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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: iBro on Fri, 26 October 2012, 15:40:06
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Let me first say that I have already done a moderate amount of searching on geekhack and other sites, but I still have a few questions about alps switches and boards that use them.
1) Why are modern alps keyboards (duckys) so cheap? (35 USD! http://global.pchome.com.tw/english/?mod=item&func=exhibit&IT_NO=DCAH0X-A59130655&SR_NO=SBAE0W&ROWNO=1&tm=e (http://global.pchome.com.tw/english/?mod=item&func=exhibit&IT_NO=DCAH0X-A59130655&SR_NO=SBAE0W&ROWNO=1&tm=e) ) Does the price cut come from lack of overall quality of the board? Does it come from lack of quality of the switches? Or are they cheaper just because alps switches are that much cheaper than cherrys.
2) I have heard that "XM" alps switches are "universally taken to be extremely bad switches". The keyboard I linked earlier uses XM black switches, which I hear are tactile, non-clicky switches. These would be right up my ally, but I would like more information on why people don't like XM switches.
3) Has anyone reviewed the Matias Quiet Pro keyboard? I think it uses dampened white alps, but all my efforts in searching for a review have been futile.
4) Do any companies sell key cap sets for alps boards? I'm mainly interested in PBT.
Thanks for answering whatever questions you can!
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1) No clue
2) huhhhhh derp
3) Engadget did one, but I use one every day in the office and I love it. These are completely unique alps that matias designed for in-house and sales purposes.
4) No.
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Early Apple Extended Keyboards and Design Keyboards used PBT keys for Alps. They are nice keys, but use the faint italic legends that Apple likes but don't match anybody else's.
You will surely < not > be able to harvest a complete set from them, but if you can live with a mismatch, you might get close.
If XM switches are the black Alps that are in the Dell AT101, then they are not nearly so bad as some people let on.
An AT101 in good condition can be a very nice board. Or a very bad board. You won't know until you use it.
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Couple of reviews:
http://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/09/matias-quiet-pro-for-pc-and-mac-featuring-brand-new-quiet-click-switches/
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/11/matias-quiet-pro-keyboard-review/
keycapsdirect.com sells a red/white or red/black escape for alps, but I've not come across a full set anywhere as of yet.
video of ducky green alps:
video of ducky black alps:
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Thanks for the replies so far. Most of my questions have been answered. But I'm still interested in why XM alps switches are so bad. If they are that bad, I'm wondering if the Ducky with Alps Black switches would even be worth it, no matter how cheap it is.
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1. Alps vary widely in quality, and thus also in price. XM Alps are at the low end of the scale, but the Ducky XM boards also have several quality issues unrelated to the switches. Mine died after a couple of months-- recommendation: avoid.
2. Ducky black XMs, unlike some other varieties of black Alps, are linear. I had green rather than black XMs, and though they were nice to press, they suffered from several issues. For one, they were extremely wobbly even by Alps standards-- the tactile non-clicky black Alps in a D07-135TNG I had later were significantly less wobbly (and the D07 was actually cheaper than the Ducky, too). Secondly, the activation point was not only very high on the switch, it was actually before (rather than aligned with) the tactile/click point; combined with the wobbliness, this resulted in a lot of unwanted extra keypresses. Deactivation time was also fairly slow, so in games, minimal move distance was high, resulting in decreased precision.
3. MQP uses a Matias-developed new form of Alps with internal dampening. There are plenty of reviews around. '
4. You can find Alps keycaps around occasionally, but it's pretty rare.
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Thanks for the replies so far. Most of my questions have been answered. But I'm still interested in why XM alps switches are so bad. If they are that bad, I'm wondering if the Ducky with Alps Black switches would even be worth it, no matter how cheap it is.
Sorry to reply with *another* video link, but here's a rather recent review of the Ducky green, and the reviewer seems quite pleased with it. (I've been watching a lot of alps board reviews myself lately, as I've recently become quite the alps fan.)
I haven't personally had fingers on a Ducky, but I have noted both very positive feedback and negative feedback regarding them. For the money, and considering the usually-more-positive-than-negative reputation, I'd say it's worth a go. There's always someone willing to buy used boards if you don't like it.
EDIT: heh, pay more attention obviously to the voice of hands-on experience in the previous post. :-)
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1. Alps vary widely in quality, and thus also in price. XM Alps are at the low end of the scale, but the Ducky XM boards also have several quality issues unrelated to the switches. Mine died after a couple of months-- recommendation: avoid.
