They have the HHKB in Type-S as well if you can stomach it... :P
They have the HHKB in Type-S as well if you can stomach it... :P
What do you mean by that? I have been curious about those S-Type joints.
Although, I must say that typing on the HHKB is the best experience I've ever had.
Here's my argument against HHKB...
That advantage of a $300-400 keyboard is purely psychological, a "collectors" mentality and NOT of ANY PRACTICAL use.
The main issue is that the modern computer keyboard interface has peaked in terms of improvements. Yes you can add upon it infinity, but as is, ANY keyboard well exceeds our capacity to utilize them.
I have tried Topre boards before. While they are nice, Cherry MX are also very likable and I don't the have extra money to invest in a board I don't desperately desire for I don't have high income. That being said, I don't think it is worth going harsh on people who criticize either cherry MX or Topre. They are nice in their own way and which one one choose to hate is purely a matter of personal opinion and preference.
Be there peace on this forum.
This isn't an issue of subjectivity. I have no problem if someone prefers a Cherry MX board over Topre board. A lot of people do, and there is absolutely no problem with that. What I'm having issues with is the mis-information, the flat-out lies that are being told by people, who have never owned Topre boards before!
You can't criticize Topre board engineering, or lack thereof, when you haven't owned one before. You can't say, "oh, gosh, Topre boards are just a giant rip-off, because they are just like rubber dome boards", when you haven't owned one before. This is people literally making stuff up. And, THAT bothers me.
This isn't an issue of subjectivity. I have no problem if someone prefers a Cherry MX board over Topre board. A lot of people do, and there is absolutely no problem with that. What I'm having issues with is the mis-information, the flat-out lies that are being told by people, who have never owned Topre boards before!
You can't criticize Topre board engineering, or lack thereof, when you haven't owned one before. You can't say, "oh, gosh, Topre boards are just a giant rip-off, because they are just like rubber dome boards", when you haven't owned one before. This is people literally making stuff up. And, THAT bothers me.
Again, not worth being offended. Just enjoy what you own.
I'm bothered by people who keep spreading lies and mis-information. There's a big difference there.
I'm bothered by people who keep spreading lies and mis-information. There's a big difference there.
Don't worry about that either. I bet people are mostly put off by the price to start with.
People who are really inclined to get one would do enough research so that their own judgements can be as subjective and truthful as possible.
In my experience, Topre keyboard build quality is miles above any Costar based board (including Filco boards). I have absolutely no problem saying they are 1.5x to 2.0x better built than a Filco board.
The same goes for the Topre switches. They are smoother, and they have less wobble, all of which indicate higher quality than Cherry MX switches. This, personally, has led me to type more accurately, which in turn, has given me higher average WPMs, than I got with Cherry keyboards. So, it's not just an issue of how the keyboard feels; you are actually getting concrete benefits out of owning a Topre board. It is far easier to type accurately on these boards.
In my experience, Topre keyboard build quality is miles above any Costar based board (including Filco boards). I have absolutely no problem saying they are 1.5x to 2.0x better built than a Filco board.
The same goes for the Topre switches. They are smoother, and they have less wobble, all of which indicate higher quality than Cherry MX switches. This, personally, has led me to type more accurately, which in turn, has given me higher average WPMs, than I got with Cherry keyboards. So, it's not just an issue of how the keyboard feels; you are actually getting concrete benefits out of owning a Topre board. It is far easier to type accurately on these boards.
How do you quantify "quality"? And what conditions makes it exactly 1.5 times higher quality? It's like you're throwing out random numbers.
So you're telling us the slight wobble in the keys from MX switches makes your typing less accurate? And you lose typing speed when the keys "wobble"? You lose credibility when you make these kind of claims. But if somehow this is true, then you need to work on your typing habits. It's not the keyboard.
Another assumption you made is my motive. No need to get defensive so easily. I'm not here to insult you, just questioning the validity of your claims because it's too biased. But if you interpret it the wrong way and get offended, so be it. I'll just let you continue to be the knight in shining armor for Mrs. Topre.
I've typed on a topre before, not sure why you would assume I haven't. But I haven't gotten the chance to open one up though. The overall quality is a subjective matter that you're trying to shoehorn into a random number. Outer aesthetics is just one aspect, but you also need to open it up to look at the insides. Check the electronics components chosen (by OEM or manufacturer) because these vary in quality and specs, look at assembly and soldering, etc. And you said it yourself, the 1.5x number is just an intuitive guess.
