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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: ranunky on Wed, 28 November 2012, 19:48:02
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Which is better?
Dvorak:
All the vowels are on the left therefore faster
Colemak:
zxcv unchanged for copy & paste
BUT: Autohotkey can allow *all* QWERTY to be used with Dvorak. Has Colemak any recourse?
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Has Colemak any recourse?
Yes... Autohotkey. :)
I have never used Dvorak, but the relative merits of different layouts have gotten a lot of recent attention on sites like carpalx and colemak.com. According to this page (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak) Dvorak requires over 13% more effort than Colemak.
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If I was going to learn a new one, I'd choose Colemak
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I learned Dvorak already, but decided that Colemak has all the efficiencies of Dvorak, and then some. I'm basically going to learn Colemak again because I need the basic hotkeys in QWERTY.
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Colemak FTW!
http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ#What.27s_wrong_with_the_Dvorak_layout.3F
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Dvorak = hand alternation. I hate alternation. Therefore, I use Colemak. Rolls are much sexier.
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Check this out http://www.workmanlayout.com/blog/
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I'm basically going to learn Colemak again because I need the basic hotkeys in QWERTY.
BUT: Autohotkey can allow *all* QWERTY to be used with Dvorak. Has Colemak any recourse?
Download and install Autohotkey. http://www.autohotkey.com/
Set the keyboard to QWERTY in Windows, and use this script (http://www.autohotkey.com/board/topic/25093-mac-style-dvorak-qwerty-command-layout-switcher-for-windows/page__st__15#entry202226) to change to Dvorak. It swaps all the keys but leaves all the shortcuts it the same place.
(Post #1 on that thread will work, but the post I linked to, post #16 by 'Igor' works better). The great thing about this script is that you can compile it as an exe and carry it on a USB drive and run it on any computer you want.
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Check this out http://www.workmanlayout.com/blog/
That's an interesting layout and read. I've never thought about using other layouts seriously, but I am interested in others' thoughts.
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I used Colemak over the summer for awhile and really liked it. Having zxcv in the same place was nice, and my hands didn't feel as tired after typing (though I was only typing around 20-30wpm with Colemak compared to 60wpm under QWERTY so the speed issue could've definitely factored in). I foolishly fell back into my old QWERTY ways though :( I swear I'll stick with it next time though!
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Check this out http://www.workmanlayout.com/blog/
Whoah intense stuff.
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Why does the workman guy keep going on and on about his wrist moving when typing G or H on qwerty?
Wrist moving? My wrist sits in the same place when I strike G or H. My fingers do the moving. He keeps talking about hand shifting. What hand shifting? Why are his hands moving all over the keyboard???
My hands stay in the same place unless reaching for the numbers or }] or Scroll Lock or cursor keys.
Sure, internally there is a tiny bit of pressure in my wrist when striking G or H but there is always pressure in your wrist no matter what key you press.
This Workman guy either has very very very tiny hands or he has tendonitis which he got from something else other than pressing G and H.
As for me, I am in horrible pain and I want more keys in between G and H.
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Shai had a rebuttal of sorts to the Workman concept on the Colemak forum.
While I agree with the idea of enhancing the weighting for the middle fingers, that is the only thing of value that I see in Workman. Telling people they need to move their hands laterally to press G and H positions wasn't too bright.
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I asked myself this very question, when I picked. I had decided that I didn't like QWERTY, and needed a new layout (in 2007). Eventually, I went with Dvorak, as it's nearly the same efficiency as colemak, and it's ideologically completely different than QWERTY. Although Colemak tests out pretty well for the numbers, I don't like how it's based on QWERTY, which I see as flawed. I wanted something new, not just a polishing of the corrupt institution.
Although keeping the ZXCV seems to have little impact on the efficiency or comfort of a layout, I wonder that the placement of the punctuation marks has an impact. This is an aspect of Dvorak that is oft-overlooked (and indeed oft-overlooked in many optimized layouts). They put their tests on a word list, and often ignore puncuation. I believe that moving them is probably beneficial, and thus, I like Dvorak.
Dvorak also has excellent OS support, which is useful. I'd never be allowed to install colemak at work, but they are okay with me switching the keyboard layout on my account with Dvorak. Even android 4.1 (Jellybean) has Dvorak support, though right now I'm putting up with QWERTY until ATT rolls out an update for my phone.
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I asked myself this very question, when I picked. I had decided that I didn't like QWERTY, and needed a new layout (in 2007). Eventually, I went with Dvorak, as it's nearly the same efficiency as colemak, and it's ideologically completely different than QWERTY. Although Colemak tests out pretty well for the numbers, I don't like how it's based on QWERTY, which I see as flawed. I wanted something new, not just a polishing of the corrupt institution.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Although keeping the ZXCV seems to have little impact on the efficiency or comfort of a layout, I wonder that the placement of the punctuation marks has an impact. This is an aspect of Dvorak that is oft-overlooked (and indeed oft-overlooked in many optimized layouts). They put their tests on a word list, and often ignore puncuation. I believe that moving them is probably beneficial, and thus, I like Dvorak.
This might be a good point. However, I've checked the Czech National Corpus, and punctuation isn't all that common. Sure, it's in every sentence, but that's it. I'm more worried about parenthesis, correct typographic symbols etc., which led me to creation of an extra layer that moves those symbols to better positions for me, thumb modifier + key close to home row combos are easier than keys all over the place.
