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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: link_tree on Mon, 17 December 2012, 16:37:12

Title: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: link_tree on Mon, 17 December 2012, 16:37:12
I'm having a hard time picking a mechanical switch. I'm looking for either a poker / brandless CM QFR / TKL Filco and im not sure if I should get a red or a black switch.
I'm coming from a rubber dome keyboard and the keys does have some resistance to them I don't know how the blacks and reds would feel in comparison.
I think I want something a little lighter but not too light.
what do you recommend?
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: BlindRAGE606 on Mon, 17 December 2012, 16:40:20
A unbranded QFR in Blues/Greens would be the best way to pop your cherry. Buy more expensive boards from there.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: cytoSiN on Mon, 17 December 2012, 16:43:45
If you want something a little lighter and you're coming from membrane and you want MX Cherry I recommend Browns.  That was my first experience, and I'm still using my browns at home for gaming/typing on the regular.  Agree that QFR is the way to go in terms of getting started at a reasonable price.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: jeroplane on Mon, 17 December 2012, 16:46:32
I think I want something a little lighter but not too light.

That makes it very difficult to decide indeed :))

Seems like you are pretty set on linear switches. I would say go with the Reds. The Blacks may be too heavy if you are coming from an RD. Also, if you go with a Poker, you could always swap the springs out to convert Reds to Blacks. Black springs are much more readily available/cheaper as many have these lying around from modding their Black boards to other switches.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: link_tree on Mon, 17 December 2012, 16:52:35
thank you all for the quick replays.
I'm not set on linear but I heard the tactile ones are harder to double click rapidly and spam and I'll be using the keyboard for gaming as well. I don't know though whether it's true or not...
something I don't understand about the green switches is how hard to press are they because every where I look I see they have 85 grams actuation force, that's almost 2 times the force of the red switch. but then I hear people saying they love them and on the other hand many people find the black switch too heavy while it has only 60 grams... this is confusing
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: Sifo on Mon, 17 December 2012, 16:54:17
Gaming go reds. If you're mixing in some typing go browns.

A lot easier when you tell us what you're using the board for :)  also its not true, but if you're new to mechanical keyboards it'll be more enjoyable I guess.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: KuhnTang on Mon, 17 December 2012, 16:56:27
I hate blacks, sounds racist, but in talking switches they are too hard to press.  You get tired of them really fast.  If you are looking for a lighter switch anyway, reds are the way to go for linear switches, however, I agree with the guy above, browns are better.  I think their is a shortage on browns so you better get them while you can.  I constantly go back and forth between Browns/Blues as being my favorite switch.

As for keyboard, I know they're filco clones, but I don't like the QFR, however a lot of people do.  I would just get the filco if you are restricted to the boards you suggested.  Why mess around with a knock off when you can have the real thing.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: precarious on Mon, 17 December 2012, 17:01:24
I always suggest browns as a first switch since they have some tactility, a medium amount of resistance, and they won't drive you insane with clicking (blues).  After using browns you'd probably know if you wanted to switch to something stiffer with the tactile bump (clears), or just get rid of it and move to linear switches with approximately the same resistance (red) or a little more (black).

If you're focusing on the bit about being "harder" to press rapidly, or something of that nature, I wouldn't buy into it.  I've never had any issues gaming with my Filco with brown switches, and it's definitely leaps ahead of a rubber dome board.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: link_tree on Mon, 17 December 2012, 17:01:34
the tactility(<--is that a word?) of the browns interfere with double clicking/key spamming? I know that the brown switches are built somewhat differently to the blues and have only a little bump
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: stonejoint on Mon, 17 December 2012, 17:06:07

Just got my qfr black its nice but if you can handle softer go for reds ill order filco this timer orda ducky for leds
Title: Re: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: Sifo on Mon, 17 December 2012, 17:09:38
the tactility(<--is that a word?) of the browns interfere with double clicking/key spamming? I know that the brown switches are built somewhat differently to the blues and have only a little bump

It's not as big of a bump as you think, people say blues have double clicking issues because of how they're built with the clicking mechanism but browns are fine. I have no issues double tapping on either and I personally don't feel that you should have any trouble double tapping on browns. Especially if you're mashing keys. Even in FPS you're fine.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 17 December 2012, 17:31:37
I started with a Filco TKL w/MX blacks. The reason I chose blacks is that I had tried typing on an old WYSE terminal board (not connected to anything, since it wasn't compatible), and I liked the feeling. Well, modern blacks aren't as nice as those vintage blacks were. I ended up returning the Filco to Amazon.

I now recommend MX Browns for anyone's first keyboard. They are a great all-around switch for typing/gaming/whatever. And they are still tied with MX Reds as my favorite switch. The tactile bump is very light. I tried a Poker with MX Reds after the Filco, and I didn't really like that, either. Felt almost wobbly. I now know that PLATE MOUNTED reds, like on a Filco, are the way to go for light linear action.

