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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: timw4mail on Fri, 06 November 2009, 10:24:43

Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 06 November 2009, 10:24:43
Apparently it has a USB inteefuiisu. (If I'm reading that katakana correctly)
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 06 November 2009, 10:33:52
Awww, no new HHKB. :-/
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 06 November 2009, 10:43:51
Well, HHKBs are made by PFU not Topre.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: MsKeyboard on Fri, 06 November 2009, 11:11:50
HHKB Lite is made by PFU / Fujitsu, but the Pro model is manufactured by Topre.  The manufacturers have noticed the following that the HHKB Pro has, and you should keep an eye open for a least one contender to enter the market in near future.

What does everyone think of the color choice on the laser etched keys?  Topre seems to be staying the course in the area of aesthetics.

Later..........
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 06 November 2009, 11:18:47
The Black M4-1 had a similar colour on the non-alphanumeric keys.

I wonder if another company is able to copy the HHKB layout, or whether copright/patent issues are coming into play.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 06 November 2009, 11:29:10
I like the subtle tone on the laser-etched keys.  It's easy to read but not in your face.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 06 November 2009, 11:39:47
Brown?  I would consider it more of a "spicy mustard."
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 06 November 2009, 11:59:39
Mmm... exactly.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 06 November 2009, 12:01:10
This is my favorite mustard.  It'll kick your ass:
 
(http://www.alescifoods.com/images/thumbnail/co208S.jpg)
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 06 November 2009, 12:16:21
I see some 5 1/4" minifloppies.  Nice walnut PC he has there, too.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 06 November 2009, 12:44:38
You'd figure the guy in the ad would have some kind of desk reference for programming, but all he has are fishing books.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 06 November 2009, 13:10:23
playing lego star wars, break to a keyboard forum, getting ready to discuss DIP switches... who/what have I become?
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 06 November 2009, 13:27:58
Quote from: ripster;130683
Check it. (http://www.diatec.co.jp/products/topre2009/)

This is the most interesting version.  All 30g with lasered keys.
Show Image
(http://www.diatec.co.jp/products/topre2009/to15.jpg)


30g keyboards from Topre have been on sale since 2003. In particular the 106S which you can still buy. All this really marks is the first time they are offering it in black plus adding the windows keys. You can also get the Dharma Tactical which I think looks better and is also a 30g board as well.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5561&stc=1&d=1257535437)

Oh and lets not forget my NISSHO board that is also uniform 30g board.

What I find interesting is that for the first time they are going to sell 55g boards outside of Korea. In the past if you wanted a 55g board the only place to get one was Korea now it looks like we can get them from Japan as well.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 06 November 2009, 15:10:49
That small space bar would drive me nuts. Do they make them with the normal-length space bars?
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 06 November 2009, 15:13:30
No, they're only in the Japanese layout.  That is, unless Elitekeyboards requests some in a US layout, but I don't know if he would be able to.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 06 November 2009, 15:17:50
Are we the only non-Japanese keyboard fanatics?
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 06 November 2009, 15:20:10
No, KBMania represents the Korean crowd.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 06 November 2009, 15:47:25
Quote from: ripster;130727
How does the 30g feel versus the others?


very light :) but not as bad as I expected. When I first heard of the 30g boards I thought that there would be no way I could use one. But I have to admit now that I've tried one they are actually pretty nice. I actually like the 30g board better than the short throw 55g board I have. I keep thinking that their has to be a way to lighten that short throw board because other than the key weight I really like it. Oh and if you thought those 35g pinky keys on the 87U where bad for miss typing or resting your hands on you would really hate the 30g board. You have to be very careful when resting your hands on it or instead of getting aaaaaaaaaa or ;;;;;;;;;;; you get slakdaslkjaskals;alskfa;lksaklsasklasf LOL
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 06 November 2009, 16:48:59
Quote from: microsoft windows;130747
That small space bar would drive me nuts. Do they make them with the normal-length space bars?

You generally dont use spaces when writing Japanese, thus why they dont need to use them that often, thus why the space bar is tiny on Japanese boards.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: msiegel on Fri, 06 November 2009, 16:58:56
Quote from: webwit;130782
워


"Whoa"?
XD

it looks like a guy holding a huge sword...
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 06 November 2009, 21:11:53
Quote from: ripster;130771
Yeah, that's what I was wondering.  Seems 30g is really the practical limit for how low you can go.


Yea I think if you get much lower on a normal keyboard (not a DataHand) then just tapping the keyboard may make the keys activate. But the 30g are very light but usable.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 06 November 2009, 21:31:50
Quote from: microsoft windows;130747
That small space bar would drive me nuts. Do they make them with the normal-length space bars?


They are actually not all that bad. When I sit properly (proper sitting position) all it takes is a slight pulling in of my elbows and both of my thumbs hit the space bar right where the B is. When I don't sit with proper poster or spread my elbows out a little then my thumbs hit the space bar below V and N.

