geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Chase5delta on Sat, 17 November 2012, 16:44:35
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Hey Guys, My birthday and Christmas are coming up pretty soon, so I was thinking I would treat myself to a new mechanical keyboard. I have been using a steel series 7g for a while now, but am looking for something new. What is you guys' opinion on the best keyboard money can buy? I preferably want a tenkeyless model with backlights but they are not neccessary . Money is really not much of an option, just wanted to know what the creme of the crop was. Thanks :D
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My personal recommendation is this one (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se19e0).
However, if you must go Cherry MX, I'd go with a Filco MJ2 in your preferred switch type. Don't worry about the backlighting, most boards that have it aren't very well put together.
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Wow down from $299 to $269. I may have to pull the trigger on my first Topre board once it gets down to $250.
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Don't expect to get the best board for the price of a Steal Series. Custom Keron boards carry a pretty hefty price tag. You can however get a very nice keyboard. What about the KBC Poker? http://webwit.nl/kbc60/1.jpg
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What are the specs of the Poker? Cherry Keys? Or are they something different.
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http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400w
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HHKB HG. You did say money is no object.
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I'm real happy with my Filco MJ2 TKL... but I did swap the ninja keys for a set of imsto's dyesub PBT's.
EDIT: reds FTW
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I think I may end up having to get a white HHKB as well. One isn't enough!
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What are the specs of the Poker? Cherry Keys? Or are they something different.
Well, the main reason to buy a Poker is it's size and aesthetics. Have a look at this, it should give you some things to look out for as well as just lurking GH a little more. http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mechanical-keyboard-guide Finding a mechinal keyboard can be as easy or as hard as you want it to be because by the end you'll more than likely be happy with whichever board you choose.
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HHKB.
/thread
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I don't know if I'd call the Poker a high quality board...
I absolutely love my Realforce 87U. I also really love my Leopold FC200R (both are available at EliteKeyboards)
Leopold has also created the FC700R which comes with PBT keycaps. Not available in US unless you get someone to import it from Korea for you, but I'll bet it's very nice.
Also if money is no object and you want Cherry MX instead of Topre, KeyboardStory is selling the Typenow solid. It's a big metal chunk :) pretty much the opposite of the Poker
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I will always have love for my first: Filco Majestouch 2
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So RealForce or Happy Hacking? I can't choose. Real Force look really nice but idk.
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I think costar boards are the ones with best keyboards you can buy, that arent custom boards. =)
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I agree with metalliiqaz
The poker is nowhere near a high quality board, it's cheap tbh,
mine is not even levelled (it wobbles when you type on it)
You may want this board for its small form factor but you'll need to pimp it with imsto's alu case and Thebeast plate to make it feel solid
otherwise I would say Filco mj2 is a safe option
If you are looking for a small board the noppoo choc mini is great: plate mounted, 75% layout, cheap
hope this helps
edit: didn't see your last post, might be off topic if you are looking for topre ^^
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http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se19e0 What do you guys think about this board? Is the 45g a good switch?
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Forget all this newfangled stuff. Get an IBM model F. They had to change the idiom to include it: "The only things certain in life are Death and taxes. Taxes which you will be using your Model F for 'cause it never breaks".
On top of all that, I prefer the feel of my model F to any other keyboard I've yet tried (I still need to buy a topre and gut it for keychains).
Based on spec's the only thing that really compares are the custom ones (KMAC, etc.) and topre. Model F has NKRO, metal backplate, metal barrel mounting plate, DYEsub PBT keycaps (the best) etc. Topre has NKRO, Dyesub (or blank) PBt keycaps, but a plastic case (which is supposed to be pretty strong, though)
So my vote goes vintage. You will not regret it. I am told that after performing a dental floss mod, it will be even better, but I will leave that argument up to those who have tried it.
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To the OP: I just sent you a PM.
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Money no object? In that case, some ideas to consider...
Since you like backlighting, Deck (http://www.deckkeyboards.com/).
μTron (http://www.amazon.co.jp/Personal-Media-Media-%E3%83%9E%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AF%E3%83%ADTRON%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89-U01C0240-01-%E5%B7%A6%E5%8F%B3%E5%88%86%E9%9B%A2%E5%9E%8B%E9%9D%99%E9%9B%BB%E5%AE%B9%E9%87%8F%E7%84%A1%E6%8E%A5%E7%82%B9%E6%96%B9%E5%BC%8F%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%EF%BC%88%E3%83%86%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B9%EF%BC%89/dp/B004BZ2TOA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353308279&sr=8-1).
TypeNow Solid (http://www.keyboardstory.com/products/product/25-typenow-solid-cherry-mx-blues).
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If I could get any keyboard for free. Id get a topre or korean board just because I hear such good things about them.
My favorite board right now would be a pbc mounted kb.
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HHKB PRO 2
Model: PD-KB400B
I own a filco tkl cherry brown/blue
and a model M though i try to get some hours on these
the HHKB manages to stay plugged in to the pc the most
its just a better feeling keyboard all around and i prefer the black on black oem keycaps IMO for what its worth
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What is all of your opinion on the Leopold Otaku keyboard? The price seems relatively low but for the most part I have heard leopold get a lot of praise.
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What is all of your opinion on the Leopold Otaku keyboard? The price seems relatively low but for the most part I have heard leopold get a lot of praise.
I can't speak to the Otaku specifically, but that is just blank caps. Leopold is Costar made, and so gets the usual praise. However, there are a few gotchas that may or may not matter to you, first is the use of Cherry Stablizers. Also the sizing of the spacebar has been an issue with replacement keycap sets. I should add, I use a Leopold at work and find it to be just fine in quality, though I'd prefer to have blank keycaps...
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Personally, you want a decent price tag, quality, and backlighting right? Then you should opt for the Ducky Shine 2 Tenkeyless 9087 series. They have the backlighting you want in various colors, as well as pretty much every type of cherry switch you're looking for. They're also for sale for about $133 at mechanicalkeyboards.com. You can also get the year of the dragon edition which has even cooler backlighting features. I have a Ducky Shine 2 Full size white led with cherry mx reds and I really like it. It has 5 different brightness levels (which you need because max lighting is very blinding).
