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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Gildyr on Wed, 21 November 2012, 11:56:36
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Hello all!
I've been looking at getting my first mechanical keyboard, and would like to get the quietest possible keys. I've read articles saying that both Cherry Red and Cherry Brown are pretty quiet, but is there any consensus on which is quieter?
Thanks
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Actually, Brown, Red and Black have a similar amount of noise, which is actually created by the keycap hitting the bottom of the key, not really the keyswitch itself.
If you want something quieter, rather than choosing in between Red/Brown/Black, just get some o-rings and choose whichever one you like.
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Thanks, that's good to know.
I don't know which switch I really want, though. The only switch I've been able to try so far is Blue, and I know I don't want that. Leaning towards Cherry Red, but I play games and I don't want to bump keys accidentally. Is that really a danger with Red switches?
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Red with O-ring
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Reds don't have anymore chance of accidental press than brown really. They are only a few cN difference. Reds feel a lot nicer in my opinion though, nice and smooth.
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The noise from all of the non-clicky cherry switches is caused by stem contracting the bottom and top surfaces inside the switch casing. So in other words, there is no difference in sound between these switches because the only difference is the slider. If you take a brown switch, and purposefully limit the range of motion in a way that you are pressing it down only far enough to allow the leaf spring to slide over the bump on the slider rails, but not bottom out in either direction, you will notice that it is completely silent. One could argue that the bump alters the force with which the stem contacts the casing on the upstroke, but it is negligible. A similar case could be made from blacks vs reds, since they use a different spring, which would alter the force with which these two surfaces collide. Ultimately, most of the difference in sound comes from the construction of the keyboard and the keycaps, because these affect how all of the sounds resonate.
Again though, it's literally unnoticeable compared to the rest of the clattering going on in the meantime. As others have mentioned, the best way to limit the sound of the board is to use O-rings or landing pads. There are guides for this if you search. The only downside is that these work only on the downstroke, and won't affect the clattering sound of the upstroke.
Another option is the Matias Quiet Pro. This board uses a special silent but tactile switch that is based on Simplified Alps. I've yet to try one, but I have heard nothing but positive things about it and it is on my short wish list of keyboards :)
Hope that helps.
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If you can type poperly already, reds will be very nice when you get used to them. I would recomend reds with pbc mount. Least noise from cherry I think. With a lot if cherrys you can hear the springs compress. You are probablu not worried about that. If you plan on trying all the switches. I'd get blacks, browns, then reds. My browns are louder mostly due to the keycaps and the plate.
Oh and I dont bottom out my reds. I would say red is more comfortable. Browns my be more of the gaming switch.
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if we look at it from a room that is really quiet (i keep my room this way) then reds/blacks are quieter than browns if neither go to bottoming out. there is a slight sound in browns that produces that tactile feel, more like the pressured scrapping against the tactile bump that is not there for linear.
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Thanks so much, this is really helpful. I'm definitely interested in the Matias board - in addition to being quiet it's also got sculpted keys. :)
I'm weighing that one or a Rosewill Red (RK-9000RE), since that's on sale on Amazon right now. Both are a lot to pay for a keyboard, but I definitely need to get something better than this generic Dell or my hands are going to rebel.
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Membrane ;) keys arw nice out of the box but if you want them to continue feeling nice you are going to want to replace them often dependong on how much you use them.
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Reds don't have anymore chance of accidental press than brown really. They are only a few cN difference. Reds feel a lot nicer in my opinion though, nice and smooth.
Yeah I have been wondering about this. Some people say Reds are noticeably lighter than browns despite being the same cN rating.
Maybe I'll buy the WASD sampler to find out.
BTW Do heavier keycaps make the switches feel lighter? I would think that they have a slight effect.
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Check the Matias Quiet Pro. Their support seems awesome, the feedback I've seen for the keyboard is quite nice, the PCB looks quite well made and it's quite quiet.
Plus, its USB HUBs are well made and well designed.
