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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Karsk1n on Mon, 12 November 2012, 04:48:25

Title: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Karsk1n on Mon, 12 November 2012, 04:48:25: Hello guys,

I'm new to this forum and i've heard this is the best place for facts/info on mechanical keyboards :rolleyes:. Now for some information...I do have 2 mechanical keyboards atm, one mx blue and one mx red, both from Qpad (Mk-80 and Mk-85). They are pretty decent but take up a little too much space on my desk, hence i'm in search for a new keybaord.

Now the problem is, as i am a pretty serious gamer, i do not like how the they build mechanical keyboards in terms of shape. I am in no way an expert on mechanical keyboards other than the fact they feel nice typing on them. However, from a gaming point of view (Old school FPS player since 1999) most of them are way to high shapewise. The good thing about for example the Qpad Mk-85 is that it actually comes with attachable wristrest which should be standard on every mechanical keyboard, but unfortunately that's far from the case. Higher quality keyboards such as filco and ducky seem way behind in terms of ergonimics seemingly dated in the late 80's. It is beyond me why these companies build such (apparently) great keyboards, yet they seem to be lost in the ergonimic department. For example, i would love this keyboard:

http://www.maxfps.se/imagepopup.aspx?image=images/products/10986_large.jpg

...but unfortunately it is too high (not the keys, but the frame on these keyboards is hilariously high), making it unappealing/wrist fatigue and without any attachable/supplied wristrest like Mk-85. Some may say "buy ducky wristrest" <-- Not really interested in buying an external wristrest that from what i've read dosen't stick in place even. See picture ->

http://i45.tinypic.com/jsgehk.jpg

So my 2 questions to you mechanical experts :) are:
1) Are there any mechanical keyboard with MX cherry reds with a tenkeyless layout (like the picture above) with a supplied wristrest or with a lower profiled frame, so you don't need a wristrest, available to buy from where i am (Sweden)?

2) I'm also interested in a clicky keyboard (not mx cherry blue) with either white alps or perhaps a rubberdome clicky keyboard (if they exist)? Any clicky keyboard basically that dosen't use high actuation pressure (below 60g), that is attainable for me in Sweden.

Thanks alot and regards
/Karsk1n
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: jeroplane on Mon, 12 November 2012, 04:59:39: Mechanical keyboards (and particularly Cherry MX) need to have a higher frame by design. The switches themselves are not low profile by any means and so the case needs to be high enough to fit them and the PCB.

I think you will find that choosing a mechanical keyboard by using the supplied wristrest as a criteria is not the best way to go about it. Most will not have one bundled. They're made on the basis that you will be using proper typing technique, i.e. wrists off the desk.

But I'll let other people chime in with recommendations if there are any. Most of the keyboards that include a wrist rest (e.g. WASDKeyboards has the option) are not tenkeyless.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: pitashen on Mon, 12 November 2012, 05:10:37: Getting a wrist rest is your best option. If mx switch based boards can be made thinner, it would have already been done so. I have not yet seen a tenkeyless board with an attached wrist rest.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Karsk1n on Mon, 12 November 2012, 05:13:21: I see... thats a shame.... any of you know about question nr 2 then?
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: jeroplane on Mon, 12 November 2012, 05:23:43: Not sure about the White Alps - I think you'd want to go looking for some older keyboards on eBay or Tradera since Alps keyboards are no longer in production. Sweden and the European countries around there are a good place to be to locate some of these for great prices. Examples of Alps keyboards are Silicon Graphics keyboards, Apple Extended Keyboard II, Dell AT101.

And for "rubberdome" mechanical keyboards, you would be looking at Topre switches. However they are considerably more expensive. Examples are Realforce (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless) or Happy Hacking Keyboards. There have been a few Realforces going for sale in the Classifieds recently, so that is one option to get a better deal.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Karsk1n on Mon, 12 November 2012, 05:38:55: ok thank you. I knew about topre, but they are indeed expensive, especially as i would like to try it out before consider buying one... And also is topre really clicky (they dosen't sound so clicky tbh)? Also they have a 4 mm travel which is pretty long travel for gaming since (correct me if i'm wrong) the buttoms actuates at the bottom compared to mx cherry.

