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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Findecanor on Fri, 30 March 2012, 19:02:02

Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 30 March 2012, 19:02:02: There are people on the forum who have lubricated their Cherry MX Blacks with RO-59 and find them to be smoother than unlubricated Blacks.
Most of the friction in a Cherry MX switch comes from the metal leaf rubbing against the plastic slider, even if the switch is linear.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: mmmty on Fri, 30 March 2012, 21:02:47: Quote from: ripster;561993
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=29433&d=1319232847)

Secrets exposed!!! :jaw:
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 31 March 2012, 00:01:03: It's not just the koreans,, I've been saying this ALL ALONG.....................
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: sam113101 on Sat, 31 March 2012, 02:31:34: That man knows how to capitalize words in a title.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: canon.tk on Sat, 31 March 2012, 09:12:18: When I first got my Filco with reds it felt a little "frictiony" but now it's just smooth.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: suprsmo on Thu, 19 April 2012, 10:18:10: ^^ same. On my Leopold, that is.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 19 April 2012, 12:34:36: the mx reds are frictionier because the metal switch plate is consistently in contact with the stem, that swoopy area.

Overtime the plastic will develop micro fractures, further increasing the frictiony feel.

That is why the MX blue is the ultimate superior switch, because even when the micro fractures develop, the stem is only in contact with the metal plates "half the time"
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: laffindude on Thu, 19 April 2012, 14:40:16: Got any microscope/macro pictures of said microfractures?
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 19 April 2012, 15:30:27: Quote from: laffindude;579120
Got any microscope/macro pictures of said microfractures?

I just heard this from a friend who worked at an ibm fab.

Is it really hard to imagine? Under microscopy metals have really sharp canyons, it's kinda already fractured (hard/ brittle), Plastics fracture because it sucks.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: pitashen on Thu, 19 April 2012, 15:44:10: because they got sensitive girly fingers. I got girly fingers and I personally think cherry black is friction-y as well, except to me it is not something to talk/complain about.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: bcpk on Thu, 19 April 2012, 15:50:01: The Ctrl key on my Choc Mini is kind of frictiony.. not sure what part to grease though.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: rknize on Thu, 19 April 2012, 15:57:16: Except that this flies in the face of what a lot of people report (and what I have experienced myself): new MX switches feel scratchy at first and get better over time. Not the other way around. More likely it's just the surface of the plastic getting "burnished" a bit after some use.

Reds and browns seemed scratchier to me than clears or even blues, but it's probably all perception. It makes some sense that the pad of your finger would be more sensitive to the sensation if it is not pressing down as hard on the key cap. You would also "hear" it less for the same reasons. Those same clears felt scratchier after swapping springs to make them ergo.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 19 April 2012, 17:22:37: Quote from: rknize;579189
Except that this flies in the face of what a lot of people report (and what I have experienced myself): new MX switches feel scratchy at first and get better over time. Not the other way around. More likely it's just the surface of the plastic getting "burnished" a bit after some use.

Reds and browns seemed scratchier to me than clears or even blues, but it's probably all perception. It makes some sense that the pad of your finger would be more sensitive to the sensation if it is not pressing down as hard on the key cap. You would also "hear" it less for the same reasons. Those same clears felt scratchier after swapping springs to make them ergo.

Nothing good can ever come from rubbing plastic against metal, EVEN if both surfaces are smooth.. it's still very similar to sandpaper vs rubber on the micro scale.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: cactux on Thu, 19 April 2012, 18:13:27: ^ In any mechanical joint you have contact between one or more surfaces. One of the key elements is a good lubrication
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: limmy on Thu, 19 April 2012, 19:37:55: Scratchiness is qualitative statement and it depends on what your reference point is.

I am guessing reds are scratchier than vintage blacks. When I scratched sliding surface of reds with my finger nails, I could feel grainy feel of plastic, while doing the same test with browns it was considerably smoother. Browns were new switch purchased from wasdkeyboards and reds are from a lightly used poker.

I could understand the theory that the grainy feel may go away after use, but I am not so convinced because the comparison is over time. Any comparison over time relying on sensory memory is not so accurate.

Lubrication is key to anything that moves and slides. Realforce sliders are lubricated from factory. Cherry switches are lubricated where metal bump meets plastic slider. Some take it up a level by lubricating Cherry sliders.