On the other hand, if price isn't an object, and you feel that you need the $300 keyboard, the Topre would be the way to go. They have really, really nice switches that are considered to be better than cherry switches.
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I do think that the ducky shine is really cool, but I really want a tenkeyless board. If I could find a filco or leopold with all blank white switches and a white case with mx reds I think I would be very happy
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EDIT: all blank keycaps* sorry
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Oh, now I found the keyboard you were actually talking about (the tenkeyless shine) and wow these look great
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Filco Majestouch 2 or Topre Realforce U87 (both are pretty expensive).
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The poker is nowhere near a high quality board, it's cheap tbh,
mine is not even levelled (it wobbles when you type on it)
you need to loosen the screws holding the pcb to the case, then re-tighten them evenly. get them all tightened enough so there is resistance when you turn the screw, then start from the outsides working in, screw in each screw a quarter turn. once you get into the furthest middle screw, repeat the process until all screws are tight.
if you or the factory screwed each screw tight one at a time the board is going to wobble because you put undue stress on only one side causing it to tighten down in such a way that the pcb will be uneven with the mounting holes.
you might also want to try the filco-flex, it might help to seat the metal screw insets evenly.
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Money is really not much of an option, just wanted to know what the creme of the crop was. Thanks :D
I assume you meant to say "money is not much of an object". In which case I agree with you 100%
I will pay anything in order to get a good keyboard.
For me, money only matters when there are 2 different products which are equally good or equally bad.
I have spent 20+ hours per day for 12 days now doing nothing but studying and shopping for keyboards trying to find a good one.
I have my eye on one right now that I will probably buy. But I would have to test it out before I recommend it. I have already been tricked a few times so I will be real careful from now on.
I can't tell you what the best keyboard is right now because I have not calculated/found that yet.
But I have found a few keyboards that are not the best.
Topre is not the best. They can't even figure out how to make a keyboard work on an industry standard PS/2 port. I have been asking them to make a normal keyboard that works on a PS/2 port every year since 2003. They flat out refuse. They pay someone a lot of money to rig all their keyboards to not work with any USB to PS/2 adapters.
I have tried to give Topre $900.00 for 3 keyboards every year for 9 years but they just are not interested. I would have even paid extra to get PS/2 compatablity. But I have given up on them now. 9 years is too long to wait for a feature that comes free on so many keyboards from so many manufacturers at 1/4 the price of a Topre.
Leopold is not the best because they go to great lengths and spare no expense wasting thousands of dollars to make nonstandard unreplaceable keys. If they supplied the keyboard with indestructible, perfectly smooth keys then I would not hold this against them so much. But, while their keys are "good" they are not "great" either so I would need to replace them, or modify them. I was just about to buy 2 Leopolds when I found out they had snuck a nonstandard spacebar into their new Keyboards. They have been using nonstandard spacebars for years but this new spacebar is even incompatible with their old spacebars. Ugh. I was about to buy 2 aluminum spacebars for $50.00 when I found out that Leopold doesn't want me to change my spacebar.
Cherry is not the best because, like Leopold they think we should pay them extra money so they can design weirdo noncentered shiftlock keys. They have been shipping keyboards with nonstandard shiftlock keys for decades but their newest model, which I darn near almost bought, has a new noncentered shiftlock that is totally incompatible with their old noncentered shiftlocks. Why do keyboard companies keep wasting their time and money to design keys that nobody wants when the standard keys are free? They keys are on the shelf waiting to be put onto the keyboard but no, they have to make a new mold and make whole new weirdo keys just to prevent anyone from replacing their keycaps in a color-coordinated manner.
Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 is not the best because it lacks actual cursor keys. In order to cursor around you must press an additional key. I find this annoying and antiergonomical. I found another one called the Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite 2 which has a much much improved layout with real cursor keys. So I could buy that one but oh wait, they added the cursor keys for me but then they ripped out the beautiful Topre switches and put in a rubber dome over membrane diabolically evil horrifically antiergonomical monster under the hood.
Das is not the best because all their keyboards that I could find have this big piece of plastic sticking out for no apparent reason but to waste my desk space. Why is that giant piece of plastic there? Is there a 2.5" drive in there? A GPS tracking device? A wireless router? Why is that there? Can anyone tell me?
HPE 87 is probably not the best keyboard because it allegedly uses nonstandard spacing between the keys. People were complaining about the keys being to far apart and sure enough, the first website I went to listed the key spacing as 20mm instead of 19mm. If you want extra space between your keys for some reason then this could be a good keyboard for you. But if you want the same spacing you have used for years then this keyboard might feel really weird to you.
I don't think you would like the Kinesis for gaming, but who knows?
If money is no object you could buy one and try it. At the very least you would be supporting a company that is trying to break radical new ground in the keyboard industry. Just make sure to get the one with Cherry Red switches.
There were many other keyboards that I researched and scratched off my list because they were missing important keys or they switched the positions of some keys to be on the opposite side of the keyboard.
I am still researching other keyboards such as Rosewill, CoolerMaster Quickfire Rapid, Ducky, Filco, Kinesis and various other Chinese keyboards plus anything else I can find. Whatever happens, I intend to buy at least 3 keyboards with Cherry Red switches. I may very well end up with 7 or 8.
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Well if what you said about Leopold's keycaps being non replaceable I guess this leaves me with buying a ducky or maybe a filco. These seem like the best options at the moment.
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HHKB PRO 2
Model: PD-KB400B
I own a filco tkl cherry brown/blue
and a model M though i try to get some hours on these
the HHKB manages to stay plugged in to the pc the most
its just a better feeling keyboard all around and i prefer the black on black oem keycaps IMO for what its worth
This. In all honesty, if I wasn't in Visual Studio so much I'd be on the HHKB all the freakin time.