Dvorak also has excellent OS support, which is useful. I'd never be allowed to install colemak at work, but they are okay with me switching the keyboard layout on my account with Dvorak. Even android 4.1 (Jellybean) has Dvorak support, though right now I'm putting up with QWERTY until ATT rolls out an update for my phone.
Actually, I don't see any reason to use Dvorak on compact devices except if I wanted to type with both thumbs _only_. Because of alternation, obviously. I wonder why OPTI isn't more popular.
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Which is better?
Dvorak:
All the vowels are on the left therefore faster
Colemak:
zxcv unchanged for copy & paste
BUT: Autohotkey can allow *all* QWERTY to be used with Dvorak. Has Colemak any recourse?
I've been trying out both, and I can say good things about each. Colemak is easier coming from QWERTY and seems a good middle of the road. I'd like to think of it as QWERTY fixed.
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Why does the workman guy keep going on and on about his wrist moving when typing G or H on qwerty?
Wrist moving? My wrist sits in the same place when I strike G or H. My fingers do the moving. He keeps talking about hand shifting. What hand shifting? Why are his hands moving all over the keyboard???
My hands stay in the same place unless reaching for the numbers or }] or Scroll Lock or cursor keys.
Sure, internally there is a tiny bit of pressure in my wrist when striking G or H but there is always pressure in your wrist no matter what key you press.
This Workman guy either has very very very tiny hands or he has tendonitis which he got from something else other than pressing G and H.
As for me, I am in horrible pain and I want more keys in between G and H.
Probably a combination of small hands and poor typing technique. I have really long fingers, which is probably why my hands have never hurt after 15 years of typing day in and day out. I type completely relaxed, and can reach pretty much every key without moving my palms at all, except for things like R Control and BackSpace.
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Having type with QWERTY since Nixon was president, I am pretty well ingrained in the old school.
I am intrigued with several ideas bouncing around, and would go to Colemak if I was living in isolation.
However, since I maintain multiple computers for multiple people, I have to keep my head in their game, at least some of the time. It is bad enough having to work on garbage keyboards!
PS - I don't know why some people complain bout staggered keys - I think that it is helpful for avoiding bogus extra characters.
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PS - I don't know why some people complain bout staggered keys - I think that it is helpful for avoiding bogus extra characters.
Have you ever used a matrix keyboard? B and Y are much easier to reach.
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Ok I just did a BY test with my horribly painful hands on my QWERTY MX REDs. (Of course my arms are frozen solid, soaking in dental anesthetic all day long and my bloodstream is packed with all kinds of drugs).
Y: no problem
B: ow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trying to type B without moving my wrist just aint happening. If I just lift all fingers up and rotate my wrist a bit then b is no problem to just type it here or there. Obviously if I typed a lot it might become a problem but I can only type a maximum of 1% of a random geekhacker before my pain does me in. So I only type tiny amounts.
This wrist-rotate I do is very small. It would be even less if I did it for GH. But this makes me think that the guy who cooked up Workman has nerve problems like me. Or maybe he has tendonitis in his G & H fingers or maybe some type of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. Or something.
The finger you use to type H would be your mouse-button finger if you are right handed. So he might have tendonitis in that finger and the reason he has it in both hands is from Mirror-Image pain. Yes mirror-image pain is a real thing and common enough to have been studied and documented. I have it too so I know its real.
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I chose Colemak as I didn't want to take so much time to switch over as Colemak took me three weeks anyway! Those writing tests told me Colemak was the right one for me. I can't really say I like it better than QWERTY. I don't think I am faster, and I never really had any discomfort. But I am very happy my brain was able to make the switch and will not go back ever. It is very comfortable to type and fun with Colemak. :)
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I chose Colemak as I didn't want to take so much time to switch over as Colemak took me three weeks anyway! Those writing tests told me Colemak was the right one for me. I can't really say I like it better than QWERTY. I don't think I am faster, and I never really had any discomfort. But I am very happy my brain was able to make the switch and will not go back ever. It is very comfortable to type and fun with Colemak. :)
I don't feel the need to pound the keyboard anymore and it is starting to get pretty natural for me and I've only been using it for a couple of days. The biggest tangible difference to me seems to be how much less I move my hands.
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If you don't code and only ever type in english (and don't want to get into the whole remapping characters thing), you should probably go with Colemak.
I think most of the programmers really appreciate the upper row punctuation placement on Dvorak and the compatability with VIM.
And although I completely unlearned QWERTY when I switched to Dvorak, it only took about 1 day of regular use to relearn QWERTY one year later and it's no issue to keep the two separate, so I don't see switching to QWERTY from time to time as a real problem.
Just keep in mind you won't become a faster typist by using an ergonomic layout, switching is all about comfort.
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But I am very happy my brain was able to make the switch and will not go back ever. It is very comfortable to type and fun with Colemak. :)
I love a story with a happy ending. Yay! :)
As for me, I am in wayyyy to much pain to learn a new format so I am stuck with qwerty forever... at least until I can build myself a proper ergonomic keyboard... which will prob take forever... I feel stuck in a loop...
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As for me, I am in wayyyy to much pain to learn a new format so I am stuck with qwerty forever... at least until I can build myself a proper ergonomic keyboard... which will prob take forever... I feel stuck in a loop...
(http://colemak.com/wiki/images/8/80/Colemak_layout_2.png)
Awww, go ahead... print the image above, try it out for an hour when you don't have any pressing work to do. If you start slowly there should be no additional pain... Colemak is designed to relieve stress.
:) :) :)
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How long did it take u to make the switch to colemak?
