geekhack
geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: fartq on Mon, 06 August 2012, 08:22:14
-
Folks,
I don't want to say anything concrete without lit and bpiphany weighing in, but if there is a second run of phantom parts, i think it would be productive to weigh in on what changes should be made to the kits to make them better/easier to construct, etc. here are my ideas:
1) every kit should come with a case. it has been far too hard to source cases for the design, despite filco compatibility. first off, filco boards are not cheap, and there's no inexpensive secondary source of filco cases, since they're not cheap. my idea for this was to simply have thick aluminum or steel rectangular bottom plates cut, finished, drilled and tapped for standard pcb spacers (ie, motherboard spacers). this should be extremely inexpensive, and is a perfectly adequate case with the addition of either small printed or milled feet.
2) the board design should be revised to SMT so that it can be stuffed with diodes, LEDs, controller, etc. everything but switches at the factory. this will make sourcing the kit significantly easier, not to mention construction.
3) tolerances on the plates has been an issue. we need to work directly with a competent shop this time that can give us high precision lasercutting and good guarantees on uniformity of thickness and flatness of each plate. treble is usually my go-to guy for machining and materials sourcing, but his time has been an issue, so we might have to find another shop (possibly remote) that can give us this. again, finishing is an issue as well. in the previous run, finishing ended up being the key to getting thickness uniformity, so that may have to happen again.
4) switch sourcing: we won't be ordering from germany again. fortunately, demik has found a reliable domestic source of switches. unfortunately, due to the current switch shortage, they're all pcb mount, so the pcb will need to be revised if possible to accept such parts, and we may not get the most amazing choice of switches. however, cost and lead times should be much better this time (switch sourcing was by far the long pole in the previous run).
-
Acrylic cases would be cheaper than the aluminum...
-
the lasercutting costs significantly more than the materials, but it would eliminate the finishing issues. something to try.
-
the lasercutting costs significantly more than the materials, but it would eliminate the finishing issues. something to try.
I can offer powdercoating services :)
-
ooo, good to know :D
-
ooo, good to know :D
Yep, got a ****ton of colors to chose from and very competitive on the prices :)
-
Sounds interesting.
Not for my wallet, though :/
-
I know a guy with a laser cutter that can do 1/2" plate aluminum
-
what are his tolerances though? and pricing?
-
what are his tolerances though? and pricing?
I'm pretty sure 1/32+/- & idk depends on material+how complicated it is.
-
+/- 1mm is too much
-
+ or - 1mm would be total of .078 in English units. The will need to be + or - .002 or .003 max. The specs for the plate are on cherry's website. I do remember that the corners of the cutout square called for a maximum radius of .005, which is pretty difficult to obtain. An undercut could be required.
-
I looked at some of the parts we've sent him in the past. One was +0, -1/32, would that be acceptable?
-
See above.
-
See above.
I was talking about using this guy for the case, not the plate ^__^
Also, I've never asked specifically about tolerances. +/- 1/32 is the tightest tolerance I've seen sent to him, me might be able to get that even lower.
-
Sorry bout that. On that note, what technology was used to cut the plates, laser, waterjet, edm or something else?
Thanks,
John
-
oh! for the case i was thinking that all we would want to do is drill and tap
i guess we could round the corners, but it's literally just a metal plate with some standoffs on it
-
Mmmm, bare bones
-
I'll email him about his tolerances, how thick does the plate need to be?
-
i'd say around 6mm so that it doesn't dent and still has a heft to it? beyond that the sky is really the limit.
-
So it could be 1/4" thick (I would think it would be easier to get than 6mm)? Also, do you have a dwg file with locations, dimensions, tolerances...... of the plate exactly how you want it(imperial measurements preferred)?
I could get a quote on it
-
i was somewhat anxious to see this thread, as always, the buyer's regret is that ver2 is always better than the first. fortunately, for me anyhow, building is part of the fun so through hole vs SMT isn't a factor. That said, I'd like to know there's going to be a good opportunity cost made available to those that participated in the first round for any cases or plates.
-
http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/item/keyboard-accessory/colorful-replace-case-filco-an/lid=31051008
did anybody try this item for the phantom?
-
So it could be 1/4" thick (I would think it would be easier to get than 6mm)? Also, do you have a dwg file with locations, dimensions, tolerances...... of the plate exactly how you want it(imperial measurements preferred)?
I could get a quote on it
literally, rectangular bulk material t6061 or some other alloy with low internal defects at the dimensions of the phantom pcb (don't remember offhand), attachment mechanism for 4-5 2-3mm x 1-2mm standoffs (either drilled and tapped holes or something permanent).
basically, cheap bulk material. bulk of cost will probably be finishing
-
also, as an approximation when talking to vendors about cutting, what's the typical square footage (or linear inch) of cutting that needs to be budgeted for a 3 layer (bottom, 1/2" middle, and 1/4 or 1/8" top) laminated acrylic case?
-
It would be nice to have an all-in-one purchase cost. Similar to how KBD/OTD runs groupbuys, all you typically need is switches and some soldering skill/tools.
-
I am totally up for designing a new board =D
- I think we should do a full size board, with the possibility to cut it down to tenkeyless size. To have at least something new.
- SMD is the true path.. (holes for through hole diodes could still be included).
- Building the controller from scratch directly on the main PCB.
- Ditching the Teensy and all little diode legs in the process =D
- PCB mount holes may be possible, at least on most switch locations.
- PCB mount stabilizer holes will probably be possible to mark by 1mm pilot holes, to make custom case builders happy =) They overlap too much to have all options drilled to size from start. The desired holes will need to be drilled, but this is easy done with the pilot holes.
- PLU cases? I still haven't heard if they are compatible.
- Leopold cases? They are not compatible with the phantom due to different mounting hole locations. But those hole could possibly be included in a new design. If the rest of the layout is equal. Same distances between different block of keys. (Having the controller SMD will help making room for the extra mounting holes).