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Topre is not the best. They can't even figure out how to make a keyboard work on an industry standard PS/2 port. I have been asking them to make a normal keyboard that works on a PS/2 port every year since 2003. They flat out refuse. They pay someone a lot of money to rig all their keyboards to not work with any USB to PS/2 adapters.
I have tried to give Topre $900.00 for 3 keyboards every year for 9 years but they just are not interested. I would have even paid extra to get PS/2 compatablity. But I have given up on them now. 9 years is too long to wait for a feature that comes free on so many keyboards from so many manufacturers at 1/4 the price of a Topre.
Have you tried the "G-Tune Masterpiece" keyboard? It's a PS/2 Topre...
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@FoxWolf
Thanks for the infos, I hadn't heard of that one. Too bad it is only available in Japanese layout. :(
I would need to do a bunch more studying to figure out what the ramifications of Japanese layout are and which keys on that board can/cannot be replaced with EK Topre sets.
The pics were not good enough for me to see if the keyboard has all the keys it is supposed to have. So I still need to figure that out.
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Chase5delta, lol! Yeah, I meant the tenkeyless one. They are great, although they might not have the "custom" look you are looking for with the Cherry style boards and aluminum cases and what not. However, they do support N-key rollover on USB and the lighting features I think are the best in the market, especially with the reactive mode (just ordered Feng's semi-clear grey keys should look sweeeet). No other keyboard can offer the lighting features the Ducky does, fyi. I really, really like my keyboard to light up and have some cool light up stuff on it, so Ducky was the only choice for me, without spending tons of money. Anyways, yeah, hopefully that helped out!
Another cool thing about Ducky: They're usually sold out, very limited. I had to purchase my keyboard off of some dude on eBay. Most places are sold out, so you know they produce these in limited quantities. I don't know, that won me over lol. Limited stuff you have that other people have a hard time getting that doesn't cost a fortune = winning.
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TotalChaos, holy crap you're a keyboard guru. That was amazing. I'm actually REALLY glad I didnt purchase a Leopold now. My friend has one, and it's great and all, but it doesn't light up ;) Are you sure about the spacebar issue? My friend ordered a new keyset from WASDkeyboards and it fit right in, but maybe he didn't change the space bar...what a bummer for him and a relief for me! Lol.
I completely agree with the Das Keyboard. I was JUST about to buy that...until like he said...unnecessary SHINY (so I can see fingerprints?) extra plastic that you pay for that has nothing to do with anything.
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Well if what you said about Leopold's keycaps being non replaceable I guess this leaves me with buying a ducky or maybe a filco. These seem like the best options at the moment.
Leopold key caps are, for the most part, standard Cherry MX key caps.
The space bar has differently spaced wossnames underneath - that will be the biggest challenge to replace. But some companies are now making space bars with extra wossnames for standard and Leopold keyboards.
Then there are caps lock and scroll lock - they have LED cutouts in the key caps. To get the full effect you would have to replace the key caps with the same i.e. with cutouts, or put up with not clearly seeing the LED when it is lit. If that is a major concern.
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Are you sure about the spacebar issue?
If you go to this thread and start reading at post #69 you can see the whole spacebar issue with Leopolds explained:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36795.60 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36795.60)
There is also a lot of other info in there about my problems with various keyboards being of inferior quality.
In case you are to lazy :p to read that other thread I will summarize the spacebar part here:
I was going to buy 2 Leopold FC500RR/ABN from EliteKeyboards.com when I suddenly found out
As far as spacebar stabilizer stems go, you have basically these types:
1. "standard" like this group buy (Filco, Das, Ducky, Rosewill, WASD, etc.)
2. Cherry, which has standard stem spacing but an off-center center stem
3. Leopold FC200R
4. Leopold FC500/700
5. 7X spacebars
Obviously there are others out there but I don't come across them much. Most group buys for keycap sets these days have "universal" spacebars which fit the first three items in that list. This Alu spacebar only fits the first.
As soon as people started making universal spacebars to fit Leopold Keyboards, Leopold spent a bunch of money to intentionally make their spacebar be incompatible with their new models. There was nothing wrong with the old Leopolds (other than their screwey spacebar). They could have simply kept cranking out the old Leopolds. But instead, they went to the expense of designing and releasing a new model so they could sneak in yet another new incompatible spacebar.
If Leopold wants to pull stunts like that then they are free to do that. And I am free to not give them any money.
The whole reason I am shopping for "Cherry MX" keyboards is because "Cherry MX" keys can be replaced with very very beautiful color-coordinated sets of high quality keys that will last forever. (I have PBT Keys from 1987 that are still in perfect condition). But none of the sets I want will work with a big ugly black spacebar. It would just defeat the purpose. I can find pics if you want to see what I am talking about.
If I did not care about ever replacing the keys then I would be shopping for "Alps compatible keyboards" or "NMB compatible keyboards" or "Buckling Spring compatible keyboards".
I am shopping for "Cherry MX compatible" keyboards because they are an industry standard platform.
Once I pick out a keyboard that is capable of following common sense and industry standards and not missing any main keys and uses some kind of US Layout then I might end up buying a whole bunch of them over the years to give as super beautiful gifts to girlfriends, friends, relatives, team members, etc. But for purposes of gift giving, price starts mattering.
My friend ordered a new keyset from WASDkeyboards and it fit right in, but maybe he didn't change the space bar...what a bummer for him and a relief for me! Lol.
AFAIK all the keys are completely standard on Leopold boards except for the spacebar. You should ask your friend if he changed the spacebar. There are people all over the net who complain about the Leopold spacebars.
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Right now for me, if money was no object, I'd get these two:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130802695984?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/130802695984?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Cherry-G80-3000SAU-MX-Black-Switch-Sublimation-printing-Keycap-Keyboard-PS2-/281022181753?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D3589179423963609751%26pid%3D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D281022181753%26 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Cherry-G80-3000SAU-MX-Black-Switch-Sublimation-printing-Keycap-Keyboard-PS2-/281022181753?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D3589179423963609751%26pid%3D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D281022181753%26)
And I thought I was done with buckling springs. I haven't tried Topre or Alps yet (definitely want to try HHKB and Matias Quiet Pro). Still working my way through Cherry mx switches. So far I like Ergo-clear, reds, and blues. I thought blacks were pretty good. Not enough time with browns. Didn't like greens even though most people seem to.
