geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Carnage on Sun, 05 August 2012, 11:01:03
-
Well guys i was truly considering getting nice buckiling springs board after creating a thread figuring about the ps2 vs usb KRO on the unicomp ones etc i kind of decided i wanted one but then... I realized how much i love my alps im currently have a A leading Edge DC-2014, and a f21-7d clicker ((which uses blue alps clones)) and im not sure anymore my dc-2014 is starting to get worn and i dont think has much of a life left so im currently using the f21 but im wondering how buckling springs truly compare to alps on loudness and feel Im not sure if it is just me or not but ive fallen in love with these alps ive also used black mx switches but it seems like nothing compares to the sound and feel alps give the keyboard will be for heavy typing and starcraft 2 playing so im wondering if its really worth getting a buckling spring board if i should invest the time and money into finding another beautiful blue alps keyboard. so whats your guys opinion on it how do they stack up to each other in sound feel response rate and lifetime
-
buckling spring is better in lifetime and sound and more available.
And feel is a personal taste.
-
This is very subjective. I've tried both (in Dell AT101W and IBM Model M guises) and my decision came down to buckling springs--and that's why I'm receiving a Unicomp Ultra Classic tomorrow.
-
It depends on your preference. If you prefer keys that require more actuation force and offer a louder click than Cherry Blues then Buckling Spring might be what you're looking for. Personally, I've owned all three types (Cherry Blue(Blackwidow), Buckling Spring(Model M) and Alps(Apple Extended Keyboard)), and I although I really like the feel of the Apple Extended Keyboard, I have to say I love the overall sound and feel of the Chicony KB-5181. While I admire the solid (tank like) construction of the original Model M's, in the end I have to say they're a bit too fatiguing on my fingers. Ideally, I'd transplant the switches from my Chicony into the carcass of one of my Model M's if it were possible.
-
ALPS and BS feel very different. Microswitch-based tactile keyboards have a jarring feel to them as you force the switch past its click point. This is much more noticeable with ALPS for some reason. The point where the spring buckles in BS is very soft by comparison, but you do have to press the switch down a long way to get it to actuate and you're much more likely to misfire when moving from microswitch to BS as result – the keys need a good whack to actuate.
I can't speak for actual switch longevity, but I do have an 80s blue ALPS keyboard that feels good as new, although one switch on the number pad has started playing up.
In terms of availability – membrane BS is a fixed design that's been around since the 80s. It's changed slightly over time, for better or for worse depending on who you ask, but essentially it's timeless so long as Unicomp don't do something stupid or die.
ALPS on the other hand is a mess. For example, Matias switched to Fukka switches in the Tactile Pro, but those aren't being made any more, and now Matias have designed all new varieties for the next revision (and it sounds like the clicky and tactile ones may both be white – XM already violate the integrity of green standing for linear). Earlier Tactile Pros used different switches again – at least three different switch types on a product from the same company as switch production ceases! That's not counting all the times ALPS themselves came up with new switches, and they all feel completely different. Complicated long-switchplate blue ALPS (clicky) are razor sharp but butter smooth, while complicated black short-switchplate ALPS (tactile) are rough and mushy. XM (Type II) simplifieds are virtually unusable, while Fukka (Type I) simplifieds are very similar to, and slightly lighter than blue complicated, and you come to love the ping. I've got a Type IV simplified here that I need to get set up so that I can see how they compare (they're lighter and more resonant than Type II) – do NOT take those switches apart as they're impossible to reassemble!
Overall, the best bet is on Cherry MX as their popularity assures the longevity of their product like, while Unicomp could collapse and end BS forever, and ALPS switches change constantly. Unfortunately I want something stiffer but smoother – I am really looking forward to Matias's new dampened tactile "Type V" (if we can call it that) switches ...
