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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => DIY Discussions ARCHIVE => Topic started by: elbowglue on Sat, 13 February 2010, 23:54:14

Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: elbowglue on Sat, 13 February 2010, 23:54:14
thanks rip.  Waiting for my rubber bands to come in to dampen my PCB mounted brown cherries.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: elservo on Sun, 14 February 2010, 00:43:43
That's a cool idea and I just might try it on my blue cherries.  I don't know if it will help me make less of a racket in the house at night, though.  It's worth it to at least try it on a few keys at first, like you said.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: nanu on Mon, 15 February 2010, 16:57:28
Bottoming out is only part of the noise. Once avoided or dampened there's still the rebound/"topping out" and overall keycap rattle.  Switches are quieter without the keycaps on.

Knowing nothing about the subject, the other day I actually researched a little about soundproofing, having in mind my half-baked pipedream of enclosing a keyboard in a soundproof chamber.

These are my impressions: it should not be attempted. One requirement is to have everything physically decoupled, to discourage sound transfer across rigid/solid matter.  The keyboard should be floating in mid-air! The surface it's on should not solidly connect elsewhere either! Maybe I should suspend my keyboard tray off of silicone-dipped twine. The "room" containing the noisemaking keyboard should be lined with sound absorbing materials attached with an accoustic-application, non-rigid adhesive.  All soundproofing materials are expensive and likely to have no effect if the application did not achieve its purpose (you can't tell until you've tried).  There's also the recommendation to eliminate any and all air gaps because sound would leak out of any holes, too.  Good luck with that and having your arms freely accessing a keyboard/mouse.

All of that said, there's a significant sound dampening effect from the alternative of simply draping a cloth over your hands and input devices.  Maybe try a wool "keyboard&mouse blanket" if you have cold winters.  Or maybe try suspending cloth from strings to make a tent.  At the end of the day it may be easiest to get some in-ear-canal headphones and industrial-strength hearing protection for voluntary, simulated deafness.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: nanu on Mon, 15 February 2010, 20:19:33
No. Where can I get some?
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: mp29k on Tue, 16 February 2010, 16:15:49
Quote from: ripster;158709
Bummer - just tried 3/16" medium bands.

Good:  3/16 is perfect size to just stick on the barrel.

Bad:  Medium is too narrow to make a significant difference.  It measures about 1mm in height.

If somebody gets the 3/16" Heavy please report what you find.


I think I would like blues if they were "dental banded".  It is really odd, because I love the bottom out on browns, and hated it on the blues... the blues felt harsher, and intuitively, they should be identical... who knows.  Thanks for posting your results though, if I ever get a blue board (maybe a Tenkeyless with blues is in my future) I will get the heavy, or extra heavy 3/16" version.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: nanu on Wed, 17 February 2010, 19:58:24
You can argue whether or not these latex bands are orthodontic in nature according to the eBay listings but these 3/16" Hair Dog Grooming Bows arrived today.  I ordered 4.5oz force gray and 3.5oz force red.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7935&stc=1&d=1266458019)
As you can see, the red ones are thinner (yes I did not get what I wanted; this reminds me of German red dye on keys).
If I had to guess, the gray ones are simply these resin-yellow colored bands more thickly cut from a tube that was coated with grey on the outside.

The actual thicknesses are fairly consistent even though as pictured I randomly chose some which do not support this claim.

At the end of the day, I can't feel or hear a difference between 2mm foam, 2mm felt, and these bands; they all work.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: elbowglue on Wed, 17 February 2010, 20:04:02
Got Heavy 3/16 bands from ebay.  Put them on the keycaps of my ricecar SPOS, my current favorite brown cherry board.  It sort of decreases the throw by a noticable amount, and seems to make the overall feel of the switch heavier (when bottoming out).  It's much quieter of course.

Typing on it is significantly changed.  Now I notice how close MX browns actuate (very little force is needed to actually actuate the switch in general)

It actually feels like my dell AT 101w but with a much lighter touch.

Heres the bad part:  Previously I had a really good feel as to where the switch actuates.  However, with the rubber bands my feel of where the switch actuates is really bad.  Also there is less "rebound" as sometimes I rely on overactuating cherry browns so it can spring my fingers back, if you are only using the top 2mm of travel the force return is lower.

Finally if you are bottoming out a lot, it will start to feel like you are hitting rubber all the time.  And it will feel like you need to bottom out to actuate.  just like.. a rubber dome.

