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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Xplaced on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:20:54

Title: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Xplaced on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:20:54
I see a lot of folks "dis" Razer keyboards a lot, so I did some research on them to see what the deal is. I own a BlackWidow Expert, and I haven't ever had any issues out of it and wondered if I'm an oddity or something. :)

Anyway, I found this review on Overclock.net about the board: http://www.overclock.net/t/882561/review-razer-blackwidow-ultimate

The reviewer gave it a really good rating, and did a very thorough break-down of the board. They took it apart and everything. I'm wondering if you guys have seen this before. If not, please take a look. If you have, let me know what your thoughts are, if this review changes your mind about Razer (or this board) at all, or if you still hate them, etc.  ;D

I am kind of impressed after seeing that review, and so was the reviewer it looks like. So, I''m interested in your opinions here since you guys seem to be more of a Costar crowd, where I think the Razer board is iOne, right?

Anyway, just interested in the community thoughts on this review. If this has been posted before somewhere I'm sorry - I'm relatively new here.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:25:10
Surely does looks like a nice hardware, I mean, just look at a comparison between an Costar made keyboard's hardware (Das Keyboard Model S) and this iOne Razer Blackwidow.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-907hS44N2tM/UBhkqanWu4I/AAAAAAAABdA/Q4-L-lav5CA/IMG_2637.JPG?imgmax=2500)

(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q269/damutation/Razer%20Blackwidow%20Review/RazerBlackwidowUltimateReview-110.jpg)


Wow, and they even cost the same! Props up for Razer, really...
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: xyril on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:39:57
Well razer blackwiddow (expert) is the cheapest mechanical keyboard on the market (in terms of "gaming" product")  .

I satisfied using it for 1 year. I use it mainly for gaming and typing ,but there are several problems i faced with blackwiddow (since its known to its bad quality i expect this to happen anyway).

The build quality of the keyboard is fine for me , but the main cause of the problem is the wire connector. Since i travel alot  to LANs, i have to  warp the wire around the keyboard. The wire itself its very thin thought.... i would be happiest man on planet if i got MEKA G1 instead. Because of the wire cord (is like 1.1cm thicknes)...

sry for my bad english thou.. :S
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:46:45
I don't even know why gamers would pay for a Razer Blackwidow if they can buy for the US$ 120 range:

1. Cooler Master Trigger (which has 4 different models, with different Cherry MX switches each) which is made by Costar.
2. Thermaltake Meka G-Unit, also made by Costar.
3. Filco Majestouch-2, also made by Costar.
4. Ozone Strike (this one isn't cheap in the US, but is cheap in Europe and other countries) which is made by Costar.
5. Thermaltake Meka G1, also made by Costar.

So, there isn't a lack of options better than the Blackwidow, but why do people buy it? Appearance's sake and due to the Razer logo.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Xplaced on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:47:12
Surely does looks like a nice hardware, I mean, just look at a comparison between an Costar made keyboard's hardware (Das Keyboard Model S) and this iOne Razer Blackwidow.

Wow, and they even cost the same! Props up for Razer, really...

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. I don't know you very well. :) Plus this is the internet. Could you clarify what you meant? I'm no expert at looking at the boards, so sorry if it's obvious to everyone else because it isn't to me.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Xplaced on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:51:46
I don't even know why gamers would pay for a Razer Blackwidow if they can buy for the US$ 120 range:

1. Cooler Master Trigger (which has 4 different models, with different Cherry MX switches each) which is made by Costar.
2. Thermaltake Meka G-Unit, also made by Costar.
3. Filco Majestouch-2, also made by Costar.
4. Ozone Strike (this one isn't cheap in the US, but is cheap in Europe and other countries) which is made by Costar.
5. Thermaltake Meka G1, also made by Costar.

So, there isn't a lack of options better than the Blackwidow, but why do people buy it? Appearance's sake and due to the Razer logo.

You keep saying "Costar made". But I don't get why that's better. I've asked that before on here, and I didn't get any real answers, so I'm wondering if you could elaborate? What sources do you have, etc.? Is there a link already on this forum that you could point me to that would explain which is better than the other and why?

I'm not trying to stick up for Razer, so don't get me wrong. I just really don't get why folks bash them so hard when I've had one for a year + and it's worked fine and feels good. I have two QuickFire Rapids and I'm trying to decide which one to keep, but I can't tell that they are any better build than the Razer just by using them.

Also, the xpensive Razer is backlit (the Ultimate). I think that is what adds to the price of $140, since the Expert model (older model, not 2013) is only $70 now in some stores. That's the one I have btw. You can get the "old" version for close to $100 now though with backlighting, which at that price point isn't too bad. I do agree that Razer is overprice on their Ultimate line though. $140 is so expensive!

I'm trying out a BlackWidow Ultimate 2013, and I am going to return it. It is a great board, but I don't like it enough more to keep it for the price vs the Rapids. It isn't a quality thing though, for sure. I sure do love that backlighting though. The thing is so loud though that my wife would never be around me when I use it. Ha!  ;D For some that might be a good thing, but we just got married recently so I want to keep her around a little longer.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 15 October 2012, 12:38:22
I don't even know why gamers would pay for a Razer Blackwidow if they can buy for the US$ 120 range:

1. Cooler Master Trigger (which has 4 different models, with different Cherry MX switches each) which is made by Costar.
2. Thermaltake Meka G-Unit, also made by Costar.
3. Filco Majestouch-2, also made by Costar.
4. Ozone Strike (this one isn't cheap in the US, but is cheap in Europe and other countries) which is made by Costar.
5. Thermaltake Meka G1, also made by Costar.

So, there isn't a lack of options better than the Blackwidow, but why do people buy it? Appearance's sake and due to the Razer logo.

You keep saying "Costar made". But I don't get why that's better. I've asked that before on here, and I didn't get any real answers, so I'm wondering if you could elaborate? What sources do you have, etc.? Is there a link already on this forum that you could point me to that would explain which is better than the other and why?

I'm not trying to stick up for Razer, so don't get me wrong. I just really don't get why folks bash them so hard when I've had one for a year + and it's worked fine and feels good. I have two QuickFire Rapids and I'm trying to decide which one to keep, but I can't tell that they are any better build than the Razer just by using them.

Also, the xpensive Razer is backlit (the Ultimate). I think that is what adds to the price of $140, since the Expert model (older model, not 2013) is only $70 now in some stores. That's the one I have btw. You can get the "old" version for close to $100 now though with backlighting, which at that price point isn't too bad. I do agree that Razer is overprice on their Ultimate line though. $140 is so expensive!

I'm trying out a BlackWidow Ultimate 2013, and I am going to return it. It is a great board, but I don't like it enough more to keep it for the price vs the Rapids. It isn't a quality thing though, for sure. I sure do love that backlighting though. The thing is so loud though that my wife would never be around me when I use it. Ha!  ;D For some that might be a good thing, but we just got married recently so I want to keep her around a little longer.

Two of several big boyz' out there making keyboards are Costar and iONE

Costar has a good history of making keyboards of good quality and low failure rates.

iONE has a history of making the Black Widow, which sucks ass, and involved in rampant failure rates. They also produced K60 and K90, both of which ALSO suck ass, as those 2 keyboards plain don't work right, and has key sticking.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Xplaced on Mon, 15 October 2012, 12:48:35
Thanks for the info tp4tissue. Is that history based on a fact sheet somewhere, or just posts on this board, other boards, etc? When I look at reviews on retail sites, the Razer boards are showing 4/5 stars, eggs, whatever you want to call it. I notice that the Rapid boards, a lot of them are 5/5. But, there are like, 400+ reviews on the Razer stuff because it has more market reach I guess, whereas there are something like 80+ reviews on the Rapids. I'm referring to sites like Newegg and Amazon mostly.

I guess it just boils down to getting a good board or not with Razer. If you get a good one, I guess it'll work OK and last a while and not cause issues, and if you like the feel then that's a good board for you. But if you get a Costar/Rapid board, you will be more likely to get a working one from the start.