-
I own both an ALPS and a Buckling Spring keyboard currently. I score 3-4wpm higher in typing tests with my Model M (buckling spring), but if someone told me I could only have one of the two, I'd keep the D07-135 (tactile nonclicky black ALPS) for sure; it's a lot more comfortable in extended use and gaming.
That said, keep in mind that not all ALPS are created equal. If it were between the Model M and my now very much deceased Ducky 1008XM (green clicky XM ALPS), the Model M would take it. Badly done ALPS are truly miserable. The green XM are a lot of fun if you're sitting at the keyboard randomly pressing arrow keys just to make them click, but for any other situation, I'm not sure if I'd recommend them even over a rubber dome, let alone over a decent mechanical.
-
Well, practically speaking, your only real options for alps would be to find another vintage one from that era and buy that; or buy one with matais' new switches when they come into the market within something like a few months time. Or you could go ahead and get the unicomp today.
As far as guessing which you might like better, there seems to be a pretty good trend for people that like alps liking buckling springs and vice versa. So I don't really think it'd be wasted money.
-
I have tryed blue and white alps and model F and Model M and I generally feel that Buckling springs are better.
-
Yeah for a while I was getting confused about people actually liking XM ALPS. Some keys such as XM ALPS and Acer feel really nice if you stab at them with your finger, but then you try typing on the keyboard and find that you were deceived. Cherry MX and BS on the other hand feel better to type on than to poke at.
-
Yeah for a while I was getting confused about people actually liking XM ALPS. Some keys such as XM ALPS and Acer feel really nice if you stab at them with your finger, but then you try typing on the keyboard and find that you were deceived. Cherry MX and BS on the other hand feel better to type on than to poke at.
Expecially cherry blue.
The switches are SOO lousy when you have one in your hands and press it.
But when typing on a blue switch keyboard, DAMN.
-
Hmm so I see and which one of the two key switches are louder?
-
I like buckling springs, but the Alps switches are prone to wearing out and become unreliable with too much use. And while the buclking springs tend to age better, there's still those plastic rivets inside the model M's which can break, causing a noticeable degradation in keyboard performance.
Y'all might hate me for this, but I prefer rubber domes overall. They're often given a bad name because there's so many of them out there, and that includes some low quality keyboards. But I've found that a good rubber dome keyboard will last for decades without any noticeable change in feel, and will be extremely reliable as well. My favorite rubber domes are the Dell Quietkey's, the silver and black Hewlett-Packard keyboards, and the old beige Apple rubber dome boards from the early- to mid-1990's. All are cheap, good feeling, and reliable, and I can easily get enough to use with multiple computer setups. What more could you ask out of a keyboard?
-
I like buckling springs, but the Alps switches are prone to wearing out and become unreliable with too much use. And while the buclking springs tend to age better, there's still those plastic rivets inside the model M's which can break, causing a noticeable degradation in keyboard performance.
Y'all might hate me for this, but I prefer rubber domes overall. They're often given a bad name because there's so many of them out there, and that includes some low quality keyboards. But I've found that a good rubber dome keyboard will last for decades without any noticeable change in feel, and will be extremely reliable as well. My favorite rubber domes are the Dell Quietkey's, the silver and black Hewlett-Packard keyboards, and the old beige Apple rubber dome boards from the early- to mid-1990's. All are cheap, good feeling, and reliable, and I can easily get enough to use with multiple computer setups. What more could you ask out of a keyboard?
Let's say for the sake of argument you're right. Let's assume most rubber dome keyboards are more reliable than mechanical keyboards in general. That says nothing about how satisfying they are to type on, and to me that's what counts. I'd take my Chicony KB-5181 or Apple Extended Keyboard over any rubber dome keyboard I've ever owned (I've owned quite a few) any day, more reliable or not.
-
Ignore MW, he's just trolling.
In reality rubber domes are more prone to we're over time than mechanical switches. NIB model M's don't have the rivet issue, nor do Unicomps. Alps are a more complex switch but still likely don't wear as fast as your typical rubber dome.