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How long did it take u to make the switch to colemak?
I did QWERTY by day, Colemak by night (15 minutes doing online lessons before going to bed) for two weeks. After another two weeks completely without Colemak, I went cold turkey. The first month wasn't exactly easy (~30 wpm @ 90 % accuracy, I should had practiced more), but I was slowly progressing without any issues (most people have crisis around the third week), my progress followed the logarithmic function, I reached 55 wpm @ 98 % accuracy after six months.
However, most good typists convert much faster, some reach ~100 wpm in one or two months.
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How long did it take u to make the switch to colemak?
It was tougher for me because I didn't know touch typing at all; On Qwerty I was all hunt and peck at about 45-50WPM. Now after 9 months I'm at about 60-70WPM and much more accurate at 97%. At six months I was barely at 45.
I've been comparing other people's experiences moving to Colemak with my own, and I'd say the better a touch typist you already are, the quicker and easier the move is to Colemak. Experience works in your favor, not against. Most people who already did over 60WPM touch typing seem to have put in 1/3 the time and effort I did.
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I'd love to learn an alternate layout, thinkin about the Workman layout. His argument for it's use by software developers is compelling
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Yes, I've been thinking about a developer-centric layout for a while. Thanks for posting this.
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I'd love to learn an alternate layout, thinkin about the Workman layout. His argument for it's use by software developers is compelling
If only it was better supported. That's the nice thing about Colemak, comes with pretty much all Linux distributions. IDK, it seems to me that Workman is just a sidestep from Colemak as opposed to truly better. Both are significantly better than QWERTY and Dvorak though.
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If only it was better supported. That's the nice thing about Colemak, comes with pretty much all Linux distributions. IDK, it seems to me that Workman is just a sidestep from Colemak as opposed to truly better. Both are significantly better than QWERTY and Dvorak though.
It's all about your average workflow. Most of the combinations I find myself typing while developing are slightly awkward in Colemak, as the Workman guy said. To each their own though. Also, I agree that most things are better than qwerty.
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Up to 26 WPM from 20 this morning :D
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This site gives some metrics that give a strong case for colemak.
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives)
The L in Dvorak and the moving of ZXCV, which is a huge pain for the kind of programing I have do, are the main reasons I will not switch to Dvorak. In the process of learning Colemak right now. The incremental improvements over Colemak they talk about on the Carpalx site don't really seem like that big of deal to me. You get that big improvement over qwerty with Colemak by moving only 17 keys and keeping the ZXCV group as well as it being a standard.
Shai, the creator of Colemak's response to Workman:
The Workman layout is a layout that tries to gain a few extra percents of optimizing one factor, while completely neglecting other factors.
1. The layout doesn't maintain ZXCV in the same location. e.g. if you're working with different windows that have different keyboard layouts, it means you can't reliably copy and paste between windows. This also ignores the strong motor memory of these shortcuts. It makes it harder to learn, and more difficult if you're switching back and forth between layouts.
2. The layout moves more keys around, more keys move hands, they move further away. Many of the ease of learning elements in Colemak have been ignored.
3. Same finger is mostly ignored. It's quite bad on the ring fingers which aren't dexterous. You'll see people who complained in the forum about the same-finger of the WR/RW same-finger digraph on the ring finger in Colemak. Compare it to the PO/OP digraph on Workman which is an order of magnitude more common. Same-finger aren't a big deal in the beginning, but they become very problematic with high speed typing as they break the flow of typing.
4. Shift-Capslock is escape, which means that if you're typing words in uppercase by holding the shift, you can't make corrections without releasing and repressing the shift key, which is very annoying.
5. By optimizing for combos, it allows for quite long sequences of the same hand. Colemak IMO has a better balance between combos and hand alternation.
6. It has more row jumping than Colemak.
7. The letter D, which is the 10th most frequent letter in English gets a bad placement on the ring finger off the home row.
8. The research is based on a small corpus of six books, which skews all the statistics.
9. The author claims to be "Workman is now stable and better than before. There will be no more changes after October 3, 2010". There hasn't been any feedback yet from long-term users (I doubt even the author has used it for long), and it still has design flaws which means that either it will be changed again, or the flaws will be ignored.
10. The author claims "Typing HE [on Colemak] forced the hand to make a very unnatural sideways twisting motion from the wrist and then back again". If you're twisting your wrists while typing, you're doing it wrong. Again the layout was optimized for the TH combo, while ignoring other typing statistics.
11. A project that only exists as a blog post, and doesn't even have it's own webpage doesn't inspire too much respect, or demonstrates any investment from the author.
I've added it to the list of alternatives layouts, but I think there are better ones out there.
http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=939 (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=939)
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Man, this stuff can get to *nix/windows/mac level religious
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Up to 30 WPM from 26 yesterday :D
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10. The author claims "Typing HE [on Colemak] forced the hand to make a very unnatural sideways twisting motion from the wrist and then back again". If you're twisting your wrists while typing, you're doing it wrong. Again the layout was optimized for the TH combo, while ignoring other typing statistics.
That is why I have no interest in workman. Either the author is playing a prank on the world or he has a very serious medical condition.
If he has tendonitis in his (QWERTY) G & H fingers then I sympathize with him a lot. But I don't feel that a whole keyboard layout should be based on getting tendonitis in that specific finger.
Ok it is your mouse finger so I guess it is the easiest finger to get tendonitis in. It is even how my whole horrible hand pain problem started. But then you would have to be unlucky enough to get mirror image pain. Ok I got that too. But I am like the unluckiest person in the world.