The Korean keyboards I want are the Titanium Winkeyless KMAC, KPAD, and KMAC Mini.
Here are my more reasonable choices.
I have a Filco Ninja and a Coolermaster Quickfire Rapid. One could argue that you get the same build quality and more features for less money when you buy the QFR because it comes with window's lock, media keys, and replacement WASD keycaps, but for some reason I have to give the edge to my Filco.
I'm very interested in picking up a Ducky Shine 2 tenkeyless (white backlight, cherry mx red) and putting POM Jelly Rainbow keycaps, breaking bad crystal keycaps, and the upcoming glow in the dark keycaps on it.
I really don't think I can recommend only one keyboard. Right now I like my ergo clears for typing but for gaming I like reds and blues.
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PS2 will die out mark my words
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Wow Chaos, I think you need to dial it back just a little bit. 99% of people have no interest in pulling the keycaps of their boards to replace with a custom set. Leopold doesn't care about that, they only care about making a product that will sell. One kid in America is of no concern to them when they sell keyboards by the palate. Same with Topre. Don't think that they have engineers hiding in the shadows dreaming up ways to upset you. Honestly, who buys a keyboard only for the spacebar? I would totally buy a FC700R. I love meh Leo. If you want a keyboard purely for customization, then get a WASD. They are about to release some new TKL boards and you can even buy them without caps if you wish.
Also: LOL @ calling out Cherry for being "non standard" It's Cherry, man!
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99% of people have no interest in pulling the keycaps of their boards to replace with a custom set.
Neither do I. But since nobody makes a keyboard with the same quality as any of the bazillions of keyboards that came free with my compuers back in the 1980s, they are forcing me to replace the keycaps.
Leopold doesn't care about that, they only care about making a product that will sell.
They just lost 2 sales to me last week.
And presumably several more sales over the next year. I need several keyboards in all. So do other people I know. There are other people in my team who have hand problems from using those damnable rubber dome over membrane keyboards. I am planning to buy some keyboards for those people as soon I find a decent one.
> One kid in America is of no concern to them when they sell keyboards by the palate. Same with Topre.
I really wonder how many they sell. It appears to me, as an outside neutral observer who has no inside information, that they only sell in the thousands per year, maximum. Not really large numbers. It would be interesting to somehow get reliable sales figures from someone who has inside information and is trustworthy. Not that sales figures matter, because they don't matter to me as a consumer.
I don't believe they are mass producing nearly as many as you think. If they were mass producing them then they could mass produce doubleshot keycaps for a good price and include them with the keyboard. If you produce 100,000 identical keycap sets using DoubleShot it is totally affordable per unit. You can sell them and make lots of profit.
> Don't think that they have engineers hiding in the shadows dreaming up ways to upset you.
So the incompatible keys designed themselves?
A mold created itself and poured ABS plastic into itself? :p
> Honestly, who buys a keyboard only for the spacebar?
I was trying to support Feng in his group buy. I try to help out the little guy as much as I can. But why should I buy 2 Aluminum spacebars for $25.00 each if Leopold won't allow me to use them?
> I would totally buy a FC700R. I love meh Leo.
I am glad that you are happy. :)
Please tell me when they make a keyboard with standard keys, or at least a keyboard with quality keycaps on it like all my keyboards from 1980s have. That means DyeSub or DoubleShot. When that happens I will seriously reconsider buying Leopold.
> If you want a keyboard purely for customization,
I do not want a keyboard for customization!
I want a good keyboard! That is all I ever wanted! I expect a keyboard with Dyesub or DoubleShot keys. Is that asking to much?
Nobody will make me a keyboard like that (that I found so far).
If I have to make it myself by hand then that is what I will do.
I am being forced to do customization in order to get a keyboard as good as my trusty old 1987 keyboards.
In the 1980s you just bought a keyboard without thinking about it. And it always worked. And it was in English. And you could read the letters. And the keycaps lasted forever. And all the keys were there, even a numeric keypad. And if the keyboard did not fit your computer you just bought a cheap little adapter and it would work. They just gave you Dyesub or Doubleshot keys, you did not have to ask for them or buy them separately for an extra $300.00
> then get a WASD. They are about to release some new TKL boards and you can even buy them without caps if you wish.
WASD is on my list of keyboards I am considering.
And I do require at least 1 keyboard with numeric keypad. Every keyboard I presently own has a numeric keypad. There isn't really a good excuse for not having any numeric keypad at all. I mean you can have an Fn key and overlay a numeric keypad onto the main keyboard. There are several keyboards that do that. It increases the printing cost somewhat because you have to print on the side of the keycap in addition to the top, at least that is how I have seen it done. But they get to save the cost of 17 keys. :/
The thing with WASD is that they only sell blank keycaps or lasered keycaps which is not what I want. I want Dyesub or Doubleshot. I prefer DoubleShot but I can settle for DyeSub.
I will certainly buy a bunch of their O-Rings so they will make some money off of me no matter what keyboard I buy. :cool:
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I want a good keyboard! That is all I ever wanted! I expect a keyboard with Dyesub or DoubleShot keys. Is that asking to much?
There are several good keyboards on the market. Whether or not they fit your particular needs has nothing to do with their quality. And evidently it IS asking too much, as most companies don't bother with doubleshot or dye-sub keys due to the manufacturing costs and not enough people care about them to make it worth their while.
In the 1980s you just bought a keyboard without thinking about it. And it always worked. And it was in English. And you could read the letters. And the keycaps lasted forever. And all the keys were there, even a numeric keypad. And if the keyboard did not fit your computer you just bought a cheap little adapter and it would work. They just gave you Dyesub or Doubleshot keys, you did not have to ask for them or buy them separately for an extra $300.00
True, but it's not the 80s anymore. Welcome to the future, where cheap manufacturing rules.