-
I didn't say I like ALL rubber domes! Only good ones. There's plenty of crappy ones out there too. But good rubber domes are cheap and reliable and satisfy my needs. That doesn't mean they need to satisfy yours though. Everybody's needs are different!
I do have and use an IBM Model M and an Apple Extended keyboard. While I like the feel of the Model M, I can't get them cheaply and easily enough to use on multiple computers, which is something I need out of a keyboard. And the Apple Extended keyboard's OK (The locking down Caps-Lock is kinda cool), but it's worn out. I've found my rubber dome Apples have a nicer, lighter, and more consistent feel(only the beige ones from the 1990's; the colored and white ones are complete garbage).
-
I didn't say I like ALL rubber domes! Only good ones.
And in "good" you included … Apple, of all people. Apple rubberdome keyboards are universally awful, which is interesting considering the price you pay for their hardware (you only get raped up the stink for the waterjet-cut cases, not for practical considerations such as a keyboard¹). Their scissor switches aren't the spongiform mess of Latitude D-series machines, but they're limp and flat affairs that suck in a whole new way. There are much more tactile scissors out there that put some feeling into typing.
¹ OK, to be fair, they've gone all IPS now with the displays, which is admirable.
-
My favorite rubber domes are the Dell Quietkey's, the silver and black Hewlett-Packard keyboards, and the old beige Apple rubber dome boards from the early- to mid-1990's.
The silver and black HP keyboards are ghastly awful. I do like the keys themselves, though. The engraving and texture is nice and a bit retro.
-
I saw a Latitude recently (E6520 or some such, brand new) with light-on-dark legends in that Topre paint style, i.e. no decal look. Pretty swish. Just needed a nice OLED screen ...
I am not sure I would really want to use any dome keyboard besides Topre though. Topre and BS are in the same force curve class, firm but smooth. I'd like a clicky Topre, or a lightweight BS keyboard. I need to try a Model F one day to see just how much lighter capacitive BS is, without the need to drive a membrane hammer. Even though no-one will ever make them again.
For sound, though, pingy metallic Fukka or somewhat plasticky BS? Hmm ... (Model F is also very twangy – Unicomp BS has a very hollow, dry sound, compared to what YouTube indicates the Model M sounds like.)
-
I didn't say I like ALL rubber domes! Only good ones.
And in "good" you included … Apple, of all people. Apple rubberdome keyboards are universally awful, which is interesting considering the price you pay for their hardware (you only get raped up the stink for the waterjet-cut cases, not for practical considerations such as a keyboard¹). Their scissor switches aren't the spongiform mess of Latitude D-series machines, but they're limp and flat affairs that suck in a whole new way. There are much more tactile scissors out there that put some feeling into typing.
¹ OK, to be fair, they've gone all IPS now with the displays, which is admirable.
Alright...just to set things straight; I do NOT like these keyboards:
(http://pcmonde.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/M9270LLA.jpg)
(http://www.curiouschap.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/apple-keyboard-opened.jpg)
As a matter of fact, I HATE them. I had to use them at work for years. Those keyboards, especially the clear and white ones, are downright HORRIBLE. I'd like to take them all and run them over with my truck and then burn them. Or do something else bad to them.
These keyboards, the Apple Design keyboards from the 1990's, are the ones I like:
(http://www.clear-coat.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/IMG_0796.jpg)
There are two types of them-- one with slider switches, and another with straight up rubber domes. Oddly enough, the type with the sliders always felt mushy while the other ones had a nice, light, and consistant feel to them.
-
Alright, I suppose that I have to weigh in on this.
First, I love buckling springs and I cannot lie.
I also like Alps a lot, even the dreaded blacks found in the Dell AT101 family, although those can (1) last for years and still feel great, or (2) become gritty and dreadful. I keep a couple of AT101s around although I have not used them much in recent years.
