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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: gvfarns on Mon, 20 August 2012, 22:38:17
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I really prefer the shiny surface of a well-used keyboard but I don't want to wait until I've typed enough on mine to have a shine. I've been kicking around ways of getting them buffed and shiny the way I like them, and I'm interested in your suggestions. I've got ABS keytops (CMstorm quickfire rapid).
There are sort of three levels of wear I'm interested in, and I'm not sure which one I really want at the moment.
1. Just wear off the matte finish so they shine but leave the ink of the letters mostly intact.
2. Wear off the ink of the letters but maintain the original shape of the key top
3. Wear off the little bump on the F and J keys so those are smooth as well (wear on the edges of the keys is also ok). I do hate those bumps.
I have been thinking about using maybe a pencil eraser to accomplish #1. Or do you think some kind of light abrasive is necessary?
Actually, the paint of the letters on the CMstorm is very thick. Thick enough that I can feel it pretty well as I type. I would be happy to flatten or completely remove this, even if it makes my keyboard blank. The font is ugly anyway and the logo on the spacebar completely unwanted. So I guess that argues for #2.
For now, let's table discussion of just getting a new set of keytops without letters. I prefer DIY when possible, and I wouldn't mind wearing off the tops of the letter keys and keeping some less common keys intact, for example.
What do you think? Best way to wear out keytops?
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I think the best way is to rub them on a sock. sounds weird but it works. just put the suck over your hand and start rubbing, making sure the curvature of they keycap is going with your finger.
It doesn't take long at all to get shiny. it might even go fast than you expect, and start eating away plastic.
as for the little nubs on F and J, you can just carefully scoop them off with a razor. then use the sock method to smooth it out.
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Interesting! I assume it should take a number of minutes. I just tried it for a little while and I don't see any difference yet. It sounds weird to say this, but does the sock need to be dirty (so there is some grit in there)? Perhaps I just need a little more patience? Or maybe a non-cotton sock?
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Couldn't you just buy the shiniest most-used DS set you can find for a few dollars? The F and J keys don't even have nubs to begin with.
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I usually turn the sock inside out. I think its the heat/friction that does it, so you kinda gotta press hard.
EDIT: I just tried this again on some abs caps and it didn't really work. I don't remember what type of keycaps I tried it on before, but it ate through it like nothing.
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I would trade newer/less used keycaps with someone for shiny/used keycaps. I'd look for the tenkey on POS keyboards first.
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I think I might use my dremmel tool to grind off the nubs on the J and F, then put one of the cloth buffers on it (used for polishing jewelry...if you add grit) and see if I can't make a key amazing. I'll start with the spare keys that came with my set so I don't mess up my main set. I'll let you guys know how it works out.
By the way, I hate to be obtuse, but I'm not sure about the acronyms you guys have used. When you say POS, you are referring to point-of-sale keyboards (like at cash registers) right? And DS keyboards is a brand located mainly in Europe?
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POS - point of service... DS - double shot (dual injection molded plastic, 1 color for legends, 1 color for remainder)
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POS - point of service... DS - double shot (dual injection molded plastic, 1 color for legends, 1 color for remainder)
Never see it spelled out as "point of service". Pretty sure "point of sale" is correct
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POS = Point-Of-Sale. DS = DoubleShot.
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1000-2000 grit sand paper and then hit it with a soft cotton cloth and polishing compound.
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Some cleaners shine the piss out of keyboards. At my college they spray some stuff on a cloth and wipe the tops of the keycaps for a few seconds. This turns them permanently "shiny" in a sort of non-plastic safe way.
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Never see it spelled out as "point of service". Pretty sure "point of sale" is correct
So when you are at the customer service desk and they use a POS KB, are they selling you anything? Service is the more universal word, it's also perfectly valid either way.
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http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/POS/index.htm (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/POS/index.htm)
Cherry themselves call them Point-Of-Sale.
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Oh, sorry... all hail the mighty god Cherry, there is no other possibility.
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We are talking about CHERRY POS boards, so why would we NOT call them by the name they gave them?
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Not for nothing, but this is the first time anyone specified Cherry POS.