[...] There isn't really a good excuse for not having any numeric keypad at all. [...]
There are several, actually. Ergonomics, saving space, preference, etc...
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@TotalChaos — quick question: what do you need PS/2 for, anyway?
I don't know if you realise this, but a USB to PS/2 adapter is nothing but a plug, socket and some wires. Take one apart and see — they're ten a penny anyway. It doesn't do anything. It simply allows you to plug a USB keyboard into a PS/2 socket. The controller on the keyboard detects what you've done and switches over to PS/2 communication. (PS/2 normally has six pins, but two of them do nothing and some keyboard plugs actually have the two redundant pins missing. PS/2 and USB both use four conductors.)
This means that the keyboard controller needs to be specifically programmed to do all this. Since Topre keyboards are totally different to anything else on the market (they use capacitive sensing) and use completely custom controller circuitry, Topre didn't waste their time programming an obsolete keyboard protocol into their business hardware. Certainly not for the sake of obsessive gamers who swear that they need to press more than six non-modifiers at once. They are not Topre's market. Capacitive sensing is inherently N-key rollover, and Topre boards are all 6KRO over USB.
If you want Topre and must have PS/2, get an active USB to PS/2 converter. I guess they exist? If not, a forum member such as HaaTa or Soarer would be able to produce a bespoke converter for you.
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Tip of the hat to people who provide answers on the internet.
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If you want Topre and must have PS/2, get an active USB to PS/2 converter. I guess they exist?
If not, a forum member such as HaaTa or Soarer would be able to produce a bespoke converter for you.
I spent an hour looking around for these alleged converters.
Lots of other people have tried to find them before me.
No one has succeeded, apparently.
The general consensus is that they don't exist.
A lot of people say such a converter is not possible due to the fact that USB is wildly overcomplicated and obnoxious to deal with.
Here is one of the example threads, filled with stupid, useless comments and no solution was found. There is no reason to bother reading it.
http://www.overclock.net/t/988938/need-active-usb-keyboard-to-ps2-port-adapter (http://www.overclock.net/t/988938/need-active-usb-keyboard-to-ps2-port-adapter)
Furthermore if it was possible to use a Topre on a PS/2 port then EK would have told me about it when I asked them. If a $10.00 adapter would have solved the problem and he would have got a sale or 3 then he would have told me, right? Instead he told me Topres can't be made to work on PS/2.
Various people have made it clear to me that Topre does not want my money and they want me to give my money to Cherry Gmbh instead.
Btw I have read many hundreds of messages over the last couple of weeks written by Topre owners and none of them have ever claimed to have gotten a Topre to work on PS/2. Some of them can't even get their USB Topre to work on their USB Bios.
But if anyone out there does by some miracle know of a way to force a US Layout English Topre keyboard to work on industry-standard PS/2 ports then I wouldn't mind finding out how.
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Leopold is not the best because they go to great lengths and spare no expense wasting thousands of dollars to make nonstandard unreplaceable keys. If they supplied the keyboard with indestructible, perfectly smooth keys then I would not hold this against them so much. But, while their keys are "good" they are not "great" either so I would need to replace them, or modify them. I was just about to buy 2 Leopolds when I found out they had snuck a nonstandard spacebar into their new Keyboards. They have been using nonstandard spacebars for years but this new spacebar is even incompatible with their old spacebars. Ugh. I was about to buy 2 aluminum spacebars for $50.00 when I found out that Leopold doesn't want me to change my spacebar.
All my metal spacebars sholud work with leopold, I believe. But that's because I have a very nice Titanium 6-stem one. "universal" ones exist with some Leopold compatability. Still, this is one reason I have not ever purchased one, despite good-looknig quality and PBT keycaps.
Cherry is not the best because, like Leopold they think we should pay them extra money so they can design weirdo noncentered shiftlock keys. They have been shipping keyboards with nonstandard shiftlock keys for decades but their newest model, which I darn near almost bought, has a new noncentered shiftlock that is totally incompatible with their old noncentered shiftlocks. Why do keyboard companies keep wasting their time and money to design keys that nobody wants when the standard keys are free? They keys are on the shelf waiting to be put onto the keyboard but no, they have to make a new mold and make whole new weirdo keys just to prevent anyone from replacing their keycaps in a color-coordinated manner.
All my cherry keyboards have center stemmed fulltouch capslock keys. At this point, one has to wonder about what "standard" Cherry is breaking. You may note that the IBM Enhanced keyboard layout has a stepped capslock, that is closest to cherry's newest. Still, once again, I have only gone with 8*** series G80's for this reason.
Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 is not the best because it lacks actual cursor keys. In order to cursor around you must press an additional key. I find this annoying and antiergonomical. I found another one called the Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite 2 which has a much much improved layout with real cursor keys. So I could buy that one but oh wait, they added the cursor keys for me but then they ripped out the beautiful Topre switches and put in a rubber dome over membrane diabolically evil horrifically antiergonomical monster under the hood.
The japanese one has arrowkeys, but I understand why it's still not ideal.
It all these cases, I feel like you're just short of being correct, but also all your points are valid. They are similar to my own reasons for not having the keyboards you mention.
Other keyboards to look into:
WYSE PCE. WYSE has exactly one PS2 keyboard (and one DIN/AT keyboard). It's not been made in a while, but you might want to look it up.
CMstorm QFR / Filco TKL
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As far as "best" keyboards, more specifically ,no the "model F" idea, The "best" model F is the so-called "Space Unsaver", as it's a model F that's missing a tenkey. I have always wanted one. Still, to make it "perfect" you need to do some DIY. This is part of the appeal. Good luck finding one, though.
IN the DIY vein, I like all DIY keyboards, the ErgoDOX will be awesome. The Korean Customs looks awesome. The GH Phantom was awesome (though I still want a case). These are the best, IMO.
