Speculations??
The sound I think is a combo of spring snap against key and well, and the foot snap adding a certain amount as well - as much as 50/50.
but how to explain it? where the hell is the click coming from? from a combination of all these things? (hammer, barrel, bottoming/topping of stem, etc)?
It's also worth noting that when I pressed the key while the assembly was resting on the desk and the book, it sounded pretty much identical to how it would normally sound inside the keyboard. That's not to say that the surface has no impact on sound and feel, just that it's going to be pretty much constant as long as it's resting on a firm surface
Ripster, there's one more thing you could try, although the setup would be harder with the shorter hammers on the Model M - try and recreate my hammer noise experiment (ie. rest the pivoting part of the hammer on a firm surface but make sure the hammer doesn't actually hit anything when it snaps down)
ch_123's thesis
in other words, I think, the spring makes the click no matter whether or not there is any plastic near, around, above, below, or beside it.
I did that exact experiment here (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=101947&postcount=31) and came up with the same results.
I held the hammer stationary while I actuated the key with my other hand. The click was almost exactly the same as when the board was together. When I put the board down on my desk, and held the hammer in place with a screwdriver it sounded exactly like it does when fully assembled.
So my conclusions are :
1) The sound comes almost entirely from the spring, key stem, and key cap
Please tell me the irony/self-deprecation wasn't lost on you? =P
I think the sound it makes on the way down would be affected by it hitting, or not hitting something as it buckles out.
Ah very good, so it's consistent across the two main variants of buckling spring. I'd agree with your remark on resonance, there's definitely some echo going on when it's assembled inside the keyboard, but like you, I found it made the same type of noise when the hammer didnt hit anything.
hey, this is serious work we're doing! ;-D
"affected" yes, but not eliminated, right? In other words, even without plastic, it clicks when pressed down, maybe just not as loudly, right?
No. It makes some sproingy noises with no plastic around it but no click if I just buckle a spring holding a spring/hammer in my hand.
Once again. Take apart a Bic pen. Buckle spring. No click. None.
Once again. Take apart a Bic pen. Buckle spring. No click. None.Maybe no clicks, but "ping" it will. Heck, ever seen one of those fake mikes kids play with which keep on reverbing shortly after you stopped singing in them? They have one big coil spring inside.
And it doesn't make any sense that springs alone would cause clicks - that's easy to test by taking apart a Bic pen.
Anyway, the bad news is there's no easy way to silence a Buckling Spring.
Also, lightening it will be tough as well. I assume IBM did all these tests earlier.
No. It makes some sproingy noises with no plastic around it but no click if I just buckle a spring holding a spring/hammer in my hand.
Anyway, the bad news is there's no easy way to silence a Buckling Spring.
Also, lightening it will be tough as well. I assume IBM did all these tests earlier.
Not until my depression over not creating a silent Buckling Spring ebbs... I saw myself hustling to Washington DC to renew that patent!
wow, consensus! does that mean the mystery is solved? all three components (spring, hammer, barrel) probably contribute some amount to produce the final click?
QUOTE]
No one has been yet been able to adequately explain the reason why the Model F and PC AT key presses are so different from Model M key presses.
I've read many theories but I don't believe I've seen consensus on the reason for the differences. Both use buckling springs but from what I've read, the difference in sound and feel can't be explained by capacitive contact vs. membrane.
I did the same test you did by just sticking the edge of steel ruler on the edge of the hammer while in the well and leaving the foot touching just air.
No one has been yet been able to adequately explain the reason why the Model F and PC AT key presses are so different from Model M key presses.
I've read many theories but I don't believe I've seen consensus on the reason for the differences. Both use buckling springs but from what I've read, the difference in sound and feel can't be explained by capacitive contact vs. membrane.
No one has been yet been able to adequately explain the reason why the Model F and PC AT key presses are so different from Model M key presses.
I've read many theories but I don't believe I've seen consensus on the reason for the differences. Both use buckling springs but from what I've read, the difference in sound and feel can't be explained by capacitive contact vs. membrane.
Makes me wonder who the lead engineer on this was? Did he lock himself in a room with a bucket of springs for days?
Supposedly it's the springs, but I'm not completely sure that's the only reason.
Seriously. Or was this invented by some happy accident? Its an almost impossible system of "controlled instability" and very subtle tuning. Hard to imagine it being designed from the ground up.
The problem is, there's nothing else that could explain it. Anything else would be so obscure that it couldn't possibly have a serious effect. I think it makes sense that the length of the spring would explain the differences between the two.
I shouldn't say something about a keyboard I don't own but I do agree. The patent makes a fairly big deal about leverage. That big foot must have some serious leverage and really slap that PCB.
That big foot must have some serious leverage and really slap that PCB.
Go read my big post...
It's funny. People around here seem to have this attitude towards the hammer that if they believe in the hammer's importance enough that it will come true, and are prepared to ignore at least two peope who've shown that it really doesn't do all that much.
Think about this, your finger is acting down in a straight line on a keycap which in turn pushes down on a spring which is attached to a pivoting point that is fixed in place. How does a piece of plastic that hangs off the side make what you feel any more crisp?
I realize that it probably doesn't affect the feel that much, but the Model M feels mushier, and it hits a membrane, versus the Model F, which hits the PCB.
Show Image(http://itsourblog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/26/feet2.jpg)
Actually, I do feel a difference even on my wooden model when I push the key and hold the foot. Never underestimate the subtlety of the Buckling Spring! Plus, I assume there's something psychologically satisfying in hearing a foot slap. Might equate to crispness.