Your claim of higher typing speeds as a result of less wobble sounds like snake oil. The amount of wobble on a MX switch is extremely little, relative to how big the keys and your fingers are. You're saying that that amount of wobble is enough for you to miss the keypress? Even if you purposely type on the edge of the keys, I don't see this happening.
You're saying that that amount of wobble is enough for you to miss the keypress? Even if you purposely type on the edge of the keys, I don't see this happening.
I thought keyboardlover was bad enough, this is something else. lol, but i bet other senior members might have seen worse.
I'm just saying... I find it funny, that people who have never owned Topre boards, are the ones criticizing them. :)That is the same statement Topre owners brings out every time whenever someone criticize Topre. Topre fans sure like to bring out the sour grape argument.
That is the same statement Topre owners brings out every time whenever someone criticize Topre. Topre fans sure like to bring out the sour grape argument.Excuse me, but have YOU ever owned a Topre board? :P
HHKB. Best. Layout. Ever.
So what's the Chevy of keyboards?
So what's the Chevy of keyboards?
alps? haha
Here's my argument against HHKB...
That advantage of a $300-400 keyboard is purely psychological, a "collectors" mentality and NOT of ANY PRACTICAL use.
You're much better off spending your money on a cherry mechanical, the quickfire rapids, and use the rest of the cash for something "actually useful" like a porn subscription, or a new graphics card.
The main issue is that the modern computer keyboard interface has peaked in terms of improvements. Yes you can add upon it infinity, but as is, ANY keyboard well exceeds our capacity to utilize them.
Making the step to Mechanical has some immediately tangible effects such as increased key press consistency and precision..
Making the step from Mechanical to "Expensive Mechanical" does NOT produce any such gains...
Whatever people "claim" that Topre has done for them, is a culmination of Stockholm syndrome, effort justification, and confirmation bias. :p
So what's the Chevy of keyboards?
alps? haha
Excuse me, but have YOU ever owned a Topre board? :PTopre is more like Lexus to me in that analogy.
I'm gonna bust out a car analogy cause I like cars.
rubber dome : Cherry MX : Topre
Toyota : Mercedes : Rolls-Royce
Big leap in quality from the first to the second for a understandable price difference.
Marginal increase in quality from the second to the third for a pretty extreme price difference.
I'm just saying... I find it funny, that people who have never owned Topre boards, are the ones criticizing them. :)That is the same statement Topre owners brings out every time whenever someone criticize Topre. Topre fans sure like to bring out the sour grape argument.
Topre is more like Lexus to me in that analogy.
^^Exactly. They're nicely built rubber domes, hence why I think they're Lexus.
^^Exactly. They're nicely built rubber domes, hence why I think they're Lexus. Before you equate rubber domes with membrane boards, try some older PCB based rubber domes. It is rubber dome over membrane that suck. And yes, I do own a 104u variable and HHKB2Pro.
Only German worth buying is M and AMG. Owned both. Prefer English sportscars.
Let me see pics with your written username next to the keyboards. :pWhat do you think those plungers do? They push down and collapse rubber domes. There are plenty of separate plunger based membrane boards. It is not why Topre feel the way they do. They use a poppy rubber domes on a PCB (please ignore the 5g force spring). It is fine you like it and all, but you're making it sound like something it is not. Spade is a spade, no matter how well or how it is made. Remind me of an argument I had with a girl about whether flavored water is water.
But, it doesn't matter anyway. No matter what you say, I will never see Topres as merely "nicely built rubber domes". The boards themselves are of far higher build quality than Filco/Costar boards. The implementation of the rubber is WAY different than typical rubber domes; ie. there are actual springs underneath each cone that gives it a much different action than typical rubber domes. Topres also have actual stems that move up and down, which give it a much smoother action that rubber domes; whereas with rubber domes, your keys are literally pushing on and trying to collapse a rubber dome. And the way the switches are built indicate MUCH better quality than any switch, rubber dome or Cherry MX.
For me, the moment I opened the box, and pressed a few keys on a Topre, I knew they were completely different than rubber domes. There was no second guessing. It didn't take me a few days to "think about it", or "get used to it". The difference was noticeable immediately.
I think the end results matter more, not what's under the hood or how much it cost. (I'd think rubber dome over membrane is more like the Flintstone car in that case).
Lexus are a lot more for not much more car. Rolls are at least made by master craftsman.
I'm just saying... I find it funny, that people who have never owned Topre boards, are the ones criticizing them. :)That is the same statement Topre owners brings out every time whenever someone criticize Topre. Topre fans sure like to bring out the sour grape argument.