I wonder if that's because more Razer boards are sold, so a higher percentage are likely to fail? Or if it's just that Razers are not as good? It's hard to know, because we can only go by what are on posted boards like this, and retail site reviews. And even then, not everyone who has one gets on a forum or a retail site and reviews it.

Too many factors involved! Ha! :D I opened a can of worms with this post I think. Well, probably not really. I think most folks here seem pretty much against iONE.

Right now my dilemma is I have two Rapids, a brown and a Red, and I can't decide which one I want to keep and I need to decide so I can ship one back! Ha! Tough decision....
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 15 October 2012, 12:52:32
Most of the issues with iOne produced boards have to do with poor assembly. They are notorious for really, really bad soldering which is what causes so much failures. There used to be a bunch of photos of this on here on the old version of the site that showed how bad it was. Lots of solder joint that were big globs, some that bridged traces, soldermask all over everything, stray solder, and so on. Solder joint on the switch should look like a nice shiny tent, not a dull grey ball. Bad joint will break off easily, which will make at least that switch stop working, stray broken off solder can go anywhere and bridge something that could cause a short and fry the controller for example.
It's not isolated to the BW, but anything they have oem, like qpad, adesso, xarmor, tessoro, max and the dozen or so other rebrands they do.

I hope you don't send the board you don't like as rma just because you don't like it. That's not good to do. If you don't mind selling to Europe, I know a lot of people would potentially be willing to buy one as they can't easily get other switch type but black there.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: terrpn on Mon, 15 October 2012, 12:55:29
if i had known then what i know now i would not have bought a bwu, however it has been a solid board since purchasing and everything works flawlessly.

i did however have to defile some ds cherry caps and swap out the ones that came with it- which makes it more tolerable aesthetically. it does have some serious backlit when turned to highest setting.

since being here for a while i know better now and what to buy and not buy :eek:
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Mon, 15 October 2012, 13:08:20
Besides, the Razer Blackwidow isn't the biggest fiasco that came out from iOne... XArmor keyboards are terrible based on the reviews I've seen and the Aziotech Levetron Mech4 was probably the worst thing they ever made.

(http://assets.hardwaresphere.com/uploads/2011/11/AZiO-Levetron-Mech4-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard.jpg)

Just check its reviews on Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823839010



Most people aren't actually bashing Razer, but its OEM. The strange thing, is that no one defends Corsair's keyboards quality here, only occasionally you see a Razer fanboy getting mad at our opinions, but hey, why is there no one defending Corsair? Why no one defends the Aziotech Levetron Mech4? Why no one defends the Cooler Master Quickfire Pro units produced by iOne?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 15 October 2012, 13:22:34
I think the Azio and Corsair were actually made by iRocks, not iOne. Asides from the iOne Scorpius that has a layout vaugely like the Cherry 1800, they have always stuck with the 1.5 1 1.5 6 1.5 1 1 1.5 bottom row. iRocks on the other hand like to use all sorts of different bizzare keyspacing there. In regards to the Azio, yes it is hideous, but I haven't seen complaints about the build quality. As for the Corsair, all it's problems stem from incorporating rubber domes for absolutely no good reason which seems to be why there are so many behavior problems stemming from thier bizarre code they had to implement for the firmware to attempt to account for behavior chrachteristics of 2 wildly different switch types. Otherwise the build quality is quite nice.
iRocks is also the oem for the new Rosewill backlight model, and likely the new Logitech, and the upcoming CM TK.
They also made the Tt meka original with the whack layout, and the g-unit.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Mon, 15 October 2012, 13:27:15
I think the Azio and Corsair were actually made by iRocks, not iOne. Asides from the iOne Scorpius that has a layout vaugely like the Cherry 1800, they have always stuck with the 1.5 1 1.5 6 1.5 1 1 1.5 bottom row. iRocks on the other hand like to use all sorts of different bizzare keyspacing there. In regards to the Azio, yes it is hideous, but I haven't seen complaints about the build quality. As for the Corsair, all it's problems stem from incorporating rubber domes for absolutely no good reason which seems to be why there are so many behavior problems stemming from thier bizarre code they had to implement for the firmware to attempt to account for behavior chrachteristics of 2 wildly different switch types. Otherwise the build quality is quite nice.
iRocks is also likely the oem for the new Logitech, the backlight Rosewill model, and the upcoming CM TK.

Then check again the Newegg reviews section regarding it... Jesus, this may be one of the worst mechanical keybooards ever made.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Neo.X on Mon, 15 October 2012, 13:48:57
As a current BWU owner, I have to purchase a Filco to feel the true feel of Blue switch.

One good thing about BWU is that it does look very nice with the backlit, so as other Razer products. And put some o-rings, it helps.

Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Xplaced on Mon, 15 October 2012, 15:03:13
if i had known then what i know now i would not have bought a bwu, however it has been a solid board since purchasing and everything works flawlessly.

i did however have to defile some ds cherry caps and swap out the ones that came with it- which makes it more tolerable aesthetically. it does have some serious backlit when turned to highest setting.

since being here for a while i know better now and what to buy and not buy :eek:

That backlighting is freaking cool, huh? On the new green one for sure. It's so bright, honestly I don't think I'd ever use it on the full brightness. I think it would be a good board for someone, but I'm just going to stick with browns/reds I think. Only other thing I might do is get a Rapid with blues, because I like their feel. They're just too loud for my wife. For me, they're great though. :) Browns seem to be the closest thing for me to blues, and reds are OK I think if I can get used to them. I'm comparing a brown/red combo now, so we'll see what I end up with. I'm thinking it will probably be the browns, though I like the look of the red board a little more. Looks aren't what a keyboard is for though. However, backlighting is cool.... ;)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 15 October 2012, 15:23:20
Most of the issues with iOne produced boards have to do with poor assembly. They are notorious for really, really bad soldering which is what causes so much failures. There used to be a bunch of photos of this on here on the old version of the site that showed how bad it was. Lots of solder joint that were big globs, some that bridged traces, soldermask all over everything, stray solder, and so on. Solder joint on the switch should look like a nice shiny tent, not a dull grey ball. Bad joint will break off easily, which will make at least that switch stop working, stray broken off solder can go anywhere and bridge something that could cause a short and fry the controller for example.
It's not isolated to the BW, but anything they have oem, like qpad, adesso, xarmor, tessoro, max and the dozen or so other rebrands they do.

I hope you don't send the board you don't like as rma just because you don't like it. That's not good to do. If you don't mind selling to Europe, I know a lot of people would potentially be willing to buy one as they can't easily get other switch type but black there.

Oh reallly?

Fvck Razer..... Fvck Corsair.... Both those m0thafvckers screwed me on 5 different keyboards total.. Fvck fvck fvck..... FVCK
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Mon, 15 October 2012, 16:27:59
Lol. Go on ebay and search up the BlackWidow and any other keyboard you want. How many of the Black Widows are sold "for parts" "as-is" "for parts not working"? and compare to another board. I'm sure the new Razer BlackWidows are fixed up some how. They had many issues upon release. These were issues that I have found during my research of the BlackWidow. I knew what I was getting into but the Back-lighting got to me(I have faced half of these problems myself):

That is all but this is a reference to last years BlackWidow and the new one is new and there is not very much information on it. I wouldn't mind to know if they fixed all of that but I wouldn't pay that much money again just to be disappointed again. Think what you want as it doesn't matter what other people say, you think what you want about your board. The list above was issues that users came across and if you didn't have issues then that's good for you, but doesn't mean that other people haven't had issues. There are good things about the BlackWidow also but you asked for the the problems so here you are. If you want me to list the "pro's" too I can...

