geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Enhor on Sat, 06 October 2012, 15:05:58

Title: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Enhor on Sat, 06 October 2012, 15:05:58

Hi everyone !

As I've stated in my introduction post (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36252.0) I'm looking to change my beloved  Roccat Arvo (http://www.roccat.org/Products/Gaming-Keyboards/ROCCAT-Arvo/) for a mechanical keyboard.

Now, I've come to love the Roccat for its ingenious "Mode" system, which lets you use the right part as both a numpad and the arrows / del end ect... keys. It allows the keyboard to remain quite small without having to sacrifice any keys.

Unfortunately, the only mechanical keyboard which seems to use the same system is the newly announced CM Storm Quickfire TK, but no word on its release date. And since the anniversary is coming quite quickly...

Anyway, here are my criterias :

- Must be small. No HHKB small, but at least as small as the Arvo, which is 39x14cm for reference
- I do not care about wrist rest, usb pord, audio port or anything like that
- USB detachable cord would be a huge plus to transport it alongside with the laptop or using it on several computers
- backlighting is nice, but not an issue. If there is backlighting I'd like to be able to disable it
- Must have arrows, function keys and del/end keys
- I know I'll have to forget about numpad, but having one available through FN layer would be nice
- Must have N-Key Rollover or at least 6Key Rollover (since I'm quite often playing)
- Must be available in Cherry MX brown, since these are the switches I'll probably go with.
- I'd prefer a dark casing, not a big fan of white

After browsing this forum and several others for quite some time, these are the keyboard I've found that could match my criterias :

- KBT Race
- Noppoo Choc Mini
- Filco Majestouch 2 Tenkeyless
- Leopold Tenkeyless
- Ducky Year Of The Dragon
- CM Storm Quickfire Rapid
- PLU ML87
- Duck DK1087

Here it is, I don't think I've missed any. Are any of these big no-no ? Any advices ?

Oh and one last thing. After lurking here for quite a while, my geeky heart is melting at looking at all these sweet custom keycaps. Are these compatible on most keyboards or are some of the ones I've listed just a pain in the ass when it comes to keycap size ?

Anyway, thanks for reading, hope I'll get some help ;)

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 06 October 2012, 15:18:09

PLUM 96 uses a similar system to the QuickFire TK:
(http://www.aikb.cn/image/plum962.jpg)

Avoid Ducky 10xx-series keyboards: the quality is poor. Seems like a lot of people have had quality issues with KBT products as well.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Skull_Angel on Sat, 06 October 2012, 16:09:42

You might want to add the KeyCool 87 to that list you have going, recent photos show a very decent build quality (and it also has backlit versions).

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 06 October 2012, 16:13:49

Plum 96 hits all the marks except switch type. As far as I know still only available with blacks, BUT it's pcb mount so it's not difficult to exchange the stems and springs. They are also quite inexpensive around $75.

Otherwise out of all the other boards you listed the only one that is problematic for custom keysets is the Choc mini due to the spacebar size. If you like something similar that dosen't have that problem, the Keycool 84 is a better option and it comes in backlight version too.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Enhor on Sat, 06 October 2012, 16:56:07

Thanks for the replies.

The Plum 96 seems nice, but these seems to be quite hard to come by and I'm not really interested in MX Blacks. I also don't see myself replacing every switches.

I indeed forgot about the Keycool, and there's also the KBT Oni which seems to fit the bill. That actually makes a lot of keyboards matching my criterias, seems that the choice might even be more difficult than what I thought  :confused:

Quote from: lysol

Otherwise out of all the other boards you listed the only one that is problematic for custom keysets is the Choc mini due to the spacebar size.

Is the spacebar size the only issue ? Cause this photo (http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k574/12378467823462783946237846237849623781423784162378/noppoo/DSC04478.jpg) of a Noppoo Choc Mini keycap next to a Ducky keycap made me think that keycaps might have totally different sizes depending on the brand.

