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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => DIY Discussions ARCHIVE => Topic started by: itlnstln on Tue, 09 March 2010, 11:47:09

Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 09 March 2010, 11:47:09: Awesome work. Chloe and Lam47 always used whitening toothpaste (IIRC, they used Pearl Drops; it might be a UK brand, but I think we sell it here in the US). If you have any more yellowed parts, could you do a comparison of both methods?
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: salcan on Tue, 09 March 2010, 11:49:32: Big thumbs up on that post. I've been thinking about doing it for some yellowed keycaps, but it's not exactly an great project for an NYC apartment.

The results looks quite solid given how stubborn yellowed plastic can be.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 09 March 2010, 12:24:51: I guess the liquid version should be even more effective, as you probably just have to stir it once in a while instead of reapplying the paste several times. All keyboard parts, unlike computer cases, fit in a shallow tray, so I see no reason to mess with the paste.

I'll have to wait 2-3 months till it gets warmer before trying it myself though. Doing this in an appartment with closed windows is probably rather unhealthy.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 09 March 2010, 12:56:24: Quote from: ripster;162772
If I read the chemistry section right it's best to use the Oxy as well to get rid of those free radicals.

Yes, hydrogen peroxide+Oxy, without starch or glycerine.
But you're probably right, in order to bathe a keyboard case half in a tray, I'd need approximately a gallon of peroxide.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: TexasFlood on Tue, 09 March 2010, 13:07:44: Quote from: ripster;162772
The only problem is you need a LOT of hydrogen peroxide with the tray method.

Not sure I want to be buying gallons of it in this day and age, no telling what list you might end up on.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 09 March 2010, 13:08:32: No ****, right?
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 09 March 2010, 13:14:11: Hmm - I read somewhere 3% hydrogen peroxide works just as well as the stronger stuff you used. And it can be thinned down with water. So one liter of 12% solution should be enough.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 09 March 2010, 13:16:48: Quote from: ripster;162776

And don't fall into the tray.
Show Image
(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/epic-fail-hair-fail.jpg)

Yes, his skin looks really bad. But his hair came out great!
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: TexasFlood on Tue, 09 March 2010, 13:23:59: Quote from: ripster;162755
I'm painting the RetrObrite on my teeth and stepping into the tanning booth right now.

Mmfmaphfhafhhhh!

How'd it come out?
(http://www.dphotonews.com/tutorials/rotten_teeth/finished_image.jpg)
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 25 November 2010, 03:43:13: Ripster, anything you would do different for the M0110 if you would do it again?

I'm going to Retr0bright mine next week. I guess I'll just start with 10% solution and no catalyst at all.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: woody on Thu, 25 November 2010, 05:07:03: Reply to old post, but:

Quote from: TexasFlood;162780
Not sure I want to be buying gallons of it in this day and age, no telling what list you might end up on.

"Four Lions".
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 26 November 2010, 13:09:18: Thanks. What was the total exposure time for the two applications?
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 26 November 2010, 14:14:49: OK, thanks. Saw it in the OP but wasn't sure if it applied to both applications. I'll start with 10% and a couple of hours then. If it goes wrong I'll just take the other case which is less yellowed.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Thu, 19 May 2011, 19:00:10: Okay, here we go. Pictures at the end:

First off, the recipe as it stands is completely stupid and redundant. Clearly the guy who made it is not even a little bit chemically inclined. The active ingredient in oxyclean is sodium percarbonate. If you look that chemical up anywhere, (even wikipedia) you find that it is "an anhydrous source of hydrogen peroxide". This means that it is a source of hydrogen peroxide that isn't currently in water. So clearly using both a bottle of the stuff AND oxyclean is more than a little unnecessary.

Secondly hydrogen peroxide is literally the only thing that is actually used to make the change from yellow to white again. Everything else is just to make it into a paste, which may or may not be possible using a different process. That I have no idea of, since I didn't do it that way. I can tell you that you have nothing to worry about touching a solution of hydrogen peroxide. If all that safety stuff is needed, it's just for the paste.

Also, it may be that the reaction just likes light period, not just sunlight. I say this, because one of my original attempts before doing my own research ended with the keys upside down in the solution in my kitchen with the light source being one of those "daylight range" or whatever florescent types. It still whitened up.