Though I dislike Razer now, before I owned a Razer product I was a fan and wanted to try them out because they had so much selection with so many different cosmetic styles, I had to try them all! Even though my current mouse, the Razer Lachesis was a total bust and doesn't fit the hand very naturally at all.  I am currently thinking about getting a new mouse and one of the ones on my list is the Razer Taipan, the successor of the Lachesis... But it is still very new, I think I will wait till I hear about the problems, a price drop, or when an upgraded version comes out a year from now. Yes, I know, I am a fool. Lol.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Mon, 15 October 2012, 16:32:22
Though I dislike Razer now, before I owned a Razer product I was a fan and wanted to try them out because they had so much selection with so many different cosmetic styles, I had to try them all! Even though my current mouse, the Razer Lachesis was a total bust and doesn't fit the hand very naturally at all.  I am currently thinking about getting a new mouse and one of the ones on my list is the Razer Taipan, the successor of the Lachesis... But it is still very new, I think I will wait till I hear about the problems, a price drop, or when an upgraded version comes out a year from now. Yes, I know, I am a fool. Lol.

I also dislike Razer, after buying some of their products (a ****ing bugged Razer Imperator and a Razer Deathadder which I paid more than my current Corsair M60, which is far far far better), but believe or not, based on the specs they used, the laser sensor (which isn't that god damn Philips Twin Eye) and the mouse style, I think that maybe the Raizer Taipan is indeed a good mouse.

But o' well, not like you can't really buy stuff as good as or maybe even better for less money...
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 15 October 2012, 16:32:58
2013 version - matte case, green led, improved KRO. All the other cons are still present more than likely. Basically they took the stealth version and made it the general version, but kept with blues.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Mon, 15 October 2012, 16:36:30
2013 version - matte case, green led, improved KRO. All the other cons are still present more than likely. Basically they took the stealth version and made it the general version, but kept with blues.

If there's an improved KRO, hasn't the keyboard's circuit been like, totally overhauled?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Mon, 15 October 2012, 16:37:40
Though I dislike Razer now, before I owned a Razer product I was a fan and wanted to try them out because they had so much selection with so many different cosmetic styles, I had to try them all! Even though my current mouse, the Razer Lachesis was a total bust and doesn't fit the hand very naturally at all.  I am currently thinking about getting a new mouse and one of the ones on my list is the Razer Taipan, the successor of the Lachesis... But it is still very new, I think I will wait till I hear about the problems, a price drop, or when an upgraded version comes out a year from now. Yes, I know, I am a fool. Lol.

I also dislike Razer, after buying some of their products (a ****ing bugged Razer Imperator and a Razer Deathadder which I paid more than my current Corsair M60, which is far far far better), but believe or not, based on the specs they used, the laser sensor (which isn't that god damn Philips Twin Eye) and the mouse style, I think that maybe the Raizer Taipan is indeed a good mouse.

But o' well, not like you can't really buy stuff as good as or maybe even better for less money...

My Lachesis is kind of faulty. I figured out it was due to their software, lol.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Mon, 15 October 2012, 16:43:16
Though I dislike Razer now, before I owned a Razer product I was a fan and wanted to try them out because they had so much selection with so many different cosmetic styles, I had to try them all! Even though my current mouse, the Razer Lachesis was a total bust and doesn't fit the hand very naturally at all.  I am currently thinking about getting a new mouse and one of the ones on my list is the Razer Taipan, the successor of the Lachesis... But it is still very new, I think I will wait till I hear about the problems, a price drop, or when an upgraded version comes out a year from now. Yes, I know, I am a fool. Lol.

I also dislike Razer, after buying some of their products (a ****ing bugged Razer Imperator and a Razer Deathadder which I paid more than my current Corsair M60, which is far far far better), but believe or not, based on the specs they used, the laser sensor (which isn't that god damn Philips Twin Eye) and the mouse style, I think that maybe the Raizer Taipan is indeed a good mouse.

But o' well, not like you can't really buy stuff as good as or maybe even better for less money...

My Lachesis is kind of faulty. I figured out it was due to their software, lol.


My old Razer Deathadder 3.5G also crashed and did some crazy stuff as soon as I updated it. Then, I downgraded and it went back to where it previously was.

Talking about that, isn't Synapse 2.0 like, ULTRA-BAD according even to Razer Fanboys?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 15 October 2012, 16:50:58
No, same pcb can be used. Cherry does it quite often. For example use same pcb for vanilla 2KRO 3000 and 6KRO 3494, different firmware only.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Mon, 15 October 2012, 17:08:06
No, same pcb can be used. Cherry does it quite often. For example use same pcb for vanilla 2KRO 3000 and 6KRO 3494, different firmware only.

Well, there is indeed a different firmware since USB doesn't normally accepts over 6KRO, but, won't some parts of the keyboard remain 2KRO as it was before?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Sifo on Mon, 15 October 2012, 17:17:09
lol my friend has a Black Widow, I took a quick peak at it. Ew. For that price I'd stick to CM, feels like I'm paying too much for some spare parts.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Mon, 15 October 2012, 17:52:17
for some spare parts.

That is what it is... Check ebay.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: BucklingSpring on Mon, 15 October 2012, 17:54:49
Besides, the Razer Blackwidow isn't the biggest fiasco that came out from iOne...
XArmor keyboards are terrible based on the reviews I've seen and the Aziotech Levetron Mech4 was probably the worst thing they ever made.

+1

Btw the XArmor I gave to someone I hate is no longer working.
Good for him, he had it coming :-)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Sifo on Mon, 15 October 2012, 17:56:13

+1

Btw the XArmor I gave to someone I hate is no longer working.
Good for him, he had it coming :-)

LOL evil.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: sovano on Mon, 15 October 2012, 19:06:34
Besides, the Razer Blackwidow isn't the biggest fiasco that came out from iOne... XArmor keyboards are terrible based on the reviews I've seen and the Aziotech Levetron Mech4 was probably the worst thing they ever made.

Show Image
(http://assets.hardwaresphere.com/uploads/2011/11/AZiO-Levetron-Mech4-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard.jpg)


Just check its reviews on Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823839010



Most people aren't actually bashing Razer, but its OEM. The strange thing, is that no one defends Corsair's keyboards quality here, only occasionally you see a Razer fanboy getting mad at our opinions, but hey, why is there no one defending Corsair? Why no one defends the Aziotech Levetron Mech4? Why no one defends the Cooler Master Quickfire Pro units produced by iOne?
That's one of the ugliest looking keyboards I've seen in a while...who even conceived of such a horrific design? Anyways it's no mystery that Razer keyboards are just terrible. The only reason people buy them is either they are: inexperienced, fell for the aesthetics, backlighting, and/or the amount of advertising they do (which is A LOT, and they do it well). I can't tell you how many times I've had to go to a tech support forum on sites I go to and read how "my Razer BWU broke" or "X-Y-Z key is not working right". If they just fixed their quality control on the keyboards and switched OEM manufacturers, I'm sure they'd be a more respectable brand.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Mon, 15 October 2012, 19:09:49
Besides, the Razer Blackwidow isn't the biggest fiasco that came out from iOne... XArmor keyboards are terrible based on the reviews I've seen and the Aziotech Levetron Mech4 was probably the worst thing they ever made.

Show Image
(http://assets.hardwaresphere.com/uploads/2011/11/AZiO-Levetron-Mech4-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard.jpg)


Just check its reviews on Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823839010



Most people aren't actually bashing Razer, but its OEM. The strange thing, is that no one defends Corsair's keyboards quality here, only occasionally you see a Razer fanboy getting mad at our opinions, but hey, why is there no one defending Corsair? Why no one defends the Aziotech Levetron Mech4? Why no one defends the Cooler Master Quickfire Pro units produced by iOne?
That's one of the ugliest looking keyboards I've seen in a while...who even conceived of such a horrific design? Anyways it's no mystery that Razer keyboards are just terrible. The only reason people buy them is either they are: inexperienced, fell for the aesthetics, backlighting, and/or the amount of advertising they do (which is A LOT, and they do it well). I can't tell you how many times I've had to go to a tech support forum on sites I go to and read how "my Razer BWU broke" or "X-Y-Z key is not working right". If they just fixed their quality control on the keyboards and switched OEM manufacturers, I'm sure they'd be a more respectable brand.

