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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: sth on Tue, 30 October 2012, 17:31:15

Title: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Tue, 30 October 2012, 17:31:15
i am dialing down on my keyboard aquiring but when i see cool member-run projects and new, novel layouts, i just can't help myself  :D
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/9/9b/HyperMicro.png)
7bit has made some new layout designs and he's running an IC on deskthority for them.

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/hypermicro-and-hypermini-keyboard-t4185.html

he also has some nicely-thought-out poker-sized PCBs - some with arrow keys, some without. there is a HHKB clone and an iso 60% layout (!) as well.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 30 October 2012, 17:33:59
If it's the same size as the poker, what's the point?
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Tue, 30 October 2012, 17:36:08
the hyper micro is smaller than the poker

the other layouts have more/different keys and they are teensy based so you can make your own fn layer. i am not personally very interested in those layouts but i think they are pretty neat and they serve a niche for those unhappy with the poker/pure layouts and lack of mod-ability.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 30 October 2012, 17:47:31
This is the birth of the 40% layout?
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 30 October 2012, 17:50:47
Besides the weirdo ones that maybe a few people might make use of, if just want better 60%, there is already the GH60 for that... would be better to have more buyer for one project than 2 projects that are almost the same thing.
Hypermicro might be amusing if can use a 4unit space <C_N> instead of that layout as shown. Makes me want to make a totally custom toy arm based pc in the style of a C64 but super tiny.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: tjcaustin on Tue, 30 October 2012, 17:53:29
I'd buy a micro if I had a solid case idea available.

Even still, going old school metal plate/riser to prevent grounding/pcb/plate might be enough to get me on board.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Tue, 30 October 2012, 17:54:33
Besides the weirdo ones that maybe a few people might make use of, if just want better 60%, there is already the GH60 for that... would be better to have more buyer for one project than 2 projects that are almost the same thing.
yeah i mostly agree with that. nice to see an iso native layout in this size though.

i would love to see a mini64. maybe a raspi or old android phone (i would love to get some use out of of my first-gen Droid!).
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Tue, 30 October 2012, 17:55:21
I'd buy a micro if I had a solid case idea available.

Even still, going old school metal plate/riser to prevent grounding/pcb/plate might be enough to get me on board.
don't worry about it ;)

but seriously coming up with your own case / mounting plate would be cake. just use motherboard standoffs on a block of wood until you come up with something cleaner :)
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: tjcaustin on Tue, 30 October 2012, 18:03:59
Hah, new idea for The_Beast if there's actual interest...

Or use the same guy he's (The_beast again) getting poker/60% plates done through to cut metal plates for it...
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Tue, 30 October 2012, 18:07:15
It's got a "BS" key...press repeatedly to auto-generate undergrad humanities papers? :p
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Tue, 30 October 2012, 18:16:09
It's got a "BS" key...press repeatedly to auto-generate undergrad humanities papers? :p
the BS key is actually the only key on 7bit's personal layout.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 30 October 2012, 18:33:58
Hah, new idea for The_Beast if there's actual interest...

Or use the same guy he's (The_beast again) getting poker/60% plates done through to cut metal plates for it...

WAT?!?!???!?!
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Tue, 30 October 2012, 23:20:53
Trying to suggest something more like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/kbSRR.png)

Same size, but makes use of the wasted rectangular space on the bottom. Alternatively, the two shifts could become 2.5x keys instead of adding 1x keys to their sides. The key labels are just an example, since it's reprogrammable you could change it to suit your needs. The important thing that I'm trying to change is to give this layout the three things that it's really missing in order to be usable for "basic typing", which are the comma, question mark and exclamation mark. The hyphen is arguably common as well. Everything else could be put on a function layer without impacting basic use too much.

This modified layout also has the neat 1.5 - 1 - 1.5 on the bottom that people tend to like. The 1x circle key in the middle could probably be removed entirely to have two 2x keys instead of two 1.5x keys.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Tue, 30 October 2012, 23:22:18
i like some of these ideas. keep in mind it's gonna be teensy based so you can do whatever you want to the layout. that circle key is dumb :P
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: tjcaustin on Tue, 30 October 2012, 23:28:37
Hah, new idea for The_Beast if there's actual interest...