2. Ducky black XMs, unlike some other varieties of black Alps, are linear. I had green rather than black XMs, and though they were nice to press, they suffered from several issues. For one, they were extremely wobbly even by Alps standards-- the tactile non-clicky black Alps in a D07-135TNG I had later were significantly less wobbly (and the D07 was actually cheaper than the Ducky, too). Secondly, the activation point was not only very high on the switch, it was actually before (rather than aligned with) the tactile/click point; combined with the wobbliness, this resulted in a lot of unwanted extra keypresses. Deactivation time was also fairly slow, so in games, minimal move distance was high, resulting in decreased precision.
3. MQP uses a Matias-developed new form of Alps with internal dampening. There are plenty of reviews around. '
4. You can find Alps keycaps around occasionally, but it's pretty rare.
Hmm I wasn't aware that the black alps the ducky uses are linear. I really like the dampened cream alps that I'm typing on now, so I was hoping to find a newer board with similar switches. I was avoiding the green alps because I heard that they were even louder than mx blues.
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XM switch isn't bad. Rest of the board... It is a 30 dollar board and feels like it.
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The dell boards looks pretty nice and tje price looks nice too. That woyld probably be the board I would get into alps with. It seems to be better than ducky. I have heard some reviews about the matais and it is probably the best if not the only place to get alps right now. I also hear tjat white alps are similar to the legendary blue alps. If only they made a windows version for I am not mac user. I would get the loud version cause I hear that feels the best. I would concider getting some Apple extended ii or whatever variatoon but most seem to be quite dirty and looks like it would be a prokect jist to clean tjem up.
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Either Apple Extended Keyboard MO115 (pink Alps) or AEK2 MO3501 (dampened cream Alps) will need an ADB to USB adapter which sell on ebay for $20-40. They are almost always dirty but clean up OK. Yellowing I have never fixed too well.
I have bought multiple 115s (always used and cheap) and every one of them has at least a couple of dead keys. I have 2 in the basement now, and plan to do a transplant one of these days.
The 3501s are much cheaper and more plentiful, but I do not like them as well. Other people do.
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The biggest issue I see with Alps switches in general is that they feel different from other types. They are wonderful when hit straight on, and kinda wonky from an angle. Although that is noticeably worse to me at first, and better after you use them a bit.
I personally love my AT101, and would recommend one if you want a cheap way to try out the switches. You can usually snag one off Ebay for cheap and they are pretty sturdy (and simple).
Don't have any first-hand experience with the Duckies. Just heard complaints about build-quality.
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1) Matias keyboards use ALPS switches and I would not characterize them as cheap in price or construction. I have the full size version of the one you linked to. I like the Green ALPS a lot (very tactile and very clicky). But the build quality is pretty bad...you get what you pay for where that is concerned. The keys are very wobbly. Not sure if that is due to the switch or the board.
3) I have a Matias Quiet Pro that I use as my daily driver at work. I love it. As close to the AEKII as I think you can get, and in some ways, better (USB & USB hub). The new Matias quiet switch is not nearly as wobbly as the Green ALPS either. I've tried all the cherry types and I'd go so far as to say it's my favorite switch.
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Real Greens are linear, FYI. The greens in the Ducky are XM's. :)
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Here are some more reviews:
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/4858/matias_tactile_pro_3_0_mechanical_keyboard_review/index1.html
(Tactile Pro 3)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32769.msg684661#msg684661
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36595.msg693847#msg693847
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32769.msg675873#msg675873
http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/http-matias-ca-quietpro-t3979.html
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Real Greens are linear, FYI. The greens in the Ducky are XM's. :)
Hmm...more confusion. Shame that "they" couldn't stick with an easy-to-follow stem color standard like Cherry does. Either way, I like the switch. I'm curious how the new Matias clicky switch compares. If it's the same as the quiet switch, but with a click leaf, it'll probably be pretty good.
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Real Greens are linear, FYI. The greens in the Ducky are XM's. :)
Hmm...more confusion. Shame that "they" couldn't stick with an easy-to-follow stem color standard like Cherry does. Either way, I like the switch. I'm curious how the new Matias clicky switch compares. If it's the same as the quiet switch, but with a click leaf, it'll probably be pretty good.
That is probably why cherry is doing better.
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I'm curious how the new Matias clicky switch compares. If it's the same as the quiet switch, but with a click leaf, it'll probably be pretty good.
I think Matias said they both have the click leaf, but the quiet switch has the leaf firmly attached to the assembly while the clicky switch is loose enough to move/rebound. The other difference is the rubber dampers (or their absence) on the plunger.
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Real Greens are linear, FYI. The greens in the Ducky are XM's. :)
Hmm...more confusion. Shame that "they" couldn't stick with an easy-to-follow stem color standard like Cherry does. Either way, I like the switch. I'm curious how the new Matias clicky switch compares. If it's the same as the quiet switch, but with a click leaf, it'll probably be pretty good.