Thirdly, because of all of this, the only thing that matters is how much hydrogen peroxide you can get into the water. It doesn't matter if you grab a giant bottle of the stuff and boil it until it is super concentrated, or if you start with water and dump the powder in. This brings up the question, what is the quickest way to actually get this stuff into the water?

Well, in all seriousness, by using neither hydrogen peroxide nor oxyclean.

Hydrogen peroxide in its aqueous form can obviously be a bit unstable, that's why they are in those brown bottles, to attempt to stop light getting in and making them react. It also has chemical stabilizers in there to attempt to keep it from reacting as well. The concentration is also really not all that high, and can be expensive.

Oxyclean... ugh... it only has sodium percarbonate as an active ingredient. Thing is, there is no actual problem with having nothing but sodium percarbonate as a powder. IIRC it is only 30-40% this stuff. The rest is nothing but filler. That's some expensive filler.

I recommend getting something else instead. For example:

http://www.ecogeeks.com/greenstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=201

This is a competing product of oxyclean. It easily has the highest concentration of the stuff in it. Something like 80-90%.

Either that (it's cheaper to go with that for small quantities) or just straight up going for the pure chemical:

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S-Z-Sodium_Percarbonate.html

This is the cheapest place I found for the pure chemical. It can also be found other places like ebay, but I think I'd probably trust them more than the ebay seller.

So anyway, that's what everyone doing this in the future should buy. If you've got the other stuff at the moment, just go apecrap by adding lots of the powder or boiling half off the aqueous form. Or both, or whatever. Point is, more is better. I'm sure someone can refine this to whatever the maximum useful is at some point, but till then this should do.

Fourth, I'm pretty sure we're down to technique now. If there's anything I've forgotten I'll try to add it later.

Anyways, at this point the biggest question is of how to soak whatever it is in this stuff. For cases and whatnot just getting some tub to stick them in would do it fairly easily.

As always, surface area is the most important for this in order to let the now in water hydrogen peroxide react with the target. However you do this great.

When I did my keys I tried to hold them in place (because otherwise they were flipping over and being upside down) by having plastic push down on them. Clear plastic, clear glass/container. The reason there are two containers was one was a mix of hydrogen peroxide and dissolved sodium percarbonate, and the other was nothing but dissolved stuff. The clear plastic or water in the top things didn't interfere with the light. The problem was that they kinda stuck to the bottom of the plastic and then didn't react anywhere near as much as they would have, so even though they are much much better, they are not as pure as they would otherwise have been.

So if you are trying keys, try and figure a way to keep them in place from the bottom of the key. Perhaps some kind of weak enough adhesive, double sided tape (or duct tape in a loop), or whatever else. Maybe you have extra stems that you can superglue (or better) for whatever kind of key it is to a sacrificial container. Or, try using a container like the ones in the pictures, and just let the keys float upside down; then put that container on top of a mirror - I'd like to see this tried to see if it works. If you can get the solution to simply be around and above what you're trying to whiten, the better they will be and the faster. Especially if you fill alot of it with concentrated solution. Also it will have the advantage of being more even, you can see that some of mine are slightly different shades.

I hope all this was helpful to people.

Before:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17076-The-quot-What-keyboard-is-this-quot

http://i.imgur.com/RAqUH.jpg

After:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18318[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18319[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18320[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18321[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18322[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18323[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18324[/ATTACH]
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 08 July 2011, 16:14:58: If I understand...bottom line, your suggestion is powder dissolved in water and some light source. Can you leave it in for too long?

The Solutor mentioned 50% h.p. and 50% ammonia....any reason to do that?
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: sordna on Fri, 22 July 2011, 10:24:56: Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;348742
I can tell you that you have nothing to worry about touching a solution of hydrogen peroxide.

That's a very reckless general statement to make. It all depends on the strength of the solution. 3% is no problem. However at 30% it will burn/sting and temporarily make your skin white. 40% and up is considered a hazardous material. At 70% the vapors can spontaneously explode.

By the way, 35% solution is very easy to find:
http://www.h2o2oxytech.com/
that's a food-grade one, no other chemicals inside. Useful to sanitize your Reverse Osmosis water filtering system. I touched a container of the stuff that had a few drops flow on the outside, and got burned, my fingers had white spots and felt weird for a few minutes.