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Bear in mind that as great as the WASD sampler kit is, pressnig a single key switch that you are holding in your hand is quite different to actually typing on a keyboard with that switch.
if you do though, make sure you put a key cap on it, and clamp it in a vice or something to simulate plate or PCB mounting.
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Since I don't bottom out much and I use o-ring, most of the noise is actually coming form the key upstroke. I can't find a way to reduce that noise.
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Check the Matias Quiet Pro. Their support seems awesome, the feedback I've seen for the keyboard is quite nice, the PCB looks quite well made and it's quite quiet.
Plus, its USB HUBs are well made and well designed.
I can +1 this. They are the most quiet stand alone mechanical switch. Great feedback but for gaming I would feel reds/browns would be a better choice. I like both reds and browns.
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Bear in mind that as great as the WASD sampler kit is, pressnig a single key switch that you are holding in your hand is quite different to actually typing on a keyboard with that switch.
if you do though, make sure you put a key cap on it, and clamp it in a vice or something to simulate plate or PCB mounting.
Yeah, I thought about doing something similar. Good idea though.
I also like that O-rings are included because I am not sure if I would like reduced key travel.
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It feels a bit odd, but with the thinner rings isn't too bad. I put sampler kit O-rings on my M abd N keys which I press repeatedly in the early hours of the morning checking my email while everyone else is still asleep. There is a fairly significant reduction in noise.
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Check the Matias Quiet Pro. Their support seems awesome, the feedback I've seen for the keyboard is quite nice, the PCB looks quite well made and it's quite quiet.
Plus, its USB HUBs are well made and well designed.
I can +1 this. They are the most quiet stand alone mechanical switch. Great feedback but for gaming I would feel reds/browns would be a better choice. I like both reds and browns.
+2 for the QP.
I'm a gamer - The QP performs well at fast repetitive abuse of the same keys. No worries.
Some hard core gamers will say red is the new black and it's the only way to go...
I have Black, Brown, Clear and QP.. The QP is the quietest of all.
Especially at gaming when you keep your fingers on the same keys.
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Personally I find red quieter than brown actually.
So to my knowledge (Loudest to Quietest): ALPS > Buckling Spring > Cherry Blue > Cherry Brown > Cherry Red > Cherry Black > Matias Quiet Pro > Rubber Dome > Topre > Scissor Switch
Obviously there's exceptions but this is what I find in general applications.
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So to my knowledge (Loudest to Quietest): ALPS > Buckling Spring > Cherry Blue > Cherry Brown > Cherry Red > Cherry Black > Matias Quiet Pro > Rubber Dome > Topre > Scissor Switch
Like your chart ;D
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I'm not sure I'd rate scissors as most silent, my gf <clomps> away on a Logitech Illuminated right next to me and it's not as quiet as my o-ring modded MX Reds. I guess the noise from releasing the keys on the MX Reds can be a bit higher pitched, but not louder.
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Like your chart ;D
lol thanks !!! I'm glad I got it right even though I actually haven't used half of those keyboards LOL.
I'm not sure I'd rate scissors as most silent, my gf <clomps> away on a Logitech Illuminated right next to me and it's not as quiet as my o-ring modded MX Reds. I guess the noise from releasing the keys on the MX Reds can be a bit higher pitched, but not louder.
I didn't really include o-ring in this chart. But as for Logitech Illuminated, I think typing sounds might vary from people to people and how hard you smashed your keys. Last time I tried Logitech Illuminated I remember it being really quiet during regular typing :)
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sounds like what we need are one-way keyswitches that can only be pressed down.
i'm going to type my way to the center of the earth!
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Reds don't have anymore chance of accidental press than brown really. They are only a few cN difference. Reds feel a lot nicer in my opinion though, nice and smooth.
Yeah I have been wondering about this. Some people say Reds are noticeably lighter than browns despite being the same cN rating.
Maybe I'll buy the WASD sampler to find out.
BTW Do heavier keycaps make the switches feel lighter? I would think that they have a slight effect.