Uh... apparently not, because it appears to be true? Did you read this thread? I asked two dudes, rootwyrm, and t4ptissue, if they have owned Topre boards before, and they haven't replied, which probably means no, they haven't owned Topre boards before.
^-^
I don't know what to say, bro. It ain't sour grapes if it's true!
And... you still haven't answered khaangaaroo's question. Have you owned a Topre board before?
Is the price worth it in any of these cases? Always debatable. They all can do the same basic function. They just feel different.
It all depends on your preferences, how much money you have, and how you like to spend it.
Topre is great and all, but I think I prefer buying Rolls-Royces.
WellSaid rootwyrm.
I see that OP scored jdcarpe's HHKB Pro JP from the classifieds section here. Congrats and welcome to the world of Topre! I personally prefer Realforces, but if I were to give the HHKB layout a try, the Pro JP with the arrow keys would be my first pick. I hope you like it OP.
P.S. Ya I might of restarted it, sorry. I just can't take it when people are complaining about how Realforces are $300 when they are being sold elsewhere in the world for less than $250.
Congratulations on failing reading comprehension 101 there, guys. No, seriously. It takes mad skills to be so completely oblivious to my opening paragraph wherein I disclosed I previously owned an HHKB Sun. Again: HHKB Sun. As in for sun4d and early sun4u systems. (Anyone wanna price check that? I shudder to think - especially since that one was very carefully taken care of so we didn't have to lug around Type4's.)Not trying to start something, but HHKB were membrane boards until Professional came out.
But, if you're going by how well built Topres are built on the outside in general... it's going to be pretty easy to intuit that the electronics inside will probably be just as good.
Remember you can connect every PS/2 keyboard and every PS/2 mouse to a USB device with a simple adapter.Actually, not so simple.
...
Lets talk about the quality of the elctronics inside a Topre.
All keyboards built since at least 1980s have a cpu, RAM, ROM, etc. They have a little computer in there that interprets the keypresses and sends the right signals to your desktop computer.
The computer in the keyboard runs a program. This computer and its software is commonly referred to as "the controller". (- True enough, although a little misleading)
The Topre "controller" is complete crap (- opinion). It is much much worse (- opinion) than many free keyboards I dug out of the garbage.
Their controller is so awful(- opinion) that it cannot even work with a simple PS/2 adapter like millions of other keyboards do(- fact, although "cannot" should be replaced with "does not", as it was a conscious decision to not support PS/2)
Those are facts(- not all of them) . Not an "opinion". Not a "feeling". Not an "intuition". (- some of them are)
Furthermore, when I read reports of people not being able to use their keyboards in BIOS, normally I just assume that their BIOS sux. But since I already know that the Topre keyboard controller is deficient(- opinion) it makes me wonder if the USB packets being sent are not somehow buggy? I will never know what the Topre USB problem with some people's BIOS is. (- then how, logically, can you feel qualified to make the assumption that it IS a problem with Topre boards?) But I do know that the Topre problem with PS/2 (- once again, not a problem. A choice not to support it.) is entirely Topre's fault and no one elses. (- true enough)
According to the net, Topre has been making keyboards for at least 12 years. And in 12 years they never fixed their controller software. (- It works as intended. How is that broken?)
Remember, the best way to connect a keyboard to a computer is PS/2. (- completely subjective opinion. Personally, I couldn't get rid of PS/2 fast enough.)
Remember you can connect every PS/2 keyboard and every PS/2 mouse to a USB device with a simple adapter.( - not entirely accurate)
But you cannot connect any USB keyboard/mouse to a PS/2 device with a simple adapter unless that USB device has a properly written controller inside it.( - true enough)
What a product looks like on the outside has nothing to do with what it is like on the inside.
What do you think those plungers do? They push down and collapse rubber domes. There are plenty of separate plunger based membrane boards. It is not why Topre feel the way they do. They use a poppy rubber domes on a PCB (please ignore the 5g force spring). It is fine you like it and all, but you're making it sound like something it is not. Spade is a spade, no matter how well or how it is made. Remind me of an argument I had with a girl about whether flavored water is water.
There is an ongoing disagreement within the keyboard community whether this switch should be categorized as "mechanical", as "rubber dome" or even as "semi-mechanical". Some of this controversy might be based on disagreement whether the categorization should be based on the switch's construction (there being a rubber dome inside it vs. there being a metal spring inside it -- the Topre switch having both) or by some of its properties (crisp, light feel and mid-stroke actuation point) being different from typical rubber-dome keyboards.