Or use the same guy he's (The_beast again) getting poker/60% plates done through to cut metal plates for it...

WAT?!?!???!?!

You making wood plates for the micro
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Tue, 30 October 2012, 23:42:40
Actually, here's another little arrangement that will likely prove more popular with most people:

(http://i.imgur.com/y94bB.png)

It has the 1.5 - 1 - 1.5 that people are comfortable with, removes the circle button which most people probably don't care too much for, doesn't require any stabilizers and has all the basic things needed for common text.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Tue, 30 October 2012, 23:44:24
you can see my reply on the DT thread ;) i'll leave discussion of the layout itself to deskthority and 7bit's discretion.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: wetto on Tue, 30 October 2012, 23:48:10
Actually, here's another little arrangement that will likely prove more popular with most people:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/y94bB.png)


It has the 1.5 - 1 - 1.5 that people are comfortable with, removes the circle button which most people probably don't care too much for, doesn't require any stabilizers and has all the basic things needed for common text.

At least that way you can type in languages other than English... Characters such as ' " ~ ` are quite needed for many European languages...
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Tue, 30 October 2012, 23:57:12
While I understand, it's not really possible to accommodate all European characters on the first layer in such a small space. However, since most are just modifications to standard letters (i.e. accents), it would probably be reasonable to get the characters either using the right Alt as Alt Gr, using the OS's way of handling European characters. For example, on some layouts you can press something like /e to get é, and :(letter) to get umlauts, etc. Additional required letters could also be placed on the function layer. Also, the whole thing is customizable! So you could easily also remove the right hand versions of shift, alt, and control and replace them with what you need.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: wetto on Wed, 31 October 2012, 00:02:09
While I understand, it's not really possible to accommodate all European characters on the first layer in such a small space. However, since most are just modifications to standard letters (i.e. accents), it would probably be reasonable to get the characters either using the right Alt as Alt Gr, using the OS's way of handling European characters. For example, on some layouts you can press something like /e to get é, and :(letter) to get umlauts, etc. Additional required letters could also be placed on the function layer. Also, the whole thing is customizable! So you could easily also remove the right hand versions of shift, alt, and control and replace them with what you need.

That's what I'm talking about, even though I use an ANSI keyboard, believe it or not, these things can actually accommodate all European characters into a single keyboard layout.

Example:

' + e = é
" + e = ë
CTRL + ALT + W = Å
~ + a = ã
' + c = ç

And when you're making a keyboard layout, you should at least plan to make it possible to do that.

Ex: Removing keys such as ' and " from the keyboard keys would be the worst thing to do, if you plan to make it possible to write in European Languages.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 31 October 2012, 00:05:26
Well, like I said, you could just change one of the keys. Remove right shift and replace it with `~ and you'd have everything you listed. It's also a bit difficult for me to plan to make it possible to use all European characters without knowing them all. I'm from Quebec so I actually use most accents myself when typing in French. I don't have the ~ though, and we're still missing the German ß off the top of my head unless they have a simple way to do that. French is actually missing << >> which is used instead of quotation marks.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: wetto on Wed, 31 October 2012, 00:11:58
Well, like I said, you could just change one of the keys. Remove right shift and replace it with `~ and you'd have everything you listed. It's also a bit difficult for me to plan to make it possible to use all European characters without knowing them all. I'm from Quebec so I actually use most accents myself when typing in French. I don't have the ~ though, and we're still missing the German ß off the top of my head unless they have a simple way to do that. French is actually missing << >> which is used instead of quotation marks.

Following the ANSI example, at least ß is easy, but now the « » would be quite complicated...

Control + Alt + S = ß
Control + Alt + [ = «
Control + Alt + ] = »

An ALT GR would help a damn lot...
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Wed, 31 October 2012, 00:13:32
you are missing the point! this is a fully open board! you can do whatever you want to the layout -- ignore the mappings and focus on the physical space allocated for keys. hell you could probably write a chorded layout for this.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 31 October 2012, 00:17:15
Here's another idea without using the duplicated bottom right row. This arrangement allows for arrows on the first layer (and I added the `~ keys for European characters).