I am always open minded and if someone brings facts to light that optimizing for tendonitis in G & H fingers is a good idea then I shall happily reconsider.
But for now I like Colemak the best. XCV FTW! :)
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Which is better?
Considering the fact that QWERTY was specifically conceived to SLOW YOUR WPM DOWN ..
ANYTHING ELSE is better !
QWERTY was created to prevent 'jamming' . If you don't get what I mean :
Look at a mechanical typewriter !!
That's right : Our PC-keyboard-layout is dictated by mechanical engineering requirements !
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This site gives some metrics that give a strong case for colemak.
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives)
The L in Dvorak and the moving of ZXCV, which is a huge pain for the kind of programing I have do, are the main reasons I will not switch to Dvorak. In the process of learning Colemak right now. The incremental improvements over Colemak they talk about on the Carpalx site don't really seem like that big of deal to me. You get that big improvement over qwerty with Colemak by moving only 17 keys and keeping the ZXCV group as well as it being a standard.
Shai, the creator of Colemak's response to Workman:
The Workman layout is a layout that tries to gain a few extra percents of optimizing one factor, while completely neglecting other factors.
1. The layout doesn't maintain ZXCV in the same location. e.g. if you're working with different windows that have different keyboard layouts, it means you can't reliably copy and paste between windows. This also ignores the strong motor memory of these shortcuts. It makes it harder to learn, and more difficult if you're switching back and forth between layouts.
2. The layout moves more keys around, more keys move hands, they move further away. Many of the ease of learning elements in Colemak have been ignored.
3. Same finger is mostly ignored. It's quite bad on the ring fingers which aren't dexterous. You'll see people who complained in the forum about the same-finger of the WR/RW same-finger digraph on the ring finger in Colemak. Compare it to the PO/OP digraph on Workman which is an order of magnitude more common. Same-finger aren't a big deal in the beginning, but they become very problematic with high speed typing as they break the flow of typing.
4. Shift-Capslock is escape, which means that if you're typing words in uppercase by holding the shift, you can't make corrections without releasing and repressing the shift key, which is very annoying.
5. By optimizing for combos, it allows for quite long sequences of the same hand. Colemak IMO has a better balance between combos and hand alternation.
6. It has more row jumping than Colemak.
7. The letter D, which is the 10th most frequent letter in English gets a bad placement on the ring finger off the home row.
8. The research is based on a small corpus of six books, which skews all the statistics.
9. The author claims to be "Workman is now stable and better than before. There will be no more changes after October 3, 2010". There hasn't been any feedback yet from long-term users (I doubt even the author has used it for long), and it still has design flaws which means that either it will be changed again, or the flaws will be ignored.
10. The author claims "Typing HE [on Colemak] forced the hand to make a very unnatural sideways twisting motion from the wrist and then back again". If you're twisting your wrists while typing, you're doing it wrong. Again the layout was optimized for the TH combo, while ignoring other typing statistics.
11. A project that only exists as a blog post, and doesn't even have it's own webpage doesn't inspire too much respect, or demonstrates any investment from the author.
I've added it to the list of alternatives layouts, but I think there are better ones out there.
http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=939 (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=939)
Allow me to address some of these points with Philosophy.
1. I see this as a highly-used but bad argument for a keyboard layout. Exhibiting the is-ought problem, I see the world as a nominalist would: I don't sacrifice ideals for some measure of gained utility from tradition. ZXCV should not be put where they are (or moved) based on a prior effort, or because you used to do tings that way. This is also why I don't find the "not broke -> don't fix it" statement to be valid at all. Everything is broken, and there is room for improvement everywhere. We must always strive to find (define) and achieve the ideal of perfection. Muscles can be re-learned easily, and ALT-INSERT, etc shortcuts work great. In linux, I don't even need the keyboard to copy/paste.
2. Once again, I think that keeping a number of keys similar to QWERTY just to achieve more similarity is wrong. Having incidental similarly placed keys (like A and M) is okay, provided that similar placement is not the goal. I am also a non-consequentialist.
3. I'm more worried about comfort than speed of typing (I'd learn steno/chording if I wanted speed) but this point (of preference) is a good one. This is a valid reason to choose colemak over workman. (I don't begrudge other's epistemology, as I believe that meta-epistemology to be impossible)
4. Valid point, but I see this as more of a macro issue than a layout one. No keyboard layout should be considered based on the macros (when comparing keyboard layouts: you can compare them if you want to compare your whole autohotkey setup or whatever). If this is the case with workman, then they have handily included suggestions for more than just a layout. (I try not to compare across-levels: Some things should be considered as incommensurable) I mean, you can set up (or disable) similar things in any layout.
5. I strongly agree: Hand alteration is important, hence why I chose Dvorak. One note: Hand alteration is not always good. I sometimes will reverse two letters in a word more commonly in Dvorak than QWERTY, I believe it's due to a different amount of hand alternation combined with my psycho/physiological expectations. (I am willing to consider that my position is not perfect, and might have some flaws)
6. I don't know what this is (I'll freely admit it. Now let me just look it up...)
7. I don't think you can compare layouts based on a single letter placement. That's gotta be a fallacy or something.
8. This smells like FUD. I would rather make a scientific claim with good data on both sides when trying to invalidate someone else's experiments.