I obviously love the Filco TKL. I own 3 of them (all MX reds). It was 6, but I recently sold half of them off, since I can't use that many Filcos. The QFR is probably almost as good as the Filco (never owned a QFR), but I think many people eventually get a Filco, if only for the curiosity of what they are missing in a $150 keyboard versus a $75 keyboard.

Welcome to Geekhack, and good luck with your purchase!
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: cytoSiN on Mon, 17 December 2012, 17:38:35
What games are you playing?  I spammed the crap out of my browns when I was playing WoW (I'm "sober" one year and six months now, thank you very much), and they never once caused me a problem.  I still love that keyboard even though it's an iOne...I guess I got lucky in terms of build quality and I like having something a little cheaper to beat the crap out of.  In my opinion you can't go wrong with browns if you're new to all of this.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: noisyturtle on Mon, 17 December 2012, 17:50:49
Black switches feel gross on my fingers and are the leading cause of whisker cancer in lemmings.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: Deicide on Mon, 17 December 2012, 18:46:49
its personal, all that stuff of what is better.
every one would say something else because of   diffrent taste.
in my opinion buy from wasd that starter pack and from there you will have better view point instead of buying blindly.
allso I got blacks as first keyboard and I love then, but for me they are 2 soft
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: Turbo Slaab on Mon, 17 December 2012, 19:24:54
I constantly spam the spot button on bf3 with browns. I like the bump for spamming better than my qfr with blacks.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: Truday on Tue, 18 December 2012, 06:56:42
Well I have a few points of advice. You could go with Browns for your first switch as they are a highly recommended starting switch from from rubber domes. The tactile bump (won't notice it at all if spamming keys) does help ease the transition as it ever so SLIGHTLY resembles a rubber dome (taking cover! :-X) You could go with the Reds which I HIGHLY recommend if you are a gamer (I personally play WoW, Diablo 3, League of Legends, DoTa 2...) spamming keys is effortless and your hands will learn to type with a lot less effort. It really is like typing on a cloud of boobs. :cool: I've owned keyboards with all the main flavors of the Cherry MX line (Red, Browns, Blue, Black) and I can't say I would recommend Blacks. Of course everyone is different and many people enjoy Blacks, however, I would say the chances of you liking them is a lot lower then you not liking them. Also I'm the type of person that switches switches all the time. For gaming I primarily use Reds, and if I'm doing a lot of typing or just browsing the net I use Browns or Blues depending on how I feel. Blacks take awhile for your hands to get used to as they do require more force to type on and if I were to get used to Blacks and then wanted to switch to Reds... it wouldn't be as fast of a transition compared to the other 3 switches. You could also buy the switch sampler from WASD keyboards as others have mentioned, but it's not the same as actually trying out a keyboard for a few days.

I tried a lot of different keyboards and spent a lot of money paying return shipping and restocking fees. Hands down the best board for your buck is the CM QuickFire Rapid. The quality is second to none and is awesome to type on. I also like the Noppoo Choc Mini's layout for MMO's because the F keys are closer and the swapping ability between CTRL and Caps lock, but the quality isn't that good. Ultimately the choice is up to you, but honestly you can't go wrong with a CM QuickFire Rapid for your first keyboard. Best quality for a good price and even compared to really expensive computers. I can also confirm that Amazon.com and Newegg.com are shipping the new unbranded QF Rapids. Good luck.

-Truday
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: iri on Tue, 18 December 2012, 08:49:17
can you recommend me a very high quality, buttery smooth mx red board?
Title: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 18 December 2012, 08:58:38
can you recommend me a very high quality, buttery smooth mx red board?

Here are 4 of them:

Filco FKBN87MRL/EB2
Filco FKBN87MRL/EFB2
Filco FKBN87MRL/EW2
Filco FKBN87MRL/EFW2
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: Leewei on Tue, 18 December 2012, 08:59:57
I am using a filco with mx reds. I game a lot, specifically starcraft, cs, dota and I came from a rubber dome (dt-35) switching keyboards a month or so ago. The first few days will take some getting used to as you can accidentally click keys with how light the mx reds are. After you get used to it (good time ~ a week) and assuming your hands are familiar with where keys are positioned mx reds become a joy to game and to type. I've used mx blues and browns, and it is nice to have tactile feedback for typing but it wasn't a huge factor for me. I would still pick the reds anyday =D
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 December 2012, 09:52:13
If you've never actually typed on red/blacks, maybe you should go try some out. I know that if you go to a MicroCenter and ask nicely, they'll let you unbox the keyboards and let you try them out. BestBuy also stocks Razer Blackwidows which have blue switches, and the cases have the arrow keys exposed so you can try those as well. I don't think they have the versions with the browns though. If you're not lucky to have a MicroCenter near you and you don't really want blues/browns, maybe you can try ordering a sampler kit from WASDKeyboards. They send you a bunch of keycaps and o-rings, but they also send you a Red, Black, Brown, and Blue switch. You can play with them and see which one you like the most.