- I don't know even know where to start looking for building services. Or what more steps in the design phase that need to be taken...
The ErgoDox design came and took all my time for a while, but before that I started a thread (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/custom-5x15-key-alpha-sections-provide-your-layout-ideas-t3223.html) on DT asking for requests for features to include on a new design. Mainly spacebar row setups, since that can be done in a thousand different ways... I don't think I will go completely crazy though. The standard ones like
- Filco and others: 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 6.25, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25
- Cherry: 1.50, 1.00, 1.50, 7.00, 1.50, 1.00, 1.50
- Realforce: 1.50, 1.00, 1.50, 6.00, 1.50, 1.00, 1.00, 1.50
will be included, and a few extras of the best suggestions (that I find reasonable).
-
where does one find a cherry MX 6 spacebar?
-
where does one find a cherry MX 6 spacebar?
I, for one, have some...
-
I'm definitely very excited to see a streamlined round 2 in the works! Controller built into the board sounds awesome, I like where your head is at Prins!
Sounds like the most pressing matter is figuring out the case situation. Swede is back at work on his aluminum filco/phantom case at DT, so hopefully it will come to fruition sooner than later. Treble has expressed interest in making an alu TKL case, but we all know he is very busy. And the fact is both of these options will likely be in the $300 range for the case alone, which would limit this project to very few gh'ers.
What about designing a case and having it manufactured like Dox did? Another decent option would be to just buy a filco and use it's case and switches (at least for people building with mainstream switches), but the required desoldering would probably scare as many people as the pricetag on an alu case..
-
I am totally up for designing a new board =D
- I think we should do a full size board, with the possibility to cut it down to tenkeyless size. To have at least something new.
sure, a perforation through the board at the tenkey pad and a flex connector linking the tenkey and the tkl part shouldn't add too much cost.
SMD is the true path.. (holes for through hole diodes could still be included).
no, pick and place construction will make the through-hole stuff a waste of space and time
- Building the controller from scratch directly on the main PCB.
- Ditching the Teensy and all little diode legs in the process =D
- PCB mount holes may be possible, at least on most switch locations.
- PCB mount stabilizer holes will probably be possible to mark by 1mm pilot holes, to make custom case builders happy =) They overlap too much to have all options drilled to size from start. The desired holes will need to be drilled, but this is easy done with the pilot holes.
- PLU cases? I still haven't heard if they are compatible.
- Leopold cases? They are not compatible with the phantom due to different mounting hole locations. But those hole could possibly be included in a new design. If the rest of the layout is equal. Same distances between different block of keys. (Having the controller SMD will help making room for the extra mounting holes).
- I don't know even know where to start looking for building services. Or what more steps in the design phase that need to be taken...
someone pointed out an HK supplier that advertises via ebay recently. our chinese contacts will be able to get this done too.
The ErgoDox design came and took all my time for a while, but before that I started a thread (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/custom-5x15-key-alpha-sections-provide-your-layout-ideas-t3223.html) on DT asking for requests for features to include on a new design. Mainly spacebar row setups, since that can be done in a thousand different ways... I don't think I will go completely crazy though. The standard ones like
- Filco and others: 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 6.25, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25
- Cherry: 1.50, 1.00, 1.50, 7.00, 1.50, 1.00, 1.50
- Realforce: 1.50, 1.00, 1.50, 6.00, 1.50, 1.00, 1.00, 1.50
will be included, and a few extras of the best suggestions (that I find reasonable).
sure, the option can be there, but we're only going to press out two types of plate en masse: winkey and winkeyless. litster and bini had a heck of a time with plate production last time, so planning ahead of time for this is going to be key.
-
sure, the option can be there, but we're only going to press out two types of plate en masse: winkey and winkeyless. litster and bini had a heck of a time with plate production last time, so planning ahead of time for this is going to be key.
ISO and ANSI?
-
oh right, i forgot about you guys. sure.
none of this 7bit LAYOUT nonsense though.
basically, layout choices should be:
ISOWKLESS
ISOWK
ANSIWK
ANSIWKLESS
that only requires us to source 4 plates (if we even source plates). if you want your own crazy layout, source your own plate, but you will have to buy one of those four plates form us with your kit...
-
I will just pack as many options as possible onto the PCB, there is no extra cost in that =) If there is room for through hole diodes I will add that option as well. As long as that doesn't push against any limit in the number of holes that won't add any cost either (pcbwing do 1000 holes for "free"). I think it will be possible to connect the parts with traces even doing perforations.
Plate choices and manufacturing will be up to someone else to decide on.. Cramming more options onto the PCB facilitates for home tinkerers prepared to do their own case/plate/PCB mount.
-
yep. afaic the major revision that needs to be made to the pcb is the ability to pick and place most if not all but switch components. also, keep in mind that we will probably not go with pcbwing again, as they won't do pick-and-place afaik.
manufacturing and parts sourcing concerns are otherwise most paramount for this second run, as the goal is to minimize sourcing and manufacturing time.
-
I think that usually you need to supply reels to the pick and placers. I don't know if the controllers come on any reels or such or if they need to be placed by hand or some other means. Also some of the support components for the controller won't reach very high numbers, and buying full reels may be somewhat pricey. Diodes on the other hand would be both cheap and nice to have pre-assembled... I don't know what costs we are talking about when outsourcing the component placing. We are not going to reach any tremendous amount of units =P And really it is not that hard soldering the SMD diodes. Controller and supporting components may be a bit tighter.
But if someone with experience in pick-and-place can help out with all such things, that would be great.