9. All the [legitimate] design flaws points out thus far are pretty much just opinions. If the workman person considers his layout "perfect" then he is wrong. One must always be trying to improve (trying to see possible ways to make it better)
10. This is the first time he's mentioned his take on the layout being optimized for TH/HE, so I don't think his use of "again" is really justified. Still that's really splitting hairs. I looked up colemak and I don't see how you would twist your hand at all to type TH on it, Still, TH is much easier on Dvorak. :p
11. This is completely a terrible argument. Just because an ideas comes from a "lowborn" source, does not make it invalid. Ideas, and hypotheses stand and fall on their own. Look into the principle of supercooling: which was first suggested by a student, and dismissed by many scientists, yet his observation was still valid, even though his results weren't published in a journal. I don't care if I see a new keyboard layout on the back of a napkin, that will not disqualify it from being a good or bad idea. It might not "inspire respect" but that's not the point of analysis, or decision making. I don't "respect" anything based on it's outward appearance. I will make my judgment and decision (and later, respect) based on the qualities of the idea in question. Also, you cannot tell by just a blog post what sort of investment an author has made into a work. I can, for example, Test a layout for decades all by myself without telling anyone, and put it up on GH here. There is (nor sholud there be) and indication of the time investment I have made before going public. I am fairly certain that any position tying to find "investment level" from method of publication will be difficult-to-impossible to describe (rendering it meaningless. You'll just patch holes over your weak ideology) or self-inconsistent.
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Finally, if colemak works for you, then more power to you! I am glad to see it. Since nothing is really perfect, the pros and cons of anything will mean that it is better for some than others. For some people Dvorak is best, for others: colemak. I prefer Dvorak for philosophical reasons, and am considering switching to Qgmlwb (or similar).
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Up to 30 WPM from 26 yesterday :D
Did you get to 45 yet? That's where Typeracer says you're a Pro. :D
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Up to 30 WPM from 26 yesterday :D
Did you get to 45 yet? That's where Typeracer says you're a Pro. :D
No, close but here is the problem. I am at 36 WPM right now in Colemak, but it is really effecting my QWERTY speed, so I may need to take a break for a while. I don't know... Any suggestions? I mean I really like Colemak better, but I can't let it effect my QWERTY speed too much more. Although, by the end of this post, I am feeling better about my QWERTY speed. Mind****ed. Okay, I took a few minutes out through this post to check, takes about 10 minutes to comfortably switch between the two. I think I can live with that.
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Carry ur Colemak keyboard around with you so you never hafta switch back to Qwerty.
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Carry ur Colemak keyboard around with you so you never hafta switch back to Qwerty.
It is Colemak in software, not hardware, that would be useless. LOL
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WASD is releasing a hardware Colemak (or Dvorak) keyboard in 3 months.
It has a switch you to set for Qwerty, Colemak or Dvorak.
That way u can use it on ANY computer without changing any keymap settings in the OS.
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WASD is releasing a hardware Colemak (or Dvorak) keyboard in 3 months.
It has a switch you to set for Qwerty, Colemak or Dvorak.
That way u can use it on ANY computer without changing any keymap settings in the OS.
Wow, that sounds pretty cool. It would be quite useful depending on the size.
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I would probably learn either Colemak or Dvorak (or at least try,) but everything at my school is Qwerty. I don't want to confuse myself. Besides, I type fairly well on Qwerty. Mad props to people who use an alternate layout in this Qwerty-centric world, though :-)
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You can run colemak on school computers/work computers without installing any software using autohotkey or portable keyboard layout. I put these programs on my USB drive and just run the exe files when I'm using Colemak. I actually have Dvorak too on the same portable keyboard program so that it cycles when I do ctrl+alt hotkey.
http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=Windows
There's links to the portable layout and autohotkey downloads on the colemak website.
I don't actually use Dvorak anymore, however, since I found while I was trying to learn it that I prefer Colemak more, which I am in the process of learning now. I started about a month ago and I'm at around 50 wpm, while on Qwerty my average is around 95. My Qwerty speed drops noticeably if I try to switch immediately back and forth, but after some warmup, there's small speed change.
http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak/
For those of you worried about losing Qwerty speed, there's a graph of Ryan Heise's changes.
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You can run colemak on school computers/work computers without installing any software using autohotkey or portable keyboard layout. I put these programs on my USB drive and just run the exe files when I'm using Colemak. I actually have Dvorak too on the same portable keyboard program so that it cycles when I do ctrl+alt hotkey.
I could never find any instructions with those scripts describing how to use them (turn them off, remove the keymap display, etc).
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The portable layout I downloaded seems pretty self explanatory. It comes with a notepad settings file that has instructions on how to create new hotkeys, add new layouts, etc. However, even with the autohotkey program I have, if I just right click on the icon in my taskbar, a list of options and settings pops up to do those things
http://pkl.sourceforge.net/http://pkl.sourceforge.net/
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This is an interesting topic. I might give it a try.
In the meantime, here is a Colemak 60% layout I created for the 60% Keycap Layouts - OEM, MX & B/S (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38342.msg741469#msg741469) thread.
- Ron | samwisekoi
[edit]Added UNEI arrows.
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That's a nice layout SMK, but why no arrows Fn + UNEI?
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That's a nice layout SWK, but why no arrows Fn + UNEI?
Why not indeed. Updated.
- Ron | samwisekoi
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Carry ur Colemak keyboard around with you so you never hafta switch back to Qwerty.
When it comes out, I'll probably use it.
Until then, I finally made a split hardware dvorak keyboard out of my two access-IS 12*6's. I will take it to work where I'm not allowed to change the keyboard layout, but I (Finally) got permission to bring in and use a keyboard.