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I see TotalChaos's point. I think he just means in terms of customization. It's like a Honda Civic vs I dont know a Lotus Elise? Very different parts availability I suppose. It's whatever you want, nothing is necessarily "better" than the other. I mean, I just wanted LED backlit with custom features such as setting custom user profiles and stuff lol so my Ducky Shine 2 IMO is the best. Of course everyone is going to hate on me in a second but whatever. It's dope. ;D
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WTF?
You still haven't said why you need PS/2.
I also explained exactly why the $10 adapters don't work, and why Topre can't just click a finger and make it work.
Seriously, read before you rant.
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I also explained exactly why the $10 adapters don't work, and why Topre can't just click a finger and make it work.
Seriously, read before you rant.
You said:
If you want Topre and must have PS/2, get an active USB to PS/2 converter.
Active USB to PS/2 converters are all over the internet for under $10.00 and they do not work.
Seriously, read what you wrote before you rant.
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Active USB to PS/2 converters are all over the internet for under $10.00 and they do not work.
Seriously, read what you wrote before you rant.
You kidding me?
The $10 doobreys are not active adapters (called converters). They are passive adapters. They're just a plug, a socket and some wires [1 (http://www.shapeshifter.se/2009/07/07/diy-female-female-usb-adapter/)]. They don't do anything. The controller in the keyboard does all the work — keyboards that support passive adapters speak both USB and PS/2 and auto-detects how it's connected.
Topre keyboards don't have PS/2 support in the controller. You're asking Topre to completely reprogram their keyboard controller for you.
I did explain all this above.
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Just to be clear,
You are saying all these places that are advertising and selling Active USB to PS/2 Adapters for $10.00 are all lying, right?
https://www.google.com/search?q=active+usb+to+ps%2F2+converter&rlz=1C1CHMO_enUS479NL479&aq=f&oq=active+usb+&sugexp=chrome,mod=4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=active+usb+to+ps%2F2+converter&rlz=1C1CHMO_enUS479NL479&aq=f&oq=active+usb+&sugexp=chrome,mod=4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
You are saying that if they were selling what they were advertising that the adapter would have to cost $200.00, right ?
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The active converters are for connecting PS/2 keyboards and mice to USB ports on computers. (Note that converter vs adapter is possibly just Desktority terminology — adapter = passive, converter = active. It's confusing, I grant you.)
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Who cares about PS/2 anyway??? It's old and busted. For cripes sakes, even USB 2.0 is getting old.
I own a Realforce, a Leopold, a Filco, a Ducky, as well as made-in-USA oldies (Model M, Alps). I've used them. I can say that the highest manufacturing quality is probably IBM, but the Topre is easily superior.
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Hahah. PS/2 is ideal, but yeah it is getting outdated. I think Full or High-Speed USB is much better anyway at this point, but PS/2 will beat Low-speed, according to Soarer.
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This is really subjective, so don't just start recommending things randomly.
@OP: Have you tried anything yet? I would say start with a Cherry MX switch just to be safe, preferably the blues or browns. The first time I tried Topre (it was ergonomic key layout though instead of all 45g which I like better so it felt horrible as I play piano and I'm used to even pressure keys, mostly) I didn't like them but started liking them later on when I tried them again.
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This is really subjective, so don't just start recommending things randomly.
...this is why we recommend things...and no...we're not doing it randomly. We're heavily considering his needs and his desires and trying to match it up. What are you talking about? And it says OPINION on best keyboard, so we just pointed a few things out.
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I used to think PS2 is only for NKRO and I would never need that. But then I tested PS2 vs USB back to back on my Filco, and PS2 do feel faster.
So yes even though it's ever so slightly but PS2 do feel superior and I've switch back to PS2 ever since.
As for Leopold, if they want to sell as many keyboards as possible they should make it compatible to as many things as they can. Look at PC and Mac, people buy PC because it's cheaper and swapping parts is easily available.
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For your first mechanical keyboard, do it right get a RealForce 87U. You are crazy not to start with this one: http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se07ewv
Variable weighted keys, black-on-white PBT keycaps that you can actually see in low light, what moar could you want? This is a great foundation upon which to build a mighty collection. Oh and the price is phenomenal at $239 (USD). Don't be surprised if this keyboard changes your life.
I own this keyboard, and it's fantastic. The only one I like better in my collection is the variable-weighted silent RealForce 87U (in black): http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se170s.
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Yes, the silent version of 87U rocks.
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I can't see the price increase really being justified though.
I'll second the guy who said "do it right and get a RF 87U"
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Get a filco and mod it to Vintage Blacks :)
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I'm afraid I thought totalchaos was a troll and looked him up. Nope, not a troll.
I'm not quite sure how I feel about that.
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I'm afraid I thought totalchaos was a troll and looked him up. Nope, not a troll.
I'm not quite sure how I feel about that.
No, he's not a troll. He believes what he's saying. I feel for him — it's hard to find the Goldilocks keyboard. If there was a perfect keyboard I would just buy it and be happy! He's just a bit misguided and lacking in knowledge.
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Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 is not the best because it lacks actual cursor keys. In order to cursor around you must press an additional key. I find this annoying and antiergonomical. I found another one called the Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite 2 which has a much much improved layout with real cursor keys. So I could buy that one but oh wait, they added the cursor keys for me but then they ripped out the beautiful Topre switches and put in a rubber dome over membrane diabolically evil horrifically antiergonomical monster under the hood.
Totally agree with this. Even people who prefer using the Fn + [;'. keys for their cursor needs are accommodated by the Lite 2's layout. I guess you could argue the Pro2 is cooler looking if you go for the minimalist thing but if you are concerned about the board's utility there's no reason to require the extra finger work. I really *really* wish they would add Topre switches to the Lite 2.
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I didn't know where to post this, so it's going in here. I got my long awaited HHKB Pro 2 a few days ago and I am now absolutely hooked by the Topre switches.
My previously preferred switch type was the MX Red closely followed by Blues. I don't know how it is possible, but trying the Reds out today after a few days with my HHKB, I cannot stand them any more. The lack of a tactile feedback felt so "suffocating"; it felt like when you have a dry throat and you find it difficult to swallow your saliva. The lack of a tactile confirmation that I have hit a key had me almost clenching my teeth. The funny thing is, I never had such problem moving from the tactile Blue switch to the linear Reds. Like I said, the Reds were my favourite out of the two.