As for these questions, first off, a heavier key does make pressing the key easier. It also makes the key coming back up slower, however. Why is this the case? Well, the key provides a weight force, which is determined by F = m*a. a = 9.8 m/s^2 and thus mass is the only thing that changes this. So, increasing mass would lower the actuation force since you already provide more actuation force than a stock key with the extra weight on top. Try taping a penny to your escape key and see what it does. I noticed this when I installed my Zinc silver Esc key.
As for stiffness, I'm almost certain the Reds are lighter than Browns. The reason being is because despite the Actuation Force being the same, the force required to continue the travel of the plunger varies from switch to switch.
Take a look at this table, provided by WASD. Its a Force vs Displacement graph. As you can notice, the slopes are not flat, meaning that the force required (whether linear or tactile) to fully depress the plunger must increase as the displacement is increased, as for the linear switches.
(http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/media/guide/graph-mx-brown.jpg)
This is a graph of the Reds.
(http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/media/guide/graph-mx-red.jpg)
Reds are completely linear, but as still expected, still goes up in force, due to spring compression. This is true for all switches in general.
As for the work required, the way to do this is to find the area under the Force vs Displacement curve. That will give you work done in terms of joules (energy).
If you do it carefully, you'll notice the Browns have slightly more space under the curve. This proves that the Browns will actually require more work to BOTTOM OUT. However, to find the work required to just actuate, you have to find actuation point, stop the graph there and find the work required there. It seems from a rough estimate it still is the Browns that require more work to actuate as well, since the graph shows that the actuation points are at about 1.9-2.0mm of displacement.
Remember to pay attention to the top lines, as this is the line that shows the pressing of the key, whereas the 2nd line shows the key coming back up.
As for the noise, it really depends on how you type. If you mash the keys pretty hard and bottom out constantly, then Reds will probably be louder. I do remember when I tried out a Brown keyboard that the keys didn't slam the bottom as hard due to the resistance provided by the tactile bump. If you can train yourself not to bottom out at all, then Reds will be quieter and easier to type on. It's all subjective from here on out, and personally I love my Reds because well I can control myself well and I don't need that tactile feel (after a while you can get a feel for actuation. On my Ducky Shine II, there is a reactive mode where an LED turns on only when the switch is actuated, so I really can get a feel for it like that). Ultimately it's up to you. I love my keys super smooth and felt like the Browns were a rough Red with sand in it, but that's just my 2 cents. I hope I didn't offend anyone, but after the smoothness of a linear key, to me its either Red or Blue. Red for me because of games.
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I didn't really include o-ring in this chart. But as for Logitech Illuminated, I think typing sounds might vary from people to people and how hard you smashed your keys. Last time I tried Logitech Illuminated I remember it being really quiet during regular typing :)
It is pretty silent, but yes, I'd say noise levels are more dependent on typing style than switch in a lot of cases. Sound profile, however, is very distinct from different switch types, but not always for different variations.
A chart based upon different switches' sound profiles would be much more interesting and objectively defineable.
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They would do that, but its going to be impossible to produce consistent results. The amount of noise produced will come mainly from several factors, those being if you bottom out or not, and what speed you type at (or more precisely what speed your finger engages the key at). Unfortunately these are user varied and vary across a rather large range, so the graphs would be inaccurate and contain too much error.
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I didn't really include o-ring in this chart. But as for Logitech Illuminated, I think typing sounds might vary from people to people and how hard you smashed your keys. Last time I tried Logitech Illuminated I remember it being really quiet during regular typing :)
It is pretty silent, but yes, I'd say noise levels are more dependent on typing style than switch in a lot of cases. Sound profile, however, is very distinct from different switch types, but not always for different variations.
A chart based upon different switches' sound profiles would be much more interesting and objectively defineable.
At that point, the sound is going to depend a lot more on which model keyboard you are using than what switch is in that keyboard (assuming we're not talking about blues vs brown/red/black)
The thickness and material used for the keycaps, case, plate, pcb, etc. Is going to play a big role.
