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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: LollyWater on Thu, 29 November 2012, 23:44:47

Title: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: LollyWater on Thu, 29 November 2012, 23:44:47
Or are they just the most well known?
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: jabar on Thu, 29 November 2012, 23:48:46
They are the most distributed since I think only Unicomp has patent rights on buckling spring switches (if they're still valid).

Topre hybrid switches are considered the best and can only be found on $200+ keyboards.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 29 November 2012, 23:50:19
^All subjective, to be sure.

Best is pretty much always subjective, as people will always have differing opinions.

Also, there are many different kinds of MX switches, so there's that...
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: WhipeeDip on Thu, 29 November 2012, 23:52:51
The general consensus is that Topre switches are the best, but keyboards with Topre switches are quite expensive.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: rowdy on Fri, 30 November 2012, 00:09:46
Probably the most commonly available (there is like 1 buckling spring keyboard manufacturer, and one? or only a few Topre keyboard manufacturers, and how many MX keyboard manufacturers?).

Plus the cost can be quite low compared to BS and Topre ($40 for a QRF for example).

So they are the most widely distributed.

Therefore custom keycap manufacturers have targetted Cherry MX switched boards to gain the widest audience.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: Burz on Fri, 30 November 2012, 00:51:01
No. Unless you're a fan of linear switches, Cherry MX are mediocre.

Many/most here would probably agree that buckling spring and Topre are better. And the new Matias switches are very well received so far. I would also consider a couple of the older ALPS switch types to be better than MX.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: iBro on Fri, 30 November 2012, 01:14:01
Alps checking in here. If you want decent tactility in your switch, but can't have the noise of MX blues, then you are pretty **** out of luck when it comes to cherry mx switches. Since mx browns offer virtually no tactility.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 30 November 2012, 01:15:07
Quote from: iBro on Fri, 30 November 2012, 01:14:01
Alps checking in here. If you want decent tactility in your switch, but can't have the noise of MX blues, then you are pretty **** out of luck when it comes to cherry mx switches. Since mx browns offer virtually no tactility.

Clears or ergo clears

They have a very nice bump to them
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: iBro on Fri, 30 November 2012, 01:19:30
Quote from: The_Beast on Fri, 30 November 2012, 01:15:07
Quote from: iBro on Fri, 30 November 2012, 01:14:01
Alps checking in here. If you want decent tactility in your switch, but can't have the noise of MX blues, then you are pretty **** out of luck when it comes to cherry mx switches. Since mx browns offer virtually no tactility.

Clears or ergo clears

They have a very nice bump to them

They are also very hard to obtain and require (usually) extensive modding if you don't have PCB mounted switches. Since clears really only show up in limited editions, and ergo clears are a custom switch, I don't really see them as an option most of the time when deciding between cherry mx switches.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: davkol on Fri, 30 November 2012, 06:43:33
It depends how you define ordering. Modern Cherry MX switches probably last longer than Topre (50 million keystrokes on repairable switch versus 30 million keystrokes on switch that uses rubber dome as an integral part). On the other hand, many will argue that Topre switches are more pleasant to use, but that's subjective by definition.

Good thing about Cherry MX is availability and modularity.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: Burz on Fri, 30 November 2012, 13:06:13
Quote from: davkol on Fri, 30 November 2012, 06:43:33
Good thing about Cherry MX is availability and modularity.
I think the combination of mediocrity (rarely or never hitting the 'sweet spot' for tactility and stiffness) and the modularity is what leads a lot of enthusiasts to collect so many different boards and keycaps, converting it into a consumer spending habit.

Cherry's biggest failure was with the MX blue. They made it shrill so it would stand out in a busy retail store, but to many of us who don't mind a little noise to go along with tactility it is too loud. The MX white suggests they could correct the problem, but the whites are very stiff. The browns and clears are a primitive gerry-rigging of a linear design and the result is a 'dirty' feel (and the actuation point is too low).

Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: iri on Fri, 30 November 2012, 13:57:57
completely disagree with previous poster on mx clears feel
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 02 December 2012, 02:11:09
Quote from: jabar on Thu, 29 November 2012, 23:48:46
They are the most distributed since I think only Unicomp has patent rights on buckling spring switches (if they're still valid).

Topre hybrid switches are considered the best and can only be found on $200+ keyboards.
Lots of people prefer the honeywell (Microswitch) hall effect linear switches to topre. It's really based on one's prefrences.

Sure, lots of people prefer topre to cherry MX, but cherry MX has a lot more options, and is much more DIY friendly. It's almost like IBM model F v-s model M. Many preffer the model F, but the Membrane mechanism is much more diy friendly (and easier to get)

I've always wanted to get a good hall effect keyboard (like the symbolics one) and modify it for use with a modern computer, but unfortunately they are pretty uncommon, and only people like Haata seem to be able to get them :p

I also hear the cortronics ones are good, but The only time I've been able to get them, they were rubber dome over hall effect, and I didn't feel like converting them into linears with BTC or custom springs, despite the awesomeness and reliablity.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: rootwyrm on Sun, 02 December 2012, 04:02:06
Quote from: jabar on Thu, 29 November 2012, 23:48:46
They are the most distributed since I think only Unicomp has patent rights on buckling spring switches (if they're still valid).

Buckling spring patent is expired. (http://www.google.com/patents?vid=4118611) However, Unicomp purchased both the IP and the tooling to produce it. Technically another company could make them, but the R&D required to create new tooling isn't likely to be cost effective when compared to using off the shelf parts like the Cherry MX family.

As for the other aspects, it's hard to say. Cherry MX has a significant availability advantage, and offers a rather nice lifecycle of ~50M+ operations. Unlike Topre, any manufacturer can use Cherry MX as well - there's no licensing required and zero special tooling. (If you can make motherboards, you can make Cherry MX PCBs.) Even if you can't repair one, you can replace one, it's easy to find parts, and a number of other switches copy the Cherry pin dimensions to give manufacturers flexibility. It's entirely legal to match the pin layout.
The downside is that it's also made it easy to make knockoff Cherry switches and there's likely to be a number of convincing forgery parts out there as well. Part forging is a truism on high dollar, high value electronics parts as a whole - and sometimes the forgeries are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing.

But from a volume manufacturing standpoint, Cherry MX actually is the best switch on the market currently. It has the combination of highest availability, it's a medium cost part, it offers the greatest flexibility within a single line, and has the lowest estimated failure rate.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: Peter on Sun, 02 December 2012, 07:04:01
IMO, the best switch ever made is the IBM beam-spring, found on keyboards like this :
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/553/scan21.jpg)

There are some old posts with good photos and discussion of it, if the search can find them, they are quite old ..
Everything else, including IBM's own 'buckling springs', is pretty much just a cheaper and cheaper attempted imitation,
except for the linear Cherry-switches (that I happen to like a lot btw) and Topre ..

EDIT :
(http://webwit.nl/input/ibm_beam_spring/key_module.jpg)
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: wetto on Sun, 02 December 2012, 08:11:36
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2chw375.jpg)

Meh, calling all Cherry MX switches "crap" and only considering keyboards with a crazy expensive and very controlled switch type isn't really a good thing to say in here, everyone's just fighting against each other, as always happens every god damn time someone brings a topic like this one.

Let's just say this. It's all about tastes. Calling a switch other people just love is completely insane, it's like a gamer saying "Hey, I bought this IBM Model M Keyboard because some people recommended me, but it sucks ass!".

Rather than calling Cherry MX switches "mediocre", which kinda offends half the forum, lets try to keep it to a minimum, ok?
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: LollyWater on Sun, 02 December 2012, 09:47:23
Quote from: wetto on Sun, 02 December 2012, 08:11:36
Show Image
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2chw375.jpg)


Meh, calling all Cherry MX switches "crap" and only considering keyboards with a crazy expensive and very controlled switch type isn't really a good thing to say in here, everyone's just fighting against each other, as always happens every god damn time someone brings a topic like this one.

lets try to keep it to a minimum, ok?

