2013, 01:22:31

I buy all my bulk cables from monoprice. They're super cheap and usually have what I'm looking for in all lengths