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Or you could use Arduino/Teensy-based converter.
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Dvorak and Colemak are excellent alternatives of Qwerty.
Colemak moves only half (17) of the keys from Qwerty instead of 30 of Dvorak so the time you need to switch is also halved compared to Dvorak.
And zxcv remains the same make you happy to do the Copy Paste thing.
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Is z used for anything special?
I only use xcv for cut copy paste(insert)
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Ctrl+Z is suspend in Unix.
I have been avoiding the whole layout idea for a long time because I know I have difficulty even switching between my PCs and the Macbook. However I may give Colemak a serious try at some point...maybe when the new WASD comes out. My technique is awful anyway, so being forced into a new layout may go well with trying to improve my typing technique since I won't be able to cheat as easily with old muscle memories.
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Ctrl+Z is suspend in Unix.
But only in a terminal session, correct? In X11 Ctrl-Z is just the normal Undo.
- Ron | samwisekoi
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How universal is z for Undo?
How about u?
I programmed some software before that used U for undo. (I must be cRaZy :)
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How universal is z for Undo?
How about u?
I programmed some software before that used U for undo. (I must be cRaZy :)
It goes back to (at least) the Apple Human Interface Guidelines, 1987 Addison-Wesley. See page 81, Figure 3-36.
- Ron | samwisekoi
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If you have to undo, you're doing it wrong. ;)
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You can run colemak on school computers/work computers without installing any software using autohotkey or portable keyboard layout. I put these programs on my USB drive and just run the exe files when I'm using Colemak. I actually have Dvorak too on the same portable keyboard program so that it cycles when I do ctrl+alt hotkey.
http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=Windows
There's links to the portable layout and autohotkey downloads on the colemak website.
I don't actually use Dvorak anymore, however, since I found while I was trying to learn it that I prefer Colemak more, which I am in the process of learning now. I started about a month ago and I'm at around 50 wpm, while on Qwerty my average is around 95. My Qwerty speed drops noticeably if I try to switch immediately back and forth, but after some warmup, there's small speed change.
http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak/
For those of you worried about losing Qwerty speed, there's a graph of Ryan Heise's changes.
Cool!
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Colemak is an easier change from QWERTY since only some of the keys places are changed, also I heard it's better than Dvorak, but I guess that's a personal opinion.
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Colemak is an easier change from QWERTY since only some of the keys places are changed, also I heard it's better than Dvorak, but I guess that's a personal opinion.
For common English texts (layout efficiency depends on corpus, of course), Colemak is slightly better in terms of finger travel. The thing is, Dvorak and Shai went different ways to achieve comfort/efficiency: hand alternation on Dvorak, versus finger rolls on Colemak. That's matter of personal preference. For me, hand alternation is something impossible to achieve without making typos all the time.
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qwerty
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I'd like to elaborate (by request) a little on the main reason I didn't choose colemak when I switched from QWERTY.
First, let's get some things clear:
1. I don't think colemak is inferior
2. I will even agree that colemak is likely better than Dvorak. There is lots of evidence in favor of this.
3. I recommend other people to switch from QWERTY to colemak, not Dvorak.
The reason I didn't choose colemak is because it's based on QWERTY. Colemak was designed to have many letters in the same place, or on the same finger as QWERTY, which makes it easy to learn (I would imagine: I've never tried, so "ease of learning" is all second- or third-hand). This is the reason I didn't learn it. When I decided to switch, I decided that QWERTY was awful, and had a lot of issues. At the same time, I started building my philosophy/personality (That's a whole 'nother story).
I wanted to make sure everything I did was solidly grounded. Once I had a good foundation to build on, I could continue until done. I am also a non-consequentialist.
So it didn't matter to me what colemak changed from QWERTY, or how many differences there are. It didn't matter the benefits compared to Dvorak, or the other conveniences. Since it uses QWERTY as a starting point, I didn't want it. Even if all the letters were moved, it would be no good. The consequences of colemak do not justify their rotten foundation.
Now, I realize that most people are a little less inflexible in their philosophy, and, in the interest of helping them, I recommend colemak. most people don't care where a solution comes from, as long as it works. Most people are at least a little consequentialist.
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I have tried AZERTY on my phone and I can see the potential.
It feels easy and natural to find the keys.
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I switched to dvorak when I was in pain and my productivity was pretty much rock bottom. I figured halving my output when it was already low made it the best time to do it.
I went for dvorak rather than Colemak for convenience as the kinesis had it built in. I do wish I went with Colemak, as I had a terrible time with muscle memory when using shortcuts.
I think getting away from qwerty is more important than the layout you move to.
Also, learning a new layout really helped me with sorting out my hand position when typing, I spent about twenty years typing with hands resting on the desk in front of the keyboard. Changing layouts made me think about my typing all the time.
If you are thinking of changing layouts, then I'd advise you to sort out a good selection of macros, snippets/templates - anything to get your efficiency up so you aren't quite so reliant on typing to get things done. Then switch.
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I'm sensing that DV makes his argument more from the position of purity and aesthetics. I do think Dvorak is a bit better to look at than Colemak, as there is no echo of Qwerty and the whole layout has this intentional look to it. But most of us who switch to alternatives end up looking at Qwerty printed on the keys anyway.
Colemak's pedigree doesn't concern me as long as it terminates with a robust analytical approach that results in efficiency and comfort. Maybe that makes me a ruthless consequentialist, but I'm getting tired of living in a culture that seeks to escape from measured reality with perplexingly more gusto as each year passes.