Can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs. I not going to withdraw serious questions because some people might get a little ragey. I don't condone that, But at the same time who cares?
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: longweight on Sun, 02 December 2012, 09:57:31
Topre for me, most MX boards feel cheap and the switches aren't that great either.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: HybridCore on Sun, 02 December 2012, 09:59:03
Too subjective to say that one's better than the other if you're looking for the feel of the switch. If you're talking about lifespan, that would be different.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: davkol on Sun, 02 December 2012, 10:01:22
This thread doesn't come even close to a ****storm. IMHO the question is a bit irrelevant though, because everyone has different tastes/needs/whatever. In fact, without any definition of ordering (as I've already mentioned), it sounds more like a flamebait. Only if it was a poll...
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: LollyWater on Sun, 02 December 2012, 10:23:03
Quote from: davkol on Sun, 02 December 2012, 10:01:22
This thread doesn't come even close to a ****storm. IMHO the question is a bit irrelevant though, because everyone has different tastes/needs/whatever. In fact, without any definition of ordering (as I've already mentioned), it sounds more like a flamebait. Only if it was a poll...

But I didn't ask what the best switch was, I asked if MX Cherry switch popularity was due to it being considered as the best line of switches for general use or if it was just practicality.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: davkol on Sun, 02 December 2012, 11:27:27
Some people do consider Cherry MX to be the best switches, and others don't. The question should be: who and why? (If you meant it like that, I'm sorry for misunderstanding.) Otherwise, it would turn into a pissing contest, and Cherry MX would be the best switches ever invented... because many (if not most) people haven't used anything else.

on-topic: I need some time to adjust to new switches. Only types I've used for longer time are Cherry MY/ML/MX (Black/Blue/Red), complicated ALPS and some weird vintage switches. For me, Cherry MX (Red) are clear winner because they're common (even as separate switches/parts) and (can be modded to be) light+linear+smooth with good keycaps.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: BucklingSpring on Sun, 02 December 2012, 12:04:29
How about NMB SPACE INVADERS?

My favorite mechanical clicky tactile switches of all times. But unlike bucklingsprings and ALPS - No one kept them alive.

About 10 years ago I found the two NMB RTs in my signature NIB. Those twins are the pride of my collection.
Title: Re: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 12:06:28
Quote from: BucklingSpring on Sun, 02 December 2012, 12:04:29
How about NMB SPACE INVADERS?

My favorite mechanical clicky tactile switches of all times. But unlike bucklingsprings and ALPS - No one kept them alive.

About 10 years ago I found the two NMB RTs in my signature NIB. Those twins are the pride of my collection.
I quite hope to try some someday, from what I have read, they are like Cherry Blues, but softer.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: BucklingSpring on Sun, 02 December 2012, 12:32:51
Quote from: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 12:06:28
I quite hope to try some someday, from what I have read, they are like Cherry Blues, but softer.

I just tried them side by side. The spring resistance is pretty much the same. So I wouldn't say softer.

The NMB travel feels more precise and definitively smoother. The NMB click also has less of a metallic sound.

But you're right. Most comparisons we make between switch technologies are flaky at best. The NMB vs MX Blue is certainly apple to apple.

NMBs is just a better Apple.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 02 December 2012, 13:14:02
Quote from: rootwyrm on Sun, 02 December 2012, 04:02:06
Cherry MX has a significant availability advantage, and offers a rather nice lifecycle of ~50M+ operations.
That's only for the linear variants: the Black and the Red.
The tactile variants are rated at ~20M operations, but it happens now and then that individual switches fail earlier than that just from wear and tear.

Quote from: rootwyrm on Sun, 02 December 2012, 04:02:06
But from a volume manufacturing standpoint, Cherry MX actually is the best switch on the market currently. It has the combination of highest availability, it's a medium cost part, it offers the greatest flexibility within a single line, and has the lowest estimated failure rate.
Kudos for writing the first somewhat objective post in this thread.  ^-^

What is the best switch for you is a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: Are MX Cherry considered the best line of switches?
Post by: TheShining on Sun, 02 December 2012, 16:12:31
Subjective and most well known.