I would hate, for example, buying a set of colored WASD keys and finding out that these sit 2mm higher or lower than the rest of my keys.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 06 October 2012, 18:14:26

Quote from: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 06 October 2012, 15:18:09

PLUM 96 uses a similar system to the QuickFire TK:

Show Image

(http://www.aikb.cn/image/plum962.jpg)

Avoid Ducky 10xx-series keyboards: the quality is poor. Seems like a lot of people have had quality issues with KBT products as well.

I just realized the PLUM and the CM TK are probably identical.. essentially the CM TK is just a rebrand of the PLUM....

Yes, I'm sure of it.............

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Enhor on Sat, 06 October 2012, 18:36:39

Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 06 October 2012, 18:14:26

I just realized the PLUM and the CM TK are probably identical.. essentially the CM TK is just a rebrand of the PLUM....

Yes, I'm sure of it.............

Wouldn't be so sure about that.

First, CM TK has backlighting.

Second, CM Storm has 3 different switches

Third, and most importantly, CM TK has no keys on the right upper corner.

(http://www.gnd-tech.com/image/i/YdcLn.jpg)

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 06 October 2012, 18:41:06

PLUM 96 comes with holes for DIY backlighting...

That said, there are enough differences in layout (upper right keys, modifier spacing) that PLUM 96 vs CMQF TK isn't "just" a rebrand, though the OEM of the TK is still unknown...

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 06 October 2012, 19:54:10

Also, the plum is PCB mount, and I'd be shocked if the CM TK came PCB mount.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Skull_Angel on Sat, 06 October 2012, 20:07:51

Nothing really wrong with PBC mount, it just needs to be properly supported on a decent surface to reduce flex.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 06 October 2012, 20:33:36

Never said there was an issue with PCB.  I recall Carter speaking on how much effort they went into the QFR PCB and plate choices.  From what I've seen, I expect CM to stick with plate mounted design.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 06 October 2012, 20:48:57

Maybe.

But then, according to the now-disappeared webpage for the TK, it only weighed 544 g/1.2 lb, as opposed to 940 g / 2.1 lbs for the QF Rapid...

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Enhor on Sun, 07 October 2012, 05:13:26

No answer on that ?  :(

Quote from: Enhor on Sat, 06 October 2012, 16:56:07

Quote from: lysol

Otherwise out of all the other boards you listed the only one that is problematic for custom keysets is the Choc mini due to the spacebar size.

Is the spacebar size the only issue ? Cause this photo (http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k574/12378467823462783946237846237849623781423784162378/noppoo/DSC04478.jpg) of a Noppoo Choc Mini keycap next to a Ducky keycap made me think that keycaps might have totally different sizes depending on the brand.

I would hate, for example, buying a set of colored WASD keys and finding out that these sit 2mm higher or lower than the rest of my keys.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: exousia7 on Sun, 07 October 2012, 05:37:28

Ducky is releasing 9087 regular non-YotD keyboard. Don't know when it will be released though.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: megnin on Sun, 07 October 2012, 08:14:59

How important is a second layer tenkey pad? 

The Choc Mini has it, the KBT Race does not. 

The NEO Zelia, which has a standard TKL layout like the Filco and Leopold also has a second layer tenkey pad, Filco and Leopold do not.

Those are all Cherry MX switch boards and the keycaps are mostly interchangable ON THE KEYS THAT ARE THE SAME SIZE.  Filco and Leopold have the same size space bar the but the mounting posts are spaced differently so they are not interchangable.  The Choc Mini and Race have non-standard (Filco standard) modifiers, esc, shift, etc. keys so watch out for those if you want to put custom caps on the board.

Another board that has a second layer tenkey pad, but is not a Cherry MX switch board is the Realforce 87U Tenkeyless.  It is 3x more expensive and uses Topre switches instead of Cherry MX. It's an excelent quality board, but the caps are not interchangeable with Cherry MX switches.  I only mention this one because it has the second layer tenkey pad.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: megnin on Sun, 07 October 2012, 08:33:36

Quote from: Enhor on Sun, 07 October 2012, 05:13:26

I would hate, for example, buying a set of colored WASD keys and finding out that these sit 2mm higher or lower than the rest of my keys.