The Blues, although bearable due to the tactility, now feel gritty and plasticy in comparison. What has this board done to me! I was planning on putting together a collection of my favourite keyboards, and now I cannot stand my previous two favourite boards (both Filco's). :eek:
It looks like the only way to go for me is Topre from now on, unless Buckling Springs can match their solid feeling that is lacking for me in the Cherrys.
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I didn't know where to post this, so it's going in here. I got my long awaited HHKB Pro 2 a few days ago and I am now absolutely hooked by the Topre switches.
My previously preferred switch type was the MX Red closely followed by Blues. I don't know how it is possible, but trying the Reds out today after a few days with my HHKB, I cannot stand them any more. The lack of a tactile feedback felt so "suffocating"; it felt like when you have a dry throat and you find it difficult to swallow your saliva. The lack of a tactile confirmation that I have hit a key had me almost clenching my teeth. The funny thing is, I never had such problem moving from the tactile Blue switch to the linear Reds. Like I said, the Reds were my favourite out of the two.
The Blues, although bearable due to the tactility, now feel gritty and plasticy in comparison. What has this board done to me! I was planning on putting together a collection of my favourite keyboards, and now I cannot stand my previous two favourite boards (both Filco's). :eek:
It looks like the only way to go for me is Topre from now on, unless Buckling Springs can match their solid feeling that is lacking for me in the Cherrys.
So you're a rubber domes guy. nothing wrong with that.
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My personal favorite right now is a Ducky YotD. It is built incredibly solidly, and makes me never want to use another keyboard again. I've never used a Filco, however, so I don't know how much better it would be.
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I feel so bad for people that buy a Steel Series or a Razer Black Widow as their first keyboard. They just didn't know better and didn't know about the other options out their. Gotta give it to SS and Razer though with their marketing efforts. You never see Filco or Ducky advertising in Esports or anything.
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I suppose I'd be more comfortable with spending dough on a Topre if I could try one first. Many forum members appear to be selling/swapping models with different key weights, and this just adds to the apparent pall of fussiness and dissatisfaction here. There seems to be a pea hidden somewhere under the Topre mattress and I think it may be due to switch factors such as lack of durability (of its tactile qualities) and the overall lack of precision in regards to weight (+/- 20g if I recall one post correctly).
FWIW, it seems no one who got a QuietPro and wrote about it has dissed the MQP's key weighting. In fact, I don't think any reviewer yet has said 'Its not for me' or even fallen short of strong praise. Instead, it is eliciting more of a 'I want this thing in front of me every day from now on' kind of response that is very consistent. On top of that, demand for the MQP has surged past Matias' expectations and there is the fact that having a new key switch engineered in North America come on the market is just plain exciting (keycap aficionados notwithstanding, though I hope that will change).
Cherry-based boards never impressed me very much. I think if their switches had been better then I would have cared back in the 90s when RDs were replacing mechanical: Cherry was too blah and linear, ALPS too noisy (never got to use a rare dampened board) and BS both too fatiguing and too noisy (I used BS for years at work). With the nice tactility and quality of the early RDs, its no wonder mechanical got quickly pushed to the far margins of the market.
So I am dying to try out both the Topre and Matias Quiet switches, but I have an informed hunch the latter will win me over for the long term. My minimum requirement of TKL is the only thing preventing me from buying an MQP at this point, but at least I do have a small ALPS board into which I can put Matias switches for a pittance and a few hours of my time (or I can just wait for Matias' leaked 75% model).
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I didn't know where to post this, so it's going in here. I got my long awaited HHKB Pro 2 a few days ago and I am now absolutely hooked by the Topre switches.
My previously preferred switch type was the MX Red closely followed by Blues. I don't know how it is possible, but trying the Reds out today after a few days with my HHKB, I cannot stand them any more. The lack of a tactile feedback felt so "suffocating"; it felt like when you have a dry throat and you find it difficult to swallow your saliva. The lack of a tactile confirmation that I have hit a key had me almost clenching my teeth. The funny thing is, I never had such problem moving from the tactile Blue switch to the linear Reds. Like I said, the Reds were my favourite out of the two.
The Blues, although bearable due to the tactility, now feel gritty and plasticy in comparison. What has this board done to me! I was planning on putting together a collection of my favourite keyboards, and now I cannot stand my previous two favourite boards (both Filco's). :eek:
It looks like the only way to go for me is Topre from now on, unless Buckling Springs can match their solid feeling that is lacking for me in the Cherrys.
So you're a rubber domes guy. nothing wrong with that.
I'm a "what feels best to me" kind of guy, and my dissatisfaction with your ordinary rubber-dome keyboards is what lead me to mechanical keyboards in the first place. I don't care what the mechanism is, as long as it is well made and feels solid under my fingers while giving me good feedback and doesn't hinder my productivity. It's just that these Topre's seem to have raised the bar for me in every regard compared to the Cherry's I've tried, and I understand that it is personal preference, but the solid "thock" and buttery smooth key travel as well as the better keycaps have made the switches on my Filco's feel like toys in comparison.
There is a draw back though, and that is the ridiculous price tag, but then there isn't anything else quite like it out there. My wallet sure ain't looking forward to the next time I have an itch for a new keyboard and I've already got my eyes on a Realforce Tenkeyless 55g. :'(
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The MX switches are like toys, in my limited experience. Trying out the browns after my scissor/dome apple keyboard, the plasticy bump was appalling.
So I went down to Fry's and tried the various Cherry switches. I more-or-less fell for the blues, because they are so much crisper than the browns.
But I used to use a buckling spring keyboard, and it has its charms, for sure. Loud, hard to bottom out, bouncy. And cheap!
It's tough, though, finding the "right" keyboard. I'd like a backlit one, but almost all the companies put the symbols (the most important part) beneath the number, so they aren't well illuminated. The ones that do the lettering right are Deck, which only has clear switches in tactile (WHY?) and the new Noppoo. But the Noppoo isn't Mac-compatible (WHY?). At least the Ducky has DIP switches...