-
But if someone with experience in pick-and-place can help out with all such things, that would be great.
yep, this would be ideal
-
aha, found the link again
http://www.sitopway.com/en/index.php
they have an ebay store too
-
Although many prefer cheap cases, I think there should be some kind of aluminum option like the kbd/otd keyboards. Really diggin the look :/
-
I don't mind having a baller out option either =)
-
What I would do:
Make pcb mount switch so plate is not necessary at all, option. No need to spend all sorts of time for a bunch of crazy esoteric layouts that very few people might use, just make the same pcb accommodate ansi/iso and winkeyless and winkey version with both step and center capslock option. Have the pcb factory assemble everything but the switches, including a controller. Controller should be programmable still though if at all possible, else just use something standard like a holtek or whatever.
For case, make one design, maybe like 'The Cheat' design and have it made in both acrylic and metal option.
Just keep it simple, and base kit (say pcb and acrylic case only) as cheap as possible of course.
-
you know this pcb-mount switch option is not a bad idea, especially backed by a solid piece of metal
-
Exactly, and say you go with a 'The Cheat' style case option, where the bottom piece of the case is probably like 4mm thick, I think you won't experience flex and you still don't need some plate, even if it's plexi.
-
With enough screws to attach the PCB to the case between every second switch or so, it would probably be quite sturdy.
-
Probably wouldn't bottom out as loud as plate mounted either. But I sure like the look of a plate beneath the keys :-D
-
and it's much much cheaper and easier to machine a solid backing plate than a cherry style switch support plate
-
and it's much much cheaper and easier to machine a solid backing plate than a cherry style switch support plate
Milling tends to be more expensive than water or lasercutting by my experience though.
I wonder if one could make a simple watercut plate with holes, then bolt it to the pcb at ~50 places with washers in between as to not short out the solder joints from the switches to the plate. All those scews would only have to be done once. The ease of switching stems would last forever.
-
it can be a solid plate that's drilled and tapped. it doesn't have to be milled. the only thing you need is a dielectric pad between the plate and the board. i have a pure which operates on this principle, and is rock solid.
oh, i just read the second sentence of your post. lol. yah, that's the same idea. the only issue is that if we have to mount ICs on the bottom we might need something like 2-3mm thick washers, which would not be as solid as a dieletric pad
-
Since tapping is manual labour, it tends to cost a lot, and be priced per hole. I would suggest screws and nuts since nuts are cheaper.
The insulating pad sounds interesting. I have never used that in something I have made myself. Were you thinking of that thicker foam type insulation or more like a thin film of some sorts? I suppose it could even dampen the cavity resonance as well if the foam type were to be used.
-
60% KBs is difficult to design 100% top-side devices. Anything bigger should be cake.
Don't tap, drill and use PEM nuts or nutserts or whatever.
-
i was thinking thicker foam. i've literally used craft foam from michael's (a crafts shop here) to great success
good point on the tapping
-
i was thinking thicker foam. i've literally used craft foam from michael's (a crafts shop here) to great success
good point on the tapping
I wouldn't use that foam is may be conductive. I've only ever seen the pink foam labeled as non-conductive
-
it's not so much that it's conductive, but it's not clearly ESD safe. in my pure application it's good enough (doesn't touch any ICs), but you're right, we would need to get ESD safe material for a phantom application if it touched IC traces
-
My CPU cooler definitely has a foam sheet attached to the back plate that lies against the mobo, and it is black. I wonder where one could buy that as a non-company. It is probably not sold very often to people.
-
the lasercutting costs significantly more than the materials, but it would eliminate the finishing issues. something to try.
I can offer powdercoating services :)
I'm sure many of you know this but if you are talking about the plate here, which is what was being discussed at this point in the thread, it would be difficult to do the plate. For a good "strong" powdercoat finish I think the recommended minimum radius on edges is .015 (1/64"). I may be smaller but the same issue arises in that it makes the manufacturing costs more. If you laser cut you won't get that on the top and bottom edges of the switch cutouts and you will risk chipping the coating. Also, it is difficult to control the thickness of powdercoating, especially around edges and cutouts. This would be too much of a tolerance variation to have uniformity and consistence for the fit of the switches in the plate. Now that you have read this ... if you were taling about a case, say aluminum, as opposed to the plate, forget what you just read. :)
John
PS ... How about a black oxide finish, like socket head cap screws ... boost ?
-
Answering things in no specific order.
- Making a few extra layout options don't take any time really. I've gotten this keyboard PCB thing under control by now =)
- I will add PCB mount holes to all switches, at least for the standard layouts. A few in the spacebar row may end up without them, and that is not because of fancy schmancy non-standard layouts.
- And the PCB mount stabilizer holes for the ISO enter really don't work well with some of the holes required for ANSI. So at least some of the stabilizer holes won't be possible to have drilled to size at manufacturing.
- I also think a Filco is a pretty price worthy candidate just for the case.. I find it hard to see how that price will be matched.
- And finally I had an epiphany yesterday.. Doing this whole thing to keep the winkey layout and just to get the programmable controller sounds kind of stupid actually. We should just do our own daughter boards to plug into the Filcos. I don't think they have changed theirs. So it should be pretty universal. The tenkeyless and fullsize uses different ones though.
-
I will go with the following layout options unless anyone I care enough for shouts loud enough ;) I totally forgot to add a Cherry spacebar row to any of the layouts, but it will of course be available. And as usual, don't get hung up on what the images actually says on the caps... And all non-overlapping options from different layouts will be combinable. But, there will only be mounting plates for the ones the mounting plate person decides. I think I will be able to squeeze in holes for PCB mount stabilizers for all the "regular" layouts as well.
- Filco ANSI
- Cherry ANSI
- Filco ISO
- Cherry ISO
- Filco Japanese
- "Realforce"
- "Symmetric"
- "Arrows"
If anyone knows the positions of the stems on the 4.50u spacebar I would be keen to know them. Or I will just pester Melissa with another question =D The "arrows" layout sports the same 4.50u spacebar.
[attach=2]
To be supported layouts
[attach=1]
-
- Filco ANSI
- Cherry ANSI
- Filco ISO
- Cherry ISO
What is the difference between Filco and Cherry? Winkey?