What i do like about white alps is that they have shorter actuation time and click at the bottom which i understand how they work (so you know exactly they click when the key activates). Argh are there no cheap plain rubberdome clickies?
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 12 November 2012, 06:50:37: This is not a problem for me, however, as a designer, I think that a solution for you might be built in the woodworking shop.

Get a large board or piece of plywood appropriately thick for your needs. The wood should accommodate the keyboard and the mouse area with several cm to spare all around, including the equivalent of a wrist rest at the front. Cut out a rectangular hole for the keyboard, and now you have a "false desktop" with the keyboard recessed into it.

Naturally, this would be a bulky and heavy item, but it would give you an opportunity for things like a permanent or built-in mouse pad.

Personally, I have a large gel wrist rest, the same height as my keyboard, and I love it.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: tufty on Mon, 12 November 2012, 07:54:28: Also , check out matias.ca

Basically alps keys, but quiet. Or not, depending on what board you get.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Karsk1n on Mon, 12 November 2012, 08:58:43: @fohat.digs

Yeah the sollution you describe would probably be ideal for what you are doing, but not so much for me as my ergonomics while playing is a bit awkward and not really helpful while doing such a thing. Thanks for the tips though. Might be nice to have in consideration.

@tufty

That keyboard looks great and white alps just as i'm looking for. However...the clicky keyboard only seem to be one model (Matias Tactile Pro) and only seem to be for Mac users (or am i wrong?). Also i can't find anywhere on that site where you can have it shipped with a swedish layout or at least nordic layout :(
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 12 November 2012, 09:01:50: Matias regularly communicates here, there's a vendor subforum where I am pretty sure he has stated that both some form of nordic and a PC clicky version are on the todo list. I don't follow closely the parts that I'm not interested in so don't take this as a guarantee that it's happening.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Karsk1n on Mon, 12 November 2012, 09:06:28: Okay that sounds good. I have mailed matias at their homepage just now and see what they say (waiting for answer). But if i haven't totally missed it, they currently don't seem to offer swedish/nordic layout right now at least.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: khaangaaroo on Mon, 12 November 2012, 09:39:21: The others are right, the cherry switches themselves are pretty thick. But there is a way a squeeze a little bit of height from them, especially from the rear. You can get rid of the case, put some rubber feet (thinnest that will allow proper clearance) on the PCB, and let the keyboard rest on those. On the keyboard below, the tilt is pretty close to zero degrees. After I did that, the keyboard was at a point where I didn't need a wrist rest most of the time. For longer periods of gaming, I would pull out a big fat wrist rest for extra comfort.

(http://s12.postimage.org/caxbo887h/391581_10101565661543523_849842128_n.jpg)
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: cosmonauti on Mon, 12 November 2012, 09:47:39: FYI Amazon has deals on Grifiti products right now: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aag/main?ie=UTF8&asin=&isAmazonFulfilled=&isCBA=&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&orderID=&seller=A2DYI0TZHMIXXX

Couldn't hurt to pick on up
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Karsk1n on Mon, 12 November 2012, 11:36:05: Quote from: khaangaaroo on Mon, 12 November 2012, 09:39:21
The others are right, the cherry switches themselves are pretty thick. But there is a way a squeeze a little bit of height from them, especially from the rear. You can get rid of the case, put some rubber feet (thinnest that will allow proper clearance) on the PCB, and let the keyboard rest on those. On the keyboard below, the tilt is pretty close to zero degrees. After I did that, the keyboard was at a point where I didn't need a wrist rest most of the time. For longer periods of gaming, I would pull out a big fat wrist rest for extra comfort.

Show Image
(http://s12.postimage.org/caxbo887h/391581_10101565661543523_849842128_n.jpg)

Aha yeah that's a pretty nice idea. But where can you buy thin rubber feet?
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Binge on Mon, 12 November 2012, 11:47:16: The most thin space saver designs I've seen are the Filco brand keyboards, Race, Pure, Poker, and when it comes to full sized keyboards the KBTalking Pro has a ridiculously low profile.... well lower than I'm used to.

