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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: skriefal on Mon, 29 June 2009, 21:02:50

Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: skriefal on Mon, 29 June 2009, 21:02:50
They certainly don't seem to be double-shot molded.  I'm guessing that IBM used a dye impregnation process.  Whatever it is, the keys seem to hold up to use very well...
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 29 June 2009, 21:31:35
i'd be Ok to cut an extra key if someone would tell me what we're trying to find out?
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: huha on Mon, 29 June 2009, 21:49:29
Isn't there already some information available on IBM's keycap printing process? (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_sublimation_print.htm)

-huha
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: sandy55 on Wed, 01 July 2009, 09:26:22
I'm 100% sure that caps of IBM Model M/F are dye sublimation, not double shot molded.
See inner side of caps and you see it's not double shot molded.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 01 July 2009, 09:34:28
Quote from: ripster;100457
Too bad though, those Double Shot keys on my Selectric are beautiful things to Behold!! Better than Veronica Belmont. Well, maybe not.

I'll pass on an obvious dirty remark here.
 
Tempting, so tempting.
 
I'm 30.  I need to be more mature than that.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: o2dazone on Wed, 01 July 2009, 09:35:22
Quote from: itlnstln;100458

I'm 30.  I need to be more mature than that.


says who
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 01 July 2009, 09:37:29
Quote from: o2dazone;100459
says who

DON'T TEMPT ME!
 
Must think pure thoughts.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 01 July 2009, 12:39:12
Quote

I'm 30. I need to be more mature than that.


Maturity is a state of mind. Feel free to be a dirty, filthy, vile bastard... like me :)
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: microsoft windows on Thu, 02 July 2009, 20:19:36
Has someone cut up a key-cap yet? I wish I could to find out but I'm already two short...
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 03 July 2009, 07:12:53
I posted some macro shots of various Cherry keycaps over here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6437&page=2).
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 03 July 2009, 11:44:34
I have also noticed differences between Unicomp keycaps and IBM/Lexmark keycaps. With IBM and Lexmark, the Alt keys and the System Request function were printed in green, and the functions on the numpad were printed in brown. However, I believe this was eliminated by the time Unicomp bought the clicky keyboard design. Maybe the letters/functions on the keycaps were also applied differently. Due to those variations, would you be able to tell some information on the keycap you chop up (like Unicomp vs IBM, etc.)?
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 03 July 2009, 15:40:18
I'd guess dye sublimation is more practical for those multi-colored keys. Plus I don't remember anyone complaining about the lettering wearing off, so in the end, who cares (Geekhack folks excepted)?

An extra article on keycaps - why not. I already have a quick rundown of common labeling methods and some other stuff in "Basics on keyboard internals".
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 03 July 2009, 17:07:21
The Model M keycaps may be too thin for double shot casting.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: huha on Sat, 04 July 2009, 06:45:50
Quote from: ripster;100955
I'll cut up one.  I asked Ricercar to toss in an extra from his batch.  I'm certain it'll look like the dye goes down a few microns.


No need to cut up one, the Japanese already did that (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_sublimation_print.htm).

-huha
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 04 July 2009, 07:25:17
I hate those cheesy keyboards with the letters that wear off so fast. The crappiest ones I ever used are those white Apple keyboards (I call them the Crapplekeys) and those newer black Dell keyboards. On the Dell's, the letters wore off VERY fast and the keys stuck on most after 3-4 years of use. I disassembled one to see why the keys stuck and it turned out that there was no steel plate reënforcing the keys and there were no metal brackets on ANY key except for the spacebars. I swear those pieces of **** weighed as much as one of those two-dimensional sixteenth-pounders McDonalds sells.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: keyb_gr on Sat, 04 July 2009, 11:11:06
Quote from: ripster;101049
Durable, sharp looking, good feeling, keys are worth the extra pennies.

Full ACK there.

Oh, and my IBM keytops don't look like they're two-shot molded, none of them. Could be they're really too thin for that.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: keyb_gr on Sat, 04 July 2009, 11:37:46
Quote from: ripster;101154
Dual shot doesn't seem to be perfect either.  Check the yellowing on this Space Cadet.  They look to be dual shot on top, surface lettered on front.

Seems like they used ABS plastic then. With these big keys, they could afford a bit more wear back then...
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: DesktopJinx on Wed, 08 July 2009, 11:59:17
Excellent work.

A double-shot mold process means a unique physical mold for each key, doesn't it? Considering the number of variations (locales and specializations) IBM had, and the ridiculous number of keyboards they built, a printing process makes a lot more sense than a molding process.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 08 July 2009, 13:19:34
Quote from: DesktopJinx;101745
Excellent work.
 
A double-shot mold process means a unique physical mold for each key, doesn't it? Considering the number of variations (locales and specializations) IBM had, and the ridiculous number of keyboards they built, a printing process makes a lot more sense than a molding process.