The cuttable pcb, is that of the table then? I haven't followed this one closely but I know it was discussed at some point.
Edit:
Regarding the spacebar, are you sure it isn't 4U?
4 units (76mm wide, 3 mounts, 28.5mm apart)
One center mount and two extra mounts 1.5 units (28.575mm) left and right of the center.
-
Yeah, with Cherry I mean winkeyless and 7.00u spacebar..
The other project to do a universal-Filco-replacement-board-to-solve-all-layout-options-once-and-for-all, will need to wait a while longer I suspect. I don't really know how interested people are to get one of those... But I think it may be a good middle way to have this board for the larger sizes and a separate one for the small footprint layouts.
This one will of course be possible to split between the navblock and the numpad as well, to fit either a tenkeyless or a fullsize.
-
Edit:
Regarding the spacebar, are you sure it isn't 4U?
4 units (76mm wide, 3 mounts, 28.5mm apart)
One center mount and two extra mounts 1.5 units (28.575mm) left and right of the center.
No, I see 6 x 1.25u + 3 x 1.00u, and that leaves 4.50u for the spacebar. Also SP (http://keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/DCSFamily.pdf) make 4.50u keys but no 4.00 ones...
-
Will it be a TKL or a Full?
Rather would have a TKL.
-
Will it be a TKL or a Full?
Rather would have a TKL.
Both.
Silly people not wanting a numpad... =P
-
Will it be a TKL or a Full?
Rather would have a TKL.
Both.
Silly people not wanting a numpad... =P
having a break-away numpad is an awesome idea. the silly people are those coming into a topic like this, and not reading the previous posts. :rolleyes:
-
i think the idea is not that the numpad is literally removable, but that the same pcb run can accommodate both layouts
ofc this requires designing two versions of the chassis, but if it's a dead simple backplate, that's not such a big challenge..
-
i think the idea is not that the numpad is literally removable, but that the same pcb run can accommodate both layouts
ofc this requires designing two versions of the chassis, but if it's a dead simple backplate, that's not such a big challenge..
yeah, i suppose me describing it as a 'break away numpad' is a bit misleading. either way, it's a great idea.
-
No I am actually thinking of a numpad part on the PCB that you can either leave there to build it into a full size filco (or whatever). Or you break the numpad off, and then it is also possible to mount a microcontroller on the break-away part to create a stand-alone numpad. It all depends on what cost less though. IT may be more cost effective to run two different PCB altogether. That is something we would need to investigate further.
-
can you actually run traces across board perforations with any of the fabs? also, i think maintaining the traces so that you both terminate in a uc OR route to the main board uc is going to be too much trouble for too little benefit, especially since it means that you can't do SMT pick-and-place to fab the numpad part of the pcb.
-
It would only be the second controller that can't be mounted, everything else should be ok. I was thinking to place a v-cut at the split line, and bridging it with 0 ohm smd resistors or using simple through hole jumpers.
(http://www.epectec.com/img/pro_19.gif)
-
i can see where this might break, but i don't know that it will be a problem. basically, if it's a 2-layer board and you need both layers through that junction, things could get ugly quickly. my feeling is though, that unless there's a lot of desire for a standalone numpad, this isn't something we should bother with. if it there is, however, then we might as well just do it right and build both up as one separate-able pcb with a uc placed on both ends and a flex connector that can allow them to be plopped into the same chassis
-
I don't want to say anything definitive. But the numpad is a 4x6 matrix including an extra optional row at the top, and three diodes, plus GND. That would be 14 jumpers or so, which isn't too bad =)
-
I think one PCB design that you can break off parts to make tenkeyless and a tenkey numpad separate is a great idea. And when it is a full size keyboard, it should just use one controller.
Features like this and features like the current Phantom being able to support multiple layout and configurations is what makes Phantom unique and awesome. There is no other custom PCB that can do this.
-
but but 2 ucs is TWICE THE COMPUTING POWER!!!!
-
Crazy idea... make the numpad totally separate, and have an internal usb connector on the main pcb. This way someone could either use it as a 'fullsize' with it in one case, or as a totally stand alone numpad/macro pad (since it should have it's own controller too) in it's own case solution. It would eliminate any question of routing traces, bridging issue and I don't think a lot of people will complain about having a 1 port usb hub added to main pcb to accommodate that. For those that don't wish to have a numpad, could be nice to be able to plug in the wireless dongle for the mouse or something.
-
bpiphany might complain about having a 1 port USB hub added to the main PCB, because there might not be room for a USB hub chip on the main PCB. Certainly it would make the PCB design more complicated. You would also have to figure out where to put the extra USB connector on the main PCB so the numpad can plug into. And where the extra USB wire between the numpad and the main PCB would go inside the case.
-
And finally I had an epiphany yesterday.. Doing this whole thing to keep the winkey layout and just to get the programmable controller sounds kind of stupid actually. We should just do our own daughter boards to plug into the Filcos. I don't think they have changed theirs. So it should be pretty universal. The tenkeyless and fullsize uses different ones though.
This is an excellent idea. Given their popularity, I would also recommend seeing if they are compatible with CMstorm (also has a removable controller).
-
And finally I had an epiphany yesterday.. Doing this whole thing to keep the winkey layout and just to get the programmable controller sounds kind of stupid actually. We should just do our own daughter boards to plug into the Filcos. I don't think they have changed theirs. So it should be pretty universal. The tenkeyless and fullsize uses different ones though.
This is an excellent idea. Given their popularity, I would also recommend seeing if they are compatible with CMstorm (also has a removable controller).
that is a fantastic idea. i'm not sure that it's a replacement for the phantom (since it allows for custom layouts, but with a optional replacement plate and a custom controller, that would be a game-changer for the filco for sure.
-
And finally I had an epiphany yesterday.. Doing this whole thing to keep the winkey layout and just to get the programmable controller sounds kind of stupid actually. We should just do our own daughter boards to plug into the Filcos. I don't think they have changed theirs. So it should be pretty universal. The tenkeyless and fullsize uses different ones though.