Longer springs on the F. By means of converse proof, by shortening the spring, Ripster made one of the keys on his keyboard stiffer. My guess is that because there is more spring to buckle, and more spring to buckle back, this leads to the lower actuation point, and greater bounceback.
That's weird... If the spring on the Model F is longer than that of a Model M, wouldn't a Model M spring be too short to fit into a Model F?
That's weird... If the spring on the Model F is longer than that of a Model M, wouldn't a Model M spring be too short to fit into a Model F?
I sent the keyboard to Unicomp for repair. They replaced the spring with a spring I presume they use in their current boards. The repaired F7 key once again buckles, but both the sound and feel are different from the all the other keys. The click is not as pronounced and it is a tad bit softer (quieter). It almost, but not exactly, like a Model M key!
I bet they just loved working on a Model F :suspicious:
I'm kind of suprised that they did repair it. From what I understand, the Model F is significantly harder to work with than the Model M, at least from a repair standpoint.
Anyway, the bad news is there's no easy way to silence a Buckling Spring.
Actually that is *good* news!
Well, they do feel different to me but when you try to measure a buckling spring they don't cooperate. I remember Huha posting some fancy graph and the points had quite a bit of variance.
The other factor is I think tightening up the keyboard with Bolts/Nuts probably makes the springs a tad stiffer. Just too many things going on here. Bizzarro.
adds to the mystique of the bs switch. Its kind of nice that such perfection is the result of such fine balance of chaotic and unstable forces. Its like its all held together with a wizard spell. ;)
Unicomp says they will repair any IBM keyboard for a flat fee of something like $30 or $35, I don't remember exactly.
Even this?
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=106113&postcount=28
LOL I guess he could put all the parts in a box and send it to them.
UNICOMP Receiving department:
What the @#% is this. Does this ripster person really think we are going to fix this! Oh well you know the policy we fix them all send it over to the repair techs.
UNICOMP Repair techs:
What the #$%# is this box of crap. Oh I see this ripster person at least left the label so we know what it should be. What the #$#% is the glob of plastic for? Heck if they have the Balls to send this in just send them a new one and be done with it. Hey whats this note say http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=108014 (tech gets on computer and enters the url). What the heck are these guys doing Oh my god look what he did to our board. Buy hey kinda of cool but hey we know all this stuff already. They don't deserve a new board where is that reject board we had laying around yesterday send him that one.
wow, consensus! does that mean the mystery is solved? all three components (spring, hammer, barrel) probably contribute some amount to produce the final click?
I mean, if we have consensus this should be a sticky thread. Or atleast linked in the ibm wiki. :)
the forum has been wrestling with this mystery without consensus for a loooong time.
Has all the makings of a grand Doctoral Thesis.
For yuks I'm going to PlastiDip a spring/hammer and see what happens
Christ, if this 'Cult of the Hammer' continues, I'm going to have to open up my Model F again... Knew I should have made videos the last time 8-)
For yuks I'm going to PlastiDip a spring/hammer and see what happensIf you do go ahead, try to vary the amount of the stuff.
5576-A01 Switch Sound (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwp6FOul2Z0)
How do I embed a youtube video here?
Oh, and the lens cover is sliding on the desk. And the fan added some wind noise. :frown: I hope you don't mind.
The Cult of The Hammer strikes again! Those are the IBM Japanese switches - they come individually.
Nice video. Boy that is one pingy keyboard though. It sounds like the spring sproing resonates with the metal plate.
I'll post PlastiDip results in a sec after taking some pics.
I think it's time to grab a hammer and start banging heads.
So, you and CH are arguing the hammer makes no sound??
So, that's like how your three posts were about the same point?
After following the "Plastidip your Keys thread" I remembered I had an unopened can of the stuff I was going to use for Birth Control
But the can wasn't long enough.
Unfortunately, it doesn't buckle like Welly anticipated
So, you and CH are arguing the hammer makes no sound??
in lowpo's video, its hard to say if its quieter because "hammer isnt hitting anything" or if its quieter because when held in the air between fingers there's no resonance.
my real interest is in getting the key force down
I did. That whole sloped thing was removed - first key in sound sample.
I think someone needs to play around with a Model F now. Would a Bigfoot Model F hammer fit in a Model M? - lots of room in the black plastic holders.
The idea that someone would do what you did to that Boscom to a Model F is somewhat horrifying.
Playing with springs is just a variation of the greased method - messes up the key feel.
I'd recommend these (http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-5640987-3178-C2-0-Keyboard-ASM_W0QQitemZ200256086957QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea03163ad&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50) as a suitable sacrifice. Probably as cheap as you're going to find any Model F style board these days. You could probably get it for like $20-25 with an offer, they've been around for a while and they have made no sale.
Here's one that Sandy dissected link[/URL. (http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/model_m_trivia.html#5640991)
I'm wondering - would it keep functioning if you only coated 3mm of spring, just above the point where the spring and the hammer meet as described in the AT&T "silenced buckling spring" patent? It might be an easier alternative compared to inserting urethane foam cylinders into each spring.
I dipped a spring in [PlastiDip]. Note on the hammer you can see the number 253. I thought it may be a datecode until I saw one labeled K1. Another mystery to file along with the PLT number.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3655&stc=1&d=1249751928)
My springy has been - uh - sheathed. The Catholic Church does not approve of this mod BTW. Unfortunately, it doesn't buckle like Welly anticipated.