(http://i.imgur.com/dx0s3.png)

Oh... you know what I just realized. Removing a column from the middle is not too much of a problem for Qwerty people, but in colemak, that ; that disappeared was something important for me. The middle row now only has 9 letters instead of 10 that I actually need... I guess that counts me out on this idea.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 31 October 2012, 01:08:03
Alright, last idea. I added one column, so it's now 4x13, which makes it usable for Colemak and Dvorak people while still providing usefulness for Qwerty people and keeping it smaller than usual. Again, don't focus on where exactly everything is since the idea is that this is reprogrammable, just focus on the size of the keys and the physical layout to see what kind of options it provides.

(http://i.imgur.com/CZLlK.png)

Notes:
Punctuation is grouped together. For European people `~ is available, for myself I'd replace it with hyphen probably.
1.5x - 1x - 1.5x mods on the bottom left which people enjoy and which lets them use part of their RGBY kits.
Arrows available in the top layer, similar to the Race or Deck keyboards.
All characters needed for "basic writing" with the exception of maybe hyphen and parentheses.
' " is pretty close to where it normally is.
Comma and period in their normal places, ? pretty close to normal.
Left shift that reaches to the edge of the board, which is better for gamers.
That circle is back in the middle... Not sure what to do about it. If I removed it then the space and backspace would become too large and need stabilizers. I'm sure 7bit is happier to see it there though for whatever he uses it for! Could be used for another layer or as an Alt Gr for European characters.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: Sinzz on Wed, 31 October 2012, 01:20:46
man, I'm LOVING they layout of the c600! been looking for a keyboard with that layout for the longest time, still have my arrow keys but the size of a poker.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 31 October 2012, 01:34:39
A lot of these looks good. What does the circle button do?
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 31 October 2012, 01:40:42
I imagine 7bit intends it to be another modifier key, but since this keyboard would be programmable, you could do anything you want with it.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 31 October 2012, 09:20:50
Ic. Like an open key or undecided.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: Larken on Wed, 31 October 2012, 10:17:06
Not that I'm likely to get one, but this is a pretty sweet idea to be used in conjunction with one of those small sized tablets thats' coming out nowadays. The mechanical keyboard cure for a microsoft surface *drool*. For the other tablets without USB connections, bluetooth and batteries are just another complication.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: shibbyllama889 on Wed, 31 October 2012, 11:14:53
Why is the backspace on the right and the space on the left? Most split space bars (or entirely different keys in this case) have those keys switched. I'd say more people hit space with their right thumb than their left. Obviously this could change with everything being programmable, but I'm curious as to why it was like that in the first place!

Either way, these are interesting layouts. I am always hesitant to dramatically switch layouts just for sanity when using standard boards. I love the idea of a layout smaller than 60% though.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 31 October 2012, 11:17:25
We so need to get s Bluetooth gb going! I would be the coolest thing on the block!

Why is the backspace on the right and the space on the left? Most split space bars (or entirely different keys in this case) have those keys switched. I'd say more people hit space with their right thumb than their left. Obviously this could change with everything being programmable, but I'm curious as to why it was like that in the first place!

Either way, these are interesting layouts. I am always hesitant to dramatically switch layouts just for sanity when using standard boards. I love the idea of a layout smaller than 60% though.

I push the spacebar with my left thumb. That Is why.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Wed, 31 October 2012, 13:19:39
Why is the backspace on the right and the space on the left? Most split space bars (or entirely different keys in this case) have those keys switched. I'd say more people hit space with their right thumb than their left. Obviously this could change with everything being programmable, but I'm curious as to why it was like that in the first place!

