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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Orphagn on Thu, 16 June 2011, 01:38:28
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Meh. Still not convincing enough to buy a Topre board.
Nice fine though.
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where dem physical arrow keys at
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Assuming where they are on the right with the use of Fn.
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Exactly where they should be on a proper keyboard: missing. With the HHKB you can arrow around without moving your hands very far. With an inverted T, you have to move you right hand quite a bit to make use of them.
It's the same reason keyboard people tend to like the trackpoint. Cursor movement without much hand movement.
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Exactly where they should be on a proper keyboard: missing. With the HHKB you can arrow around without moving your hands very far. With an inverted T, you have to move you right hand quite a bit to make use of them.
It's the same reason keyboard people tend to like the trackpoint. Cursor movement without much hand movement.
I love the trackpoint and I love the HHKB.
I think my love for the HHKB's simplicity stemmed from the fact that I hate touchpads.
But where's my HHKB3 with improved programmability and USB3.0 ports and HDMI output and blinking LED flashlights to induce nausea?
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I still wonder whether this shortens the key travel before actuation.
Can anyone confirm it?
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i would prefer physical arrow keys.
ty
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Type-S has 3.8mm travel while pro2 has 4.0mm.
http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/type-s/spec.html#pro2_spec
I think a low noise Realforce still has 4.0mm, not shortened.
I still wonder whether this shortens the key travel before actuation.
Can anyone confirm it?
EDIT: ah, I missed "before actuation". I don't know the actuation position.
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Damn it. Now I want this.
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Clop clop clop, clopclop, cloppaclopclop.
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Type-S has 3.8mm travel while pro2 has 4.0mm.
http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/type-s/spec.html#pro2_spec
Sounds just like what happens to cherry switches with pads or o-rings installed; you lose a tiny bit of travel.
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Lol it doesn't get anymore JDM than this..
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Same old same old.
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Exactly where they should be on a proper keyboard: missing. With the HHKB you can arrow around without moving your hands very far. With an inverted T, you have to move you right hand quite a bit to make use of them.
Is the Fn key momentary or does it lock ? If it's momentary, does it means you have to hold Fn with your right pinky, while operating the arrow keys with other fingers of the same hand??
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It doesn't lock - would be nice to have that option. I prefer my HHKB without physical arrow keys.
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sordna: there's another "fn" key , right next (left) of the spacebar
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Type-S has 3.8mm travel while pro2 has 4.0mm.
http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/type-s/spec.html#pro2_spec
I think a low noise Realforce still has 4.0mm, not shortened.
EDIT: ah, I missed "before actuation". I don't know the actuation position.
I think the silent version actuates earlier, though it would be nice to have someone on geekhack who can compare the silent version with the regular one in that regard.
EDIT: I think geekhacker awry tried both versions.
Somebody other than me should ask him. He doesn't like me.
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Oh, so in Mac mode, you have to sacrifice the left command key, in order to have a left Fn key, right ?
Does anyone have a pointer to the HHKB manual ? I'd like to read more about it.
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Hi all, been lurking around, and this is first post here. I am just wondering is this the long awaited HHKB3? The press release's expected sales figure mentions hhkb3, but as far as i can tell they are calling this new keyboard hhkb pro 2 type s (it even says HHKB pro 2 on the keyboard itself, with an ugly "type - s" at the top... especially on blank keycaps...)...