Rubber feet? Lowes, home depot, walmart, or any other big box/hardware store. Take your pick. Usually I find the most interesting stuff under the home improvement section.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 12 November 2012, 12:36:18: And of course there's always ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-Pieces-Clear-Rubber-Feet-Self-Adhesive-Bumper-Cabinet-/251041060390?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a73369626).
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Karsk1n on Tue, 13 November 2012, 14:49:26: Since there are no real sollutions right now (as far as i'm concerned) when it comes to a lower profiled (frame +keys) type of MX cherry board in a tenkeyless format i will probably go back to either Mk-85, but most likely keep using my rubberdome membrane keyboard logitech k300 because of the fact i have the keyboard in a position far to the left in comparison to the screen, which makes a small key board quite important (and low profiled). Awesome keyboard btw (best i've owned). Recommended to all who are gaming for sure.

The few options available that i am interested in are Matias tactile pro and Topre. Why on earth are there no more white alps available to buy, for example in tenkeyless form? What most people don't know is that just as Mx cherry are designed to touch type on to be effective, it is also bad for refined aiming in certain FPS games due to the fact the actuation is at 2 mm, while at the same time you will always press down the whole key in FPS games, making certain movement aiming less reliable/effective. It's not a huge thing though and only affects certain games. That's why i wonder about white alps as well as it dosen't suffer from this, as the keys activate at the buttom. Further more, Topre seems awesome, good size and not too high frame. But then again...who would dare buy such an expensive keyboard without trying it first? :eek:

Also the Qpad Mk-85 appear to be lower (frame) than most other mecahnical keyboards that i've seen to such degree that you can actually play with it without the attachable wristrest. So it appears the manufacturers could squeeze down the frame height a little bit further as far as i'm concerned. Maybe we will see a tenkeyless with wristrest or with a little bit lower frame in the future...I mean in either case it's not the end of the world lol. Anyway, i still think it's really ****ty and bad that they don't offer attachable wristrests with tenkeyless, as they lose customers doing so (hello ducky, filco, etc) as i'm most likely not the only one out there with these requests. Now their products are sold to enthusiasts who buy them for their feeling but the gamers turn elsewhere most of the times (and that's where the real market is, gaming industry). There's a reason why the Qpad mechanical keyboards are one of the best selling keyboards out there for gamers (even though they are no where near as good as filco or ducky or some other brands), just as some other brands who all come with attachable wristrests. Come back from the 80's ducky/filco etc please.

@Binge
Yeah they are space savers, but in no way a slim(mer) frame design, and the other is a full sized keyboard and i can't really see myself exchanging Mk-85 in that regard.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: esoomenona on Tue, 13 November 2012, 15:14:06: One thing I don't think anyone mentioned is swapping out caps for Cherry profile ones. Those reduce the overall height considerably.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Karsk1n on Wed, 14 November 2012, 13:11:10: Quote from: esoomenona on Tue, 13 November 2012, 15:14:06
One thing I don't think anyone mentioned is swapping out caps for Cherry profile ones. Those reduce the overall height considerably.

Where can i buy these? Haven't seen low profile keys for mx boards anywhere...
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: asura on Wed, 14 November 2012, 13:22:43: Either from a donor board, lysol's group buy (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31861.0) or somewhere else...
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 14 November 2012, 13:23:18: Standard Cherry caps off of Cherry branded keyboards use their profile which is the lowest profile available for MX switches. Also, Imsto is/will be producing Cherry profile PBT caps.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 14 November 2012, 13:36:45: you'll only get a thinner or less depth mechanical keyboard by going with the ml switches, like the ml4100
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 14 November 2012, 13:45:26: I should also mention you can get sets from Signature Plastics (SP) as well, which are lower in profile. A lot of the sets you see in the classifieds and group buys are SP profile.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 14 November 2012, 13:45:49: Ml is very low and very linear. It is also very sturdy or stiff depending on how you look at it. Mx kisa wobbles if you noticed. Have you heard of corsair k60? It seems to be the lowest keyboard on the market. Its plate is also its upper housing. It comes with a nice fps wrist rest with some nice contoured keycaps. A big downside is that it is only part mx and part rubber dome. It is not tenkeyless but has chery mx reds.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Joe6pack on Wed, 14 November 2012, 16:04:22: Quote from: fohat.digs on Mon, 12 November 2012, 06:50:37
This is not a problem for me, however, as a designer, I think that a solution for you might be built in the woodworking shop.

