geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: birthdaymonkey on Thu, 09 August 2012, 08:30:33
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I currently own a white 45g 87U and I like it a lot now (of course it took some getting used to compared to Cherry).
It's bothered me since I got it though that it doesn't really match the rest of my computer gear, which is of course black or dark grey. So I've been thinking of getting a black Realforce and swapping the keys. That way, the appearance of both boards would be jazzed up a bit (I like the contrast between black and white), they'd both have some black to match my computers, and I'd be on Topre both at home and at work, which would presumably make me a faster, more accurate typist. (Right now I switch between Topre at work and blues at home.)
Before I get another 45g, however, I'd like to try a 55g Topre, but there are numerous complications to this. First, they seem to be hard to come by. EK has no black ones at the moment and no ETA on a new shipment. Second, if I did get a 55g and loved it, it would probably make me want to get another 55g white board so I'd have the same keys on both my keyboards. This means more $$$ and the hassle of selling my current 45g white board.
So, what should I do? Is the 55g really that different from the 45g? If I like blues best of the Cherry switches, would I probably prefer the heavy weight of the 55g switches?
I know this comes down to personal preference, but I'd appreciate any opinions. :)
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Loved the 55g as its heavy with a unique feel. You can purchase the 103 55g from ek or post a Wtb.
Imo 55g is the best topre keys. Hope the get something heavier like 70g
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I was in the same situation as you about 2 monthes ago. I had a 45g topre, and mx blues were my favorite cherry switches. I went for the 55g and found that I liked it much more than both the 45g and the mx blues. The 55g gives you the tactility that really makes you feel what topre is all about; "oneness with cup rubber" as topre likes to call it.
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I just bought boost's 55g. And I must say, I'm loving it more and more (I also own a 45g). Personally, I love them both. The 45g is great at work for long days of programming. However, I found the 45g was actually kind of annoying for me to game on, as I couldn't comfortably rest my fingers on the keys without registering an accidental press.
Come to think of it, I have the same problem with Cherry Reds.
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if you can't find the color you want at EK, check out the classifieds here. a number of people are selling 55gs right now; wasn't someone selling a 10th anniversary edition? it's not pure black, but dark gray/dark blue, and looks extremely good imo (although my bias may be due to it being my primary and only topre board :D)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34324.0
(sorry about your wallet :)
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I feared this would be the consensus. I owe it to myself to try the 55g before I buy anything else! I have a feeling that I'm going to end up buying a black *and* a white before the year is out. I guess I'll just have to wait for the right opportunity to come along. If anyone has a black 87-key Realforce 55g...
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imo.. 45g for realforce is rare but i wouldn't say it's better than 55g. to me 55g is perfect. i dun get tired for long period of typing or gaming.
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If you can afford it, get the 55g and test it out! Otherwise you'll be forever wondering! You can always sell it if you don't like it.
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imo a 55g topre 87u is the best daily driver keyboard you can buy with money.
the only thing i've tried that rivals it is reaper's stickered and lubed KMAC blacks
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imo a 55g topre 87u is the best daily driver keyboard you can buy with money.
What if you wanted to buy a keyboard with something besides money? O_o
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imo a 55g topre 87u is the best daily driver keyboard you can buy with money.
What if you wanted to buy a keyboard with something besides money? O_o
Unless you have CC's you're in the wrong place buddy.
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I've tried 55g and 45g (and variable) and prefer the 45s. You lose some of the buttery smooth feeling with the heavier switch imo. And I love MX blues.
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I've tried 55g and 45g (and variable) and prefer the 45s. You lose some of the buttery smooth feeling with the heavier switch imo. And I love MX blues.
Maybe I'll end up preferring 45g... but until I buy a 55g how will I know??! If only some kind soul were willing to loan me their 55g. I'd give 'er back, promise! ;)
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The 45g is great at work for long days of programming. However, I found the 45g was actually kind of annoying for me to game on, as I couldn't comfortably rest my fingers on the keys without registering an accidental press.