Sure, but that affects their profits. The cheaper it is, the bigger the profits are. Everyone knows that focusing resources on marketing makes your product sell more than focusing resources on the product's quality control.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Mon, 15 October 2012, 19:12:44
Like Apple. Where would the be without advertisements?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: cosmonauti on Mon, 15 October 2012, 23:47:07
I've just replaced my original-got-it-launch-day BWU with a new one (for $0 ;D) - not the 2013 edition. I must say that this newer board feels better. There really wasn't a ton of wear on my old board but some of the keys felt a bit loose. On this new one, however, the only somewhat noticeably wobbly key is the right shift, probably because it's the largest key besides the spacebar. The spacebar could be more solid, but I am overall more pleased with the recent board than my first. Maybe they've tightened up their QC, maybe I got lucky with this newer one.

Just throwing it out there.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Tue, 16 October 2012, 00:04:40
First mech I had was the BWU. I must say, Razer does make the best mouse ever, the Razer Naga which I use at work and at home. In hindsight, that blackwidow was just cheesy and an okay starter big-boy keyboard.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 16 October 2012, 00:08:08
An okay starter, but at a premium price for a starter.

Unless you specifically want backlighting, a CM QFR or similar would be much cheaper.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Tue, 16 October 2012, 00:12:05
To be honest, I was completely unaware the CM Storm keyboards were even around back then. Had I known about it I could have saved money. Anyways, I only insist on back lighting in the cave cause at work, there's always light... Ordered some blank PBT keys for my CM Rapid at work ^_^
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: ih8 on Tue, 16 October 2012, 00:36:22
I'm surprised you can't feel a quality difference between the BW and the QFR.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Tue, 16 October 2012, 00:46:33
I'm surprised you can't feel a quality difference between the BW and the QFR.

Then again, I even found a guy on the internet saying that the Razer Blackwidow's quality wasn't inferior to his Das Keyboard (but wait, he did made a five pages review, disassembled the thing and that was a review sample)... Ow well...
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 October 2012, 00:52:49
I'm surprised you can't feel a quality difference between the BW and the QFR.

Then again, I even found a guy on the internet saying that the Razer Blackwidow's quality wasn't inferior to his Das Keyboard (but wait, he did made a five pages review, disassembled the thing and that was a review sample)... Ow well...

it's 1 guy, outta how many of the "REST OF US" here who got screwed by RAZER...
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 16 October 2012, 00:57:30
When I started looking for a mechanical keyboard earlier this year the first one (and only one) I found that matched my criteria was the BWU.  It had to be mac layout (command/option, eject etc.) and backlit.

I joined here and asked a few questions and did some research, and eventually settled on a Ducky Shine.

The only thing missing from the Ducky Shine was the eject key, but I installed a background app that put an icon on the menu bar that does eject (not that the optical drive in my Mac is especially reliable anyway).

Since then no worries at all.  But I do wonder what life would have been like had I bought the BWU.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Tue, 16 October 2012, 01:09:10
I'm surprised you can't feel a quality difference between the BW and the QFR.

Then again, I even found a guy on the internet saying that the Razer Blackwidow's quality wasn't inferior to his Das Keyboard (but wait, he did made a five pages review, disassembled the thing and that was a review sample)... Ow well...

it's 1 guy, outta how many of the "REST OF US" here who got screwed by RAZER...

It's one guy who probably got something in return for doing that review...  :))
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Tue, 16 October 2012, 01:18:39
I'm surprised you can't feel a quality difference between the BW and the QFR.

I do know the Costar stabilizers are smoother / easier to press down than the Cherry stabilizers but using a Costar stabilizer over a Cherry won't raise my productivity any... the Cherry one just seems kinda mushy in comparison. I tend to ignore this.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 October 2012, 01:27:52
When I started looking for a mechanical keyboard earlier this year the first one (and only one) I found that matched my criteria was the BWU.  It had to be mac layout (command/option, eject etc.) and backlit.

I joined here and asked a few questions and did some research, and eventually settled on a Ducky Shine.

The only thing missing from the Ducky Shine was the eject key, but I installed a background app that put an icon on the menu bar that does eject (not that the optical drive in my Mac is especially reliable anyway).

Since then no worries at all.  But I do wonder what life would have been like had I bought the BWU.
Had you bought the BWU, your girlfriend/wife would've left you for a better man, a man with a "costar" built magical wonder.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Tue, 16 October 2012, 01:46:34
When I started looking for a mechanical keyboard earlier this year the first one (and only one) I found that matched my criteria was the BWU.  It had to be mac layout (command/option, eject etc.) and backlit.

I joined here and asked a few questions and did some research, and eventually settled on a Ducky Shine.

The only thing missing from the Ducky Shine was the eject key, but I installed a background app that put an icon on the menu bar that does eject (not that the optical drive in my Mac is especially reliable anyway).

Since then no worries at all.  But I do wonder what life would have been like had I bought the BWU.
Had you bought the BWU, your girlfriend/wife would've left you for a better man, a man with a "costar" built magical wonder.
Lolz.. You probably would have bought 10 more board just to before you filled in the hole in which the BWU left you...
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Tue, 16 October 2012, 02:02:16
Call me the day Razer Keyboards can handle stuff like this.


And hell, I'm pretty sure my Das Keyboard also works as a melee weapon.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 October 2012, 03:23:05
Call me the day Razer Keyboards can handle stuff like this.


And hell, I'm pretty sure my Das Keyboard also works as a melee weapon.

Plate mounted really helps.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Tue, 16 October 2012, 03:27:19
I do know the Costar stabilizers are smoother / easier to press down than the Cherry stabilizers but using a Costar stabilizer over a Cherry won't raise my productivity any... the Cherry one just seems kinda mushy in comparison. I tend to ignore this.

Having tried both stabilizers on a few boards (mostly MX Red), I felt very little difference between the two except when bottoming out. I couldn't speak for the Blackwidows or other iOne boards, but I don't notice any difference in travel other than the Cherry stabilizers feeling like they have less play in most cases.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 16 October 2012, 04:27:23
Had you bought the BWU, your girlfriend/wife would've left you for a better man, a man with a "costar" built magical wonder.

Nah, she was like "why do you want to spend so much on a keyboard" to start with, but she can see how happy I am now.

Plus she ordered a CM QFR for me today :)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Carefoot on Tue, 16 October 2012, 05:17:34
I used a black widow for a few months in Seoul.  I upgraded to my HHKB2 now that I have from here. I don't really miss it.  I found the keys to be very large, and I found it to have a plastic like feel that my Filco never had.   Got my Filco after fruitdealer won GSL Season 1 with it.   Yayr.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Tue, 16 October 2012, 13:15:17
I used a black widow for a few months in Seoul.  I upgraded to my HHKB2 now that I have from here. I don't really miss it.  I found the keys to be very large, and I found it to have a plastic like feel that my Filco never had.   Got my Filco after fruitdealer won GSL Season 1 with it.   Yayr.

A free keyboard from fruit dealer?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Sifo on Tue, 16 October 2012, 16:29:10
WTF you got a keyboard from fruit dealer? I want it.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 16 October 2012, 16:35:21
Must have been an Apple keyboard.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: sovano on Tue, 16 October 2012, 17:03:20
I think he meant he bought a Filco after seeing Fruitdealer win with a Filco keyboard lol...
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Sifo on Tue, 16 October 2012, 17:04:51
Oh damn. I was about to say, I'm either giving him a ridiculous amount of money for it, or I'm stealing it.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Tue, 16 October 2012, 17:27:43
Lol. Go on ebay and search up the BlackWidow and any other keyboard you want. How many of the Black Widows are sold "for parts" "as-is" "for parts not working"?
I see none.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 16 October 2012, 18:13:48
What are you guys talking about with Cherry stabilizer? iOne use costar style. It's also plate mount, with metal though it might be aluminum or a very light gauge of steel.
If you don't see dozen broken BW on ebay, you must not be on ebay US. Bunch listed as is currently for under $40.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Tue, 16 October 2012, 19:56:30
My fault. I stated something false.