This is an excellent idea. Given their popularity, I would also recommend seeing if they are compatible with CMstorm (also has a removable controller).
I've started working on this a little. I reverse engineered the matrices of the Filco boards. Probably not for the first time, but this time I did them the easy way...
[attach=1]
Both the fullsize and the tenkeyless uses a 8 x 18 matrix, plus 2 or 3 lines for the LEDs. That is a couple of IO-pins too many to fit the Teensy ATmega32u4. The AT90USB1286 of the Teensy++ on the other hand has plenty, but that chip is a lot larger. A TQFP 32u2 barely fits the daughter board of the tenkeyless. Using a QFN package the 1286 fits as well. But the pads on that thing... =P I drew out a footprint. The pads are 0.25x0.40mm, and under the die. They sort of stick out at the sides and I think people actually solder them by hand every now and then, but that might just be out of my league.
[attach=2]
The 32u2 can be used together with an expander, like on the ergodox, of course. Or a simple BCD decoder, but in that case they better not change which pins are the rows...
-
Both the fullsize and the tenkeyless uses a 8 x 18 matrix, plus 2 or 3 lines for the LEDs. That is a couple of IO-pins too many to fit the Teensy ATmega32u4. The AT90USB1286 of the Teensy++ on the other hand has plenty, but that chip is a lot larger. A TQFP 32u2 barely fits the daughter board of the tenkeyless. Using a QFN package the 1286 fits as well. But the pads on that thing... =P I drew out a footprint. The pads are 0.25x0.40mm, and under the die. They sort of stick out at the sides and I think people actually solder them by hand every now and then, but that might just be out of my league.
I'd think that people would be turned off by soldering even TQFPs (which are not bad, honestly), so one might as well just go for the QFNs with whatever fab doing assembly.
Also, I think the QFN footprint needs thermal vias on the central pad. I did a QFN36 footprint a while back for a USB hub that never happened, and putting vias on it was not entirely pleasant via kicad. Maybe it's actually supported nowadays, though. Now that I think about it, solder paste layer coverage was something that needed oversight as well, as it has to be a percentage of the total area of the central pad.
Take a read through http://blog.screamingcircuits.com/qfn-and-dfn/ (some of the more interesting bits are on second page) when you have a chance, as that's where I got most of the info from.
-
KiCAD can do both percentage or an absolute difference between pads and solder mask (negative as well as positive). It would be nifty to be able to define the solder mask separately though. Since the thermal vias are supposed to be there I would probably include them in the footprint from start. You can name several pads the same, "VIA" for example =) If I were to use a QFN package I would probably take the opportunity to try mounting them with solder paste and hot air... But I think TQFP will be just fine, and I can solder them myself. I don't think a daughter board would be that very popular...
-
Just so everyone knows the current phantom fits perfectly into a PLU so its a cheap option for the current phantom.
I like the idea of doing a fullsize board for the second one especially if you can just lop off the numberpad and make it a tenkeyless.
Also please make a 7bit or 7bit esk option as since this keyboard is programmable i would like to be able to layer and the extra keys are needed to have Fn key or 2. Also the extra keys are just usefull especially once we get the programming behind what were doing. So i would like to see 4 additional keys above the numberpad and the numberpad have the option to be all one unit keys, as well as what was done with the phantom (i.e. keys between home cluster ans arrows,condensed function row, condensed number row, and small right and left shift.)
-
If the design for the Phantom is copied and extended into a fullsize, all the layouts of the Phantom would remain and still be available. It all just depends on the plates then.
-
If the design for the Phantom is copied and extended into a fullsize, all the layouts of the Phantom would remain and still be available. It all just depends on the plates then.
I personally liked this part about the Phantom alot and dont see why anyone wouldnt really...
-
Sorry if this has been previously discussed.. but..
How feasible would it be to get the phantom to be compatible with both the Filco TKL and the CM quickfire rapid?
Getting it working with the CM quickfire would make sourcing one of these from scratch much cheaper.
-
The quickfire looks like it could be a Filco clone. The important thing is that the distance between the different block of keys is the same. Differing mounting hole locations in the PCB is easier to work around. Do you have any pictures of the inside?
I'm going to drop the compressed function row and the 7bit spacebar row. Extra keys above the arrow block and numpad will still be there though. I'm aiming at having all the switches placed correctly later today.
-
I did a review of this a while ago and don't remember where I found the pics. The post that on filco is centered under F7/F8 is off to the left and the one under the A is a little different as well. Other than that they are identical.
-
Still waiting for a plate dwg to send to two machine shops. One has a lazer and one has a water jet
-
I actually don't know exactly why the CM quickfire rapid isn't compatible. Just that it isn't.
I will try to do more research and reply to this thread unless you guys beat me to it. (Won't be able to do this until at least tomorrow.)
-
Still waiting for a plate dwg to send to two machine shops. One has a lazer and one has a water jet
Waterjets won't cut it (pun)
I have yet to see a waterjet which can pull of these tolerances. Most laser cutters can.
-
Still waiting for a plate dwg to send to two machine shops. One has a lazer and one has a water jet
Waterjets won't cut it (pun)
I have yet to see a waterjet which can pull of these tolerances. Most laser cutters can.
It's not really that sensitive.. The switches and Cherry stabilizers slipped in quite nicely on my plates cut with a 0.8mm water jet. The Costar stabilizers require tighter tolerances though in my experience. There used to be dxf files around. They were lost in the "fire" i presume. These are the old tenkeyless phantom plates.
-
Still waiting for a plate dwg to send to two machine shops. One has a lazer and one has a water jet
Waterjets won't cut it (pun)
I have yet to see a waterjet which can pull of these tolerances. Most laser cutters can.
True that.