Bottom line: BE CAREFUL
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: Atenacius on Fri, 22 July 2011, 14:59:30: There is a serious lack of controlled photographing conditions for before and after pictures. It seems like all the after shots are greatly exaggerated with lighting. A side-by-side comparison with the same lighting would be awesome
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Mon, 25 July 2011, 13:52:41: Post redacted (not sure why it's a problem now, it's been there a while), new thingy made, and statement of safety changed. Though when I did it, it seemed like I added enough powder by volume to be 1:1 with the water a couple of times and the most it did was just give a mild sensation and no damage. But like I said, I did never actually calculate anything.

Yeah those pics are all very different. The before pics were taken not only not by me, but in a different country entirely. I never had the rest of that rubber dome board. The after pics were taken inside, besides the during process ones.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: sordna on Mon, 25 July 2011, 14:06:07: Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;386868
statement of safety changed.

Thanks. I deleted my post complaining about it. I will delete this post too. I like deleting my own posts, makes me feel like a moderator. I hear some folks even like to ban themselves.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 26 July 2011, 16:53:40: What makes my off brand oxyclean (with a higher concentration) European?
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: The Solutor on Tue, 26 July 2011, 17:58:45: Quote
I updated the OP with pics and links to alternate methods including yours and Oqsy/Input_Nirvana/Listers.

I'm sure no mention for the user who pointed out that mixing peroxide and oxiclean is more or less like mixing chocolate and cocoa..:smokin:
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 26 July 2011, 18:18:10: That's what the basis of my stuff was. So yes, he mentioned it very much just there.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 26 July 2011, 18:58:51: I just saw the updated OP, it's nice. I think the links to the other sites with their tales of yellow plastic is a valuable comparison. Better/worse comparisons, no matter, things like this are often about the relativity of different situations and how they may apply to you. Information is power :)
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: enoy21 on Mon, 17 October 2011, 10:45:27: I have a further question about this after reading the Wiki and this specific method :

http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtop...ht=retrobright

Well a few questions really.

A: How does this effect the color of Double shots ?
B: How can you tell if it's yellowing with age or just it's natural color ?
C: This time of year in the mid Atlantic US it is cooler and less direct sun (UV) so would it still work ?
D: A heat lamp for a lizard.... Is that a UV lamp ?

My thought is that I wouldn't mind using the double shots that are on my WYSE 60 but I really wanted a brighter white rather than an off white cream color.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?2...-on-a-mod-idea.....
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: litster on Mon, 17 October 2011, 10:57:47: Check this thread out: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19644-Dang...-peroxide-DOES-burn and witness how an off topic thread turned into something not so off-topic. I possted information and pictures on my oxyclean adventure on both Wyse keycaps and Dolch double shots.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: enoy21 on Mon, 17 October 2011, 13:13:34: Thanks guys , more targeted questions in the other thread about this.

BTW, The bottom of my keys are fully colored by the second layer as seen in my pics so it's harder to see that the outer layer should look like. (except maybe the thin wall line ?)
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: enoy21 on Mon, 17 October 2011, 13:45:51: Any CFL ? So all of those "go green" ventures will pay off ? That would be awesome to just use my directional desk stand lamp that has the 100w equivalent CFL.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: popol on Fri, 04 November 2011, 04:26:48: Hey Ripster,
I have a quetion:
If I put some H2O2 along with a teaspoon of Oxiclean in a transparent recipient with the keycaps outside in a sunny day, should I cover it or not and what is the best way to cover it? ( plastic film?) during the 7 hours

btw oxiclean doesn't exist in Europe. I think I'll have to order it in the US.

Another question: No problem to mix different keycap colors during the operation?