Either way, these are interesting layouts. I am always hesitant to dramatically switch layouts just for sanity when using standard boards. I love the idea of a layout smaller than 60% though.
did you not read this thread? the mapping does not matter. its a fully programmable board and you can make the keys do whatever you want. make it all backspaces.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 31 October 2012, 21:17:28
Gamers have a high tendency to hit the spacebar with their left thumb because their right hand is always on the mouse. Also, if you're use to hitting backspace in it's normal position with your right hand, using your right hand to press backspace on a split spacebar seems to make sense to me.

But yes, everything would be reprogrammable, so it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that I'd need some support for this 4x13 layout instead of the HyperMicro's 4x12 so that 7bit offers it as an option. While the HyperMicro's small size is cool, it's just a little bit _too_ small to be practical for everyday situations. It's missing some very required punctuation and there are only 9 keys on the home row, which means that one of your index fingers doesn't even have a button to press in the "middle" so you can't touchtype normally.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 31 October 2012, 21:25:57
im in whats the base layout were actually going with though?

 o and im a boss because i hit space with both thumbs and my right index finger!
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: wetto on Wed, 31 October 2012, 21:29:19
im in whats the base layout were actually going with though?

 o and im a boss because i hit space with both thumbs and my right index finger!

lol, I also do that and a lot, depending on what letters I'm typing.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 31 October 2012, 21:31:50
im in whats the base layout were actually going with though?

 o and im a boss because i hit space with both thumbs and my right index finger!

lol, I also do that and a lot, depending on what letters I'm typing.
and that is why the 4 spaces i had on my original phantom didnt work out for me at all i would always hit between the keys
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: absyrd on Thu, 01 November 2012, 05:12:53
Someone has been drooling over my sig (and taken it to the next level)!

Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 01 November 2012, 10:42:24
Ok, this is getting silly...

You can shrink and make infinite layers. But it only goes "so far" before it will seriously hamper productivity..

You could never code on this keyboard.. You can't even type smilies efficiently.. /thread :D
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 01 November 2012, 12:00:10
A lot of people here aren't coders anyways, and if you're coding, you need to hold the shift modifier to get () and {} anyways, so what's the difference in holding Fn instead? :D The point of the thread was for tiny sized keyboards, and I think it's pretty neat to see how small you can make it without reducing the ability to do "regular typing" by removing some of the programming related symbols. At the same time, you can keep just as much functionality using the Fn layer if you really need to, which I really don't see as a problem since normal keyboards are already using a Shift layer to access many things.

Anyways, here's yet another design that I'm even more partial to, but I think that people would be less accepting of. Someone had mentioned symmetrical staggering in the DT thread earlier, so here's one at 0.25x unit staggering.

(http://i.imgur.com/rkksR.png)

I think it makes very good use of the space and has things located pretty well for a sort of "default" layout, but you could easily change some things around in the firmware. I tried having 1x Ctrl - 1x Win -1x Alt on the bottom but I think this is a bit nicer. I would probably personally change Shift and Fn here, though I left it like this because I think that people would be afraid to change where Shift is.

For the most part it is identical to the one I posted above, except that the modifiers along the right and left sides have their sizes getting smaller as you go down instead of getting bigger. There's a 0.5x empty space between G and H. For those who just want a "regular" staggered keyboard layout, I would highly encourage you to give this a shot! Your right hand is tilted inward like this on a regular keyboard, this just changes the left hand to tilt inward rather than outward, something which makes far more sense! It's not hard to learn how to type like this at all either, I assure you. It feels quite natural.

Also, my apologies to 7bit for filling his thread with far too many wacky designs... I'm sure things would be much simpler without me. I do quite love this layout though.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: wetto on Thu, 01 November 2012, 12:06:41
Kinda made me think there'd be a:

(http://www.baixaki.com.br/imagens/materias/notebookslaptops1.jpg)

Right on the middle of it,  :p


Anyways, interesting design, though... What do you think about putting an Enter Key instead of " `~ " there? I know it's crazy, but it seems it would lower the time required for most people to press the enter key.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 01 November 2012, 12:17:11
A trackpoint would definitely be pretty cool. I hadn't thought of that and not sure if the person who'd be doing the designs knows how to incorporate one.

