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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Velma on Thu, 06 September 2012, 18:33:48
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Ok, lets make this short and simple. i own 3 different keyboards with Cherry MX Brown switches. A Filco Majestouch, a Ducky Shine and a Zowie Celeritas. As far as i know, they claim to have similiar mount and switch plating, yet the feeling of the keypress varies very much from board to board. The Zowie keys are light to push but not very Tactile, the Filco feels like browns should do, light and tactile, while the ducky shine feels significantly harder to press down. They almost feel like Blacks and altough they are tactile, they dont make a lot of noise compared to the other two.
How can this be? how can 3 keyboards with the same switches and very similiar build feel so different?
my initial thought is that since the Ducky is fully backlight, somehow the light bulbs behind the keycaps interfere with the switch travel and therefor makes them tougher to stroke, but i really have no clue.
can someone with a little insight tell what factors except for the obvious (switch type) may affect the feel of the keys and the force required to press them down?
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Well, swap keycaps and see if that's the difference,
It also could be burn in. My blues feel much lighter and smoother, than when I first got them.
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i have a couple of different brown switch keyboards now as well, and my ducky feels alot better then any of the others for some odd reason as well. i love my ducky!
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It is unlikely to be the backlighting. If you pull a key cap you will see that the LED is ensconced in a small circular hole in the switch. The switch is designed to have the LEDs mounted in this way, and it is unlikely that the manufacturer would design it that way if doing so would impact the operation of the switch.
Are you using all the keyboards on the same desk in the same room and in the same position?
I have two Ducky Shine, both with MX blue switches. The one at home feels lighter and the tick from the keys sounds higher pitched. The one at work feels heavier, and the tick seems somewhat less pronounced.
Unfortunately I am not in a position to try both keyboards on the same desk, or even in the same building, so I put the difference down to a different desk surface and different room accoustics.
It would not be unexpected to experience a slight variation in manufacture between different keyboards, even if they have the same switch type.
And if the difference extends across thh whole keyboard, and not just a few keys, then it is more likely to be some difference inherent in the keyboard itself, and not just a faulty switch.
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I've noticed this too. In my workplace, many of our POS systems use Cherry G81-8000 (http://"http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/POS/8000/index.htm") keyboards, which have brown switches. I also have a Ducky Shine at home with brown switches...and they both feel & sound quite different. The Cherry board feels lighter and a bit less tactile. The Ducky has a much, much sturdier build (Cherry is crap, IMHO), and the keycaps make more of a "thock" when bottoming out. I'm sure the keycaps play part in that, as the Cherry ones are a bit more low-profile.
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I have a Filco Majestouch 1 and a Ducky 1087 (both browns). They feel and sound quite different despite having the same switch. So far I'm preferring the Filco over the Ducky - even when switching over to the same keycaps to maintain consistency. It's different and I don't like the ducky as much, but the ducky still has a much better feel than any of my membrane keyboards.
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I've noticed this too. In my workplace, many of our POS systems use Cherry G81-8000 (http://"http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/POS/8000/index.htm") keyboards, which have brown switches. I also have a Ducky Shine at home with brown switches...and they both feel & sound quite different. The Cherry board feels lighter and a bit less tactile. The Ducky has a much, much sturdier build (Cherry is crap, IMHO), and the keycaps make more of a "thock" when bottoming out. I'm sure the keycaps play part in that, as the Cherry ones are a bit more low-profile.
I think Cherry are good build quality. Their keycaps, in particular, are excellent.
That said, I suspect the biggest difference is that the Cherry is PCB mounted, and Ducky uses a plate for mounting.
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This occurrence isn't limited to mx browns, many have sighted boards like the TT MEKA G1 feels different to other mx black boards and the razer blackwidow blue being lighter than other blues.
I actually highly doubt that there is any physical difference although it could be lubrication or keycaps, maybe.
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> I'm sure the keycaps play part in that,
I replaced the original key-caps on my DasKeyboard Professional S (w/Blue switches) with Cherry DS ones. In addition to changing the profile, it seems to have changed the sound of the 'clicks' and bottoming out as well.
I can't really remember if it changed the 'feel' very much...