I didn't like the mod.  I took it out pretty much after about 2 hours, it started giving me a huge headache (literally)

Now it seems to work better on cherry blues.  But my wife won't let me mod her whole pink filco with it, noise is no object for her either :)   With cherry blues, the bottomout nosie is gone, the click is less loud and lower pitched when you band it.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: nanu on Wed, 17 February 2010, 20:27:11
Quote from: elbowglue;158991
Finally if you are bottoming out a lot, it will start to feel like you are hitting rubber all the time.  And it will feel like you need to bottom out to actuate.  just like.. a rubber dome.

True. I've always had these cherry browns padded on my Filco and I tend to bottom out always.

Quote from: ripster;158990
The gray and thin ones felt the same?  They look different in width.

I'll report later if I can tell a difference.  Going by what elbowglue has just said maybe the thinner bands do feel a bit less obtrusive.

Maybe one day I will quit caring about noise and undo the mod entirely to see what I've been missing :D
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: elservo on Sun, 21 February 2010, 11:03:40
Quote from: elbowglue;158991
With cherry blues, the bottomout nosie is gone, the click is less loud and lower pitched when you band it.


Any chance you can make a recording like Ripster's with the bands on and off?  I'm trying to find a way to use it late at night without just taking the Topre plunge, because I hate scissor-switches now and I do my best writing at 3 in the morning.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: kishy on Sun, 21 February 2010, 11:19:36
Quote from: ripster;159814
Can you knit?
Show Image
(http://craziestgadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/body-laptop-sweater.jpg)


What is this, so one can view questionable content in public without being noticed?
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: elbowglue on Sun, 21 February 2010, 12:20:45
Quote from: elservo;159811
Any chance you can make a recording like Ripster's with the bands on and off?  I'm trying to find a way to use it late at night without just taking the Topre plunge, because I hate scissor-switches now and I do my best writing at 3 in the morning.


I'll try to make a recording later, I've been swamped with work, don't have time for much else at the moment.

My topre 86uk actually feels quite snappy, it feels more like a cherry blue to me than a cherry brown.  And it's for sale too :P
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Frawg on Sun, 21 February 2010, 14:34:07
I tried it with medium bands on a cherry brown PCB board with double caps. It is much quieter, but I personally like the sound of bottoming out on the PCB. I could see how this mod would be nice for those who want quieter keys, but I personally don't like the new sound. In terms of tactility, I noticed a very slight reduction. Not enough to bother me. I didn't notice a huge difference in key travel, but those more familiar with browns might.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 22 February 2010, 07:46:18
Quote from: ripster;159814
Still, silencing Cherry Blues is an exercise in futility.

The sound is pretty much the point of having Cherry blues in the first place. If less noise is what is desired, Cherry browns would be the better choice to start with.
 
 
 
Ugh, disc golf tourney this weekend. I'm tired.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 22 February 2010, 09:44:23
You're damn straight I was telling Tiger, Tiger Woods jokes.  My GF won her division.  She was the only person in her division, though.  She had fun and won $40 in prizes and a trophy, snd that's the important part.  I was middle of the pack.  It was a beautiful day in Austin yesterday (where we played).  75 degrees and sunny.
 
This HHKB layout is kicking my ass, but the switches are nice.  They're like more tactile Cherry browns.  They feel nothing like rubber domes, really.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 22 February 2010, 09:57:04
Quote from: ripster;159959
Show it around the office and let us know what your officemates think.

They think I'm a geek.  I try to keep new keyboard purchases quiet around the office.  They already think I am weird enough.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: In Stereo! on Fri, 26 February 2010, 04:43:35
I wanted to do this on a  Cherry MX Black board, but the only reseller I found nearby, would sell such O rings for as much as 20 euro cents per piece. **** em.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Frawg on Fri, 12 March 2010, 18:50:43
I did find a nice use for the dental bands after all
After pounding on the space bar of my Filco for an extended period of time, the shock was starting to get to me. I slapped two bands onto my space bar, and now it's very comfortable and quiet.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:52:02
Has anyone done this mod and kept it as a daily driver?
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: JBert on Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:22:53
I stuffed some bands under my model F's modifier keys.
Subtle, but I kept it anyway. Stops me from crashing hard when pressing those keys quickly.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Brodie337 on Thu, 26 August 2010, 01:07:17
Yeah, mine's a daily driver. It doesnt make much difference to feel, just softens it when you bottom out.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Infinite north on Thu, 26 August 2010, 01:15:07
Last week I did this mod to the right half of my daily driver to see if I liked it or not, still haven't removed the rubber bands so I am still undecided but I am leaning towards removing them. even though it doesn't make any sense that rubber padding would make bottoming out harder on the fingers that is how it seems to me.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: noctua on Thu, 26 August 2010, 03:59:11
Quote from: didjamatic;216607
Has anyone done this mod and kept it as a daily driver?