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Conclusion:
- If you're typing in Qwerty, go straight to Colemak, since Colemak has more common keys with Qwerty.
- If you has switched to Dvorak, you stay put.
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No one uses Norman? http://normanlayout.info
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Might want to read up.
http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/1
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-keyboard-purposely-designed-to-slow-typists
I'm not sure what all the arguments are, but since fast typists type 120 and the fastest type over 200 on qwerty, I'm thinking speed isn't the best argument. The difference would be negligible either way.
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Might want to read up.
http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/1
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-keyboard-purposely-designed-to-slow-typists
I'm not sure what all the arguments are, but since fast typists type 120 and the fastest type over 200 on qwerty, I'm thinking speed isn't the best argument. The difference would be negligible either way.
I didn't switch to dvorak hoping to type faster. I originally switched because I read that it's much more efficient than QWERTY was and much more comfortable to type on. And I must tell you, that I do not regret switching to the dvorak layout. It definitely feels much more comfortable to type on than QWERTY, and that's really the only thing that matters. Oh and by the way, I believe the world's fastest typist ever was Barbara Blackburn who happened to type on the DVORAK layout as well.
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Does switching from Qwerty really show improvement in the long run? Or is it just a hobby? I can't imagine productive would go up much from just changing layout. How else will I type sex with one hand D:
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Does switching from Qwerty really show improvement in the long run? Or is it just a hobby? I can't imagine productive would go up much from just changing layout.
I guess it's kinda subjective. One of the reasons why I switched was the lack of any standards for typographic and such symbols on QWERTY (and especially on Czech QWERTZ).
It took me years to get past 50 wpm on national QWERTY, I could maintain 55 wpm for a while, but it was exhausting, and I didn't progress any further. On Colemak? 55 wpm in 6 months, up to 75 wpm in two years. I can type at 55 wpm without any fatigue nowadays.
How else will I type sex with one hand D:
Mirrored layout.
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For most practical purposes, 50 wpm is more than enough. Most of the time we just stare at the screen anyway.
By moving all the most frequent keys to the homerow, Colemak/Dvorak makes the hands move less, they bring much comfort and less tiredness while typing.
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Might want to read up.
http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/1
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-keyboard-purposely-designed-to-slow-typists
I'm not sure what all the arguments are, but since fast typists type 120 and the fastest type over 200 on qwerty, I'm thinking speed isn't the best argument. The difference would be negligible either way.
I read a little bit of those articles, Very interesting! I had no idea the navy study was so... interestingly done.
Nevertheless, I have to suspect any study that rates QWERTY above dvorak because: "at least one study indicates that placing commonly used keys far apart, as with the QWERTY, actually speeds typing, since you frequently alternate hands".
Hand alternation is certainly more prevalent in Dvorak than QWERTY with almost any sample text.
Secondly, to address, the reason.com article, even if the navy study was flawed, it doesn't mean Dvorak is worse. What it does mean is that there is less reason to believe the study's claims, or more specifically that no information is gained, and one cannot base one's opinion of either layout on those results. There are some objective benefits to using dvorak, especially if one looks at hand travel, etc. How relevant those are to a person is likely a more subjective claim.
It's true, I strongly base my opinion on Dvorak on aestheic claims, as it is a more "pure layout". Since there is some evidence that it won't make me type faster, at least I can feel better about it when I am typing.
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I'm a recent convert to Dvorak (~2.5 months). Previously, I could hunt-and-peck at 40-45 WPM on QWERTY, and I can now touch-type using Dvorak at the same speed. Now, all this talk about sexy hand-rolls and Dvorak being more applicable to typewriters than computer keyboards is enticing me to try Colemak out. Typing digraphs like 'th', 'ch' feels incredibly comfortable to me, so I think my brain is primed to like rolls more than hand alternations.
I really wish I had started with Colemak. If I had found this thread on GH earlier, I would have definitely gone with Colemak. Then again, I had found GH while researching Dvorak, so my reasoning might be circular.
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@Elimist: Since you are already converted to Dvorak, there is not necessary to convert again since Colemak is only 1%-2% better than Dvorak overall. Some Dvorak users have converted to Colemak to get the benefit of the hotkeys but they are only minority.
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I keep reading threads like this, and wanting to try Colemak in particular, or even build an Ergodox, but I have a laptop and occasionally maintain computers for several other people, so the disorientation of jumping back and forth worries me. I am not young any more.
How hard is it to sit down at someone else's ANSI layout keyboard and not feel disoriented?
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I keep reading threads like this, and wanting to try Colemak in particular, or even build an Ergodox, but I have a laptop and occasionally maintain computers for several other people, so the disorientation of jumping back and forth worries me. I am not young any more.
How hard is it to sit down at someone else's ANSI layout keyboard and not feel disoriented?
I dont have too much trouble, other than my usual bad accuracy. Some Gh'ers use dvorak on their ergonomic keyboards (like a kinesis) and QWERTY on their flat keyboards, which helps reinforce the difference for them. I see this as a good way of doing things. Another option is to do Dvorak standing and QWERTY sitting.
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Conclusion:
- If you're typing in Qwerty, go straight to Colemak, since Colemak has more common keys with Qwerty.
- If you has switched to Dvorak, you stay put.
This doesn't cover people who currently can't touch type at all. I was like that and learned colemak. Though I'm sort of tempted to switch to QGMLWY before colemak is too ingrained. Wonder if theres a Q*MLW* layout special made for matrix boards anywhere.