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This is exactly what I like to ask. I own a das ultimate silence Brown and Filco Majestouch 2 Brown. DAS feel stiffer, it feels I need more force to press it down. While Filco feels smoother and lighter.
I thought they all use the same Cherry swtich. Why is there difference? Do the vendors modify the switch?
Thank
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i did notice that the ducky (the stiffest one) had the tallest keycaps made of thicker plastic, while the Zowie, the shortest caps, had the least noticable tactile feedback. i guess it kinda makes sense in a way, but having taller keycaps should if anything just increase the distance to activation point, not make the caps heavier to push down and worse to type on.
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The height of the key "cap" should not have an effect on the actuation point (ie amount of travel distance), but the length of the stem could.
The extra mass of a larger or thicker cap will change the feel quite a bit, however.
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The height of the key "cap" should not have an effect on the actuation point (ie amount of travel distance), but the length of the stem could.
The extra mass of a larger or thicker cap will change the feel quite a bit, however.
Unless the stem is contacting the switch housing, I'm not seeing how the stem length can change activation point?
O-rings do, because the o-ring will contact the switch body.
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I think Cherry are good build quality. Their keycaps, in particular, are excellent.
That said, I suspect the biggest difference is that the Cherry is PCB mounted, and Ducky uses a plate for mounting.
I'd have to disagree, at least for this particular model. The build quality/assembly is crap, and we've had quite a few returned because they "forgot" their programming. We've had quite a few where certain combinations of keys will suddenly stop working. There is no metal plate in them, so they're super light and the case flexes & creeks like crazy. Just really cheap feeling overall. I do agree that the keycaps are nice though (at least the plain ones). More low-profile than the Ducky's and have a nice texture to them. And they seem pretty durable. Even the oldest ones still have their lettering with no sign of shining.
On the other hand, I'm not a fan of the design on the window label keycaps. The clear window falls off too easily since it's perched on top of the cap and held on with two little "nubs" which wear easily. We also have a ton of NCR "big ticket" POS keyboards and the windowed keycap design is much better since it's sunk into the cap. Worse-feeling keyboard ever though, due to a rubber-dome under a plastic plunger design. Plus the stem is basically a backwards cherry; the + part is on the keycap, and breaks off inside the plunger all the time. Due to the construction of the board, you basically have to disassemble the whole thing and push the broken piece out of the plunger from behind.
But I digress :)
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Bump to a somewhat old topic. I've had a Filco with browns for a few months. I then got a QFR with blues from Amazon and thought the switches were much stiffer than those on my Filco. Only then did I look it up and see that blues have an actuation force of 50g rather than 45g like the browns/reds, contrary to an earlier belief I had that the three had exactly the same force. While I imagine actuation force isn't completely related to the switch stiffness, I still thought the difference that I felt (in both normal typing and full bottoming out) was more than 5g.
[As an aside, when people mod to ergo clears, people usually group blue springs with reds/browns, which has been confusing me. Is "ergo clear" a very subjective term? Or are all of those springs of equal force, with the actual construction of the blue switch adding that extra 5g?].
Anyway, I got another QFR a few weeks back with the code Carter posted, this time with brown switches. But it turns out that despite using the same color switches, this one is also stiffer than my Filco, and it's causing me to type a bit more slowly and less accurately. Changing keycaps hasn't made a difference, and in fact, pressing down on the naked switches of both boards still reflects the same difference in stiffness. I'm not entirely sure it's a burn in thing since I never remembered my Filco's switches ever being that heavy, but I'm not too sure. So, perhaps it's a difference between the companies that produce the keyboards.
Just wanted to get this out there. Hope others can add to the discussion.
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1: blue/red/brown are the same spring, ergo-clear uses this spring with a clear stem.
2: have you found out what the tolerance is on these springs? It's shockingly huge. The only good part being that any 1 keyboard is typically made with the same batch of switches with the same batch of springs and the 1 batch is pretty close to each other.
PS - the tolerance is +/- 14-20g depending on switch type for the published specs (not all switches are in here)
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Wow.. well that surely explains a lot. Pretty crazy. Thanks for the info.
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Could it be differences in keyboard angles? When I tried out a few of the mechanical keyboards available at Fry's, I noticed that the angle with which you typed on them made a big difference... and I believe each keyboard manufacturer has their own way of angling their keys... ?