Again since it's programmable you can reassign any of the keys as you like, this was just one more typical looking suggestion of mine.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 04 November 2012, 01:30:56
How plausable is this turning into a real project?
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Sun, 11 November 2012, 17:56:32
ask 7bit :))
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 11 November 2012, 18:18:58
nice one sth
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Sun, 11 November 2012, 18:22:10
well for real he is the one running it. so take that into consideration. he ALWAYS has a lot on his plate (3 or so concurrent GBs? i lost track :P)
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 11 November 2012, 18:28:19
o i know im going to need switches from his switch GB soon.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 11 November 2012, 22:34:30
Alright, last idea. I added one column, so it's now 4x13, which makes it usable for Colemak and Dvorak people while still providing usefulness for Qwerty people and keeping it smaller than usual. Again, don't focus on where exactly everything is since the idea is that this is reprogrammable, just focus on the size of the keys and the physical layout to see what kind of options it provides.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/CZLlK.png)


Notes:
Punctuation is grouped together. For European people `~ is available, for myself I'd replace it with hyphen probably.
1.5x - 1x - 1.5x mods on the bottom left which people enjoy and which lets them use part of their RGBY kits.
Arrows available in the top layer, similar to the Race or Deck keyboards.
All characters needed for "basic writing" with the exception of maybe hyphen and parentheses.
' " is pretty close to where it normally is.
Comma and period in their normal places, ? pretty close to normal.
Left shift that reaches to the edge of the board, which is better for gamers.
That circle is back in the middle... Not sure what to do about it. If I removed it then the space and backspace would become too large and need stabilizers. I'm sure 7bit is happier to see it there though for whatever he uses it for! Could be used for another layer or as an Alt Gr for European characters.
This one is the best so far, as it's the closest to providing Dvorak comptability. I'm just no interested in the rest. Why buy a KB if you can't use it in Dvorak?

Although the bottom row is one key too short, it should be pretty easy to swap Z and ; Both are little used enough, the switch would be easy.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: davkol on Mon, 12 November 2012, 07:48:25
Anyways, here's yet another design that I'm even more partial to, but I think that people would be less accepting of. Someone had mentioned symmetrical staggering in the DT thread earlier, so here's one at 0.25x unit staggering.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/rkksR.png)

At first I thought "yet another keyboard with staggered layout, meh", but this would make me *very* interested.

Kinda made me think there'd be a:

Show Image
(http://www.baixaki.com.br/imagens/materias/notebookslaptops1.jpg)


Right on the middle of it,  :p

And this would make it even better!
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 12 November 2012, 18:22:20
one product do you have a bl
ank one so that I can make my own tweaks?
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: rknize on Mon, 12 November 2012, 19:40:36
I'd be happy with just a re-programmable Poker.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Mon, 12 November 2012, 19:41:42
I'd be happy with just a re-programmable Poker.
there is a programmable poker-esque layout. go register interest on DT! i never meant for this thread to be a separate discussion, just a heads up :P
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: rknize on Mon, 12 November 2012, 19:46:54
Yeah, I see it...the ANSIWIN.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 12 November 2012, 19:49:39
Yeah, I see it...the ANSIWIN.

I would go for the GH60 over this since you can have a poker/standard layout, but it's 100% programmable.
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: sth on Mon, 12 November 2012, 19:51:06
is there something preventing people from understanding that the hyper layouts are completely and 100% totally programmable?
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 12 November 2012, 19:57:22
is there something preventing people from understanding that the hyper layouts are completely and 100% totally programmable?


He said he wanted a re-programmable poker. The GH60 is that + different layout options


justsayin'
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: rknize on Tue, 13 November 2012, 01:59:07
Yeah, the GH60 layout is pretty much what I want.  I don't know why 7bit has a similar layout.  Knowing him, we won't see those boards for a few years anyway.  :)
Title: Re: hyper micro and other layouts! go register your interest!!
Post by: tufty on Tue, 13 November 2012, 05:55:03
(http://i.imgur.com/rkksR.png)
Hell I like that one. Reminds me a lot of US patent 20050180794