I've got an HHKB Pro 2 since a few days and I like it a lot but I keep actuating 'd' and 'k' by mistake when resting my keys on the keyboard. Too many years of IBM Model M'ing I guess ; )
Worse, because the keys are not 'clicky' it can happen that I actuate the key without even realizing it immediately :-/
I'll see if I can get used to it otherwise I'll sell my HHKB Pro 2 and try to find a 'heavier' Topre-based board.
But one thing is sure: I find these Topres switches amazing. It's the first switch I try besides the buckling spring that I do actually like (tried a few Cherrys and white ALPS but no love for these here ; )
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Is there anywhere to buy 55g Topre springs? I'd like to switch my HHKB for 55g :D
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for gaming i switched from 45grf to 55grf topre.
and for readability i switched to the 80s style white/gray version ;)
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for gaming i switched from 45grf to 55grf topre.
and for readability i switched to the 80s style white/gray version ;)
Same for gaming. But I stopped needing to read my keyboard long, long ago. Even though the AE printing is perfectly legible.
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It seems that many people prefer the 55g over the 45g board. Doesn't anyone reading this thread use a variable Realforce (30/45/50)?
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I had a variable but I HATE the 30's I absolutely loathe them, there were quite a few times when I thought my keyboard was broken cause it was spamming QQQQQQ, or AAAAA, but I look down and realize my fingers resting on the keyboard actuated the switch, they feel super mushy, and don't even feel like a switch at all to me. I don't mind the 45s at all, but I like the heavier actuation force i.e. 50s and 55s, they definitely feel like they have more spring when pressed.
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I had a variable which I loved until I tried a uniform.
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The 35g keys just felt really out of place unless you're typing "properly" and actually using your pinkies for those keys. My first topre experience was with the variables.
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Despite all the 'popping' going on with 55g is it still quieter than Browns?
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Wow. Such necro.
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55g is king switch
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55g is king switch
Truth teller!
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Threads like these are the reason why I can't make up my mind on which topre to buy.
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I would pay quite a lot of money to put 55g Topre switches in an ErgoDox. Some might consider the amount ... "obscene".
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It's all individual. I bought a F660C and loved the feel immediately. I bought a 87U 45g used ( a little ratty) and thought it was too light (but my fingers happily tap dance on it). So I bought a 55g and thought too heavy. I gave it time and it does feel better. I'll probably switch back to 45. For me there is no perfection. You have to try them out for yourself. No ones experience is going to tell you what you will like best.
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Threads like these are the reason why I can't make up my mind on which topre to buy.
Get both, sell the one you like least :)
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Threads like these are the reason why I can't make up my mind on which topre to buy.
Get both, sell the one you like least :)
Sounds like the geekhack motto!
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Id prefer 45g
55g are to heavy for me.
But its all about opinion
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I think 45 gr suits smaller or average guy, while 55 gr suits big guy like me.
I'm 6.2" or 185 cm tall, 93 kg weight.
I prefer the 55 gr it has very good tactile feel, the king of switch really.
I also have uniform full size 104 UB-Dk uniform 45 gr, it's good, but the 87U 55 gr is the best feel imo.
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I think 45 gr suits smaller or average guy, while 55 gr suits big guy like me.
I'm 6.2" or 185 cm tall, 93 kg weight.
I prefer the 55 gr it has very good tactile feel, the king of switch really.
I also have uniform full size 104 UB-Dk uniform 45 gr, it's good, but the 87U 55 gr is the best feel imo.
I doubt it has anything to do with body size aha. :))
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I think 45 gr suits smaller or average guy, while 55 gr suits big guy like me.
I'm 6.2" or 185 cm tall, 93 kg weight.
I prefer the 55 gr it has very good tactile feel, the king of switch really.
I also have uniform full size 104 UB-Dk uniform 45 gr, it's good, but the 87U 55 gr is the best feel imo.