That is probably why cherry is doing better.
I think he means by They that the 4 or so companies that did ALPS-type switches didn't use any sort of standard. Cherry is actually just as bad, but their "nonstandard" keyboards and keyswitches are much rarer than the common aberrations in the ALPS world.
One thing to add: While your best bet is almost certainly to harvest keycaps from an old Apple keyboard, signature plastics (keycapsdirect, above) has the capacity to make ALPS fullsets, though there has never been enough interest to get a GB done.
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Real Greens are linear, FYI. The greens in the Ducky are XM's. :)
Hmm...more confusion. Shame that "they" couldn't stick with an easy-to-follow stem color standard like Cherry does. Either way, I like the switch. I'm curious how the new Matias clicky switch compares. If it's the same as the quiet switch, but with a click leaf, it'll probably be pretty good.
That is probably why cherry is doing better.
I think he means by They that the 4 or so companies that did ALPS-type switches didn't use any sort of standard. Cherry is actually just as bad, but their "nonstandard" keyboards and keyswitches are much rarer than the common aberrations in the ALPS world.
One thing to add: While your best bet is almost certainly to harvest keycaps from an old Apple keyboard, signature plastics (keycapsdirect, above) has the capacity to make ALPS fullsets, though there has never been enough interest to get a GB done.
ALPS MOVEMENT 2013!!!!
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One thing to add: While your best bet is almost certainly to harvest keycaps from an old Apple keyboard, signature plastics (keycapsdirect, above) has the capacity to make ALPS fullsets, though there has never been enough interest to get a GB done.
The problem starts here with a group buy order on keycap sets. I don't think an agreement amount ALPs users could be made for a full keyset from SP, the oddity of the boards we are still using would prevent the MOQ from being reached. I would be curious as what people would want Keyboard models people would want to use as the target boards for a keyset replacement, I could think of a few but right away Enter keys start getting in the way. If we had access a manufacturer producing consistent modern ALPs keyboards still that people actually wanted to use this would be much easier.
I guess we can all dream though.
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Alps? Standards? HA.
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Real Greens are linear, FYI. The greens in the Ducky are XM's. :)
The XM KSB-LE is green and linear that's the LED model (possibly also the KSB-LK, although the Xiang Min website (http://xiangmin.myweb.hinet.net/keyboard.htm) has very little details on their switches I've asked them if they have a table of models and basic characteristics). Ducky order customised 55 cN switches; normal Xiang Min KSB switches are all 60±15 cN.
The tolerance is one factor that bothered Edgar Matias, hence Matias switches having only ±5 cN tolerance for a more consistent feel. Another factor is the metal, shape and thickness of the tactile or click leaf, something Alps Electric paid a lot of attention to, but the clone makers did not.
The most common complaint with "XM" switches (a blanket term given to T1 to T9 "Mantis" switches (http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/8366)) is that they're "balky", that is, they're too highly loaded. The peak force is very high (much more so than the 60 cN rating suggests) and it takes a lot of effort to depress the switch, leading to fatigue and missed keystrokes. Cherry MX clears are also very stiff, but they stiffen at the bottom of the stroke, which you learn to avoid by not bottoming out hard. I couldn't say how the 55 cN custom version compares, and some people like XMs.
I've also asked Xiang Min to clarify this, but according to their website, the factory that originally made their switches opened in 1997, and the original company was founded in 1994. No XM switches can exist before 1997 when the company took the name Xiamen, from the Xiamen factory; they weren't called Xiang Min until 2001.
Any "XM" switches made before 1994 are NOT Xiang Min XM switches. They either copied or bought up an existing design. "XM" just means "the lower shell has four small tabs instead of two long tabs" to most people, as some other clones (e.g. Strong Man) retained the long side tabs. However, the four tabs design goes back before then and is by far the most common lower shell design for clones. The only to be sure with any switch, as you know, is to open it up and examine the internals. For example, I have an old NTC AT/XT switchable board with four-tabs switches that are not XM. No idea what they are. They got called Type IV, but nobody knows who made them. I opened up a switch and found that it doesn't have the characteristic narrow copper "Mantis" click leaf common to most clones, rather, it's a full size classic click leaf like Alps CM and Strong Man.
There's another switch family, the APC BSW family (http://deskthority.net/wiki/APC_switch), that appears to be both current and unrelated to Xiang Min, as Xiang Min switches all have "KSB" part numbers, not "BSW". APC switches appear to very closely resemble Simplified Alps Type III, tentatively suggested to be Strong Man switches (Strong Man went out of business a few years ago, not long after Chloe was enquiring about getting samples from them). Compare Sandy's Type III photos (http://web.archive.org/web/20090429073937/http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/alps_sw2.html#simplified%20III) to the kbtalking page (search for "APC") although modern APC switches are blue like the Type III.