The first phantom prototype plate was waterjet cut. the jet was too big in that all the inside corners were round. That made it especially hard to install stabs without filing. The actual shipping Phantom plates are laser cut. They are much, much better. No filing necessary. In addition to that, the thinnest plates we can find is 1/16" thick. It is just a little too thick. But BiNiaRiS found a place to sand them down a bit before anodizing, and now they are just perfect.
-
Are the Phantom plate drawings and PCB drawing copyrighted? I managed to save copies before the Big One of '12, but I am hesitant to repost them without permission.
-
Technically they are, but bpiphany was PrinsValium and he's a nice guy and will undoubtedly reply this afternoon.
-
I don't know much about copyright technicalities =) But I think that stuff you make you kind of automatically achieve some sort of copyright over. The phantom plates are free for anyone to use though, and they are included in my attachment four posts up =D
-
So they are. When you said "old," I thought you meant there were newer versions which had been lost. :D
-
Was there a way to build the phantom so it was my modified 7bit layout but had an actual spacebar in the bottom row? Would this be possible with just a modified plate?
-
Not everyone knows what your layout was. There were 3 plates produced: ANSI, ISO and 7bit. The ANSI and ISO were plain vanilla except for 7bit switch spots in the nav cluster.
-
Not everyone knows what your layout was. There were 3 plates produced: ANSI, ISO and 7bit. The ANSI and ISO were plain vanilla except for 7bit switch spots in the nav cluster.
Your forgot they came with/without winkey, no? So 5 in total.
-
oh yeah... 1.25 and 1.5, but that's nothing to do with the 7bit stuff
-
Not everyone knows what your layout was. There were 3 plates produced: ANSI, ISO and 7bit. The ANSI and ISO were plain vanilla except for 7bit switch spots in the nav cluster.
i had a slightly modified left shift from standard 7bit it was iso instead of what 7bit wanted. My question is could i have had a ansi first row with a standard spacebar if the plate supported it. If so could someone modify the plate file for me so i could order one up?
-
Neat, there's 2 different 7bit layour images here: http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/phantom-custom-keyboard-group-buy-closed-t1411.html (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/phantom-custom-keyboard-group-buy-closed-t1411.html) one is iso left shift the other isn't.
According to the plate images, 7bit's is wonky/reverse iso
-
Neat, there's 2 different 7bit layour images here: http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/phantom-custom-keyboard-group-buy-closed-t1411.html (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/phantom-custom-keyboard-group-buy-closed-t1411.html) one is iso left shift the other isn't.
According to the plate images, 7bit's is wonky/reverse iso
yes that is the case and i though it was wonky as well and am happy with iso style. i am not however really getting used to having 4 spacebars. so if its possible to make the plate have just one big standard one with a plate modification i might go through the trouble of that. Im thinking standard ansi 1.25 mods first row.
-
I don't know much about copyright technicalities =) But I think that stuff you make you kind of automatically achieve some sort of copyright over. The phantom plates are free for anyone to use though, and they are included in my attachment four posts up =D
It almost sounds like you never heard of Open source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_hardware)? :eek: :p
Sure i'm in for the group buy if there is another one, i might even buy more than one, but i always like to have the option to have one made with a few modification of my own if the need comes... :)
-
Well as I said I don't really know much about it. But I think I am still technically the copyright holder. I just say that anyone is allowed to do whatever they want with it. I don't have the time or interest in reading up on different open source licenses...
-
yeah thats fine, anyway i was just fussing a little about it... :-X But yes, whatever you do, you're still the copyright holder.
-
This is the layout i made for a steampunk keyboard i want to build. I was looking to do something like this: http://www.rampkins.com/buccaneer_steampunk_kb_buildlog.html (http://www.rampkins.com/buccaneer_steampunk_kb_buildlog.html)
The Fn key i added is for programmable shortcut and adding things like play, stop, etc... Will it be possible to do this with the phantom rev 2?
-
This is the layout i made for a steampunk keyboard i want to build. I was looking to do something like this: http://www.rampkins.com/buccaneer_steampunk_kb_buildlog.html (http://www.rampkins.com/buccaneer_steampunk_kb_buildlog.html)
The Fn key i added is for programmable shortcut and adding things like play, stop, etc... Will it be possible to do this with the phantom rev 2?
layers are already working on the original phantom and media keys are probably soon to come as they are available on other keyboards that use the teensy.
-
The lazer guy got back to me $25.00 for whatever plate jdcarpe sent me first and he would be using .063” 5052-h32 aluminum.
I'll be asking him about finding .060" material and if he really can maintain +/- .002" since he doesn't say it outright. Any other questions?
I can't find the other thread talking about plates, UH60 or something like that.
-
Typically you can only get steel in .060 (That's 16 ga).
-
Would anyone be interested in a "Teensy" compatible (ATmega32u4) daughter controller board for their Filco tenkeyless?
[attach=1]
-
I would be interested in 3 or 4 of them.
-
bpiphany, would you be willing to help us make a Phantom Mini (60%) board? My GH60 keyboard thread basically turned into people wanting the Phantom PCB and plates, but cut down to 60% size. Controller would likely be ATMega32U4 based integrated onto the PCB (SMD) and mouting holes to fit a Poker case need to be included.
If so, maybe we could run both the Phantom Round 2 GB and the 60% GB at the same time.
-
I'd get 2
-
No more combining GBs. It wreaks havok all around.
ed: ate breakfast, came back fixed typo :)
-
Haha, okay.
-
That shouldn't be too hard to do either. The nice thing with a tenkeyless (and fullsize) is the space between the number and function row. There it is simple to squeeze in whatever components needed. It is far from impossible to manage it anyway, only a little bit trickier in placing everything smarter =)
Edit: Ok, perhaps I should open a new thread on the replacement controller at least...
-
I'd be in for a TKL or a 60%
-
I'd be in for a TKL or a 60%
same im just having fun building these things!!!