After sanity returned to my brain (after scouring through the web on how to place an order immediately just for the red ctrl key, btw does anyone knows how to do it, if money is not an issue?) I am more curious about their decisions to lose 0.2 mm travel on this new version, initial reaction is of course the more travel the better, but i wouldn't know until i try it. I certainly like the noise reduction feature, it still keeps the low pitch thock when going down but gets ride of the harsher clacks when the key goes up (which only is ever an issue when i try to type fast, i watch youtube vids of people comparing brown to topre, and of course topre is less noisy when bottoming out, but once you type fast, and don't bottom out, i find the topre to be the louder keyboard or about the same, because topre does top out louder than brown IMO)
I guess you guys can hype it up some more and tell me how to get it from PFU, and the red ctrl key may just push me over the edge and make me get one, then i can do a comparison for you guys, but i don't have a realforce, so i can't confirm whether the HHKB type-S is in fact different from the realforce low noise, which tbh i doubt, correct me if i am wrong, but topre did the development and pfu just uses their switches, i doubt topre would develop a switch just for the HHKB that's better than their realforce line, or the fact that after all that many years, suddenly come out with TWO new types of switches all within months.
just for record, i don't mind the lack of dedicated arrow keys, (have a poker and like their solution as well, and all in all from RSI point of view, stretching fingers to do key combos probably can't be compensated by saving your hands from moving over to the arrow cluster), but i am certainly all for putting some flash in that keyboard so i can add a second layer to more key... feels like such a waste just to have so many blanks on the second layer i know hasu has this feature on his hhkb, if only someone would put in a detailed guide on how to do it for a non hacker on a pro -2,
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so... i hope your not being a tease here, but are you saying that we can expect the hhkb 3 within this year? damn... now i am gona have me check the pfu website on top of geekhack everyday
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I wouldn't do that if I were you.
That would be as painful as checking Unicomps website every day for new models.
Still less painful than checking TE's website every couple of weeks, and discovering the delivery date being pushed out each time :-)
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i guess we are "overachieving typists" (http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/16/pfu-outs-faster-quieter-type-s-happy-hacking-keyboard-for-overa/) according to endgadget lol.
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after scouring through the web on how to place an order immediately just for the red ctrl key, btw does anyone knows how to do it, if money is not an issue?
If money is not an issue, buy me some ninja gear and a plane ticket to Japan. I will infiltrate Topre/PFU headquarters, seduce (if female) or coerce (if male) the CEOs into giving us all the red ctrl keycaps, at which point we'll use our slaves at Topre to create more colored Topre keycaps, and then proceed to trickle them into public circulation at exorbitant prices. The Yakuza of course will instantly recognize the money to be made in the colored Topre keycap black market and will arise as a formidable enemy, at which point a bloody and violent ten year war for control will ensue, known to our children as the Topre Wars. The death toll will be high, very high, but we'll have our red ctrl keycaps, and that's all that matters.
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i guess we are "overachieving typists" (http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/16/pfu-outs-faster-quieter-type-s-happy-hacking-keyboard-for-overa/) according to endgadget lol.
Is your avatar a Amanda Seyfried pic? She said her MX-Reds hang pretty low and that she might get a surgery to reduce the key travel distance.
http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2010/03/15/amanda_seyfried_my_boobs_hang_pretty_l (http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2010/03/15/amanda_seyfried_my_boobs_hang_pretty_l)
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i would prefer physical arrow keys.
ty
Would you like a pony with that too?
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@rodya
Sounds like a plan, but dun forget the blue Esc key too LOL! the funny thing is the only thing that makes me want them so bad is probably because of its unavailability, i have all these spare keys for cherry boards, but after trying them on, at the end of the day, the board remains stock... but clickclack's artwork is a different matter, will need to get my hands someday on a few of those..
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i guess we are "overachieving typists" (http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/16/pfu-outs-faster-quieter-type-s-happy-hacking-keyboard-for-overa/) according to endgadget lol.
It's kinda like how anyone driving slower than you is an idiot, and everyone driving faster than you is crazy.
The new kiddie word for a so-called overachiever is "tryhard", particularly in online gaming.