There are a *LOT* of Z mount switches out there. Fuhua ("Fukka") switches (discontinued as of early this year), Xiang Min KSB and a number of others are all pin-compatible with Alps CM, i.e. you can harvest switches from a vintage blue Alps CM board and put them into a Dell AT10* (Alps CM complicated), Ducky 108* (custom XM), Filco Zero (Fukka/XM), Matias Tactile Pro (Alps CM simplified/Strong Man/Fukka/Matias Alps), Matias Quiet Pro (Matias Alps), some SIIG MiniTouch boards (the XM ones), or any other desirable board.
There are also Z mount switches that are not Alps pin compatible, e.g. Monterey, "Aruz"/"Hash". These will provide a supply of vintage keycaps, but you can't swap the switches out.
Basically only the insane continue to care about Z mount switches as it's a nightmare to figure out who made what and when. It wasn't until I asked Edgar Matias the other week, that anyone even appeared to know what "XM" meant, only that it was a name bandied about with no meaning behind it. XM is Xiang Min Co. Ltd., Chinese: 祥敏企業有限公司 Xiang Min Enterprise Co. Ltd. It might be years before we figure out APC, and I can't ask Strong Man anything as they no longer exist. Fuhua (Foward Electronics) we know bought out Alps Taiwan, which is why their switches are basically Alps Electric's own simplified design. I don't know whether their characteristic ping, due to an overly thin click leaf, was a mistake made by Alps themselves, or a cost-cutting measure at Fuhua afterwards. You'd have to play with an original, pre-Fuhua Tactile Pro and compare: the very first ones used the last million Alps Electric-made Alps switches ever produced.
[TL;DR Give up and go home. Alps are not for you. Trust me.
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[TL;DR Give up and go home. Alps are not for you. Trust me.
Wow, great read. I think you are saying that perhaps Alps isn't for anyone that fails to display a spergy disorder or some sort?
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Thanks, Daniel, more stuff that I did not know. I'm sure that some of it was lost in the wikis .....
To me, Alps are the most frustrating of switches. Good ones are exquisite, and bad ones are, well, bad.
There does not seem to be any guarantee that New in Box will be good, or that old dirty ones will not.
That actual Alps branded board (white) that I bought on ebay a couple of weeks ago is really a nice board, but I can't get past how stiff the whites are. I don't remember the Focus 2001s I owned being like that, but perhaps I mis-remember.
I am about ready to put it up for sale, but can't decide that it is not worth keeping. If I could ever find at least 40 good blue switches, and several hours of time, it could be transformed into something great.
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Wow, great read. I think you are saying that perhaps Alps isn't for anyone that fails to display a spergy disorder or some sort?
I shall take that as a compliment
Alps just requires a lot of study owing to the sheer number of clone switches from other manufacturers over the years.
I'm sure that some of it was lost in the wikis .....
Some (you can read the Alps wiki on the Wayback Machine). I'm updating the DT Wiki (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_CM) with everything I've found out, but there is a lot still unanswered.
Joy at Xiang Min is impressed with my interest in Alps switches, but I think the EnglishChinese language barrier is too much to permit detailed discussion as she's suggesting that she doesn't really understand me (hard to tell honestly what she meant). It's a pity. Their e-mail address is on their site if any Chinese speakers wanted to enquire directly.
I don't remember the Focus 2001s I owned being like that, but perhaps I mis-remember.
The Focus FK2001 used several different switches including complicated blue Alps CM, "Type III" (Strong Man?), apparently Omrons (not proven, because the YouTube video making the claim shows normal switches not Omrons), and possibly also white complicated Alps CM I'd have to read up on it again. The DT wiki has no Focus FK2001 info at the moment and the rest is scattered across the Web. The version without Windows keys had the good switches, as it was older.
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:rolleyes: My matias quiet pro feel as resistant as blacks at their most difficult point, but I love to type on those switches. Hardly any mistakes. I guess Matias alps were for me :-/
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Alps are the weirdest switch ever invented. I'll echo what's already been said...there is no way to know the quality of the switch until you actually have it in your hands. A BNIB alps board can suck while a dirty beat up one can feel amazing & vice versa. Plus, the resistance of alps switches seems to vary a little too. I've had two dampened cream boards before and both felt significantly different (one required a much heavier actuation force than the other). Don't get into alps unless you can deal with buying and selling multiple boards of the same make/model just to find one that's in a condition you approve of. Alps=frustration & repetition.
