geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: Hyde on Sun, 21 October 2012, 11:16:42
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Hello I have to say I'm new to all this custom keycaps stuff. But recently just really got suckered into it and start looking into the group buy forum a lot (LOL OMG MY WALLET).
Though I read a few post somewhere saying that the keycaps on left side keys usually grinds filcos cases from Signature Plastic. Is it true? Also is it fixable?
And is there other reasons why people don't like keys from Signature Plasitc? Seems like people are buying the Chinese produced PBT over SP keys now.
Any input would be appreciated, thanks !
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I don't like SP DCS because the bottom row are too angled. I occasionally will buy top row key. The profile on those are pretty close to Cherry so feel ok when mix. There also often quality problems. They can be pretty bad at getting legend alignment correct on sets, they have reversed legends before, ran key in wrong colors, leave the sprues on keys... on some they are on the front even. Lot of little things like that but you expect more and things to be right when you pay good money for something.
Unfortuneatly they have a near monopoly on doubleshots. Only other place that is known that make keyboard caps doubleshot for small order is Devlin, but they don't offer it on profile like most of us want. Only spherical and flat key and are much more expensive.
I found some Chinese plastics company that can do it, but need set moq in the thousands so not really an option.
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Though I read a few post somewhere saying that the keycaps on left side keys usually grinds filcos cases from Signature Plastic. Is it true? Also is it fixable?
Really? Hmm.. I have a few sets from SP on my various Filcos and haven't noticed this problem yet (fingers crossed). And also I think more than a few members here like PBT keycaps from SP but it's just that their price is a little too high.
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I wrote a huge list of reasons why I didn't like SP's ABS keys back in ripster's thread a long time ago. But yes, I had problems with the left sided keys on my old filco.
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Well, I prefer the feel of PBT... although the SP caps are very nicely textured.
Looking at the CCnG set, the font is uneven, a lot of the symbols are over sized compared to other symbols (thicker lines). The Cherry font project will hopefully finish soon and fix all the issues of look.
Some people don't like the SP space bar profile.
I have yet to see a color scheme that really grabs me enough to get an SP set for myself.
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Those SP spacebars are sharp!
The SP PBT keys are actually pretty decent looking (nyan cat), and they actually have stems for o-rings to be used. Its just too expensive to get a PBT set from SP.
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I love SP's keycaps since we have no many choices for double-shot keycaps on the market. Just hope they can change the R1 profile. :(
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Their stabilizer-insert 'stems' on large keys seem to be VERY loose (see 'tape mod'), my only real gripe aside from the big sprue marks.
I just like to have matching profiles SP will 99% of the time be the same dcs. SO: whether it be a full SP dcs set, vs OEM (original mfr. keys, WASD brand, NIQMODS [for the most part], clickclacks, china keys? [lol] all OEM), vs some other shape/profile (OG Cherry, qwerkeys different series', or custom; cc BMX, girldc, gasmask [basically oem?] etc.)
You just have to figure out which can mix together 'correctly'. I personally just went all sp for now (had to tape mod like every stabilized key) kinda annoying, dunno if there are differences in stabilizer inserts? might be nice;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/HeartagramBMXR/IMG_3834.jpg)
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Those SP spacebars are sharp!
The SP PBT keys are actually pretty decent looking (nyan cat), and they actually have stems for o-rings to be used. Its just too expensive to get a PBT set from SP.
[attachimg=1]
SP esc key with an o-ring (imsto's large) that almost stops the key from bottoming out...
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It works if you get the large o-rings or stack multiple o-rings. But of course it feels different.
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Just echoing some sentiments here:
1. Nice textured feel.
2. Loose inserts for stabilizers.
3. Bottom row is too sharply angled. This probably bothers me the most, it feels pretty unnatural.
4. I haven't had any problems with keys along the sides rubbing against the case.
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Thanks for the replies guys !
Mmmmmm I guess everyone's been having difference experiences. But it sounds like I'm probably better off stick with PBT than SP's double shots >___>
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leave the sprues on keys... on some they are on the front even.
To be fair, any keycap (or any injection molded item that is not further machined) will have that sprue mark. My Cherry keycaps all have sprue marks, as do unicomp, etc. SP just has theirs on the front, instead of the normal on the back. SP's larger keys have it on the side, which is fine.
But injection moulded keycaps will have sprue marks. It's just a fact of engineering.
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Also, SP's PBT is very nice. The sprue marks are in the back, I think it's a little thicker. even if not, it's a good keycap, though they had some issues with getting the legends printed straight on some, and they made a key in he wrong profile (not sure how that happened).
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SP's dyesub keys are actually pretty nice. I personally think they look nicer than imsto's thick cherry keys. Maybe it's because SP's white seems more.. white.