I doubt it has anything to do with body size aha. :))
Well for me there is, if you compare a guy which is 50 kg weight with NBA player which is 120 kg weight.
NBA player will feel 55 gr topre light ;D
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55g is where it's at
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55g is where it's at
Yes, yes it is.
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It all comes down to personal preference. I really prefer 45g. If I go 35g I end up accidentally pressing keys all the time. I typed on 55g and I can see why some people like it. The added resistance makes the stroke feel smoother coming up. However, lubing the slider grooves and adding dampers on the plungers under the top plate feels just as smooth as 55g did.
You'll have to go to a GH meet-up and try one out in person.
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Here’s my mini review of the realforce 87u 45g, 55g & variable silence.
If you’ve been here for a while, you know that no matter what the review says, keyboard is still very personal just like music.
It might be useful to know what the reviewer’s preferences are, and if they align with yours their review might be a useful datapoint.
My personal preferences are light switches, fast debounce and tactile feedback. Oh and I like to bottom out (naturally for MX I prefer brown).
I got the 87u 45g first and I like it quite a bit. However the slower debounce (compared to MX) and the up clack annoy me. Also the thock isn’t as prominent as video you see on youtube with the Leopold FC600C or HHKB. However I like it enough to keep it side by side with my MX-brown QFR.
When someone mentioned that the 55g doesn’t suffer as much of a slower debounce, I was quite excited. But after I got it, I found that it isn’t true at all. I don’t have scientific data to back it up but I feel no difference between the two in that regard. However the up clack is not as loud as the 45g, maybe because I bottom out so hard on the 45g and the 55g has more resistance. It’s similar to when I type on the mx-clear board. It’s fighting back when I try to bottom out verse for mx-brown I floor it every single keystroke.
Overall the 55g is not an improvement for me compared to the 45g.
Next I got a variable silence. I would have gotten it instead of the 45g as my first topre if not for the fact that it was quite a bit more expensive a while ago (now it’s only $235) and the possibility that I could dental mod the 45g.
Now the variable silence is a very good topre for light switch lover. It’s effortless to type on and the up clack is almost non-existent. However the down side is that the thock is also gone. Personally the up side outweighs it. If there is a way to keep the thock but not the up clack that would be my ideal topre keyboard (sans thick keycaps!).
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I prefer 45. Light switches are easier to type quickly on for me. I'm already up to 10% faster on my RF :D
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Here’s my mini review of the realforce 87u 45g, 55g & variable silence.
If you’ve been here for a while, you know that no matter what the review says, keyboard is still very personal just like music.
It might be useful to know what the reviewer’s preferences are, and if they align with yours their review might be a useful datapoint.
My personal preferences are light switches, fast debounce and tactile feedback. Oh and I like to bottom out (naturally for MX I prefer brown).
I got the 87u 45g first and I like it quite a bit. However the slower debounce (compared to MX) and the up clack annoy me. Also the thock isn’t as prominent as video you see on youtube with the Leopold FC600C or HHKB. However I like it enough to keep it side by side with my MX-brown QFR.
When someone mentioned that the 55g doesn’t suffer as much of a slower debounce, I was quite excited. But after I got it, I found that it isn’t true at all. I don’t have scientific data to back it up but I feel no difference between the two in that regard. However the up clack is not as loud as the 45g, maybe because I bottom out so hard on the 45g and the 55g has more resistance. It’s similar to when I type on the mx-clear board. It’s fighting back when I try to bottom out verse for mx-brown I floor it every single keystroke.
Overall the 55g is not an improvement for me compared to the 45g.
Next I got a variable silence. I would have gotten it instead of the 45g as my first topre if not for the fact that it was quite a bit more expensive a while ago (now it’s only $235) and the possibility that I could dental mod the 45g.