I personally tried lubricating Cherry switches and it feels pretty different. Is it worth the effort is a different question, because new Cherry switches are certainly usable without lubrication. It depends whether you are satisfied with the factory lubricated switches, it is just like whether you are satisfied with factory engine are willing to invest more on tuning the engine.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 19 April 2012, 20:30:01: Quote from: limmy;579296
Scratchiness is qualitative statement and it depends on what your reference point is.

I am guessing reds are scratchier than vintage blacks. When I scratched sliding surface of reds with my finger nails, I could feel grainy feel of plastic, while doing the same test with browns it was considerably smoother. Browns were new switch purchased from wasdkeyboards and reds are from a lightly used poker.

I could understand the theory that the grainy feel may go away after use, but I am not so convinced because the comparison is over time. Any comparison over time relying on sensory memory is not so accurate.

Lubrication is key to anything that moves and slides. Realforce sliders are lubricated from factory. Cherry switches are lubricated where metal bump meets plastic slider. Some take it up a level by lubricating Cherry sliders.

I personally tried lubricating Cherry switches and it feels pretty different. Is it worth the effort is a different question, because new Cherry switches are certainly usable without lubrication. It depends whether you are satisfied with the factory lubricated switches, it is just like whether you are satisfied with factory engine are willing to invest more on tuning the engine.

Ah.. scratchiness is a broad term for friction.. which is NOT a qualitative measure or a subjective measure..

You're completely wrong.

It is certainly quantitative, and objective

They do NOT lube cherry stems. Because if the lube got in between the metal / metal contact, the button would chatter.

They only lube the joint area at the bottom. where the plate contacts the housing.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: limmy on Thu, 19 April 2012, 22:16:54: Quote from: tp4tissue;579325
Ah.. scratchiness is a broad term for friction.. which is NOT a qualitative measure or a subjective measure..

Friction can be measured and I agree it is an objective measure. However scratchiness is subjective. It is just like term heavy. Weight can be measured and it is objective, but heavy is subjective term. Some feel black switches are just fine for them, some say they are heavy(or stiff). It all depends on what your reference point is. If one is used to Model M, then he/she will be just fine with blacks.

Quote from: tp4tissue;579325
They do NOT lube cherry stems. Because if the lube got in between the metal / metal contact, the button would chatter. They only lube the joint area at the bottom. where the plate contacts the housing.

I don't know what you mean by joint area. But Cherry stems are lubricated on the surface where it meets metal bump since the place is lubricated with some sort of grease.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]48622[/ATTACH]
Quote
Source: You can also see the slight dabs of clear grease on either side. If you clean the switch with solvents you may find the switch to be grainier as a result. http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards

Here is a photo of relatively new Topre slider. You can see thin coat of lube.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]48621[/ATTACH]

You can further compare it with an old Topre slider. The lube is not there anymore and it is scratched.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]48623[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]48624[/ATTACH]
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: limmy on Fri, 20 April 2012, 01:13:44: Quote from: ripster;579475
Invisible Topre Lube?

It is there. Look closely. Look at the comparison pics. If you call that invisible, you must be blind.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: limmy on Fri, 20 April 2012, 01:26:02: Quote from: ripster;579475
Invisible Topre Lube?

This should be visible enough for ya.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]48635[/ATTACH]
Quote
source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3884392 by NightJoker

But this over applied grease can only be found on left control key. Lube on other keys are less visible as you can see on my previous pics.

It is saddening that I have to walk you through every detail to prove a simple point that is so apparent to me.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: limmy on Fri, 20 April 2012, 01:44:40: So, do you see the lube now? Is it still invisible to you?

If it is I will later do a comparison pics: one with original slider and the other with washed up.
Title: Why Are The Krazy Koreans Saying Cherry Reds are Frictiony?
Post by: limmy on Fri, 20 April 2012, 02:09:36: I plan on contributing to Topre wiki, but there are so many screws to undo to take additional pics!

I should write up things to document next time I open up my Realforce. Next time I open up my RF, I am going to do some measurements with my digital caliper and do a comparison between lubed and unlubed Topre stabilizers. Last time I opened up I noticed stabilizers of Backspace, Enter, two shift keys were not lubricated while space bar was. There is considerable rattling noise from unlubed stabilizers.

I should plan ahead and catch multiple birds with one stone. Wait for me to throw that stone.