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I'm more than happy with my SP doubleshots :D
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The issues with SP's keys are minor IMO. Doubleshot legends are clean and precise in a way that dyesubs just can't match. And the color options are much greater. For legended keys, I much prefer 2-shots, whether they are from Cherry or SP. For blanks, which I also really like, PBT is my preference.
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Their stabilizer-insert 'stems' on large keys seem to be VERY loose (see 'tape mod'), my only real gripe aside from the big sprue marks.
I just like to have matching profiles SP will 99% of the time be the same dcs. SO: whether it be a full SP dcs set, vs OEM (original mfr. keys, WASD brand, NIQMODS [for the most part], clickclacks, china keys? [lol] all OEM), vs some other shape/profile (OG Cherry, qwerkeys different series', or custom; cc BMX, girldc, gasmask [basically oem?] etc.)
You just have to figure out which can mix together 'correctly'. I personally just went all sp for now (had to tape mod like every stabilized key) kinda annoying, dunno if there are differences in stabilizer inserts? might be nice;
I found that the stabliser inserts from Wasdkeyboards fit into the stems of the SP DS keys, but my filco ones did not.
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I love SP keys but I do agree the bottom row is too angled foreword. And on my race the function row is noticeably lower than my number row with SP profile. But the selection is unmatched by other profiles for novelties. So keep the SP coming!
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The issues with SP's keys are minor IMO. Doubleshot legends are clean and precise in a way that dyesubs just can't match.
I don't know. The first portal set has some really precise Dyesub on that PBT. IT can also get into smaller detail, and more colours than DS. The only DS I actually use is that green set I got, and only because I love the colour. Lasering can often be pretty indistinct, but SP's Dyesubs are actually really nice.
The worst part about SP's profile is that stupid spacebar/bottom row angle. I feel bad for those people with SP titanium spacebars, they must cut themselves on it!
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So 1st of all I work at SP, you can see my new members post for the details if interested.
To answer your original question, yes some people don’t like our keycaps and bad news often travels far and fast. Fortunately a lot of people do like them and we've been able to participate in some interesting projects for various GH'ers. We have double shot, dye sub and pad print but I think we are best known for the doubleshot keycaps.
We work hard to get the quality right thru the different processes but there are literally a lot of moving parts and mistakes do happen. We ship a lot of different keys each month in a lot of configurations and have a good track record of accuracy but obviously for each recipient that gets a wrong key it’s a bad deal. Sounds like lysol has had some especially bad luck so sorry about that.
Legend/font is often a matter of taste. I am always amazed/impressed at the effort people make to get the legends just how they want, I have seen dozens of different configuration for an “enter” or “shift” key with very minor changes. So not surprisingly our ‘standard’ legends don’t please everyone all the time. It’s a tradeoff to use an existing legend or spend extra to adjust a font slightly to get closer to what is wanted. There are also physical constraints on the lettering due to the doubleshot process and that can be frustrating for people sometimes.
The angled row (we call it R4 but many here call it R1) is in our tooling and can’t be adjusted without rebuilding a lot of tooling which is cost prohibitive. Ironically it is the hardest for us to manufacture also so it’s not very popular in the shop either, we can share some misery on that one.
Thanks for the various comments and insights here.
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The issues with SP's keys are minor IMO. Doubleshot legends are clean and precise in a way that dyesubs just can't match. And the color options are much greater. For legended keys, I much prefer 2-shots, whether they are from Cherry or SP. For blanks, which I also really like, PBT is my preference.
i'm agnostic on 2-shots vs dyesub. all known PBT molds (including SP's) have a satisfying *thunk* that ABS can't quite match. OTOH 2-shots are sharp, contrasty and have huge color varieties that PBT dyesub can't match.
anyway, the point is that the different materials and processes have different engineering tradeoffs, and SP's 2-shot process hits a really nice point on the tradeoff curve for the vast vast majority of people. there are a few people who don't care for them but it's literally a few people.
as for KBC's PBT caps (the chinese PBTs you're referring to), those hit a different point in the tradeoff curve. the color variety is significantly smaller, but they have the do have the PBT thunk and can be dyesubbed with legends of arbitrary complexity (but not color!).
personally, my favorite thing to do (as you'll see with the geekhack pack) is to mix and match the two according to one's needs regarding style, profile etc. in particular, KBC caps can be obtained in cherry profile, which is very very close to the SP profile we use, EXCEPT that the bottom row is flatter. some people (notably tsangan, god of keycap collecting) swap out their SP spacebars with KBC cherry spacebars specifically for specifically this reason.
anyway, the point is that all the manufacturers we work with make high quality products, but there are a lot of tradeoffs involved in making keycaps. we work with the firms and people we do because they're all very good at hitting different points on the tradeoff curve, so it's a gross mischaracterization to say that no one likes any particular keycap model. of course, people have their favorites, but for the most part people enjoy having a variety of parts to choose from, just like with keyswitches.