The switch's rubber dome does provide most of its resistance and all of the tactile feel, but unlike typical rubber dome keyboards, the rubber dome in the Topre switch does not provide any "mushy" resistance near the bottom of the stroke. The conical spring provides only around 5 cN of actuation force and is therefore a critical component only for sensing key presses.
Here's a neat little excerpt from the deskthority wiki that describes the Topre switch pretty well (from http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch):QuoteThere is an ongoing disagreement within the keyboard community whether this switch should be categorized as "mechanical", as "rubber dome" or even as "semi-mechanical". Some of this controversy might be based on disagreement whether the categorization should be based on the switch's construction (there being a rubber dome inside it vs. there being a metal spring inside it -- the Topre switch having both) or by some of its properties (crisp, light feel and mid-stroke actuation point) being different from typical rubber-dome keyboards.
The switch's rubber dome does provide most of its resistance and all of the tactile feel, but unlike typical rubber dome keyboards, the rubber dome in the Topre switch does not provide any "mushy" resistance near the bottom of the stroke. The conical spring provides only around 5 cN of actuation force and is therefore a critical component only for sensing key presses.
THANK YOU. AND GOOD NIGHT!
ROFL!
Lets talk about the quality of the elctronics inside a Topre.
All keyboards built since at least 1980s have a cpu, RAM, ROM, etc. They have a little computer in there that interprets the keypresses and sends the right signals to your desktop computer.
The computer in the keyboard runs a program. This computer and its software is commonly referred to as "the controller".
The Topre "controller" is complete crap. It is much much worse than many free keyboards I dug out of the garbage.
Their controller is so awful that it cannot even work with a simple PS/2 adapter like millions of other keyboards do.
Those are facts. Not an "opinion". Not a "feeling". Not an "intuition".
Furthermore, when I read reports of people not being able to use their keyboards in BIOS, normally I just assume that their BIOS sux. But since I already know that the Topre keyboard controller is deficient it makes me wonder if the USB packets being sent are not somehow buggy? I will never know what the Topre USB problem with some people's BIOS is. But I do know that the Topre problem with PS/2 is entirely Topre's fault and no one elses.
According to the net, Topre has been making keyboards for at least 12 years. And in 12 years they never fixed their controller software.
Remember, the best way to connect a keyboard to a computer is PS/2.
Remember you can connect every PS/2 keyboard and every PS/2 mouse to a USB device with a simple adapter.
But you cannot connect any USB keyboard/mouse to a PS/2 device with a simple adapter unless that USB device has a properly written controller inside it.
What a product looks like on the outside has nothing to do with what it is like on the inside.
The highlighted part above is Complete Bull****, and you know it......
Topre feels EXACTLY like rubber dome.. The only difference being it is more precise in terms of actuation.. THAT's it... It is top tier rubber dome....
The ferrari of Rubber domes,, FINE,, call it whatever you like... Being made from Rubber, and in a shape of a DOME is an inherent **** property that cannot be overcome... :eek:
The highlighted part above is Complete Bull****, and you know it......
Topre feels EXACTLY like rubber dome.. The only difference being it is more precise in terms of actuation.. THAT's it... It is top tier rubber dome....
The ferrari of Rubber domes,, FINE,, call it whatever you like... Being made from Rubber, and in a shape of a DOME is an inherent **** property that cannot be overcome... :eek:
I'm afraid he doesn't, because its not BS and what your saying is closer to BS though you probably don't realize it.
First of all, a rubber dome can never feel like a Topre because the spring does contribute to its feeling. In fact according to the patent, the spring is the main contributor to the upwards force after pressing the switch.
Secondly, the dome is specifically shaped with varying thickness along its sides to produce a different more tactile feeling that can be accomplished by domes, once again this is part of the patent and its even considered a specific embodiment of the switch
If you want to look it up, its (Column 7, Lines 27-32 and Column 5, Lines 12-43 respectively in the patent).
Do all Topre owners/advocates foam at the mouth so much?
:p :D
This thread makes me proud as a Topre owner. ;)
Paroyxsm
1. a fit, attack, or sudden increase or recurrence of symptoms (as of a disease) : convulsion <a paroxysm of coughing>
2. a sudden violent emotion or action : outburst <a paroxysm of rage>
Well it's not inane :) Might help some other person like myself who's surfing for helpful info and thinking of stumping up the readies for a RF board and wants to read to intelligent comment rather that crass drivel :) Admittedly, few will ever see my input here at the bottom of this thread full of partially informed inflammatory tirades.