Take a look at the MOD on my NISSHO (link in my signature) I just spread out my elbows a little and that mod works out quite well. I remapped the language shift keys (kana keys) to space bar and the space bar I mapped to CTRL. Now it is very natural to hit the CTRL key even better than the caps lock location. I'm even thinking about get a 91U off of Yahoo Japan to see if I can make the same mod on a tenkeyless board. If that works out I may even try to pick up a Japanese HHKB Pro and try it on that as well.

Take one of your heaver used boards and find the shiny spots and you will note you don't use the the whole space bar. I find that removing that extra space you don't use anyways and putting keys in that space works out well. But the mod on that NISSHO is even better.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 06 November 2009, 22:47:04
Forgot to add this keyboard that I just saw on Yahoo Japan that is another one with laser keys it is a OEM 91U. I'm very tempted to get it because their where only a couple 100 of them made. But I'm going to pass because I think I found a even rarer one that I will post about in another thread.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5566&stc=1&d=1257569007)
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: Hak Foo on Fri, 06 November 2009, 22:56:05
Quote from: ripster;130763
And there's a Taiwanese forum.

KBDMania does better modding work but we're funnier.  I think.  Anybody know any good Korean jokes?


My knowledge of Korea is limited to:

- Most of their paper money features people wearing comical hats.  I suppose in the 15th century they were less comical.  Until six months ago, their largest note was worth about eight American dollars.

- They make an awful lot of comics about vampires.

- Judging from the box, the Peppero people will be engaged in costly litigation with Matt Groening for a mascot which resembles Bongo.

- Nong Shim Onion Flavored Rings >>> Funyuns

- How come they could get their auto industry on track and competitive in 25 years, when America couldn't do it in 40?

I'm surprised nobody has tried to cheap-knockoff the Topre-- if not the embedded spring, then at least the "capacitive via rubber dome".
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: pcode on Sat, 07 November 2009, 07:27:11
Quote from: MsKeyboard;130690
HHKB Lite is made by PFU / Fujitsu, but the Pro model is manufactured by Topre.


The HHKB Lite 2 (at least the Mac version) is manufactured by Chicony because I did notice that it identifies itself as a Chicony when Linux boots and also in the System Profiler for Mac. It's in the office now so I can't determine the exact model number but its definitely a far cry from the Pro version which is just about a week old. :)
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: didjamatic on Sat, 05 December 2009, 16:05:45
Why the L enter key?
(http://www.diatec.co.jp/products/topre2009/tp03.jpg)(http://www.diatec.co.jp/products/topre2009/tp05.jpg)

Are all Realforces going to this type of config or is this only for a limited run?  I hope for everyone's sake it's a limited run.  Though it's possible that when typing in Japanese, there could be benefits to this layout vs. what I call "The Model M" layout.  I can't stand this enter, back slash, small backspace key configuration personally.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sat, 05 December 2009, 16:20:07
japanese
to them, its normal
they dont even know how good we have it
just let them be happy
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: didjamatic on Sat, 05 December 2009, 16:21:56
As long as they still make the standard layout for export, it's all good to me.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sat, 05 December 2009, 16:22:55
doubtful

New Japanese Topres
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: Xuan on Sat, 05 December 2009, 17:19:55
Quote from: msiegel;130788
"Whoa"?
XD

it looks like a guy holding a huge sword...

Or a ball over a chair :p (or you could think in a cubistic WC)
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Sat, 05 December 2009, 17:33:54
i like those gold-ish letters
looks classy
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: joneslee85 on Sat, 05 December 2009, 18:19:03
Quote from: AndrewZorn;139189
japanese
to them, its normal
they dont even know how good we have it
just let them be happy


Can you please elaborate why L enter key is worse than -- enter key? I even find the L more attractive because when you do word processing, you want to access to the Enter key as fast as you can.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 05 December 2009, 18:24:46
Which is why the US enter is better, it's on the home row and doesn't require you to reach over like the enter on a European keyboard requires you to do. That, and the pipe key is located in a place that doesn't require you to be a contortionist to access.

By the way, I was born and raised on the UK layout, so I actually know what I'm talking about as opposed to being like "OMG, that enter button looks weird!"
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 05 December 2009, 18:27:56
Yea I tend to agree with you. The enter key does not really bother me. Really the only complaint I have with the Japanese layout is the back space key on both the normal Japanese layout and the mini Japanese layout. On the mini layouts I don't like the right shift either.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 05 December 2009, 18:34:04
Quote from: joneslee85;139222
Can you please elaborate why L enter key is worse than -- enter key? I even find the L more attractive because when you do word processing, you want to access to the Enter key as fast as you can.


And the horizontal Enter key is closer to your finger. QED.

I really don't see the point of the L shaped Enter key. If it was a big rectangle you could argue: "Hey, look at that big-ass Enter key, that's really easy to hit." But it isn't rectangular, it's all over the place so you have to be careful when reaching for it, which defeats the point of dedicating all that space to it.