I use an similar approach, with slightly better results as the Dental Brand method.
For this purpose the rubber is cut into small pieces and each of them becomes an
hole of 4-5mm, as you can see on the picture. Listen the result HERE! (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=198569&postcount=22)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11368&d=1277459072)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11536&d=1278051269)
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Infinite north on Thu, 26 August 2010, 04:29:10
I have wanted to try rubber punched slugs inserted in the cylinder the stems slide into, I tried segments of rubber band trimming but it wasn't very consistent. my idea was to shorten the switch travel from 4mm to around 2mm but I want to shorten the actuation travel and also be consistent. I couldn't come up with a cheap and easy solution for either.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 26 August 2010, 11:53:46
I have dental bands on the Cherry blue keyboard that I use regularly at home.

I found that before doing the mod, the noise and feel from bottoming out had made me type slower than on any other keyboard. I noticed that I typed much faster while wearing headphones.
Strangely.. I am not bothered by "clack" when typing on Cherry browns.

I wonder how long the dental bands will last before wearing out.
Title: Dog Grooming
Post by: lashag on Sun, 19 September 2010, 11:51:09
Other dampening materials:

#1: Tried it on Cherry MX Blues. Used a very sharp knife. Difficult to get identically thin slices. The thickness ate too much of key travel but I've kept them on big keys.

#2: Bought a pack of 200 on eBay. Didn't know such a thing even existed. Softer and thinner than #1, but seems less durable. Initially don't like the feel; They still eat too much key travel. I'll give it a try though.

#3: Haven't tried it yet. Should be thinner and more durable than #2. Did an early, unsuccessful attempt using this tool (http://www.clasohlson.se/Product/Product.aspx?id=134362090) and a pair of scissors. The hole was to small, making the washers buckle randomly. They need to stay flat. If I try bicycle tube again, I'll plan using this tool set (http://www.clasohlson.se/Product/Product.aspx?id=152357527), booth for inner and outer cuts. Sorry, I've no idea what those tools are called in English.

With Blue switches it feels like I hit the bottom immediately right after the tactile bump. I've ordered a keyboard with Cherry MX Clear switches. Might be better suited than Blue with dampers, since the bump comes earlier. I imagine it will feel similar to a scissor switch, which is actually something I've been looking for; A high quality, mechanical, fullsize keyboard with long travel, scissor key feel. Hope I just didn't upset anyone :)
Title: Rubber O-Rings AS568# Size 008 for Reducing Cherry MX Keys Bottoming-Out Noise
Post by: turkey on Mon, 04 April 2011, 08:32:26
To lessen the bottoming-out sound on my FILCO Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX blues, I have used Size 008 o-rings made of 70-durometer, Buna-N rubber. Size specifications are as follows:-


The loud bottoming-out sound is caused by the support struts (arranged in a '+' formation) around the cruciform keystem striking the outer plastic casing of the Cherry MX keyswitch. By putting an o-ring or dental band onto the Cherry MX keystem, the support struts will not strike the keyswitch casing directly when the key is bottomed-out. The larger surface area of the o-ring or dental band thus contributes significantly to the reduction of the sound produced when a key bottoms-out. If your Cherry MX keycap does not have visible support struts on its underside, e. g., DECK Legend keycaps, then any reduction would be minimal at best. On the flip side, Cherry MX keycaps that do not have support struts on the underside already do not produce too much of a bottoming-out sound to start with.

When installing the o-rings, use a paperclip or some other tool to push them as far up (or down) the keystem as they will go — the goal is to get them touching the support struts before putting the keycap back on the keyswitch. In order to fully equip a standard 104-key Cherry MX keyboard, you will require a total of 120 o-rings or dental bands. O-rings can be bought cheaply on e-Bay, and Ripster has already explained how you can get dental bands for free from the dentist.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: sordna on Tue, 05 April 2011, 13:20:34
I used 008 o-rings too on my Kinesis contoured keyboard, I like this mod! Amazon sells a 100 pack for just $4 and it's even eligible for prime shipping.
However I found the 70A durometer rather stiff, so I now ordered some "-008 S40" (silicone 40A durometer) from an o-ring company. I'll report how it goes when I get them.