-
The lazer guy got back to me $25.00 for whatever plate jdcarpe sent me first and he would be using .063” 5052-h32 aluminum.
That's a great price. Contact details or is this favourville?
-
The lazer guy got back to me $25.00 for whatever plate jdcarpe sent me first and he would be using .063” 5052-h32 aluminum.
What number of plates was that quote for?
-
One
Any question you want me to ask him tell me now. (I'm sure we'll get price breaks for ordering more, I was going to ask :D )
-
That is a great price. Do you know of somewhere local to you to have it anodized?
-
That is a great price. Do you know of somewhere local to you to have it anodized?
Yes but there is a $500 setup charge and they have to weld on hooks. But maybe the hooks just for the 120 lbs, 25' aluminum bars we send them. I'm not 100% sure on the hooks or the pricing since most of that is done by a purchasing guy where I work, I just engineer it :D
-
If you're getting quotes for plates, send an RFQ to www.ohiolaser.com. For the ANSI phantom plate (87 TKL) they quoted me the following prices out of 1/16" cold rolled steel. I realize you may change material but give them a try.
Qty 1: $119.66 each
Qty 50: $10.22 each
Qty 100: $9.11 each
*** disclaimer *** I have no affiliation what-so-ever with these people. I just found them with Google.
-
That one is cheaper than my source for large number of stainless steel plates but more expensive than mine in smaller numbers. Mine were on the other hand 1.5mm thick and will probably not have to be sanded down a bit in thickness for a good fit. I think the perfect thickness was 1.5mm, right?
-
That one is cheaper than my source for large number of stainless steel plates but more expensive than mine in smaller numbers. Mine were on the other hand 1.5mm thick and will probably not have to be sanded down a bit in thickness for a good fit. I think the perfect thickness was 1.5mm, right?
.060" because metric sucks
(jk I like metric more)
-
FYI ...
1/16 = .0625
16ga = .0598
There are a few ways to measure "sheet metal"
-
That one is cheaper than my source for large number of stainless steel plates but more expensive than mine in smaller numbers. Mine were on the other hand 1.5mm thick and will probably not have to be sanded down a bit in thickness for a good fit. I think the perfect thickness was 1.5mm, right?
.060" because metric sucks
(jk I like metric more)
I might be getting some custom ones at a local place but back when i got the quote it was 62$ a plate for 4 plates. I will just be ordering 2 now as that is all i need. Also I will probably be selling 2 of my 7bit modified plates if anyone is interested.
-
That one is cheaper than my source for large number of stainless steel plates but more expensive than mine in smaller numbers. Mine were on the other hand 1.5mm thick and will probably not have to be sanded down a bit in thickness for a good fit. I think the perfect thickness was 1.5mm, right?
.060" because metric sucks
(jk I like metric more)
I might be getting some custom ones at a local place but back when i got the quote it was 62$ a plate for 4 plates. I will just be ordering 2 now as that is all i need. Also I will probably be selling 2 of my 7bit modified plates if anyone is interested.
That's a lot compared to my place.
-
That one is cheaper than my source for large number of stainless steel plates but more expensive than mine in smaller numbers. Mine were on the other hand 1.5mm thick and will probably not have to be sanded down a bit in thickness for a good fit. I think the perfect thickness was 1.5mm, right?
.060" because metric sucks
(jk I like metric more)
I might be getting some custom ones at a local place but back when i got the quote it was 62$ a plate for 4 plates. I will just be ordering 2 now as that is all i need. Also I will probably be selling 2 of my 7bit modified plates if anyone is interested.
That's a lot compared to my place.
I though yours were aluminium?
We need to make a list of places where we ask quotes, and also mention which material and what size was aksed about (60%, TKL or Full) as well as the number of plates.
-
That one is cheaper than my source for large number of stainless steel plates but more expensive than mine in smaller numbers. Mine were on the other hand 1.5mm thick and will probably not have to be sanded down a bit in thickness for a good fit. I think the perfect thickness was 1.5mm, right?
.060" because metric sucks
(jk I like metric more)
I might be getting some custom ones at a local place but back when i got the quote it was 62$ a plate for 4 plates. I will just be ordering 2 now as that is all i need. Also I will probably be selling 2 of my 7bit modified plates if anyone is interested.
That's a lot compared to my place.
I though yours were aluminium?
We need to make a list of places where we ask quotes, and also mention which material and what size was aksed about (60%, TKL or Full) as well as the number of plates.
Yup, 5052-h32 1/16" aluminum in what looked like a TKL layout (I just wanted a quote, if you want more just ask since I'll be sending him another email within a few days)
-
Just a reminder... .060 +/- .004 is extremely important for Costar stabs and plate mount Cherry stabs to lock onto the plate. It's only slightly less important for plate mount switches, but really should be adhered to.
-
Just a reminder... .060 +/- .004 is extremely important for Costar stabs and plate mount Cherry stabs to lock onto the plate. It's only slightly less important for plate mount switches, but really should be adhered to.
+/-.004" now? I was told +/-.002"
anyways tighter is better wink wink
-
Some have asked for stainless steel, which is why there is quite a large variation in price.
-
Some have asked for stainless steel, which is why there is quite a large variation in price.
I think I could get stainless steel, but I'm not sure if the laser he has is powerful enough. Is this something I should ask?
If you're getting quotes for plates, send an RFQ to www.ohiolaser.com. For the ANSI phantom plate (87 TKL) they quoted me the following prices out of 1/16" cold rolled steel. I realize you may change material but give them a try.
Qty 1: $119.66 each
Qty 50: $10.22 each
Qty 100: $9.11 each
*** disclaimer *** I have no affiliation what-so-ever with these people. I just found them with Google.
He got a quote for cold rolled steel, not stainless.
-
My quote was for stainless. and was probably so expensive because i only wanted a few.
-
My quote was for stainless. and was probably so expensive because i only wanted a few.