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What other POS boards would dorkvader be talking about? What other MX POS boards are common/cheap enough to get outside of Europe? I have NEVER heard Point-Of-"Service" before, so how is it "the more universal word"? It may be more politically correct, but that doesn't make it correct.
Here's wikipedia, and nowhere does it mention an alternate meaning of "Service".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sale)
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Ed, you need to chill out. There is nothing incorrect or invalid about my response. If you really want I can go change the wiki and then someone else with a bigger bug can go undo it and if I gave a hoot I could go make my change stick. First you state Cherry POS, that's a brand and they make POS keyboards. Then you state MX POS, that's a switch type and several companies make POS boards w/ MX switches.
In the industry I'm in, it's service. In other industries it's sales. Doesn't make one more right, and googling point of service keyboard will still get you what you're looking for. Attacking me over it is silly.
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Cherry POS boards are what you can get here in America. Other MX POS boards are common in Europe. The wiki is still borked, I don't know where you're looking. I did NOT google Point-Of-Sale, I googled POS. If I google Point-Of-Service I get "A point of service plan, or POS plan, is a type of managed care health insurance system."...
Basically Point-Of-Service must just be a slang term that some people use as far as I can tell.
EDIT: Let's get BACK ON TOPIC.
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You guys crack me up. Thanks for the clarifications, though.
The notion (mentioned above) of enlisting the aid of a chemical is very interesting. One of the "downsides" of ABS (as I understand it) is that it is susceptible to chemicals like alcohol. It seems like it would be nice to be able to polish them without taking them off the keyboard, and the alcohol wouldn't leave any residue or mess to clean up. Perhaps a cloth with isopropyl alcohol on it would do the trick? I have some mineral spirits if that's not aggressive enough.
Or the dremmel tool with a cotton tip with whatever small amount of abrasive happens to be left in it. I guess i could use that in place, but I do worry about damaging the stems or something.
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Since I am an old guy who worked in engineering and architectural offices since the 1970s, I have an electric eraser.
I am sure that it the best tool for the job.
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Novus Plastic Polish? http://www.novuspolish.com/
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For those wondering, I was not referrnig to only cherry POS keyboards. My access POS 'boards, for example, have very shiny keycaps the old IBM ose we had before we replaced all the POS machines was also very shiny.
My current cherry POS board was NIB, and therefore not that shiny.
I have always seen point of sale in the past, but I don't see why point of service wouldn't also be a legitimate way of referring to them. I mean, as long as everyone knows what we're talking about, then we've met or exceeded the goal of language.
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Ok I tried rubbing it with a paper towel with alcohol on it for 30 seconds. No change. Repeated the experiment with mineral spirits. Amazingly, there was still no change. I'm gaining a new respect for ABS.
I'm going to see what results I can get with the dremmel. Though I do have some novus. Novus is just messy enough that I have to remove all the keys and I just got the back on after installing O rings. I'd rather do something in place, but if it comes to that, I'll take them off and do the plastic polish thing.
Will check back with results from the dremmel in a bit.
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OK, I put some polishing compound (the stuff for polishing jewelry) on a cotton tip (or wool, whatever it is) and went at it with my dremmel (well, with my drill). After not too long the key started to look like it had been used for a while. The results you can get from 30 seconds or so per key are surprisingly subtle, and somehow the letters are still perfectly intact. I'm kind amazed how hard it is to induce wear on these things. Of course I'm only putting small amounts of time in at a time. I'm seriously considering putting the metal brush tip on. I'll try it on a spare key first.
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Just find a non-plastic-safe cleaner at the store. I would think that would be easier than polishing each key individually.
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thumbs up for the old guys.............
Since I am an old guy who worked in engineering and architectural offices since the 1970s, I have an electric eraser.
I am sure that it the best tool for the job.
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Just find a non-plastic-safe cleaner at the store. I would think that would be easier than polishing each key individually.
Yes, I think that might be the right way to go eventually. I have now tried several things:
* The metal brush tip on the dremel was crap. Actually made the surface rougher
* The dremel grinding tool was amazing and worked perfectly to remove the bumps on the F and J. Yay! Not good for making the keys smooth, though.