Perhaps.  That would be one way to do it.  I would think they have one mold for the overall key, and the "punch" the legend while the plastic is still a little soft.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: talis on Wed, 08 July 2009, 16:20:34
I would assume for double shot keys that there would be a separate, unique cavity for each key, but they would all be in the same tool.  That way they would be able to shoot a full set of keyboard keys in a single go.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: DesktopJinx on Wed, 08 July 2009, 18:08:35
Regardless of how you arrange them, injecting plastic to expose letter shapes will require unique tooling for each letter shape. If you're only making one nationality and one style of keyboard in large volume, you could justify the tool set... but support many languages and specialty keyboards and it quickly gets out of hand. How is such tooling made and managed? I have to think that the mastering and manufacturing process for thermostatic printing is less tooling-intensive, might even be like digital prepress, better suited to more flexible runs and product variations.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: o2dazone on Wed, 08 July 2009, 18:57:40
Quote from: ripster;101808
Don't  worry, this is for SCIENCE!

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3066&stc=1&d=1247093391)


No, no,  I'll do ANYTHING.  I'm a M, I SUBLIMATE!

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3067&stc=1&d=1247093399)


Odd - not seeing much from this angle - are these just surface printed?  Let's try this:

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3068&stc=1&d=1247093406)


Thats better.  I'm not sure how big a micron is but you can see the ink goes down a teensy little bit.  Would take a LONG TIME to wear away that lettering.

That was fun, I wanna chop up some more keys.


Yeah, but does it blend?
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 08 July 2009, 19:02:29
Quote from: ripster;101822
LOL - my wife is already wondering what kitchen implement I'll take down to the basement.

Maybe the Logitech.

So...you do have another 'M' key, right?
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: alpslover on Fri, 10 July 2009, 10:06:52
Quote from: ripster;101808

Thats better.  I'm not sure how big a micron is but you can see the ink goes down a teensy little bit.  Would take a LONG TIME to wear away that lettering.


nice pics.  a micron is a thousandth of a millimeter.  rough ballpark, the dye is inseminated at least a good 50 microns.

i don't think i've ever seen an m with lettering worn from normal use.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 10 July 2009, 14:25:56
Quote from: ripster;101986
It happens.  Click pic for details.

Show Image
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_jyrFylMyCUQ/R-zM0e1eGOI/AAAAAAAABJY/RQ3pCREDGpM/s1280/keyboard1.jpg)
[Link] (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.craphound.com/images/meltedboard.jpg&imgrefurl=http://boingboing.net/2008/03/28/medical-transcriptio.html&usg=__vSO-4Me99nUPImK_7ni2HxgnXR8=&h=409&w=500&sz=21&hl=en&start=2&sig2=T4syfmQqZhBwhfBMOb88dA&um=1&tbnid=1qD7U-prbP2qZM:&tbnh=106&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhospital%2Bkeyboard%2Bworn%2Bkeys%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=0XRXSu76HJCCmQfDlMm0AQ)

Pic no workee, so I put some text there.
Quote
Not an M but 50 microns isn't THAT much.
Depends on the material... This transcriptionist's NMB seems to use bog standard ABS, for the M it should be PBT or something comparable, tough stuff in any case.
Metal keys ftw. :D

EDIT: Oh btw, I see that I have a lot of keycap stuff in the Basics on Keyboard Internals wiki now. Might be worth moving to a dedicated article after all...
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 10 July 2009, 18:31:05
Quote from: ripster;102040
I think so.  Other than some hard to translate Asian sites there's not much info out there on keys.

If you get it started I have LOTS of IBM/Filco/Unicomp pics already uploaded to the forum - you or I can just link to them and use as illustrations to your text.  You seem to have quite a few Cherry pics yourself.

Someone should figure out what font the Cherry keyboards use.

Cherry brand keyboards, or keyboards with Cherry switches?
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: cchan on Sat, 11 July 2009, 10:03:59
Filco doesn't use italic Arial... Filco lowercase a's don't have the horizontal stroke above the loop like arial italic does. Filco looks more like Century Gothic italic.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: keyb_gr on Sat, 11 July 2009, 16:17:04
Quote from: ripster;102089
I'm a little suspicious about Logitech. My $9.99 special.  Ugh, that "decal" look.
 
Sure wears well though.  My son banged them up for years and the WASD letters are shiny but lettering perfect.

I'd guess the "decal" is some wear-resistant coating over the lettering then. One could also extend it over the whole keytop but probably not in a $9.99 board.
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: timw4mail on Mon, 27 July 2009, 21:30:39
Does the NeXT keyboard even have mechanical switches?
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: JBert on Tue, 28 July 2009, 12:39:00
These close-up pictures made me look at my IBM (likely Lexmark) KB-8923 because the windows-keys have the same blurry/grey appearance. I'm not sure, but it seems as if some keys on these keyboards are dyed (mostly characters and number rows) whereas some rarely-used keys seem to be laser etched.

Maybe this one was built during a process change? (Can't add pictures right now, I don't have a camera available ATM.)
Title: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded?
Post by: keyb_gr on Tue, 28 July 2009, 13:02:09
Quote from: JBert;105065
These close-up pictures made me look at my IBM (likely Lexmark) KB-8923 because the windows-keys have the same blurry/grey appearance. I'm not sure, but it seems as if some keys on these keyboards are dyed (mostly characters and number rows) whereas some rarely-used keys seem to be laser etched.

Maybe this one was built during a process change? (Can't add pictures right now, I don't have a camera available ATM.)

Possibly similar to the lettering on this one (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6638).