OHHHH ok, now I see why they were a bit high.
did you get .060" or 1/16" (since it's steel it should be .060")?
-
Ah, I read stainless somehow. Sure, ask away. I have a quote for $40 per TKL plate in low numbers in 1.5mm cold rolled stainless steel with rounded edges (so that they won't cut hands) and 2B finish.
-
My quote was for stainless. and was probably so expensive because i only wanted a few.
OHHHH ok, now I see why they were a bit high.
did you get .060" or 1/16" (since it's steel it should be .060")?
it was originally for 1/16 but i asked for another quote for just 2 plates using 0.060
-
+/-.004" now? I was told +/-.002"
anyways tighter is better wink wink
Now you are mixing tolerances. .002 is the hole sizing tolerance. .004 is the plate thickness tolerance.
-
+/-.004" now? I was told +/-.002"
anyways tighter is better wink wink
Now you are mixing tolerances. .002 is the hole sizing tolerance. .004 is the plate thickness tolerance.
Re-read, 100% clear now
So 1/16" plate would work right since it's within the +/- .004 of the plate thickness?
-
hey guys, i'm kinda new here and you might know this but i've found a place where you can buy leftover stock for cheaper than the market prices.
http://www.verical.com
the prices can vary a lot from day to day, but i've seen cherry mx switch for as low as 0.22$ a piece. Right now there is a deal for 396 pieces at 0.36$ and another for anything between 101 and 15904 at 0.50$ Sometime there is a link where you can make an offer.
Anyway looked like it was worth mentioning.. ;D
-
Interested in a poker/PURE size as well.
-
hey guys, i'm kinda new here and you might know this but i've found a place where you can buy leftover stock for cheaper than the market prices.
http://www.verical.com
the prices can vary a lot from day to day, but i've seen cherry mx switch for as low as 0.22$ a piece. Right now there is a deal for 396 pieces at 0.36$ and another for anything between 101 and 15904 at 0.50$ Sometime there is a link where you can make an offer.
Anyway looked like it was worth mentioning.. ;D
Seems pretty great. Why the odd sized batches at random times? Are they really new or refurbished stock, perhaps left overs or desoldered?
-
Re-read, 100% clear now
So 1/16" plate would work right since it's within the +/- .004 of the plate thickness?
Not necessarily because the plate you're looking at is not a perffect 1/16", it's 1/16" +/- some tolerance that may push it outside the envelope you are looking for.
-
^^^ Gottcha, I didn't think of that
"Ben, to answer your questions there are price breaks for larger quantities. We should be able to hold that tolerance and we can do stainless steel but the price will be a lot more."
My laser guy got back to me on the tolerance question, price breaks and different materials
-
Apparently aluminium is less prone to get sharp edges because it is rather soft and melts more easily. Stainless steel can get sharp when cut which is why they send the parts through a brushing machine to both get the surface right and to deburr.
-
Apparently aluminium is less prone to get sharp edges because it is rather soft and melts more easily. Stainless steel can get sharp when cut which is why they send the parts through a brushing machine to both get the surface right and to deburr.
Even on a laser cutting? Do lasers give clean edges, because I've heard they are a bit messy (I haven't seen much lasered aluminum since I work in the office and only go into the plant if there is a problem)
-
Seems pretty great. Why the odd sized batches at random times? Are they really new or refurbished stock, perhaps left overs or desoldered?
Basically verical.com is like overstock.com but for electronic components. All the quantity and prices are from live stocks that can be shipped quickly. Everything is still under manufacturer warranty. Anyway, there is an introduction video on the front page if you want to know more...
-
hey guys, i'm kinda new here and you might know this but i've found a place where you can buy leftover stock for cheaper than the market prices.
http://www.verical.com
the prices can vary a lot from day to day, but i've seen cherry mx switch for as low as 0.22$ a piece. Right now there is a deal for 396 pieces at 0.36$ and another for anything between 101 and 15904 at 0.50$ Sometime there is a link where you can make an offer.
Anyway looked like it was worth mentioning.. ;D
Holy crap, that's awesome. Thanks for posting!
Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk 2
-
+/-.004" now? I was told +/-.002"
anyways tighter is better wink wink
Now you are mixing tolerances. .002 is the hole sizing tolerance. .004 is the plate thickness tolerance.
The local place i tried going to can only do a tolerance of +/- 0.005 which i assume isnt good enough is it?
-
+/-.004" now? I was told +/-.002"
anyways tighter is better wink wink
Now you are mixing tolerances. .002 is the hole sizing tolerance. .004 is the plate thickness tolerance.
The local place i tried going to can only do a tolerance of +/- 0.005 which i assume isnt good enough is it?
got word back from bpiphany:
"If you look at the datasheet for the switches 0.005" is close to good enough on most numbers. I had plates water cut with at least a larger radius. I don't know how good their overall accuracy was. My corners were a bit too round, but that was no problem either. I can't make any promises but I think you would be doing fine with that tolerances. The most crucial parts turned out to be the costar stabilizers. You may need to do a tad of filing to get them to seat properly.
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm"
-
Got my custom plates from the laser cutter today and their really nice and fit the switches perfectly.
-
Care to share the company name so I can send the some designs for quotes?
-
o sure i didnt even think about that
American-3 Fab, Inc.
1850 Cofrin Dr.
Green Bay, WI 54302
Ph: 920-569-1880
Fax: 920-569-1885
-
Interested.
-
Are there going to be chamge to the pcb in round 2 so many designs have been heading towards smd.
-
i`ll join
-
yes, i think bpiphany's going to work on a revised phantom pcb after he finished up the filco replacement controller stuff
-
Yes, this is a priority design project =) The controller business may calm down a bit soon, I hope... I've done my soldering practice now =P
-
.
-
Yes, this is a priority design project =) The controller business may calm down a bit soon, I hope... I've done my soldering practice now =P
yes thanks for all the practice, cant wait to get mine!