* I started dremeling the whole thing with polishing compound and felt (or whatever it is). 10 seconds per key. On my second key I ran into a problem: the tool got hot and melted the plastic. Made an ugly rough spot. Bad idea. The dremel thing works but it requires care and patience.
* Used 400 grit sandpaper to remove that rough spot. It worked ok. Buffed it with the dremel. Maybe the 1000 grit thing was the way to go. I just don't have any.
* Unfortunately my wife gave away our Novus just the other day. Not worth buying for this purpose.
Sigh. So...any ideas on a non-plastic-safe cleaner? I can't believe the mineral spirits didn't do anything to it. Maybe 30 seconds wasn't enough time.
Edit: even more amazingly, fingernail polish remover didn't do anything to it either (though it did seem to affect the paint). I thought ABS was susceptible to attack by acetone. That stuff stinks, though. Not sure I want to work with it for long.
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Acetone will most likely work TOO well... But you are free to try it. Maybe dilute it first.
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ask someone not in IT or not in the service/sales industry what POS stands for and you'll likely hear "Piece Of $hit"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pos (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pos)
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Acetone will most likely work TOO well... But you are free to try it. Maybe dilute it first.
I was just gonig to suggest diluting acetone with a lot of water. That might achieve the best (and certainly the fsatest) results.
Ltke always, dilute it a ton(like 1:100), and make sure it isn't too strong by trying it with a Q-tip on the underside of the spacebar. Try that and up the molarity as necessary.
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ask someone not in IT or not in the service/sales industry what POS stands for and you'll likely hear "Piece Of $hit"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pos (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pos)
That was actually my first thought when I read it. But then he was talking about it being shiny, so I figured that wasn't what he meant.
My fingernail polish remover (which is basically diluted acetone, I believe) test didn't seem to do much. These dang keys are just too tough. I may get some actual acetone and try again. Or maybe it soaked into it or did something else but left the surface rough. Tough to say because my test keys are getting a little beat up here...
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I got some pretty pure acetone from my roommate for testing ABS vs. other. It can "melt" ABS pretty quick, so you should be careful.
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I usually turn the sock inside out. I think its the heat/friction that does it, so you kinda gotta press hard.
EDIT: I just tried this again on some abs caps and it didn't really work. I don't remember what type of keycaps I tried it on before, but it ate through it like nothing.
Imagining someone sitting at their desk rubbing keycaps with a sock just makes me giggle.
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Just as a follow-up, after all the things I have tried without real success, I've decided to shine my keys the old fashioned way...by typing on them for a long time. The removal of the nubs on F and J made a big difference in how nice it is to type on this keyboard and now I don't feel as unhappy with these keytops as I used to. That kind of took the wind out of the sails of my desire to perfect them.
I would like to get rid of the letters, though. They stick up too high and I can feel them. I guess I'll eventually have to buy a set of blank caps (for the letter keys, anyway) before I'll be completely satisfied. Thank goodness for WASD.
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Just buy some cherry DS... You can shine them all you want, and the lettering will always be there. Or you can buy them pre-shined (used) for cheaper. There is only a dot nub on the numpad 5 key as well.
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Have you tried toothpaste? I know it sounds stupid but it works. I used to build model cars and guys used toothpaste to buff the plastic bodies. Since keycap plastics and model plastics are nearly the same I bet the toothpaste trick would work well. If you are interested I can find out the exact brand most guys use.
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Have you tried toothpaste? I know it sounds stupid but it works. I used to build model cars and guys used toothpaste to buff the plastic bodies. Since keycap plastics and model plastics are nearly the same I bet the toothpaste trick would work well. If you are interested I can find out the exact brand most guys use.
In theory any abrasive slurry would work. Toothpaste is an interesting example, though. I'd give it a shot.
Also: Yep. Everything's made from ABS these days. Models, keycaps, etc. Even "fancy" structural plastics (casing on laptops, etc.) are often ABS+PC. I think I saw an ABS +PBT once, though don't hold me to that.