Well after doing some research, I can no longer try to defend the BWU. Lots and lots of returns due to crappy defects, like LEDS going out, the board sits uneven, stuff like that. I retract my statement from before about this being an okay starter board - I would definitely check out the CM Storm keyboards and not consider a BWU at this point.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: caffeine on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:14:33
My first mechanical keyboard was a Black Widow. The keyboard itself was perfectly fine and I got it on sale at Memory Express for a little less than $70. For that price and for overall convenience of actually picking it up and buying in-person, it was unbeatable and I loved the keyboard. If not for my Filco and my desire to regularly try new things, I'd probably still be using it today.

The big issue with it was that Razer's firmware update screwed it up and swapped some keys around and F1-F12 would only routinely work. I wasn't able to fix it, and Razer wasn't helpful at all. And because their keyboard warranty is only for a year, they wouldn't replace it. It wasn't until I raised the question at TechSpot and somebody eventually sent me an .exe they apparently got from Razer that fixed it. But by then, I had already ordered my Filco, so my Black Widow has since been retired to my shelf.

Other than the firmware issue and my general dislike of Synapse (though, it has gotten better - I also use a Naga as my primary mouse), the Black Widow was perfectly fine. I'm not sure if I could have picked a better keyboard to get me into mechanical keyboards in general - it was cheap, it was nice to type on, it lasted me until that firmware fault and ultimately that got fixed, and, this is strictly subjective, I do like Razer products. Overpriced and a bit too much fluff with their whole 'Cult of Gamers' thing, their stuff looks nice and distinctive without being horribly garish.

But I'm not sure if I'd recommend a first-time user to buy one today, though. The price is nice, but the fact that Razer's trying to tie everything through Synapse makes it unwelcoming and a bit undesirable.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:20:54
I do know the Costar stabilizers are smoother / easier to press down than the Cherry stabilizers but using a Costar stabilizer over a Cherry won't raise my productivity any... the Cherry one just seems kinda mushy in comparison. I tend to ignore this.

Having tried both stabilizers on a few boards (mostly MX Red), I felt very little difference between the two except when bottoming out. I couldn't speak for the Blackwidows or other iOne boards, but I don't notice any difference in travel other than the Cherry stabilizers feeling like they have less play in most cases.

The travel should be the same, but with the Cherry stabilizers the two little side pegs grind against the entry shaft more. So it feels more frictiony at the bottom. If you lube the shaft and cut the nubs, they should perform identically to costar.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:21:41
I used a black widow for a few months in Seoul.  I upgraded to my HHKB2 now that I have from here. I don't really miss it.  I found the keys to be very large, and I found it to have a plastic like feel that my Filco never had.   Got my Filco after fruitdealer won GSL Season 1 with it.   Yayr.

A free keyboard from fruit dealer?

Signed?????  :eek: :eek: :eek:
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Whiskeyfox on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:21:51
I'm currenly typing this on my BWU but it isn't easy.  Sometimes i hit a key like "u" or "i" and it just doesn't register...  sometimes  i hit space bar and it does two spaces, or "y" comes out as yy...  it's so hard to type anyything, and putting in my passwords is a nightmare, i usually have to tyype them somewhere where i can read it and then copyy and paste it.  I will  never buy another razer product ever again.  I just ordered a Keycool 87 white led/cherry reds, based on the info from this site.  Buyer beware on BWU.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:23:47
My fault. I stated something false.

Well after doing some research, I can no longer try to defend the BWU. Lots and lots of returns due to crappy defects, like LEDS going out, the board sits uneven, stuff like that. I retract my statement from before about this being an okay starter board - I would definitely check out the CM Storm keyboards and not consider a BWU at this point.

Ah... You've seen the light, and have corrected onto the path of the righteous; may fortune follow you....


Good job, geekhack.  :cool:
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:24:43
I'm currenly typing this on my BWU but it isn't easy.  Sometimes i hit a key like "u" or "i" and it just doesn't register...  sometimes  i hit space bar and it does two spaces, or "y" comes out as yy...  it's so hard to type anyything, and putting in my passwords is a nightmare, i usually have to tyype them somewhere where i can read it and then copyy and paste it.  I will  never buy another razer product ever again.  I just ordered a Keycool 87 white led/cherry reds, based on the info from this site.  Buyer beware on BWU.

what? why are you still using it? ;D
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:27:16
My first mechanical was a Blackwidow. Am fairly sure it was one of the first recent mechanical keyboards to actually be out in Australia, so I had no other choice but that or rubber dome. It worked fine for over a year but now it sometimes does oo instead of o. Other than that, had no issues with it at all. I don't think it's as bad as some make out, mine sits flat, as for LED issues, don't the Pure and that stuff have some issues with LED as well?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:28:23
My first mechanical was a Blackwidow. Am fairly sure it was one of the first recent mechanical keyboards to actually be out in Australia, so I had no other choice but that or rubber dome. It worked fine for over a year but now it sometimes does oo instead of o. Other than that, had no issues with it at all. I don't think it's as bad as some make out, mine sits flat, as for LED issues, don't the Pure and that stuff have some issues with LED as well?

The pure has "dim" leds, they don't usually go out though.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:30:49
My first mechanical was a Blackwidow. Am fairly sure it was one of the first recent mechanical keyboards to actually be out in Australia, so I had no other choice but that or rubber dome. It worked fine for over a year but now it sometimes does oo instead of o. Other than that, had no issues with it at all. I don't think it's as bad as some make out, mine sits flat, as for LED issues, don't the Pure and that stuff have some issues with LED as well?

The pure has "dim" leds, they don't usually go out though.
Hmm maybe I was thinking of a different keyboard with led issues. Can't recall. Eitherway, yes, I feel like a f-wit for buying a BW from all the comments on here, but meh. Lol.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:32:36
My first mechanical was a Blackwidow. Am fairly sure it was one of the first recent mechanical keyboards to actually be out in Australia, so I had no other choice but that or rubber dome. It worked fine for over a year but now it sometimes does oo instead of o. Other than that, had no issues with it at all. I don't think it's as bad as some make out, mine sits flat, as for LED issues, don't the Pure and that stuff have some issues with LED as well?

The pure has "dim" leds, they don't usually go out though.
Hmm maybe I was thinking of a different keyboard with led issues. Can't recall. Eitherway, yes, I feel like a f-wit for buying a BW from all the comments on here, but meh. Lol.

Hey man, don't feel bad, I bought the Black widow, a SECOND black widow, cuz I thought the first one was just bad luck.. And then I bought a 3rd Black Widow Ultimate, cuz I thought it was cuz I didn't throw enough money at it.  they were the only backlit boards at the time and I was stupid and young, and in college, and I liked blue lights, and I didn't know about ducky or any of that stuff.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Larken on Tue, 16 October 2012, 23:11:14
Other than the mice, and certain mice only, I wouldn't touch Razer products with a ten-foot pole (and by that I mean actually buying them). I did test the BWU before I got my first Filco, and at that time I was considering both since my knowledge of mech keyboards was pretty much zero. I went to the shop where both keyboards were available for testing. Boy, was I shocked at the difference in the feel of the switches although both switches were blue.

Its not that the BWU is bad, especially when comparing to rubber domes(although now I do think it is), but in comparison to other mechanical keyboards on the market, it kinda falls short, and isn't much cheaper anyway. In the end I started with a filco brown, which led to a ducky brown, which led to a cherry red. I want more keyboards, but I know its not a justified purchase. On the other hand, if money wasn't a concern, the order of my next keyboard purchases would likely be... Unicomp Ultra Classic/Model M, Something-With-Alps, and a board which I will eventually want Ergo Clears with. No where near any razers.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Tue, 16 October 2012, 23:25:22
Other than the mice, and certain mice only, I wouldn't touch Razer products with a ten-foot pole (and by that I mean actually buying them). I did test the BWU before I got my first Filco, and at that time I was considering both since my knowledge of mech keyboards was pretty much zero. I went to the shop where both keyboards were available for testing. Boy, was I shocked at the difference in the feel of the switches although both switches were blue.