There are a couple of different height profiles, so you do want to check that.

Here is a height profile chart from Signature Plastics (SP).  They make key caps.  The "DCS Family" is the standard profile but height may be different from a different manufacturer.  The other "Families" are not commonly if ever used on Cherry MX keyboards, so ignore them.
(http://keycapsdirect.com/images/faq/FamilyProfilesLG.jpg)

Here is a handy chart of different common keyboard layouts.
It includes CM Storm, DAS, Ducky, Filco, Leopold, Choc Mini, Razor, Roswill, Steelseries, and Thermaltake:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/keycap-compatibility (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/keycap-compatibility)

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Enhor on Sun, 07 October 2012, 09:22:04

Quote from: megnin on Sun, 07 October 2012, 08:14:59

How important is a second layer tenkey pad? 

The Choc Mini has it, the KBT Race does not. 

The NEO Zelia, which has a standard TKL layout like the Filco and Leopold also has a second layer tenkey pad, Filco and Leopold do not.

Another board that has a second layer tenkey pad, but is not a Cherry MX switch board is the Realforce 87U Tenkeyless.  It is 3x more expensive and uses Topre switches instead of Cherry MX. It's an excelent quality board, but the caps are not interchangeable with Cherry MX switches.  I only mention this one because it has the second layer tenkey pad.

Second layer tenkeypad is definitely not my most important criteria. I mean, would be nice to have one, but wouldn't prevent me from buying if it wasn't the case.

Realforce really is out of my price range  :))

Neo Zelia seems nice but it does seem quite hard to find and the construction would not reassure me if I had to transport it in my backpack.

Quote from: megnin on Sun, 07 October 2012, 08:33:36

There are a couple of different height profiles, so you do want to check that.

Wait, so you mean that depending on the brand of the keyboard, and even if they are part of the "DCS Family", the keys might not be the same height ? How can I check that ?

Because, correct me if I'm wrong, the SP chart tells me about the angle of the keys (depending on which row they belong to), the WASD chart tells me about the size of these (1x1, 1x2.75...) but nothing tells me about the height of the keys ?

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: jeroplane on Sun, 07 October 2012, 10:33:24

Quote from: Enhor on Sun, 07 October 2012, 09:22:04

Wait, so you mean that depending on the brand of the keyboard, and even if they are part of the "DCS Family", the keys might not be the same height ? How can I check that ?

Because, correct me if I'm wrong, the SP chart tells me about the angle of the keys (depending on which row they belong to), the WASD chart tells me about the size of these (1x1, 1x2.75...) but nothing tells me about the height of the keys ?

The numbers below the keys on the SP chart denotes their Row Number:
1. Numbers
2. QWERTY
3. ASDF
4. ZXCV & Modifiers
Their angle and height accordingly match those rows.

WASD uses a Row numbering system, too, but theirs is sort of the opposite numbering system to SP's:
(http://cdn.wasdkeyboards.com/media//keycap_layout.jpg)

We usually talk about the keycap profile, which describes the height and angle of the keys as a whole.

When buying keys, you will seldom ask whether the "height" matches, but whether the "profile" matches. This is because, at least in terms of Cherry MX switch boards, keycaps are made to match the few most popular profiles - "OEM", SP, Cherry.

It is important to note that the SP and Cherry profiles are different to that on WASD caps. SP and Cherry keys are slightly different from each other, but they both differ from WASD in that they angle back towards the rear of the keyboard more. WASD have been described as "OEM" profile, which match the profile of the stock keys on brands like Filco, Das, Ducky, CM, etc. They matched my Filco keys perfectly in terms of angle and height.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Sinzz on Sun, 07 October 2012, 13:50:58

Keycool 84 with LEDs fits all of those criteria!