I tried the thin and medium dental bands too. They are both too thin and don't make any difference whatsoever on my Kinesis. I then found out that stacking 2 thin dental bands on a key works pretty good (although feels a bit inconsistent from key to key) and is much more cushy than the hard o-rings.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: AcidSouL on Tue, 19 April 2011, 13:09:41
sorry my post is not for this tread...my method is not dental so :) i remove it and put it in the right place i think... here - "Blue Cherry Keycap Dampening Material -- anyone try this?"  (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:15219&do=comments&page=2)
Title: silicone o-rings are good
Post by: sordna on Tue, 26 April 2011, 12:35:06
I just installed 40 durometer silicone o-rings, standard 008 size as above.
They are much softer than the rubber ones, and a rust (red) color. They were also much easier to put on, you roll them on the stem with your fingertips and they snap into place at the end. It took me about 30 minutes to do the whole keyboard.
My arrow keys had smaller struts than the other keys, so they would still clack a bit when bottoming out with the o-rings on, so I stacked the o-rings with neoprene 50 duro washers (1/32" thick, 7/32" ID, 7/16" OD, larger OD would fit too). Depending on your keys, if they have no struts and still clack, you could try stacking multiple washers, o-rings, dental bands, whatever you have lying around, to see which works best. Pic showing the new o-rings, as well the washers, and a standard black rubber 70 durometer o-ring.
Verdict: less noise, softer landing than standard rubber o-rings. Key travel is reduced by around .75mm, there's still ample travel left after the key registers.
The standard o-rings reduced the travel by about 1mm, I think because they didn't compress at all during typing, and was harder for the keycap struts to dig into them.
The silicone o-rings were a bit pricey, 10 cents each (same price as the soft landing pads -which I haven't tried- from elitekeyboards.com). The black rubber o-rings were only 4 cents each. However I expect the silicone o-rings to last a very long time, they seem much more durable than dental bands, dog grooming bands, etc. This mod is definitely a keeper for me.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: sordna on Thu, 26 May 2011, 12:51:07
I had dental bands on some keys for a few weeks, and am now noticing cracks on the bands. They were heavy non-latex bands I believe. They are about to fall apart. Not sure if latex bands are any better. But my conclusion is that silicon or rubber o-rings are better than dental bands. The price is about the same, if you get these o-rings for instance:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#2418T114

Soft-landing pads are great too. The gray (firm) ones. Don't bother with the black ones, they are thicker so reduce key travel more, and have a mushy feeling. The gray/firm soft-landing pads are still softer than 40A durometer silicon o-rings, I would guestimate their durometer as a 30A. I tried all of these methods with both brown and lately red cherries on my Kinesis:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18612[/ATTACH]
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: sordna on Thu, 26 May 2011, 13:00:22
I bet your HW store does not have anything softer than a 70A durometer o-ring anyway. Those I pointed to at McMaster are 50A yummy ones.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Zet on Mon, 30 May 2011, 06:56:49
Hey Ripster, the 2th image is gone, is there a chance for you to fix it? xD I wounder what we should remember...
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Zet on Tue, 31 May 2011, 23:52:13
No problem.
Also, since my keyboard has arrived, I'll try this on my red switches, first I must make the order of the bands to my dentist, I wonder what will she think when I ask her to give me 104 of this xD
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: sordna on Tue, 31 May 2011, 23:56:02
Don't bother with dental bands. They don't last very long. o-rings or soft-landing pads are much better. However it was a worthwhile experiment I must say. It's certainly worth doing if you can't find the other alternatives.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 01 June 2011, 19:54:46
Quote from: sordna;353986
Don't bother with dental bands. They don't last very long. o-rings or soft-landing pads are much better. However it was a worthwhile experiment I must say. It's certainly worth doing if you can't find the other alternatives.

The simple explanation for that is that rubber bands are not meant for long-term anything. O-rings are EXACTLY designed for low maintenance, longer-term sealing/insulating/cushioning.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 19 September 2011, 15:43:41
I have been using orthodontic bands for over a year on my primary keyboard at home and they are still holding. I don't see any cracks on any of them. If there were any cracks, they would get larger when I stretch the bands -- and I don't see that. However, the bands were never perfect circles to start with, but they are all in that same shape.

I will replace them in a year or two anyway. Rubber deteriorates, even black industrial O-rings after a couple of years.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: sordna on Mon, 19 September 2011, 17:29:43
I had bought a bunch of different dental bands, including some non-latex ones. It turns out those are the ones that were falling apart within 2 months. The regular latex ones seem to be much more durable than non-latex dental bands.
But still, o-rings should hold much longer than any kind of dental band.
Title: Cherry Key Silencing - Dental Bands Method
Post by: Glockateer on Mon, 26 September 2011, 22:03:19
For those with the o-ring mod:
When you bottom out, does it feel kind of like a stiff membrane bottom out or what? I'm thinking of trying it this week. I mainly want to lower the travel distance and have a soft landing.