Its not that the BWU is bad, especially when comparing to rubber domes(although now I do think it is), but in comparison to other mechanical keyboards on the market, it kinda falls short, and isn't much cheaper anyway. In the end I started with a filco brown, which led to a ducky brown, which led to a cherry red. I want more keyboards, but I know its not a justified purchase. On the other hand, if money wasn't a concern, the order of my next keyboard purchases would likely be... Unicomp Ultra Classic/Model M, Something-With-Alps, and a board which I will eventually want Ergo Clears with. No where near any razers.

Gotta catch them all right? I don't think I want to buy an IBM. Just the idea of a 30y.o. used keyboard... The rarity of these keyboards(there are more common ones but I haven't looked into it), and just the way it takes up space. I hear people say that it is the best keyboard of all time. Anyone else think that it is true?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Larken on Tue, 16 October 2012, 23:43:16
Gotta catch them all right? I don't think I want to buy an IBM. Just the idea of a 30y.o. used keyboard... The rarity of these keyboards(there are more common ones but I haven't looked into it), and just the way it takes up space. I hear people say that it is the best keyboard of all time. Anyone else think that it is true?

I would want one if I lived in the States. The weight of a model m really puts me off due to the shipping costs, and I don't like the form factor much either, which is why I'm leaning towards the unicomp, where the shipping is still off-putting, and I'm kinda afraid of dead on arrival cases as Unicomp seems to require the buyer pay the shipping back to them should the keyboard fail, even upon arrival. I'd eventually get one, but not now I guess.

I have the impression the original model Ms were built to a higher quality specification than their Unicomp counterparts. I would think in terms of a tactile, clicky experience, buckling springs would kick mx blues out of the park.  buckling springs vs blue alps, not so sure.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Wed, 17 October 2012, 02:10:34
I honestly used my BWU until I decided I wanted to try a different Cherry switch, going for the Das with brown switches (And I admit to being very embarrassed about my keyboard addiction at the time... these days I don't give a flying **** what people think about me and my keyboards :). I luckily never had any issues with my board other than that I got smudgy oil all over it from my hands and it was just too bulky.  Sold it a year ago to a co-worker.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Amarok on Wed, 17 October 2012, 11:50:34
I used the first model of the BWU for about 1 year until the d, g, ) and + keys all started having key chatter within the same week. I tried cleaning out the switches and nothing seemed to help. Now I use a WASD V1 with blues and QFR with blues.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Wed, 17 October 2012, 12:36:25
Key chatter? Please do elaborate on this.. You mean the keys got noisier?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Amarok on Wed, 17 October 2012, 13:21:54
Key chatter? Please do elaborate on this.. You mean the keys got noisier?

It's when the key is pressed it results in multiple presses on the screen, from what I found while searching online it was called "key chatter". Meaning when I pressed '+' it would register as either '+', '++' or even sometimes as '+++'. I read it is caused by the switch "bouncing" and resulting multiple key presses. I'm not sure if that's exactly how it happens, so if somebody has a better description please feel free to explain it.  :cool:
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Wed, 17 October 2012, 13:59:02
This is the exact reason I got rid of my old Model M.... The springs apparently got loose, or otherwise weak. A few of the keys when pressed, would "bounce" back down and register another keystroke.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: cosmonauti on Wed, 17 October 2012, 16:36:13
mods: who removed my posts? tp4tissue should be able to withstand a little criticism. I stated that it was his fault for ordering 3 razer keyboards that he now complains about.

it's his fault and maybe he should feel ashamed.

it's OK to continually bash a product but not have to take responsibility for said actions on a website that influences many consumers' decisions when push comes to shove?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: cosmonauti on Wed, 17 October 2012, 16:43:47
really is the censorship this forum that bad now?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 17 October 2012, 16:51:37
N
really is the censorship this forum that bad now?

you mad bro... ;D

No it's cuz you're a total fvck head, and need to tone it down..
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: cosmonauti on Wed, 17 October 2012, 21:11:21
nah, pretty sure you're wrong about the whole tone it down thing.
you should put a disclaimer in your sig saying "I'm a victim of consumerism and poor decisions"

but I'll reiterate, it's healthy to comprehend criticisms aimed at you.
let's try this:
ME|  I'll be the first to admit I'm a ****head.
YOU|  _____________________________
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: UezeU on Wed, 17 October 2012, 21:42:54
I had a bad experience with the Ultimate as well. My Unicomp crapped out and I need a quick replacement. The BlackWidow was the best I could do on short notice. I immediately hated the keycaps, to flat for my tastes. I figured I could get used to it but after about a week it went wonky a couple times; for a short period of time it wouldn't register some keystrokes and read the wrong keystroke on others, then back to normal.

I ordered a Das and returned the BWU when I received the Das. Then I found out that I prefer buckling spring over the MX Blue :)) At least I now have a backup that I like, thinking about a green mod though.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: cosmonauti on Wed, 17 October 2012, 22:25:50
greens /mods interest me as well. sucks that the keys started failing so soon, I'm 2 for 2 now on good BWU's.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about buckling springs, which one did you pick up?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Wed, 17 October 2012, 22:30:48
Anyone noticed the plate on their BW looking rusty? LOL. Mine is rusted.. Where the black paint has worn off,
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: suprsmo on Wed, 17 October 2012, 23:41:07
shiiiiiii really>?

any chance you can pull some caps and get a photo going MM?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Wed, 17 October 2012, 23:43:38
shiiiiiii really>?

any chance you can pull some caps and get a photo going MM?
Will do later on. It's weird, I first thought it was something stuck there, but it certainly seems like rust to me and it's in more than one spot, also where it should be smooth paint it looks like rust is breaking through underneath making it more textured.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: UezeU on Thu, 18 October 2012, 00:05:56
greens interest me as well. sucks that the keys started failing so soon, I'm 2 for 2 now on good BWU's.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about buckling springs, which one did you pick up?

I went back to Unicomp and got one of their Ultra Classics. The previous keyboard had lasted me 5 years so the death wasn't unreasonable. So far I really like the smaller size of the Ultra (had the old school 101 before). It is not perfect but it gives me the best typing experience. The MX Blue is just a tad too light. I would get all kinds of accidental key-presses.

I was afraid of going back to the Model M. I had some bad luck with used ones after trying to replace my original M. It does seem like others have had better luck though. Plus, the Unicomp comes in black.

My current board:
(http://i.imgur.com/ScQHb.jpg)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Lu_e on Thu, 18 October 2012, 01:12:23
Hit and miss I guess. Not worth the logos or risk involved basically, I mostly didnt like the macro keys. But my bwu blue works fine for the ~8 months of sc2 before I got the QFR red.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Saturn on Thu, 18 October 2012, 04:02:44
Gotta catch them all right? I don't think I want to buy an IBM. Just the idea of a 30y.o. used keyboard... The rarity of these keyboards(there are more common ones but I haven't looked into it), and just the way it takes up space. I hear people say that it is the best keyboard of all time. Anyone else think that it is true?

I used to use an IBM Model M at work.  No one complained about the noise; it was a small work environment, and we all loved clicky keyboards.  There's no denying that it was a durable, well constructed keyboard, but best keyboard of all time?  Not unless you're viewing it through the lens of nostalgia or REALLY like buckling springs.

One thing to keep in mind is that BS is not a purely mechanical switch; the Model M still uses a membrane in it.  The older Model F used capacitive switches.  One thing that does kinda amaze me about those keyboards, though, is that I believe their stock keycaps are dye-sublimated PBT.  How many keyboard companies do that nowadays?  Other than Unicomp, only Topre, I think.