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And you're referring to pairs of boards where you've confirmed that it's the exact same switch? (i.e. not keyboards like the Filco Zero and Focus FK2001 which used multiple similar switches over their production lifetime).
Maybe just differences in manufacturing tolerance including materials supply. Xiang Min for example only provide ±15 cN tolerance, while Matias switches are ±5 cN. Alps to the best of our knowledge never published specifications of their switches, unlike Xiang Min and Fuhua, so the tolerance is not known. Another mystery maybe one day someone will be able to hand one of us a copy of the actual Alps CM specifications.
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Alps are the weirdest switch ever invented. I'll echo what's already been said...there is no way to know the quality of the switch until you actually have it in your hands. A BNIB alps board can suck while a dirty beat up one can feel amazing & vice versa. Plus, the resistance of alps switches seems to vary a little too. I've had two dampened cream boards before and both felt significantly different (one required a much heavier actuation force than the other). Don't get into alps unless you can deal with buying and selling multiple boards of the same make/model just to find one that's in a condition you approve of. Alps=frustration & repetition.
Yes, its amazing how bad that Monterrey MiniTouch you sold me feels. :) (I had already read your posts complaining about it before I bought it.)
I did luck out on my AT101W. It had no shininess on the keys and it feels good overall. What is interesting is that it feels much better in high humidity than when its dry. I think that indicates the switches would respond well to lubrication... something I'd like to try. The Japanese enthusiasts are probably right about Alps & lube.
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Alps in whatever form you may find them are a very strange beast indeed. Now don't get me wrong i LOVE alps i mean id use alps over anything ((currently typing on a buckling spring)) but when it comes to them id say there is a huge difference between each kind of alps switch.
I had / have a leading edge dc 2014 which is a set of blue alps that i truly adore over any other switch ive tried actually. Sadly i ran this board into the ground and even after extensive repair and recovery there's just only so much you can do to attempt to reclaim its original glory.
So i decided i wanted to give another pair of blue alps a try since the leading edge was my first mechanical i was still naive and thought alps where alps. I decided to be a cheap ass and saw a F21-7D Blue Alps on amazon for under 50 dollars and decided to give it a try. I hated these generic want to be alps rip offs so i decided maybe id try a different route and tried out my friends ducky for 1 week. Still not the same as the greatness of actual well built alps. It would seem as if they just couldn't compare they felt flimsy, less tactile, wobbly, etc on both the f21 and ducky just nowhere near as the amazing feeling the originals gave my fingers. So i went the route of getting buckling springs which I'm currently using for most of my daily activities ((work, sc2, forums, email, etc)) Which are working out just fine.
So i only use the leading edge dc 2014 on special occasion when i really want to feel an amazing switch. If i could find a unused one for under 100 dollars id jump all over it in a heart beat.
Moral of the story is, When it comes to alps its almost all personal preference but after you try real alps, the clones like ducky's and all the other ones just don't compare. Id say splurge and get yourself a nice alps board over any kind of clone.
In the near future I'm considering getting a Matias Tactile Pro to see how i like those alps but im not sure if anything will ever compare to the original feeling of my leading edge.
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@Burz this was definitely a Monterey (blue slider) and not an XM (white slider) MiniTouch? Montereys are poorly made but highly rated for feel, comparible with blue Cherry.
@Carnage did you actually kill the switches? I presume you don't have any that can be soldered onto a donor board, or at least, enough for a full keyboard.
I've just connected my blue Alps board back up to my PC. The feel is taxing on my fingers (most likely the hard landing of the switches, as they're very light compared with the clears that I'm presently accustomed to), but the sound is perfect. I don't think that any switch will ever replicate the sharp, precise and exceptionally deep sound of blue Alps switches. No idea what it is that gives them that perfect sound. No ping, no plastic, no tinniness, no rattle, no scrape, just precision aural engineering.
I will be really interested to compare the new Matias Click Switch and see how that sizes up against blue Alps for sound. Really surprised how light Alps feels after clears.
Just need to re-reassemble the keyboard now as I had it apart and haven't put it back together again properly. (Having trouble typing on it keep losing letters. Maybe it's the stupid Belkin, but maybe the switches are flaking. Numpad 3 is definitely on the blink. The board needs a good clean.)
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@Daniel Beardsmore
I cant say i actually killed the switches completely but. i have done a lot of work on them trying to get them to feel the same way they use to but after heavy amount of use they have taken a beating. But its not all the switches that i killed just some of the more used keys switches that well they don't like to do much of anything anymore sadly. So i switched those switches out with the f1 keys and it works but you can tell those keys when pressed have taken a lot less abuse / use then the rest so it makes it feel slightly inconsistent which was annoying so i just put everything back the original way. Did as much recovery work as i could and they work, but some are worse off then other and then there's the keys which you can feel slowly degrading at different rates which just gives the boards overall feel less then its ideal form of perfection that it once was.