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I have switched QWERTY to Colemak via Dvorak about two years ago. I prefer Colemak more than Dvorak even though Colemak requires additional installation. The reason why I prefer Colemak more is that you can have less stress when you type on other's computer. When I work, sometimes I have to type on QWERTY for some reasons such as presentation or something. And people are not tolerant on switching key layout especially in the middle of conference.
But why do you want to change layout? Even though I type on Colemak, it does not improve any of your performance. Rather, it actually causes inconveniences as QWERTY is dominant.
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Conclusion:
- If you're typing in Qwerty, go straight to Colemak, since Colemak has more common keys with Qwerty.
- If you has switched to Dvorak, you stay put.
This doesn't cover people who currently can't touch type at all. I was like that and learned colemak. Though I'm sort of tempted to switch to QGMLWY before colemak is too ingrained. Wonder if theres a Q*MLW* layout special made for matrix boards anywhere.
If so I'd be all about that, I have several matrix keyboards. I'm considering making one that is based on good punctuation position, which is a possible issue with the q*mlw* layouts.
I guess the best bet is to make your own keyboard (Programmable) and then do your own layout based on character usage frequencies.
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I guess the best bet is to make your own keyboard (Programmable) and then do your own layout based on character usage frequencies.
Ideally everyone will have his/her own layout which caters to his or her own finger statistics such as finger lengths and muscle strengths.
Until then, there will be endless debates to decide which is the best layout. It is funny to watch those debates since there is no best layout for everyone.
Even Colemak is only 98.034% optimized, for English language only.
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Right. So, if possible, a programmable keyboard and customized layout is the best bet, but it costs time. You have to examine your own hands in brute force way.
I recommend modifying colemak layout for your taste, heh.
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I would like to learn Colemak, but for the work I do, it is just inconvenient so often. I am forced to use qwerty for a large part of the day anyway.
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I would like to learn Colemak, but for the work I do, it is just inconvenient so often. I am forced to use qwerty for a large part of the day anyway.
Being a Colemak user, I put this file in my USB to type Colemak in another Qwerty computer easily
http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak.exe
You just have to run it, after that you can type Colemak to your heart's content. You just have to remove that program when you've done.
For Dvorak, DVassist will help with the same way: run it, type in Dvorak, remove it when you have finished typing.
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I would like to learn Colemak, but for the work I do, it is just inconvenient so often. I am forced to use qwerty for a large part of the day anyway.
Being a Colemak user, I put this file in my USB to type Colemak in another Qwerty computer easily
http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak.exe
You just have to run it, after that you can type Colemak to your heart's content. You just have to remove that program when you've done.
For Dvorak, DVassist will help with the same way: run it, type in Dvorak, remove it when you have finished typing.
Thanks Tony.
What I did so far was to download the setup file from Colemak site, install it, and change language when I was not with my custom keyboard.
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Thanks Tony.
What I did so far was to download the setup file from Colemak site, install it, and change language when I was not with my custom keyboard.
You're welcome. At work most of our company's computers are not allowed to install anything, so the .EXE is my only solution.
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Thanks Tony.
What I did so far was to download the setup file from Colemak site, install it, and change language when I was not with my custom keyboard.
You're welcome. At work most of our company's computers are not allowed to install anything, so the .EXE is my only solution.
At my work, programs and .EXE's are not allowed at all. The only option is a programmable keyboard or hardware layout converter like the (overpriced) QIDO.
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A teensy layout converter exists somewhere.
My edox is my main board so I haven't looked into it.
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A teensy layout converter exists somewhere.
My edox is my main board so I haven't looked into it.
Where? I'm not aware of any Teensy projects that will accept USB input. I know I can use a soarer converter to remap whatever PS2 keyboard to any layout I want, but I didn't know there was anything Teensy based for USB
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A teensy layout converter exists somewhere.
My edox is my main board so I haven't looked into it.
Where? I'm not aware of any Teensy projects that will accept USB input. I know I can use a soarer converter to remap whatever PS2 keyboard to any layout I want, but I didn't know there was anything Teensy based for USB
It was either on the colemak or deskthority forum. It was a teensy and a teensy shield working together, not just the teensy.
I'll look for it when I'm at home.
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Arduino (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1561)
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For common English texts (layout efficiency depends on corpus, of course), Colemak is slightly better in terms of finger travel. The thing is, Dvorak and Shai went different ways to achieve comfort/efficiency: hand alternation on Dvorak, versus finger rolls on Colemak. That's matter of personal preference. For me, hand alternation is something impossible to achieve without making typos all the time.
I disagree... with Dvorak, in terms of accuracy, I was able to make better progress in a month than what I have with 6 months on colemak.
I guess for me, I never touch-typed before learning Dvorak. Personally, I found that the rolls make take a lot more getting used to in terms of accuracy.
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For common English texts (layout efficiency depends on corpus, of course), Colemak is slightly better in terms of finger travel. The thing is, Dvorak and Shai went different ways to achieve comfort/efficiency: hand alternation on Dvorak, versus finger rolls on Colemak. That's matter of personal preference. For me, hand alternation is something impossible to achieve without making typos all the time.
I disagree... with Dvorak, in terms of accuracy, I was able to make better progress in a month than what I have with 6 months on colemak.
I guess for me, I never touch-typed before learning Dvorak. Personally, I found that the rolls make take a lot more getting used to in terms of accuracy.
What do you disagree with? The first part of my comment was based on information from the Colemak website, the second part was my personal experience.