As far as the Blackwidow goes, I'm not surprised at all to hear all the negative responses about it.  Razer's never had a very good reputation when it comes to build quality, so the fact that they went with an OEM that has such a history of manufacturing defects seems about par for the course.  It's not that Razer's products are guaranteed to fail or arrive dripping with radioactive goo or anything like that, but for almost every Razer product out there, there's a better alternative for the same price or cheaper.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: cosmonauti on Thu, 18 October 2012, 06:54:09
I'll agree there are better alternatives. When I picked up my BWU, however, there wasn't. It was either that or scorpius u9bl, I ended up picking up the BWU the day it came out for under $100 shipped.

I'm excited about my trigger, should be here in around 4 days.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: cosmonauti on Thu, 18 October 2012, 06:55:24
UezeU that's a nice looking board, digging the blank black caps. I'd like to have something like that at work
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Xplaced on Thu, 18 October 2012, 22:05:45
I'm pretty amazed at the BlackWidow put-downs, really. But, I say that because mine's worked great for a year. I'll clarify that I have the Expert though, not the ultimate. So I automatically rule out the possibility of having lighting issues. ;)

I received my Rapid with blues today to compare to my BW Expert. I like the feel of the Rapid more. The BW isn't bad, by any means, but the keys are just a little easier to push on the Rapid, so I like that. Also I really want the 10keyless form factor, so... ha! Not much else in that price range. Razer makes a tourny board or something, but I like the looks of this (rapid) a little more.

I'll probably sell my BW because I don't need it if I keep this one. My decision now is do I keep this blue board, or do I keep the Rapid with browns... I really can't make up my mind. The noise of the blues is SO LOUD, but I like it in a way. I think it aggravates everyone else though (everyone else being my wife!). As long as it won't keep her awake at night... ha! We'll see, since I'm trying this while she's trying to sleep... fortunately she's two rooms over, but dang. I still feel like this thing might be heard. I type around 85 wpm average, so the noise from blues really stands out. All the little click-clacks tend to run together. :)

I think that one reason there are more negative reviews in the mix with Razer boards is that they are also probably the most popular. I had no idea Rapids existed until I did research. Plus, at the time I bought my BW, I don't think there were as many mech boards to choose from. And, I wanted something I could return if I didn't want it, so getting something from Best Buy was an option, and they carried the BW. Seems like if you sell 1000 things, you'll have a higher number of dissatisfied customers than if you sell 100 things. I think the Razer boards fall into that "1000 things" category because they have a larger market share than most other folks with these (at least so far). Seeing as how Best Buy and places like that don't really sell any other mech boards... well, what choice do consumers have?

Honestly, I feel like I could keep my BW and be happy. The Rapid is great and feels good, but the Razer feels good too. I think it just boils down to personal preference. Ultimately, I see myself ending up with the Rapid with browns, because the brown feel is a little lighter and not as noisy. Still noisy though. :) Enough noise to make me happy at least. The blues, well, they are really noisy and that's fine by me, but I have to be a little considerate of others. Then again I'm the only one here using it for 8 hours out of the day, so... who knows what I'll pick. Ha!
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 18 October 2012, 22:27:59
Some people do have no problems with BWU (or other BW keyboard).  But it seems that either they are in the minority, and/or have not tried an alternative keyboard.

Have you tried a different mechanical keyboard for any length of time?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Thu, 18 October 2012, 22:39:46
Well, first of all, take off this thing "If you sell 1000 things you'll have a higher number of dissatisfied customers than if you sell 100 things". XArmor keyboards are also made by the same OEM as Razer (iOne) and that doesn't changes the fact that they suck, and badly.

What sort of excuse exists for those, if they don't sell nowhere near as well as the BW or BWU but still have lots of failed units?

Besides, if you want to defend Razer's quality, you need to defend iOne's quality as well, since they're the ones making this keyboard. And about Razer's quality, have you ever seen the review's section on Amazon regarding the Razer Lycosa? That's the quality of Razer products right there and how much they care about it.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: UezeU on Fri, 19 October 2012, 05:21:19
UezeU that's a nice looking board, digging the blank black caps. I'd like to have something like that at work

Thanks. Unicomp is very reasonable with the replacement keys, gotta love 1 piece PBT. Reading this thread reminds me of the most important thing about boards. No board fits all. Find what makes your fingers happy.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Fri, 19 October 2012, 10:15:19
I think this is more than enough reason why people shouldn't defend Razer. Take a look at their US$ 70 membrane keyboard, the Razer Lycosa:

(http://www.razerzone.ru/media/brands/2011-11-21/razer-lycosa-main_1.jpg)


Pretty, aye? Well then, check this out:

Natural wearing after 3 years

Keys that don't work properly

If you can stand and defend Razer after seeing this... Well...
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: cosmonauti on Fri, 19 October 2012, 10:18:14
Words of wisdom from UezeU.

wetto everyone knows the lycosa sucks. beating a dead horse.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: cosmonauti on Fri, 19 October 2012, 10:36:41
also not defending razer. I wouldn't touch that keyboard with a ten foot pole.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 19 October 2012, 13:37:58
Seen that video before. I don't watch reviews about razer much anymore. Its more like people promoting razer or people that are brainwashed by the cult of razer. That or one like yours that shows crazy problems.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Rumudiez on Fri, 19 October 2012, 19:28:42
I'm not going to add to this discussion despite having owned and almost immediately returned a Black Widow some time ago, but I do really want to say that general reviews on product pages in stars/eggs/etc. are almost always complete bull**** that you should disregard completely. Most consumers have no idea what they're purchasing in regards to any product, so their opinions frankly don't really matter--failure rates might be accurate, but the system as a whole is pretty inconsistent.

Still not contributing: iONE is terrible and "only" makes nonstandard keyboards that you can't do **** to, from key caps to controller upgrades.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Whiskeyfox on Fri, 19 October 2012, 19:57:38
guys/gals,

true shocking story:

I just got back from walmart and had to make my report.  Walmart now stocks in my local store the newer green backlit BWU for sale.  I never in my life thought i'd see a mechanical keyboard at walmart, but there ya go.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Fri, 19 October 2012, 19:59:47
guys/gals,

true shocking story:

I just got back from walmart and had to make my report.  Walmart now stocks in my local store the newer green backlit BWU for sale.  I never in my life thought i'd see a mechanical keyboard at walmart, but there ya go.

They're disposable, what's the surprise?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Sifo on Fri, 19 October 2012, 22:21:16
lol sad part is, the first keyboard I ever bought was the Razer Lycosa (other than like, stock ones I had laying around)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Fri, 19 October 2012, 23:15:40
Ok now that RL has finally settled down for the moment (Thank **** for that :\ ) I took the keys off to take a picture of the rust for you all. Keep in mind, this keyboard has had NO liquids or anything like that. (http://imageshack.us/a/img805/4969/20121020143714.jpg)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Sifo on Fri, 19 October 2012, 23:16:34
LOL ew...
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Fri, 19 October 2012, 23:17:05
It's weird. How it got rusty is beyond me. But yeah.. :\
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Sat, 20 October 2012, 00:07:20
Eeeeeewwwwww! How in the nine bloody hells?

How old is that keyboard and where in the nine hells do you live? There must be a reason why that happened....
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Sat, 20 October 2012, 00:34:49
I got the keyboard at the end of 2010. I live in Australia, in New South Wales. I really can't think of anything that could have contributed to it unless somehow hot weather had an impact on it. And I have no idea what that Z on it is or where that came from.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: UezeU on Sat, 20 October 2012, 01:15:40
It is likely that the plate was not properly prepared before the application of paint. A rust-inhibiting primer and a proper surface treatment would prevent that. I would not be surprised if every BlackWidow suffers the same fate unless the production methods have changed.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 20 October 2012, 02:00:49
Looks like you bleed on it, pissed on it, spilled various liquids on it,  used it to dig a hole outside, and repeated it or uses the computer in the bathroom.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Sat, 20 October 2012, 02:12:18
Yeah well I can say for sure that no one has done any of those things to it.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 20 October 2012, 02:23:34
Yikes :eek:

I have keyboards older than that with no rust.  Like, decades older.