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Hopefully the Matias Click Switch will be as good as the original Alps CM switches (arguably the Fukka felt better, but it sounded terrible). I guess there must be people with broken blue Alps keyboards available for spares, somewhere .....
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:)) I just want to throw my quiet pro at people! TRY IT! :p
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It doesn't hit Europe until January (i.e. at least mid February). Waiting ................................. :(
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Oh, sorry, I meant Matias Click Switch. Post edited. There's no Tactile Pro for PC at the moment, so more waiting on top of waiting for my Quiet Pro to arrive.
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Yeah I read you wrote tactile instead of quiet switch, and it made sense. I have a friend who uses the tactile pro exclusively, and he loves the old tactile switches. Even then Matias was VERY passionate about the feeling being correct. Without that feeling it would not be a Matias. If you have not tried one you should. It is worth the money.
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I have a Tactile Pro 3. Matias are passionate, but that still means nothing if nobody makes adequate switches. That's why they're making their own now.
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Jeez that sounds like a expensive piece of hardware to be throwing at people! But i would only hope i still haven't decided what i feel like hunting down next but since the matias tactile are sold new and unused maybe that shall have to be next. Id hate to have to be the one who brings another amazing unused pair of alps down to there base. I miss my Leading edge 2014. But i doubt i should get a used one when a matias tactile is like the same price and probably has more customization options... I wonder how they compare in just feel, longevity, and customization I'm currently using a black buckling springs boards with all the keys checkered black and white so if i got a new alps board like the matias tactile which does not seem to unique compared to my old school leading edge or my customized buckling springs is there double shots widely available for it? A TKL LED Light with unprinited double shots on the matias tactile pro ohh my ohh my!
Sadly they don't make the matias tactile pro for PC do they? If I'm correct even the MTP3 is made for mac and it can only be used on PCs with the drivers? i wonder how that effects its KRO response rate etc...
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From my personal experience, Fuhua (Fukka) switches are distinctly less tactile, so they're less jarring and easier to depress. However, the spring force is higher than blue Alps. They're like the high and low of blue Alps averaged out to a straighter force curve. Blue Alps has a light spring, but a very strong tactile point; Fukkas have a weak tactile point and a strong spring, a littl bit like clears compared to blues.
It's not the feel that bothers me, but dreadfully cheap child's toy rattle sound that comes off the Tactile Pro 3. It just sounds like a heap of flimsy plastic. Even rubbish clones at least sound stately even if they don't have the deep, warm sound of blue switches. I really have no idea where to apportion the blame between the keyboard and the switches for the awful sound; the keyboard doesn't offer audible feedback, it just makes a lot of senseless noise. The excessive ping has been attributed by Matias to the click leaf being too thin, rectified in their new switches. The keycaps are roughly the same thickness as those on Filco keyboards, so they shouldn't make a difference.
The only way to be sure is to get clear recordings comparing the old and new switches in the Tactile Pro in the same environment; the recordings Matias made for the Quiet Pro compared it mistakenly with an older Tactile Pro with Fukka switches, so that doesn't offer a clue.
I really hope they get it right. With two years' work gone into it, the odds are very good.
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Tactile Pro for PC is under consideration (mentioned in another thread).
Tactile Pro for Mac works on a PC, but Apple historically placed Alt on the Option key, causing USB keyboards to reverse the positions of Win and Alt. This is all the "driver" fixes it just swaps Win and Alt back around to where they should be. It's not a driver; it's a compiled AutoHotkey script that only influences programs that read keys the normal way, so it doesn't function over any remote access software for example, anything that reads the keyboard at a lower level.
Most of the use my TP3 has got, has been in Windows. I gave up on the "driver" as it caused alt-tab to jam open. It's an AutoHotkey issue that doesn't occur in Windows 7.
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Hmmm i might stray away from the matias then and find me another old CM blue complicated with double shots and fix her up. Hopefully into a good condition where she can last for a while i mean. The reason i finally caved into buckling springs instead of alps was for there longevity. I didn't want to risk destroying another expensive keyboard so fast. I am now use to the buckling springs but its just not the same as the alps which is why that board gets taken out from time to time even though its a pain sometimes to feel the keys slowly deteriorating under me ohh the weakness ive brought upon those alps they feel like relics of the past at this point, so does it original feeling.