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My friend has a box of methyl wipes that he uses to clean his table, etc. He was telling me he used them to clean his keyboard and it immediately made his matte keys shiny. I think this may be a very cheap option for you to try. His keys are ABS too.
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Methyl wipes? I can't think of any product matching the description. I assume we are not talking about wipes with Methyl alcohol in them. Methyl isobutyl ketone? Or methyl ethyl ketone? Methyl propyl ketone?
Maybe I could write on the keys with dry erase markers and wipe it off with a soft cloth. They use one of those, I believe.
Do you have more guidance on what product it was your friend used?
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Denim works good for polishing plastics and skuff marks on soft metals, at least from my experiences. The edges on my mouse have been getting chewed up because I've been too cheap/lazy to order some new skates, but I rub the sucker on my jeans for a few and you'd never realize that the edge is slowly disappearing aside from it being a little shiny. Same goes for my girlfriends jewelry when it starts getting scuffed up from normal wear, if it's that bad I'll use the cloth brush and rubbing compound on the dremmel, but most the time a few min. with some denim works wonders, lol.
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I'm fairly certain the wipes he used were methylated spirits-based, so yes, the active compound would be methanol or methyl ethyl ketone (both common additives in methylated spirits) acting as a solvent. I'm recalling this from a conversation with him and another mech keyboard-enthusiast friend, who also remarked that methylated spirits are pretty "bad" in that sense (for people that DON'T like shiny keys). Worth a try?
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ask someone not in IT or not in the service/sales industry what POS stands for and you'll likely hear "Piece Of $hit"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pos (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pos)
ask someone not in IT or not in the service/sales industry what FILCO stands for and you'll likely hear " fa... " wait we wont go there.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pos (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pos)
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What was the person above me trying to say? Something about filco?
I wonder if a hot air gun would be able to slightly melt the surface of the keycaps to make them shiny...
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OP, why don't you try to sand it with 500 grit sandpaper to remove all lettering, then move to 1000grit, and finally polish with fine 2000grit sandpaper?
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I gave an example key a more determined work over with fingernail polish remover (acetone). If you put enough on and leave it (before it dries) it does soften both the letters and the keytop, but when I tried rubbing it off, somehow it ended up matte instead of shiny, but now with the white from the letter spread around, making it light grey. Not really a good outcome.
I asked my wife to pick up some 2000 grit sandpaper. I'll give it a quick going over with that and hopefully we will see some good results. Based on what I've seen, it seems like mechanical polishing is more likely than chemical means to bring about a shiny surface, even if we do find chemicals that successfully attack the surface.
Maybe I should get a different head on my dremel. The one I'm using right now is clearly for buffing jewelry, as is the polishing compound I'm using.
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Hey, if you want shiny caps, I got a great set for you. They came from a Desko BMOL 4000, which if you know keyboards, then you know they came from an airport terminal POS keyboard, where they got a lot of usage, and are worn down really shiny. Let me know if you would be interested in purchasing my set. They are super high quality thick double-shot keycaps. It will take you 10 hours per day, for 5 years to polish any set of keycaps as shiny as these. Please note: the set I would be selling does NOT have the super valuable RGB modifiers. Just regular Black-on-white keycaps. PM me for pics, if ur interested.
EDIT: I just checked ebay.com, and TBH, this Desko is much cheaper than the amount of money what I would be willing to take for my set. These look like double-shots: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Desko-Magnetic-Card-Swipe-Reader-Mouse-Keyboard-Combo-/370591475647?pt=Keyboard_Mice_Bundles&hash=item5648f927bf. I would buy this and be happy. They are definitely super shiny.
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An update on my quest:
I got some 400 grit sandpaper and some 2000 grit sandpaper and went to town. I used the 400 grit to completely take off the "coolermaster" logo on the spacebar and the storms on the windows keys. Then I went over every key with it and rubbed it until I could no longer feel the ink of the letter (the ink on the CM storm rapid is very thick and easily felt on the fingertips). The letters are still clearly visible (except the W, which I melted with the dremel accidentally in an earlier experiment), but you can't detect them with your fingers or fingernail. It's amazingly quick work to smooth things over with that 400 grit.