Maybe a manufacturing defect, perhaps the paint not even applied or something.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Sat, 20 October 2012, 02:27:32
Unless a kangaroo piddled on it while I wasn't looking..
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 20 October 2012, 04:53:15
Or a wombat ;)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 20 October 2012, 05:19:58
or Nemo
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: bounce on Sat, 20 October 2012, 11:22:05
maybe you are sweating just more than average while typing? :p
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 20 October 2012, 14:59:06
Looks like you dont wash your hands.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: laffindude on Sat, 20 October 2012, 15:00:38
Kinda funny that glowing review thread turned into a Razer bashing thread.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 20 October 2012, 15:37:33
Kinda funny that glowing review thread turned into a Razer bashing thread.

I love razer, just not most of their products. Or prices/value. At least they look great! I am more fond of them than Apple, much more. I do like Mac products, they are easy to use and quite convenient. I just dont like their business style or their mindless drones that say "Windows, Samsung, and everything else are made of ****/crap and is nothing like Apple" tbh most Macs and PCs are the same hardware wise, only thing different would be the software. So all in all at least Razer has less mindless drones than Apple. ;)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Sifo on Sat, 20 October 2012, 20:20:40
I don't mind Razer's mice. That's about it.. I've got Razer mouse + pad and earbuds... their keyboards are god awful. Mostly only buying their products to support eSports.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Sat, 20 October 2012, 21:23:56
Agree with the other two posts above. BWU bashing maybe you can see some of that here, but Razer not really. I own several Razer products like the Razer Ferox speakers, several mice, a couple keyboards.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Sat, 20 October 2012, 21:30:58
I owned a great Razer mice, the Razer Deathadder, but since my grip isn't really palm, it never really fitted me. Nowadays I have a mice that really fits me (Corsair M60), but I don't have anything to complain about my old mice.

Besides, I still have a Razer Goliathus mousepad, which in my opinion is damn great.

It's not like we hate Razer. Just that we dislike their keyboards since they're not worth as much as they're trying to sell and their quality isn't as good as advertised. I mean, if Razer changed their OEM to Costar (or hell, even maybe PLUM), we certainly wouldn't be bashing them on this thread.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: UezeU on Sat, 20 October 2012, 22:06:55
A lot of the flak that Razer gets is because of the "gamer" tilt that their products are given. Many, including myself, use a computer for a living and having something designed for this demographic is hard to take seriously. At least they haven't resorted to plastering rifle cartridges all over products like some motherboard manufacturers. That is where I draw the line with styling. My computer is not a machine gun, even if the keyboard makes it sound like one  :p
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 20 October 2012, 22:11:44
A lot of the flak that Razer gets is because of the "gamer" tilt that their products are given. Many, including myself, use a computer for a living and having something designed for this demographic is hard to take seriously. At least they haven't resorted to plastering rifle cartridges all over products like some motherboard manufacturers. That is where I draw the line with styling. My computer is not a machine gun, even if the keyboard makes it sound like one  :p

Hahah... so true. I need weapons on all my stuff. It makes me feel faster and manly-er.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Human on Sun, 21 October 2012, 02:12:52
Kinda funny that glowing review thread turned into a Razer bashing thread.

I love razer, just not most of their products. Or prices/value. At least they look great! I am more fond of them than Apple, much more. I do like Mac products, they are easy to use and quite convenient. I just dont like their business style or their mindless drones that say "Windows, Samsung, and everything else are made of ****/crap and is nothing like Apple" tbh most Macs and PCs are the same hardware wise, only thing different would be the software. So all in all at least Razer has less mindless drones than Apple. ;)
Good looks don't promise a good using experience. In other words, looks are more of an gimmicks than real deal.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Sun, 21 October 2012, 02:33:50
Kinda funny that glowing review thread turned into a Razer bashing thread.

I love razer, just not most of their products. Or prices/value. At least they look great! I am more fond of them than Apple, much more. I do like Mac products, they are easy to use and quite convenient. I just dont like their business style or their mindless drones that say "Windows, Samsung, and everything else are made of ****/crap and is nothing like Apple" tbh most Macs and PCs are the same hardware wise, only thing different would be the software. So all in all at least Razer has less mindless drones than Apple. ;)
Good looks don't promise a good using experience. In other words, looks are more of an gimmicks than real deal.

Speak the truth homie!

P.S. youre at message 666, its your lucky day!
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Sun, 21 October 2012, 04:24:22
I definitely wash my hands and I think it would take more than someone not washing their hands to make part of the keyboard they don't even touch rusty.. Need to have something oozing off the hands I'd assume.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: ih8 on Sun, 21 October 2012, 22:04:27
I can't believe this thread has been this much of a success.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Fri, 02 November 2012, 14:34:38
If anybody wonders what to do with their BWU I think this mod is great inspiration.... IDK I just stumbled across it and was like holy crap that's bad ass.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hifidelity4ever/8143096997/in/photostream/

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 02 November 2012, 16:08:30
Looks very nice. Thought it was wood but looks more like copper. If it is wouldn't it oxidize.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: Sifo on Fri, 02 November 2012, 16:41:07
I'm betting it's wood... looks like the same finish on the keycaps painted.

Reminded me of that steampunk model m
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Fri, 02 November 2012, 18:41:08
Just looked up the M steampunk on the google... super dope. I think I'm getting a Unicomp soon, the black / black with no legends. It would be nice to mod it ---- I only wanna add weight and solidity.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: bail_w on Sat, 03 November 2012, 01:36:53
i have a razer black widow and i have no problem with it so far. I love it
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: do_Og@n on Sat, 03 November 2012, 02:48:01
I owned and used the Razer Blackwidow Ultimate for about 6 months before I sold it. I wouldn't say it is a bad keyboard but after using it and then using a newly purchased filco I could feel a huge difference. Earlier models seemed to have more issues than the newer ones though.

If you like it....use it, but I would upgrade to a different brand once it breaks.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Sat, 03 November 2012, 03:51:13
Someone I know got one of the new BW's the other day and the same day had to exchange it due to the key chattering. *rolls eyes*
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Sat, 03 November 2012, 10:10:03
If anybody wonders what to do with their BWU I think this mod is great inspiration.... IDK I just stumbled across it and was like holy crap that's bad ass.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hifidelity4ever/8143096997/in/photostream/

(Attachment Link)

Only way in the world to make me wish badly for a certain Razer BWU.

Words can't even describe how awesome that thing looks.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: hotlikedimes on Sun, 04 November 2012, 10:41:02
I loved my BWU at first and then I got my ducky and there's a definite difference in build quality.. So much so that I'm definitely looking to sell this thing and get a new keyboard... I love the blue's though and I couldn't live without a keyboard that has blue's so I've gotta hold onto this guy until I can get something to replace it.  But for what it is, it definitely is a bit gimmicky and over priced, but overall I like it. Mostly for the blue's though...
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 04 November 2012, 21:40:26
It's always interesting to hear testimonial from happy BWU users when they first try a different keyboard :)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 15 November 2012, 20:38:15
(http://i.imgur.com/YBN0m.jpg)

My das
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: lazerpointer on Thu, 15 November 2012, 20:44:49
That's what a little bit of the right stuff can do to a metal plate ;)
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 15 November 2012, 20:47:26
On noes!  Poor Das!

Someone else had a keyboard with a prematurely rusty plate.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: wetto on Thu, 15 November 2012, 20:49:47
That gave chills to my spine, seriously...  :eek:


Now, is that due to a bad quality painting or due to some highly corrosive liquid (Coke)?
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 15 November 2012, 20:51:03
Not sure If this was from before or after I got it. Might be commoner than we think
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Fri, 16 November 2012, 01:25:55
Not sure If this was from before or after I got it. Might be commoner than we think
LOL. Makes your comment to me saying that it looks like I don't wash my hands even funnier.
Title: Re: Review I found on the BlackWidow - your thoughts?
Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 16 November 2012, 01:45:27
I know, That is why I posted it.  ;D