Thanks
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Fri, 11 November 2011, 10:13:11: Just look up sodium percarbonate the chemical itself. I'd be amazed if there wasn't a single company in your country selling it in some form or other. Also to me having both that and H2O2 has no real help, but I've only done this the once.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Fri, 11 November 2011, 17:13:29: Oxyclean active ingredient: Sodium percarbonate. Add it to water and you get hydrogen peroxide and soda ash. So you're just upping the concentration, which just speeds up the reaction as there are more reactants. There technically could be some filler they use that might play a role, but what I used just had extra soda ash as a filler and not much of it. So mine was just with the chemical and so just lots of hydrogen peroxide. I had terrible luck doing that though, because only the stuff that actually got light changed and most things were on the inside.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: N8N on Sun, 27 November 2011, 17:25:36: Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;450244
Oxyclean active ingredient: Sodium percarbonate. Add it to water and you get hydrogen peroxide and soda ash. So you're just upping the concentration, which just speeds up the reaction as there are more reactants. There technically could be some filler they use that might play a role, but what I used just had extra soda ash as a filler and not much of it. So mine was just with the chemical and so just lots of hydrogen peroxide. I had terrible luck doing that though, because only the stuff that actually got light changed and most things were on the inside.

As I understand it, from reading here

http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/

the reason for adding the oxyclean is not so much to up the concentration of H2O2 but because it also carries TAED which acts as a catalyst and makes the reaction with the H2O2 go faster.

I'm just now trying my first experiment with this stuff, cleaning up some fantastically unworn but badly yellowed Wyse keycaps. I'm just using 3% H2O2 with some oxyclean in a mason jar... it seems to be doing something (lots of bubbles) but it is taking for-damn-ever based on comparing the color on the top and bottom of the space bar. I didn't want to go too aggressive on these though because the caps are really cool and I'd rather take my time and have them come out right rather than screw them up and have them be all blotchy.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: N8N on Sun, 27 November 2011, 17:53:44: Probably is... it's all that Safeway had. I just picked up the board yesterday and wanted to see some progress. I don't think that any beauty supply stores are open on a Sunday morning (I haven't checked - I actually don't know of any near me) and I needed to run to the grocery sellin' emporium anyway.

Based on my understanding of how this stuff works, though, I don't see that it would be a problem to just start mixing in more oxyclean - that'll just liberate more H2O2 and so long as it dissolves I should be OK... right?

the jar is sitting on the kitchen counter right now and there's a fluorescent undercounter light... better than nothin' I guess but I didn't want to spend a lot on the experiment. If nothing else, I need more keycaps like a hole in my head, but I didn't have these... and they looked cool... and what would be the point of having two different boards with Cherry doubleshots? :)
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: N8N on Sun, 27 November 2011, 20:14:53: Hah... I have the lid off and it's sitting on a saucer. I'm dumb, but at least that smart...
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: AvenZerg on Mon, 28 November 2011, 11:20:04: I have an old Dell AT101W with laser etched keycaps laying around that is just as yellow as piss on snow..
I also have some 6% hydrogen peroxide and OXI stuff.. do i have to stick to the instructions given on the retrobrite page or can i add in some extra oxi to the mix without damaging the lettering on the keys and blowing my house up in the process..?

EDIT: anyone with any experience using UV lights in combination with the retrobrite?
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Tue, 29 November 2011, 10:40:14: What I meant by my last sentence in that last post was that I had terrible luck doing it in a jar like that. From what I've done then and since it seems to me that you need light on the parts you want to chemically react. Just all tossed in a jar like that, especially the one that I used, the result is that there is only a small amount of light hitting the edges. So what you'll want to do is just find a way to physically arrange them (if you're using aqueous solution instead of the paste, and you are) so that the tops of them all get light evenly. If you can manage that then you have also made it so that there is no unusual concentration of liquid among any particular place that can't let anything that's dissolved in it flow around freely around everywhere in equilibrium. Those are really the only ways you'd get unevenness. If you're lucky they don't float upside down, mine did and what I came up with when I did it only had the light part down.

Having UV light is not required, but should speed the reaction compared to other kinds as it is more energetic.

As to how much whatever to add to it, you'll apparently hurt your hands before the keys, so just look up safe limits to touch (or, just don't touch it once it's dumped in). If you can, you can also add heat to speed it up depending on how you're setting everything up.
Title: RetrObrite - Get Rid Of That Yellow Piss Look
Post by: AvenZerg on Wed, 30 November 2011, 00:22:32: Quote from: ripster;460706
? You mean something other that what is in the OP?
i meant different results with different types of lights, w power difference etc.. >__>

EDIT: should have explained myself better, +1 ripster.