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Is your avatar a Amanda Seyfried pic? She said her MX-Reds hang pretty low and that she might get a surgery to reduce the key travel distance.
http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2010/03/15/amanda_seyfried_my_boobs_hang_pretty_l (http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2010/03/15/amanda_seyfried_my_boobs_hang_pretty_l)
First i was like
(http://www.ragemaker.net/images/Neutral/15.png)
Then i was like
(http://www.ragemaker.net/images/Happy/36.png)
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=]
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Is the Fn key momentary or does it lock ? If it's momentary, does it means you have to hold Fn with your right pinky, while operating the arrow keys with other fingers of the same hand??
It's not a Fn lock. You have to hold Fn to be able to use the arrow functions, though I've currently got the left Win/Command key thing also set to Fn so I can activate Fn layer with either hand.
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Does the HHKB take a footswitch by any chance? Still waiting for someone to point me at the manual, I'm sure it's posted somewhere !
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So the Type-S has shorter springs, lowered suspension and stiffer shocks?
I was just about to place an order with Elitekeyboards for the HHKB, but now that this sport version is out I think I may wait until someone posts a review.
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How the mod works.
(Attachment) 19193[/ATTACH]
Looking at that pic, three things come to mind.
1) the mod appears to use a piece of foam. Anyone familiar with foam in headphones earpads knows that this material dries out and crumbles over time. So, the little pad is likely to do the same, and turn to dust over time. This means "maintenance". You'll have to change those little circular foam pads periodically over time, just like how headphone ear cushions need replacement today. If you have to send your HHKB Type-S back to the manufacturer to have the pads replaced when they dry out, that's an additional cost, and tremendous inconvenience. Would be better if the manufacturer sold the pads separately and the user could install them himself.
2) that brings up the next point. Is this a DIY mod? Can we open the Torpre switch ourselves and put the pads on. If so, then it's a great idea. We could even use a better material. And maybe there's no need for Type-S at all. Regular HHKB Pro2 owners could just buy the set of pads and install them. But, maybe the switch design has been modified to allow the pads? So, then we'd have to buy a set of newtype switches? Hmmm..
3) then there's the third point. How about a different material instead of foam? Sorbothane absorbs shock much better than foam, and dampens noise even better. A thinner piece of sorbothane could be used, say 1mm instead of the 2mm foam, giving back some key travel height to the original switch. If the manuf didn't want to use the more expensive sorbothane, and the user could install the mod himself, then there could be 3rd party sorbothane pads for an even more improved "silent" HHKB.
Well, those points just occurred to me...looking at the pics here..
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?document_srl=1339790&mid=best_article&sort_index=voted_count&order_type=desc
Listen to the difference:
http://arkouji.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2011/06/hhkb-protype-s-.html
I think it should be possible to reduce the clacking noise even further.
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WHAT THE HELL!
Why is he pressing the keys that hard? What's wrong with his hands?
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The new HHKB-S, it whimpers less when you beat the crap out of it...
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Parker333,
Some DIY silencing for Topre switch already exist.
Result? Of course YMMV:)
In my case, I used melamine foam. See this post:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?5507-Realforce-silencing&p=246628#post246628
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=18577)
This guy uses rubber sheet.
http://www.geocities.co.jp/kousaku_situ/silent_realforce/srf-pata1.html
And some people buy this nylon washers.
http://wilco.jp/products/LL/LL.html
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Is it just me, or do others also think the arrow key placement on the HHKB sucks ? Who wants to do arrow keys with their pinkies ? The mini-guru (http://www.guru-board.com/english/layout_en) prototype seems to have got it right, inverted T right under your right-hand fingers in the home row position J K L (and I for up arrow), take a look:
(http://www.guru-board.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/layout_layer2.jpg)
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To use arrow keys is exceptional situation for most users of HHKB:)
People say: Change your OS. Change your window manager. Change your editor...
I think they use their index and middle finger for arrow keys with holding Fn down by pinky.