Then I went over it with the 2000 grit. I might not have done a very good job because things don't really look or feel all that different, but my fingers are really fatigued from using the sandpaper. Maybe another time I will continue. Are you supposed to use sandpaper wet?
The letters are now silky smooth to the touch (none of the original texture or the edges of the letters can be felt). However, it kind of looks bad. Kind of hazy and grayish. I guess that kind of very small texture will wear off very quickly or maybe my finger oils will make it turn black again...perhaps I should buff it with a felt tip and a dremmel now. Like silk, it's smooth but also has some kind of friction when you slide your finger across it.
I'm actually now considering the possibility of putting some lacquer on top. Horrible idea? I mean, like clear nail polish or the polyurethane furniture finisher. It's a little out there, I admit. Probably better start with buffing with the felt and dremel.
@eth0s: thanks for bringing up that possibility, but I'm just looking at DIY solutions right now (until such time as I mess up my keytops enough that I need to buy replacements). :)
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Jumping from 400 to 2000 is a big jump and will require ridiculous amounts of work. When I resurface heatsinks I'll go from rough (600) > medium (1000) > fine (1600) > really fine (2200) for best results and minimal effort. For surfaces as soft as plastics I probably wouldn't have used something as rough as 400, but now that's done you'll want to find something like 1000 to get it smoothed out before going to the 2000 for basic shining.
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Ahh, that makes sense. Another trip to the store for me, I guess.
It actually feels awesome on my hands. Since I don't actually look at my keyboard all that much I'm a little tempted to keep it as is. Although I have cleaned it with a wet towel and a dry one, it feels silky smooth, almost like a hard surface with baby powder on it or something. It's not bad at all. Not the shiny surface I was looking for, but a good move.
Thanks for the advice. I'll give it another shot with the 1000 and then the 2000. I also have another keyboard of the same model that needs the same treatment so once I have everything worked out with this one, I'll be moving on and starting again.
Actually I'll probably try buffing with the felt dremel first. I have a feeling it might be smooth enough that the dremel will work well. I just have to be super careful not to let it overheat and melt the plastic like it did last time.
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Ok, I think I have the whole thing worked out, and I have now done it on two keyboards:
Start with a Coolermaster Storm Quickfire Rapid keyboard.
1. Grind off nubs on J and F keys with dremel and grinding tool
2. Wet sand logo on spacebar and windows keys with 400 grit sandpaper until completely gone
3. Wet sand each key individually to remove texture and enough of the letter paint that you can no longer feel it.
4. Wet sand everything with finer sandpaper. I went straight to 2000, but something intermediate first would have been better
5. Use dremel tool with felt tip to polish each key to a shine. It doesn't take long.
6. Remove plastic dust and felt residue from sides of the keys and rub everything with a soft cloth.
Voila! Perfectly smooth and shiny keys with no bumps and no annoying logo on the spacebar or windows keys. It was a lot of work but it was so worth it.
A couple of notes:
* I did one keyboard with dry sanding and the other wet. Wet went faster, was cleaner, and didn't gunk up the sandpaper as much. Definitely use water when sanding.
* On one keyboard I skipped the 2000 grit and went straight to the polishing with felt. That keyboard is not as shiny as the other. They are both shiny enough for my taste, though, and my fingers are very glad I didn't put them through another punishing round of sanding.
* When using the felt tool and the dremel, be sure not to leave it in one place too long or the plastic gets hot and melts. Very bad.
* None of the chemicals I tried were effective at bringing out a shine or significantly smoothing the keys. I think mechanical smoothing is better.
* I had a little bit of polishing compound on my felt tool left over, but I never applied more. I don't think it made any difference (it's for polishing metal and is very fine). I personally believe that plain felt would have worked as well but I'm not sure.
Thanks for all your help, guys!
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That's a thorough guide! This will be helpful for people who have old keycaps that have fingernail "ripples" on them, as well as people like you who prefer shiny keycaps.
Do you mind if I appropriate this information into a wiki page? I'll cite you, of course.
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No prob. You can add anything you want, with or without citing and with or without modification.