Now the variable silence is a very good topre for light switch lover. It’s effortless to type on and the up clack is almost non-existent. However the down side is that the thock is also gone. Personally the up side outweighs it. If there is a way to keep the thock but not the up clack that would be my ideal topre keyboard (sans thick keycaps!).
Hey, I just read this, and I like your review and I agree with your findings. However, you cannot use the term "debounce" to describe a Topre switch. The phenomenon and feeling that you are describing regarding the upstroke on your Topre keyboard is not "debounce", since Topre uses an electro-capacitive system that avoids bounce and the need for debounce. Simply put, there is no bounce, because there is no metal on metal contact in the Topre switch. That is the great benefit of the Topre switch, and that is what separates Topre from being "just another rubber dome", as many of the unenlightened masses wrongly assert.
Bounce and debounce are terms used to describe what happens when two metallic surfaces meet in an electric switch. The signal can "bounce". Bouncing is the tendency of any two metal contacts in an electronic device to generate multiple signals as the contacts close or open; "debouncing" is any kind of hardware device or software that ensures that only a single signal will be acted upon for a single opening or closing of a contact.
The Topre electrostatic capacitive switch does not use a physical metal part to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance. Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard switching technologies. Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix. Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it. When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it. As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes. The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location.
Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have no signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact. Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time. Contact bounce can produce very noticeable and undesired effects. In a way, you could argue that the entire Topre switch is in effect a "debounce" strategy, but this would really be straining the plain meaning of debounce, because debounce is really an attempt to mitigate bounce, whereas Topre switches eliminate bounce altogether. A better descriptor would be "no-bounce".
Anyway, good review, but don't use the word "debounce" to describe Topre. You can continue to use debounce in regards to Cherry MX switches, because they need it.
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I pm'd you.
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You're probably right that I misused the term debounce.
But "returning to normal position after key presses" is too wordy.
Basically you can do way faster on MX than topre with this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZhm9LHJ9Sw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZhm9LHJ9Sw)
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It's all individual. I bought a F660C and loved the feel immediately. I bought a 87U 45g used ( a little ratty) and thought it was too light (but my fingers happily tap dance on it). So I bought a 55g and thought too heavy. I gave it time and it does feel better. I'll probably switch back to 45. For me there is no perfection. You have to try them out for yourself. No ones experience is going to tell you what you will like best.
I'm old too Mr. C. Turn 57 in April. And I've been banging on keyboards since 1983 with my first IBM 8088 with dial 5.25 floppies.
I currently have a 55g 87U, a variable silent 87U and an HHKB Pro2 as my primary boards. While I do love the snappy feel of the 55g switch, it's too heavy at times. I spend a lot of time these days on my variable. I'll probably pick up a 45g uni before long.
Some of this preference might be related to keyboard layout, however. I switched to Colemak a little over a year ago, and much of the typing is done on home row. Fingers don't travel much. For me, the heavier switches are a bit heavy with fingers right above the keys.
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It's all individual. I bought a F660C and loved the feel immediately. I bought a 87U 45g used ( a little ratty) and thought it was too light (but my fingers happily tap dance on it). So I bought a 55g and thought too heavy. I gave it time and it does feel better. I'll probably switch back to 45. For me there is no perfection. You have to try them out for yourself. No ones experience is going to tell you what you will like best.
I'm old too Mr. C. Turn 57 in April. And I've been banging on keyboards since 1983 with my first IBM 8088 with dial 5.25 floppies.
I currently have a 55g 87U, a variable silent 87U and an HHKB Pro2 as my primary boards. While I do love the snappy feel of the 55g switch, it's too heavy at times. I spend a lot of time these days on my variable. I'll probably pick up a 45g uni before long.
Some of this preference might be related to keyboard layout, however. I switched to Colemak a little over a year ago, and much of the typing is done on home row. Fingers don't travel much. For me, the heavier switches are a bit heavy with fingers right above the keys.
Luxury, having floppy drives in a computer back then.
We took mechanical keyboards for granted back in those days.