Although I have never owned an Alps blue board (on my wish list), I have been very satisfied with whites and pinks, when in good condition, as above.
And I particularly enjoy the Monterey blues, which could probably be thought of as an Alps variant.
After trying hard to like the AEK2 with dampened creams, I just cannot get behind them. I still own a very nice specimen which I drag out every once in a while to re-try.
I have several rubber dome boards that I consider acceptable, always with the stipulation of good overall condition and no excess dirt or wear.
The IBM KB8923/7953 line is solid and crisp. The original Dell Quiet Keys (with colored domes, not the later China models) have proven excellent, and I got lots of good service out of late-1990s-early-2000s Compaqs such as the SK2800 but grew tired of the layout. I have a Cherry at the office which is pretty decent, but I can't remember the model line.
I have owned Apple Design Keyboards and considered them horrible. My daughter uses the one pictured at the top and likes it ("because it is white and girlie") but it is another genuinely dreadful-feeling board, in my opinion.
My Acer laptop with scissor switches is always very annoying to me, but when a Model F is your daily driver, anything is a big step down.
My wife is an Apple-worshiper and considers the newest thin metal boards with hair-width key travel to be the best boards of all. I don't enjoy them, but she is a professional writer and types thousands of words per day, so it is hard to argue with her.
-
After trying hard to like the AEK2 with dampened creams, I just cannot get behind them.
I agree. The AEK, on the other hand, offers a very pleasant typing experience, in my opinion.
-
I am a big fan of ALPS, however I have not tried the Blue variety. I also happen to like the IBM Model M. I generaly prefer buckling springs, but my roommate, (and a lot of other people prefer the alps). I used an M at work until people complained and I switched to an AT101W.
-
After trying hard to like the AEK2 with dampened creams, I just cannot get behind them.
I agree. The AEK, on the other hand, offers a very pleasant typing experience, in my opinion.
I've got one of those original Apple Extended keyboards too, but it's in pretty sad shape and has very high mileage. But I gotta admit, the lock-down Caps Lock is cool.
-
I have owned Apple Design Keyboards and considered them horrible. My daughter uses the one pictured at the top and likes it ("because it is white and girlie") but it is another genuinely dreadful-feeling board, in my opinion.
BLASPHEMY! No real computer user is allowed to like those discraceful keyboards!
-
apparently you missed the
"white and girlie" part
she is 14
-
Alright...just to set things straight; I do NOT like these keyboards: …
The AppleDesign Keyboard is rubbish too (even when they haven't mislabelled the keys in the factory). The little keyboard with the large, slightly curved Power button was even worse, and the PowerBook 150 keyboard … oh dear.
They should have stuck with ALPS. When you move to domes to cut cost, you won't get anywhere.
-
Which type of the Apple Design keyboard have you used? There's two I know of: the type with sliders over the domes, and the type without sliders over the domes. The slider type feels mushy (I don't like it as much), but the non-slider version has much lighter action feels great. Probably one of the best keyboards I've ever used.
-
Indeed, the non-slider one is better. I've got one of each – the non-slider one is yellowed and dirty so I never used it. I was using the slider one. The non-slider one has a better sound, too.
-
Y'all might hate me for this, but I prefer rubber domes overall.
"We'all" already hate you MS Windows. It's not like you needed to give us another reason.
JK - we really love you. I've been out of circulation on GH for a couple of years but it looks like a much kinder, gentler forum than the old days.
Enjoy your "high quality" rubber domes keyboards.
-
Hey,
I love both of these switches. They do feel different. The force needed feels [to these fingers] stiffest for BS, and they're much more crisp or precise versus Alps. Alps feel almost sloppy compared. The tactile bump is more pronounced in the Alps, though. My vote goes to the BS.
-
Holy 7-year necromancide batman! xD
-
Just as I'm checking eBay for affordable Alps keyboards because I have a third computer... fitting!
-
Necro of the year? :D