Well it's not inane :) Might help some other person like myself who's surfing for helpful info and thinking of stumping up the readies for a RF board and wants to read to intelligent comment rather that crass drivel :) Admittedly, few will ever see my input here at the bottom of this thread full of partially informed inflammatory tirades.
didn't you know that well-written, thoughtful posts are inane and the only ones of value are those which mindlessly parrot memetic neologisms and various other popular culture feedstock
+1Well it's not inane :) Might help some other person like myself who's surfing for helpful info and thinking of stumping up the readies for a RF board and wants to read to intelligent comment rather that crass drivel :) Admittedly, few will ever see my input here at the bottom of this thread full of partially informed inflammatory tirades.
didn't you know that well-written, thoughtful posts are inane and the only ones of value are those which mindlessly parrot memetic neologisms and various other popular culture feedstock
And you never admit that you are just trying to boost your post count.But to my credit I did attempt to follow that admission with a somewhat meaningful narrative :)
Topre circlejerk...? O_oPlease forgive my ignorance of these matters, could you please elucidate as to whether that's that a helpful suggestion to make the RF better or a Pavlovian response to a Topre thread? :)
And you never admit that you are just trying to boost your post count.But to my credit I did attempt to follow that admission with a somewhat meaningful narrative :)
Evil is afoot.No, no. Rules text and flavor text are in Times Roman on the old cards; only the card name is in Goudy Mediaeval.
HHKB. Best. Layout. Ever. Nevermind the haters.
Also, topre is just smooth. Like typing on boobies.
HHKB. Best. Layout. Ever. Nevermind the haters.
Also, topre is just smooth. Like typing on boobies.
Mmmm, boobies. Yeah this sounds about right! On a side note, where's my wife........ :p
HHKB. Best. Layout. Ever. Nevermind the haters.
Also, topre is just smooth. Like typing on boobies.
Mmmm, boobies. Yeah this sounds about right! On a side note, where's my wife........ :p
Hhkb is fantastic. If you want portability look no further. Mine fits in my laptop bag with ease alongside a mouse, mousepad, smart card reader, and a few different cables.
If you have any sort of finger dexterity and coordination it will be easy to adjust. Took me a few minutes to adjust. The combos come naturally and feel great.
If you had any keyboard lust early on for a keyboard do yourself a favor and just get one. It was the first board I drooled over and I ended up getting two Leopolds in mx blue and browns. After I got my hhkb pro 2 in black blank I sold my Leo boards. They felt like crud afterwards.Show Image(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/13/da7edyra.jpg)
Hhkb is fantastic. If you want portability look no further. Mine fits in my laptop bag with ease alongside a mouse, mousepad, smart card reader, and a few different cables.
If you have any sort of finger dexterity and coordination it will be easy to adjust. Took me a few minutes to adjust. The combos come naturally and feel great.
If you had any keyboard lust early on for a keyboard do yourself a favor and just get one. It was the first board I drooled over and I ended up getting two Leopolds in mx blue and browns. After I got my hhkb pro 2 in black blank I sold my Leo boards. They felt like crud afterwards.Show Image(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/13/da7edyra.jpg)
So would you say that it feels like an upscale brown?
Collapsing blocks of clay. Closest mx that I've used are browns (red brown blue are all mx I've onwed). They have a thock sound and no clickyness. The collapsing clay is the tactile feel. I hear ergo clears mx is even closer to topre.
Exactly. And yes, now that I think about it, Ergo clears feel WAY more like 45g Topres than anything else.
No. The activation point on Topre's is a completely independent mechanism from the tactility. But to be sure, lemme plugin my HHKB in and test...
Yup. You can ride the activation point. However, it's pretty much right in the stiff resistance point of the downstroke, so you'll probably feel the tactile bump a few times. However, it being 45g (on the HHKB at least), it shouldn't make a difference.
You know I play moba and press it so fast already that I don't perceive any benefit from riding activation point. For reference I type at about 120wpm.
I'm not an amazing moba player though. Mainly Arams on lol.
You know I play moba and press it so fast already that I don't perceive any benefit from riding activation point. For reference I type at about 120wpm.
I'm not an amazing moba player though. Mainly Arams on lol.
Well, in my case, I play BF3 and spam the spot (q) button alot. Especially when there's smoke. That's mainly what I was talking about.