I tried the Rosewill RK-9100BR and it was fine, to the extent of my knowledge. There was an issue with the spacebar making a clicking noise, but the switches are mounted to a metal plate and everything seemed in order. And it's $50 less than the Ducky. It's out of stock, but it's what I'm looking at. And I've never understood why the Race/Pokers were so popular... PCB mounted? ¿Que?
So the best keyboard for me is likely the Rosewill RK-9100. I may "settle" for the CM Storm QuickTrigger Whatever TKL with the Blues and the backlight that just came out ($90), or "splurge" on a Ducky Shine II.
But these probably aren't the best keyboards for anyone else, in general. Frankly, listening to some of the gamers, I think they'd be best off just getting a membrane board with NKRO! So it's hard to think about these issues when the hype gets going. Hopefully exposure to my "process" will help others formulate theirs.
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I suppose I'd be more comfortable with spending dough on a Topre if I could try one first. Many forum members appear to be selling/swapping models with different key weights, and this just adds to the apparent pall of fussiness and dissatisfaction here. There seems to be a pea hidden somewhere under the Topre mattress and I think it may be due to switch factors such as lack of durability (of its tactile qualities) and the overall lack of precision in regards to weight (+/- 20g if I recall one post correctly).
FWIW, it seems no one who got a QuietPro and wrote about it has dissed the MQP's key weighting. In fact, I don't think any reviewer yet has said 'Its not for me' or even fallen short of strong praise. Instead, it is eliciting more of a 'I want this thing in front of me every day from now on' kind of response that is very consistent.
So I am dying to try out both the Topre and Matias Quiet switches, but I have an informed hunch the latter will win me over for the long term. My minimum requirement of TKL is the only thing preventing me from buying an MQP at this point, but at least I do have a small ALPS board into which I can put Matias switches for a pittance and a few hours of my time (or I can just wait for Matias' leaked 75% model).
It sounds like you do not want to like Topre even before you've tried it...No point in reading about it and then rationalizing reasons you should dislike it.
I definitely want to try the Matias Quiet as well (have they said they're making a TKL? If so that would be great). I have seen a couple of reviews where they weren't impressed by it...But for the most part, I don't care what they thought...If the switches sound right, they feel like Alps switches but with a bit more stability and they're modified to be a bit more reliable..I think that's a great thing. I'm just waiting for a TKL and hopefully PBT cap version and I'm all over it..
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It sounds like you do not want to like Topre even before you've tried it...No point in reading about it and then rationalizing reasons you should dislike it.
Rationalizing involves taking irrelevant excuses and elevating them to the level of a well-supported and accepted position. So the question is whether the consistency and longevity complaints I've read over the past year are irrelevant.
Having paid attention to how most people expend far more mental effort (and verbosity) talking themselves into wanting new things than they do cautioning themselves against reckless spending, I think ruminating on doubts about a $300 keyboard is healthy and warranted.
I want Topre to be good/great because the keyboard market got so bad for a while that having a better keyboard available for just about *any* price is better than nothing. OTOH, it is eminently rational to want to like a $300 product less than one that sells for $150 (or one that was bought for $20 and upgraded for less than $60).
What my thoughts on the matter boil down to is that the more expensive keyboard may not be 'all that', and how glad I am that a (hopefully) well-engineered alternative has shown up at a lower price point.
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Rationalizing involves taking irrelevant excuses and elevating them to the level of a well-supported and accepted position. So the question is whether the consistency and longevity complaints I've read over the past year are irrelevant.
I'm sure some of them are irrelevant..and people ARE picky..especially when they're given options. People love their keyboard until something else comes along. They love X color Cherry switch until they get bored and Y is the new favorite color. Did anything change? Not really...
And I'm not disagreeing that you would want to like the cheaper one...I would too. In many ways I think Topres are a bit expensive for what they are...expensive for what you get....and especially if you hadn't tried one, I certainly wouldn't consider dropping 300 on it unless I hated everything else and I was desperate. OTOH, I do think they represent something quite enjoyable to use and a different experience than what you're getting from most other keyboards...
Anyways, back to the real important part of my post...Did you say Matias is coming out with a TKL Quiet Pro?
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Anyways, back to the real important part of my post...Did you say Matias is coming out with a TKL Quiet Pro?
Matias compact bluetooth keyboard at FCC (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38289)
:D
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I'm not sure I want a bluetooth keyboard..but would love to see this cabled and PC :). I actually think the layout is great..
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Excuse me people, cake or pie?
OP: Congratulations you've just masterfully trolled geekhack whether you meant to or not.
For what its worth my favorite after trying Cherry Red, Blue, Brown, Black, Buckling Spring, Topre Variable, Silent Variable, 45g Uniform, and Alps Green is the Topre 45g uniform 87u, Your mileage will vary massively and honestly you're unlikely to find your favorite switches on your first try. I would definitely consider starting with the Cherry MX Blue switches if you don't mind the noise as most people tend to like them. There are better switches for many situations but you might want to learn what you like and don't like first.
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The cake is a lie!
MX blues are fantastic for typing, and custom keycaps are easy to find. Blues also work for gaming, if the activation/release point situation does not bother you.
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Mmm, thinking about my experience with the iRocks keyboards, I realized that they were both dusty inside the box; I looked back at my pictures of the inside of the RK-9100 and realized it had dust inside.
So now I'm leaning towards the KeyCool 87... except I'm worried about buying from China in case there's a problem. Had a horrible experience with a Korean monitor and don't want a repeat...
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Topre Realforce all-45g TKL
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I feel so bad for people that buy a Steel Series or a Razer Black Widow as their first keyboard. They just didn't know better and didn't know about the other options out their. Gotta give it to SS and Razer though with their marketing efforts. You never see Filco or Ducky advertising in Esports or anything.
bought my 7G long before any other brands were available i believe it was the first mechanical "gaming" board
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Topre Realforce!