It defies logic.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 05 December 2009, 18:37:01
It's to make space for the extra key needed by those pesky Europeans with their funny languages... =P

Although, I often think that a much more useful compromise would be a US-style layout with the extra key between LShift and Z. Sure that's a stupid place to have a key, but at least you get the good enter...
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 05 December 2009, 18:44:33
Quote from: ch_123;139223
Which is why the US enter is better, it's on the home row and doesn't require you to reach over like the enter on a European keyboard requires you to do. That, and the pipe key is located in a place that doesn't require you to be a contortionist to access.


I will agree that the Japanese layout will make you stretch a little to hit the enter key. But I disagree with some of the other things.

First off the keyboard I'm actually talking about for reference:
(http://geekhack.org/picture.php?albumid=8&pictureid=61)

1) The ] } key in the lower nook of the enter key is actually the \| key when you just plug the board in with out telling your OS that it is a Japanese keyboard. I use the | key quite a bit myself and I find this placement to be actually better than the normal US Location right above the enter key.

As I've stated before really the only thing that really bothers me with this board is the right shift key. But I mapped that key next the up arrow to be shift as well and that is somewhat working out better. But I would prefer to have a longer shift key in that location instead. I also miss the longer Back space but again I just mapped the unused key next to it to be another back space key and I'm good.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 05 December 2009, 18:48:14
Small backspaces are nowhere near as big an issue as people might think. My Model F has one and I adapted to it fine.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 05 December 2009, 18:53:04
Quote from: ch_123;139232
Small backspaces are nowhere near as big an issue as people might think. My Model F has one and I adapted to it fine.


Yea I agree the back space is not really a big deal. I just mentioned it because I had originally had issues with it. Today I don't have issues with it and I'm thinking of a better use for that extra key. But that darn shift key is another matter it really bugs me. I hit the darn up key more often than not but I'm slowly getting better not hitting it.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 06 December 2009, 02:26:24
Quote from: rdjack21;139229
First off the keyboard I'm actually talking about for reference:


Note the rectangular striking surface of the Enter key. That's fine by me. It's a viable alternative to the US layout.

The nice thing about the US format though, is that the \ key is enlarged, and there is no wasted space. Overall the US version is the more elegant solution, at least in that area.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rlm80 on Sun, 06 December 2009, 12:02:58
Quote from: ripster;130700
Ugh.  Brown.
Show Image
(http://www.nascentmag.com/uploaded_images/l_b674f861bcfe82963f204fb3161fc9dc-708871.jpg)


I was more interested in the 30g angle.  A few people have wandered into Geekhack looking for something like this for RSI.

Count me among those people. I'm still very interested in buying one of those all 30g keyboards.

After reading this thread, it seems to me that this is not the only keyboard that have those 30g topre switches. Do you know of any others ? One with a larger spacebar would be appreciated...

Also, do you know how I should proceed to get one of those fetched here in Europe ?

Thank you.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 06 December 2009, 12:17:49
I have an all 30g board and it is not all that bad to type on. But the one I have does have the small space bar (click the NISSHO link in my sig to see it). The small space bar is less of an issue then most people think. Besides you get 2 extra keys next to the space bar that can be used for other things. On my NISSHO though it has been modified to have an even smaller space bar and the original owner also modified the two keys on either side to be larger. So I have mapped the two larger keys on each side to be space and mapped the small middle key (original space) to be Ctrl which is rather nice. But for this to be effective you have to have a board with a very small space bar.

The space bar on the 91U is not all that bad. As far as getting one you may want to see if the Keyboard company can get you one it would be cheaper that way because they can just have diatec include one with there normal shipment. You would have to wait for it longer that way though. I'm thinking of asking EliteKeyboards to get me one but it will be after Christmas before I do.
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 06 December 2009, 13:47:00
Are the Topre boards constructed in such a way that you can convert them from one layout to another if you have the proper keycaps?
Title: New Japanese Topres
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 06 December 2009, 14:36:18
Quote from: ch_123;139465
Are the Topre boards constructed in such a way that you can convert them from one layout to another if you have the proper keycaps?


Just like all/Most keyboards nope. The problem is the bigger keys not so much the small keys. In particular the Enter key. On the Japanese boards they moved the keyslider up and rotated it 90 degrees and there is only one switch. You would need two switches under the key to be able to switch the layout. Oh the keyslider is sitting right in the middle of the two middle rows as well if it was in line with one of the rows then you could maybe use one of the extra keys for the extra switch needed.

I really wanted to put a larger shift key on my MD01B0 but on the up arrow the key slider has been rotated 90 so it would fit. So for me to get a larger shift key in there I would need to make my own key which is a little more than I can do at this point. But at some point I'm thinking of trying to do that. But even molding a key would not fix the lack of an extra switch for the enter key conversion.