- its really small
- no added hardware feature
- USB is detachable
- has backlighting in different colors
- Has arrow, function keys and del-end keys
- FN layer does have all original Numpad, as well as 00
- 22kro as well as NKRO with use of PS/2 adapter
- I believe they do have a MX Brown option
- Dark Casing!

It also has a plethora of FN key functions, such as computer, internet, calculator, music, media functions, vol control, Winlock. it also has superhero keycaps! I would recommend the 84 with LEDs because I believe that they updated the mounts and such so that its more easily compatible with other keycaps, though I'm not too sure if that is really the case.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Enhor on Sun, 07 October 2012, 16:03:10

Huge thanks for keeping the informations coming in !

Here is where I'm at at the moment :

PLU 87 is excluded because of the lack of RKO.

Leopold and Filco seems great but lack the detachable USB cable. Same goes with Noppoo Choc Mini.

Even though it seems to be great, I'm not a big fan the Quickfire Rapid design. But hey, to each is own !

So far, I'm hesitating between the KBT Race, Duck YOTD and Keycool 84. I wasn't really going for a backlit keyboard to begin with, but since I'll be switching from an Azerty Iso layout to a Qwerty Ansi Layout, it might be quite useful a first !

Race and Keycool have the advantage of being smaller, but I'm really digging the lighting of the YOTD. Especially the two differents backlit options, which would allow me to only light up the keys I do use, and leaving the Function Keys shut off, for example. But does it really justifies the higher price mark ? And what is the construction and robustness on these 3 ?

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Sinzz on Sun, 07 October 2012, 18:52:25

Ducky has a SUPER solid build quality, feels heavy and tough. KC84 is also solid feeling, but its not as tough feeling as the ducky.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Human on Mon, 08 October 2012, 13:22:00

Quote from: lysol on Sat, 06 October 2012, 16:13:49

Plum 96 hits all the marks except switch type. As far as I know still only available with blacks, BUT it's pcb mount so it's not difficult to exchange the stems and springs. They are also quite inexpensive around $75.

Otherwise out of all the other boards you listed the only one that is problematic for custom keysets is the Choc mini due to the spacebar size. If you like something similar that dosen't have that problem, the Keycool 84 is a better option and it comes in backlight version too.

I thought I came across other switches variant in Taobao?
And I am pretty sure that other switches variant(at least for MX Red) do exist.
http://www.waishehome.cn/thread-59094-1-1.html

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Human on Mon, 08 October 2012, 13:23:29

Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 06 October 2012, 18:14:26

Quote from: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 06 October 2012, 15:18:09

PLUM 96 uses a similar system to the QuickFire TK:

Show Image

(http://www.aikb.cn/image/plum962.jpg)

Avoid Ducky 10xx-series keyboards: the quality is poor. Seems like a lot of people have had quality issues with KBT products as well.

I just realized the PLUM and the CM TK are probably identical.. essentially the CM TK is just a rebrand of the PLUM....

Yes, I'm sure of it.............

I don't think so. The chance that CM TK is same OEM with Corsair K60/K90 or Logitech G710 are higher than it to be same OEM with PLUM96.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: Enhor on Fri, 26 October 2012, 09:22:51

Just a small update ! I finally went for a Ducky Year of The Dragon w/ MX browns.

It just arrived today, and god it looks good. Feels good too.

Just have to get used to the Qwerty/Ansi layout and hope swithing to Azerty/Iso on my laptop from time to time won't **** me up  :)

Anyway, here is the beast :

(http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/384327_4435430036405_1997355311_n.jpg)

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Fri, 26 October 2012, 09:49:02

That Ducky looks great!

Where / how would one purchase a PLUM96?

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 26 October 2012, 09:51:57

Taobao, qtan,  maybe even imsto.

Title: Re: Looking for advice on a Tenkeyless / Compact keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Fri, 26 October 2012, 10:30:32

Quote from: alaricljs on Fri, 26 October 2012, 09:51:57

Taobao, qtan,  maybe even imsto.

Coolness - thanks!