Is it just me, or do others also think the arrow key placement on the HHKB sucks ? Who wants to do arrow keys with their pinkies ? The mini-guru (http://www.guru-board.com/english/layout_en) prototype seems to have got it right, inverted T right under your right-hand fingers in the home row position J K L (and I for up arrow), take a look:
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To use arrow keys is exceptional situation for most users of HHKB:)
People say: Change your OS. Change your window manager. Change your editor...
I'm using Linux & vim already, thank you, however with the Dvorak layout HJKL is no longer convenient. Not to mention I sometimes use arrow keys when browsing. It's just a shame that HHKB used prime key locations for things like Home and Scroll Lock, and second rate ones for Arrow keys. Not only their location is bad, but using the cross pattern on a staggered keyboard makes things much worse. An inverted T would be much better. Oh well. Hopefully HHKB3 will have a programmable 2nd layer.
Boy, every time I examine any keyboard, the Kinesis Advantage turns out better in every way with 2 fully programmable layers, non-staggered layout, and now Red MX cherries!
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nice but not nice enouth to get me in the mood of buying one
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Though I don't think HHKB arrow keys placement is so suck, I know it is not acceptable for everyone.
I have arrow keys(and mouse keys) on HJKL on my modded HHKB. Yes, I'm a vim user too.
I use ';', '/' and space as non-dedicated Fn keys. The ';' Fn key is very natural for me.
I feel like recommend others to try it if their pinky is very weak:)
A programmable keybaord is great.
It is the reason that I modded my HHKB. I couldn't wait for PFU to do that.
I read the manual of kineisis and found it is a highly configurable keyboard. Hmmm.. nice.
I would buy this nice keyboard if I had enough money and space on my desk!
I understand that you have a kinesis and you are happy now. Nice!
I'm using Linux & vim already, thank you, however with the Dvorak layout HJKL is no longer convenient. Not to mention I sometimes use arrow keys when browsing. It's just a shame that HHKB used prime key locations for things like Home and Scroll Lock, and second rate ones for Arrow keys. Not only their location is bad, but using the cross pattern on a staggered keyboard makes things much worse. An inverted T would be much better. Oh well. Hopefully HHKB3 will have a programmable 2nd layer.
Boy, every time I examine any keyboard, the Kinesis Advantage turns out better in every way with 2 fully programmable layers, non-staggered layout, and now Red MX cherries!
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Sordna, did you do that mod to red switches in the kinesis yourself? As far as I know, new ones still come with browns.
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Sordna, did you do that mod to red switches in the kinesis yourself? As far as I know, new ones still come with browns.
Nope, got it with reds from Kinesis directly. It's a special model, not listed in their website. You can easily ask about it / order it by contacting Kinesis. See relevant thread:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?18200-Kinesis-Advantage-LF-%28Linear-Feel-Cherry-MX-Red-switches%29-shipped
I am SUPER happy with this keyboard, I got two of them ! I consider the reds a major improvement (had been using the Kinesis Classic with browns for years and always wanted a lighter/smoother switch)
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For it's target market, I can definitely see that as a good choice. Especially since the keyboard itself will click for you as soon as the key is actuated (if you want), there isn't much need for the brown tactility.
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For it's target market, I can definitely see that as a good choice. Especially since the keyboard itself will click for you as soon as the key is actuated (if you want), there isn't much need for the brown tactility.
Bingo. Indeed, when I turn off the "click" sound, I tend to bottom out more. But it's nice to be able to turn the click on and off. Another thing I like about the Kinesis keyboard is the RJ11 connector it has for connecting even DIY footswitches (up to 3 of them) to activate the 2nd layer, press shift, or any other key you like.
I'm using these, got them at different times and just soldered phone wire between them. I like them because they are really clicky, plus they only cost about $15 each. I use one for shift the other to activate the 2nd layer. Sometimes I make one of them do mouse clicks.