Get a large board or piece of plywood appropriately thick for your needs. The wood should accommodate the keyboard and the mouse area with several cm to spare all around, including the equivalent of a wrist rest at the front. Cut out a rectangular hole for the keyboard, and now you have a "false desktop" with the keyboard recessed into it.

Naturally, this would be a bulky and heavy item, but it would give you an opportunity for things like a permanent or built-in mouse pad.

Personally, I have a large gel wrist rest, the same height as my keyboard, and I love it.

Excellent. Around here in the US, we go to Home Depot to find stuff to improvise a solution :'( As long as it works, then we shall start thinking how it looks, and go to Ikea to find a nice looking desk to put the keyboard on. This is the country where we drink coffee and eat food while driving.

I just found out I am typing on a mechanical keyboard with whatever mx switches.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 14 November 2012, 16:35:28: If you're going to be using MX switches, you can't do much about the height. You might be able to shave a few millimeters off the bottom case and the keycaps, but the distance between the plate and the PCB is fixed because of the cherry mx switch specs. And you also need the case to insulate the bottom of the PCB. Wrist rest is your best option.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Karsk1n on Thu, 15 November 2012, 04:10:04: Yeah but unless you are a real enthusiast, i find it too much trouble getting stuff lol (keycaps etc here in Sweden). I might be 100% wrong though but it feels like so much crux. I mean if one wants a really fancy keyboard and all that it might be worth the trouble. On top of that, lower profile keycaps seem hard to get by, and also cost alot? Why can't there just be local stores where you can test/buy all kind of adds/mods etc -.-

@WhiteFireDragon
Is that really true? Look at the pic khaangaaroo posted, taking away the frame + adding low keycaps on that would almost make the keyboard "normal" framewise (really thin). As you can clearly see on Qpad Mk-85 it is noticably thinner than most other Cherry mx boards out there. I've tried other Mechanical keyboards and i get fatigue/pain after a while, but not on MK-85 without the wristrest + affecting my gameplay negatively.

@alaricljs
Imsto?

@TheQsanity
Corsair Vengeance K60 indeed seem like a good example of how you can reduce the frame height compared to some of the other brands (even though i don't know if the actual height is lesser from bottom to the top of the key). Too bad about the mix of mx and rubberdome switches though.

@Lanx
The Cherry ML 4100 is too small i'm afraid. Not sure i like those swithes either... Is the actuation the same as MX red? Key travel? Force for pressing the key?
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 15 November 2012, 10:18:41: Quote from: esoomenona on Tue, 13 November 2012, 15:14:06
One thing I don't think anyone mentioned is swapping out caps for Cherry profile ones. Those reduce the overall height considerably.
If by "considerably", you mean about 1.5 mm, then yes. Such a small change can make a good difference, though.

At home I use a vintage keyboard that is not angled. The top of the case is completely parallel to the desk surface. It does have Cherry MX switches and original Cherry key caps. I prefer it this way.

Cherry ML switches feel like crap and the keyboard profile is not curved. Most cheap scissor switch keyboards feel better.
Title: Re: In search of a slimmer mechanical keyboard
Post by: Lanx on Thu, 15 November 2012, 10:56:29: ml switches are entirely different switches, but are basically the only low profile mechanical switches. are they good, yes, are they better than rubber dome? yup are they better than mx switches or even compare? nope, that said i have two, one in my htpc (cuz the profile is so small) and my wife uses one as a daily driver.