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Membrane BS really isn't very tactile at all. Smooth, but not especially tactile. (Apparently capacitive BS was far more tactile, but I've never tried that.) If smooth is your thing, then there's Topre if you don't need the clicks. There's nothing on sale now that's comparable to Topre and clicky. Topre really is excellent.
I do wonder what you're doing to Alps switches to be able to watch them die, though. You must be like that other dude here who wore holes right through keycaps in short order. Sandpaper for skin, or jackhammers for fingers :-)
Wait to see what people at GH and DT make of the new Matias switches. Maybe all the sound issues are just the Fukka switch being complete rubbish; the Tactile Pro 3 is very solid, after all. Mr Interface has a review coming up for the Quiet Pro, once he's had enough time to assess it thoroughly.
Of course, I'm also eagerly hoping that Ergo Clears become official :-)
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Yeah ive checked out torpes but for that price and none of the clicks! That dosent seem like very much fun at all unless i was intentionally trying to be quiet which i am not i quiet enjoy the loud thumping of the older boards while i play games or just writing on forums. I would say i probably have moderately heavy hands when playing games but when just typing casually usually not. I think the main issue is alot of the games i play are very repetitive and have a lot of spam orientated into them. I'm sure slamming down on the U key during a panicky stage of a game to build my defense over and over and over probably isn't helping them much it was actually the U that first started giving out on the board followed by the other keys where i can just feel that they have taken a beating to the point beyond repair and the original love of the board is lost in the sea of clicks and clacks.
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ALPS MOVEMENT 2013!!!!
Hell. Yes.
After reading all this, I can see why Matias put the R&D into making his own switches. The only other ALPS board I've used is an AEKII, so I don't have the experience you guys have. But I love the sound & feel of my MQP.
Tactile Pro for Mac works on a PC, but Apple historically placed Alt on the Option key, causing USB keyboards to reverse the positions of Win and Alt. This is all the "driver" fixes it just swaps Win and Alt back around to where they should be. It's not a driver; it's a compiled AutoHotkey script that only influences programs that read keys the normal way, so it doesn't function over any remote access software for example, anything that reads the keyboard at a lower level.
Most of the use my TP3 has got, has been in Windows. I gave up on the "driver" as it caused alt-tab to jam open. It's an AutoHotkey issue that doesn't occur in Windows 7.
While I was using my AEKII on work PCs, I just put up with them being flipped around. Windows doesn't have ANY built-in way to swap those keys around? It's trivially simple in Mac OS X.
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There's nothing on sale now that's comparable to Topre and clicky.
Daniel, will you re-evaluate that statement after using the MQP for a week? :D
Of course, I'm also eagerly hoping that Ergo Clears become official :-)
I'm skeptical about anything that uses the brown type of switch mechanism after trying the browns. Have you tried MX white? They sound more promising.
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Alps are the weirdest switch ever invented. I'll echo what's already been said...there is no way to know the quality of the switch until you actually have it in your hands. A BNIB alps board can suck while a dirty beat up one can feel amazing & vice versa. Plus, the resistance of alps switches seems to vary a little too. I've had two dampened cream boards before and both felt significantly different (one required a much heavier actuation force than the other). Don't get into alps unless you can deal with buying and selling multiple boards of the same make/model just to find one that's in a condition you approve of. Alps=frustration & repetition.
Yes, its amazing how bad that Monterrey MiniTouch you sold me feels. :) (I had already read your posts complaining about it before I bought it.)
I did luck out on my AT101W. It had no shininess on the keys and it feels good overall. What is interesting is that it feels much better in high humidity than when its dry. I think that indicates the switches would respond well to lubrication... something I'd like to try. The Japanese enthusiasts are probably right about Alps & lube.
I recently bought a SIIG minitouch with the white XMs. When I first got it, several of the keys were sticky, a couple of them even staying down for probably a half second or so. Even though the overall feeling was quite decent, even the ones that didn't stick felt rough.
I love the form factor though, so I wanted to see if there was a way to salvage it. I pondered waiting until the MQP switches are available for sale (which I'm still pondering actually), but in the meantime, I did try lube.
I got some "Contact Cleaner/Lubricant" from radio shack (ugh), and I was quite honestly amazed at the results. I got it after reading about the DeoxIT that everyone talks about, and found the RS brand to be similar. I tried it on a couple switches at first to test and it made a world of difference. They're smooth but tactile, with a more refined click and a warmer sound. So now my favourite board is a dead tie between the dampened creams SGI AT101 and the SIIG. (Oh, and if you go this route, be sparing with the lube- just a touch will do.)
Mysterious, terrifying Alps FTW.