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Bought one in Taobao, they confirm it should be at my door sometime this week. Posting mostly because i am too excited and can't wait, but don't expect i will be providing any useful info since i expect it to be exactly as advertised, and would add very little on top of what is already available on the low noise realforce. I don't have a realforce much less a low noise realforce, so i can't do a comparison there (i would really like see one though) but if you have things you would like to confirm, you may ask, but i am not big on photos, so i doubt there will be photos unless something specific is asked, and pictures will help alot in answering but they will still be low quality. I do believe i will be taking my current grey hhkb and move the case and keycaps and everything over to have hopefully (though i doubt) the first grey hhkb type s
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@hasu
I looked at your keymap layers and don't see semicolon anywhere. How do you type it? Also, do you use fn key to type forward slash? If so, doesn't that make life in shell difficult? (mostly with cd, and also with vim search)
@skwan
Nice! Does it come with the Red Control keycap?
Edit: Oops, I just saw your semicolon is on layer 4. So I guess you use fn key for that? Also, how does space as fn key work?
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Keeping my fingers crossed but i doubt, the taobao store stocked 20, and top 100 who got it from pfu gets it, he said they will confirm by today or tomorrow whether they got any, and if they did they will throw it in for free, but... i doubt its there considering according them its already being shipped to me from japan direct, and i am liasing with the sales rep from china... so even if he tells me he would throw it in there if he sees it, he didn't inform the jap side to include it when they shipped it...
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I don't have a realforce much less a low noise realforce, so i can't do a comparison there (i would really like see one though)
Here you go
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To me, it doesn't sound any quieter in absolute terms, but the pitch is much lower. Given that, and microphones higher sensitivity in the higher pitch ranges, I would say they sound pretty close to the same dB level. Anyone have a meter, both keyboards, and a desire to measure it?
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With this video nobody can imagine how different is the sound.
The man who is spaming the Topre switches should hit his own head with the keyboard...
To show differences we should see something like these videos:
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Ah, ok. Those are definitely different. The silent model is too quiet, for me anyway. I *like* the sounds my HHKB makes, and I wouldn't want them to be any quieter.
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I wonder if we'll be able to buy the little dampeners from EK.
That type-s logo is pretty sexy though, and I've always wanted to own both colors...
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To use arrow keys is exceptional situation for most users of HHKB:)
People say: Change your OS. Change your window manager. Change your editor...
Unfortunately Emacs+org-mode relies on the arrow keys for a lot of functionality.
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rodya,
My Fn key is "non-dedicated" in my terminology:)
HHKB's Fn key itself never send a keycode, so I'd call it "dedicated" to a layer switching.
In case of my Fn key:
If you press and realease Fn key normally you get a normal keycode as the keycap legend says(space, ';' or '/').
If you hold down Fn key and type HJKL at one time you can get a keycode on the Fn layer.
You can "non-dedicated" Fn key on any keys except modifiers, though
it has a problem on unintentional layer switching during fast typing.
@hasu
I looked at your keymap layers and don't see semicolon anywhere. How do you type it? Also, do you use fn key to type forward slash? If so, doesn't that make life in shell difficult? (mostly with cd, and also with vim search)
@skwan
Nice! Does it come with the Red Control keycap?
Edit: Oops, I just saw your semicolon is on layer 4. So I guess you use fn key for that? Also, how does space as fn key work?
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Ah, ok. Those are definitely different. The silent model is too quiet, for me anyway. I *like* the sounds my HHKB makes, and I wouldn't want them to be any quieter.
Same. ^^^^
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Thanks Zhuni for the vids! seen it already. What i meant was a comparison between low noise realforce with low noise hhkb, but damn that vid for the hhkb pro is loud... thats some strong fingers, i try reproducing that noise on mine, and can't get close to that... but tbh, i do find hhkb louder than cherry when topping out (i type slightly faster on brown, and with less noise @~80-90 wps, but topre is just too smooth to not use), so this low noise hhkb should be nice for me, my boss banned my hhkb due to it being too loud (for taking notes during meeting/court, i would just spam in order to keep up, so it is quite loud)