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At that point, the sound is going to depend a lot more on which model keyboard you are using than what switch is in that keyboard (assuming we're not talking about blues vs brown/red/black)
The thickness and material used for the keycaps, case, plate, pcb, etc. Is going to play a big role.
That's true, but for a majority of switches+variants you can isolate the switch by removing them. You won't get you real-world results, but there are too many variables to objectivly say "This is louder than that.".
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The thickness and material used for the keycaps, case, plate, pcb, etc. Is going to play a big role.
I find this especially true for MX Red. Red's sound is heavily dependant on keycap material/thickness ...etc, but for tactile switch like MX Blue the keycap has less effect.
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The thickness and material used for the keycaps, case, plate, pcb, etc. Is going to play a big role.
I find this especially true for MX Red. Red's sound is heavily dependant on keycap material/thickness ...etc, but for tactile switch like MX Blue the keycap has less effect.
Of course, keycaps have huge impact on the feel, but sound? I'm not so sure. I've just tried different¹ key caps on my Noppo Choc Mini (plate-mounted Cherry MX Red switches, the keyboard itself was on a SteelSeries QCK+ to reduce deep resonations of wooden table/tray), and difference was rather hard to notice. Unfortunately, I can't record it because I don't have a phantom cable to power the microphone at the moment.
¹ thick POM from the Noppoo itself, Cherry DS, thin OEM-profile ABS key caps taken from SteelSeries 6Gv2, thin ABS key caps from a vintage chicony
However, I have to admit there might be some difference (sometimes) — for example Tt Meka (Cherry MX Black) with original keycaps was almost silent, but when I tried to use it with Cherry doubleshots, and bottomed-out very aggressively, typing was almost unbearable because of the noise.
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ABS <-> PBT caps are like night and day in the way they sound.
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Would you say PBT sounds deeper or lighter?
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Deeper (less like when you play with lego).
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Got s couplr PBTs. They are nice. I neeed to get a set soon.
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Leaning towards Cherry Red, but I play games and I don't want to bump keys accidentally. Is that really a danger with Red switches?
No.
I have never accidentally pressed a key with my Cherry Reds. They are plenty stiff enough. You must command your finger to intentionally press the key down or nothing is going to happen. A lot of other keyboards are just waaaaay overly stiff.
Just put 40a O-rings under each keycap to suppress the noise and you are good to go. You can even buy a WASD keyboard with the O-rings preinstalled. Costs more but the keyboard is obviously higher quality than Rosewill.
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Leaning towards Cherry Red, but I play games and I don't want to bump keys accidentally. Is that really a danger with Red switches?
No.
I have never accidentally pressed a key with my Cherry Reds. They are plenty stiff enough. You must command your finger to intentionally press the key down or nothing is going to happen. A lot of other keyboards are just waaaaay overly stiff.
Just put 40a O-rings under each keycap to suppress the noise and you are good to go. You can even buy a WASD keyboard with the O-rings preinstalled. Costs more but the keyboard is obviously higher quality than Rosewill.
Yeah, O-rings will help more than anything else. I'd say reds are quieter though, but just barely.
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reds sounds like nothing if you don't bottom out.
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There's a few different sounds: key actuation, bottoming out, and key release. Bottoming out can be dealt with with o-rings, but key release noise can still be a problem. Different keycap material may help with this...
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Nope no sound... only sound would be the sound of the springs creaking I guess, but they go away after broken in, and the sound of spacebars, enters, etc.
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TheQsanity, please, can you record it (if you have suitable equipment)? My experience has been quite the opposite, so I'm interested in whatever kind of magic you're using.
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The sound is more of a swoosh I guess. Maybe I just don't notice it lolz.
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The sound is more of a swoosh I guess. Maybe I just don't notice it lolz.
hehehe he types so fast, the sound waves of the upstroke cancel out the sound waves of the downstroke. All that is left is a swooshy sound. :p