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I love the form factor though, so I wanted to see if there was a way to salvage it. I pondered waiting until the MQP switches are available for sale (which I'm still pondering actually), but in the meantime, I did try lube.
The wider keys on the MiniTouch also tend to bind. Does the lube help any with that?
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Daniel, will you re-evaluate that statement after using the MQP for a week? :D
What do you mean? The Matias Quiet Pro is not clicky. I will be happy to re-evaluate the situation once the Matias Tactile Pro for PC becomes available.
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Daniel, will you re-evaluate that statement after using the MQP for a week? :D
What do you mean? The Matias Quiet Pro is not clicky. I will be happy to re-evaluate the situation once the Matias Tactile Pro for PC becomes available.
I misread you. I thought you meant tactile and non-clicky. It would still be interesting to have the MQP and Topre compared.
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I love the form factor though, so I wanted to see if there was a way to salvage it. I pondered waiting until the MQP switches are available for sale (which I'm still pondering actually), but in the meantime, I did try lube.
The wider keys on the MiniTouch also tend to bind. Does the lube help any with that?
It actually did, to a certain extent. The shifts and backspace saw the best improvement of course, and the enter still doesn't like being hit too close to the left edge. But overall, I'd say they're much less temperamental about it.
EDIT: sorry, I forgot to mention- on the keys with stabilizers, I also used some of their "electronics lube" that comes in a small precision dropper tube. I put just a dab on the stabilizer hinge points, and that helped as well. I tried to find links on their site to both of the things I used, but neither is listed anywhere. So that's cool. I'll snap some pics when I get home from work if anyone's interested. (Though if you go to one of their locations, it's not hard to figure out. :-P )
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Just wondering this on a side note how do green alps compare to blues? and has anyone had a pleasure of trying these pink or yellow alps these two seem to elude me and i do not know much information about them. I do like blues don't get me wrong but something a little more tactile would be nice especially since from what i know about the pinks is they have a relativity short spring which seems interesting.
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Which greens? Green Alps CM (vintage) switches are linear, possibly with a ~5 cN bump. Xiang Min don't seem to pay much attention to colour the KSB-LE switches in the Tactile Pro 3 are linear, but the green XM switches in Ducky keyboards are customised 55 cN clicky switches.
Not the same as Cherry where greens are just stiffer blues.
If you want something more tactile than blues
wow. Blue Alps is one of the most tactile switches in existence, at least unless you use them for gaming and destroy them :) You could try clone switches, although they're not so much more tactile as stiffer, although XM white switches are ridiculously tactile. A Filco Zero TKL with XMs for example.
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So ducky greens are just stiffer blues? I did try some clone switches a f21-7d which uses APC BSW 055WH switch ((blue clones)) which i completely wrecked in a period of under 6 months or so id want to say. Complete rubbish especially with the annoying little orange key caps i had to change out. Speaking of which though i was looking for a Filco zero TKL earlier after reading about them on deskthority and i just didn't seem to be able to hunt one down. A TKL sounds nice as it would be easier to carry around.
Im guessing id just destroy a set of ducky greens. Even though the nice fancy LED ducky shine 2's with the custom clear caps would look very nice to me I'm pretty sure it would just be my want to be kmac. Ohh the things id do for my very own custom made kmac.
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So ducky greens are just stiffer blues?
Ducky keyboards use KSB family (http://xiangmin.myweb.hinet.net/keyboard.htm) clone switches from Xiang Min (Taiwan), customised from the default 60±15 cN down to 55±15 cN for reduced force. (I don't have the exact model used the language barrier is too great for me to be able to communicate effectively with Xiang Min.)
I have personally never tried a Ducky Alps keyboard, so I have no idea how they compare to vintage blue Alps CM (from Alps Electric Co, Japan) switches. I do know that blue Alps switches are very tactile, so if you can't feel that, you really have destroyed them. Blue Alps CM has a sharp tactile point over a relatively light spring (similar spring to brown Cherry); clone switches typically have stronger springs.
I've heard that white Alps CM (the successor to blues still vintage switches from Alps Electric) are stiffer so you might prefer those. I don't know the date when Alps Electric introduced their own simplified switches, which (for clicky) were also white the same as the previous complicated switches. Clone switches were simplified from the outset only Alps Electric ever made complicated switches.
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I got myself a ducky with black alps and i must say, its meh. Well, they are not that bad really but not great either. But they do remind me about keyboards from the early 90s.
My personal runner is still the red cherry switch. Don't know Alps that much and perhaps others are better.
For the price its ok and even typing is ok on it. But i am not a professional typist and just type something like this here or an email. So for that purpose its ok.
Green would be not my choice either since i despise clicks like in the blue from cherry.