Personally? I don't like the linear feel of reds and blacks. But if I did have to pick one, I'd take the reds. I'd say for a first board, get Browns if you're worried about the bump. They have a nice tactile feel without the bump and a quieter sound.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: nullstring on Tue, 18 December 2012, 10:26:52
With browns: If you're using the keyboard "heavy-handed" like you would with games, then you hardly even notice the bump and it doesn't get in the way at all.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 18 December 2012, 11:11:27
My only advice I will give, is go for a board with PCB mount like inexpensive used Cherry G80, not plate mount as your first board. It's super easy to exchange the stems and springs in the switches and give them a real try out. Give each type a few weeks and trade the stems and springs for the next one you want to try. Then if you want to, buy a more expensive board once you actually know what you like.
Title: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 18 December 2012, 11:15:00
^ I wish someone had given me this advice when I started this hobby.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 18 December 2012, 11:17:27
Coming from one that has owned probably in the range of 40 keyboards since I discoverd this forum... lol. I only have like 13 or so right now... hahahaha.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: KuhnTang on Tue, 18 December 2012, 11:32:22
Coming from one that has owned probably in the range of 40 keyboards since I discoverd this forum... lol. I only have like 13 or so right now... hahahaha.

I'm curious as to which keyboards someone with your experience keeps out of the 40?  i.e. which keyboards would you recommend, what's your favorite?
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 18 December 2012, 11:45:58
I have 2 Pokers, and the rest of them are vintage mostly Cherry G80, except for a weird POS matrix keyboard with all 1.5 keys and a Chicony 5161CT that I'm working on something special with as a custom.
My favorites are my KBC Pokers with Cherry doubleshots, Cherry G80-1861HAU, and of course my Cherry ESA-3000HASRO. I favor linear and clicky switches, but red most of all.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: link_tree on Tue, 18 December 2012, 16:50:53
thank you for all the input guys!
I am not a very picky person. I believe that the first switch and keyboard I'll end up with will be the last until it will not work anymore then I'll have to replace it but with mechanical I heard it could take a few decades. makes you wonder what would become of keyboards in the next 10-20 years they will probably install chips in our brains that can transmit our thoughts to a receiver connected to the computer.  :eek:
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 18 December 2012, 17:06:04
makes you wonder what would become of keyboards in the next 10-20 years they will probably install chips in our brains that can transmit our thoughts to a receiver connected to the computer.  :eek:



Keyboard. How quaint!
Title: Re: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 18 December 2012, 18:55:19
makes you wonder what would become of keyboards in the next 10-20 years they will probably install chips in our brains that can transmit our thoughts to a receiver connected to the computer.  :eek:



Keyboard. How quaint!
What happens when I get keybored?
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 18 December 2012, 18:55:52
You go to longweight's web page.

(That's www.key-bored.net (http://www.key-bored.net), for anyone who doesn't get it.)
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 18 December 2012, 19:03:59
eye ceee waht yew deed thar!
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: RougeR on Tue, 18 December 2012, 22:32:16
go for blues if your going mx, good first experience, or go for clears.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: link_tree on Tue, 18 December 2012, 23:40:47
ain't considering blues at all and clears are MIA everywhere I look
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: noisyturtle on Thu, 20 December 2012, 02:41:44
You could just say screw all this talk, and go with a BS board. A manly man of a BS board.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: stonejoint on Thu, 20 December 2012, 02:54:17
I am interesting with mech keyboards about 3 months from now, got my 1st mechanical kb as razer blackwidow blue swtich, IT was ok but software was crap also keycaps and feeling was not that solid, but It was way better than my membrane board so I thought It is really good. After a little search in geek hack I saw blackwidow is a disspoinment so I got offered Cm reds or blacks (mostly reds) But I got blacks,

As my 1st linear switch. It is very good keyboard if I have to compare with blackwidow shape size layout bigger shift etc.

But after you get your 1st swtich youll get an addiction and you are going to get othert switches too so go for red then youll find your way.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: daerid on Thu, 20 December 2012, 02:56:23

Is that an Apple II?
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: link_tree on Thu, 20 December 2012, 02:59:38
You could just say screw all this talk, and go with a BS board. A manly man of a BS board.
BS board? bull**** board? I'm sorry not sure what it means lol.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 20 December 2012, 03:03:18
Buckling spring. They really are nice to type on.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: link_tree on Thu, 20 December 2012, 03:07:30
Buckling spring. They really are nice to type on.
that would be only the IBM models am I right?
I dislike the size of them I'm looking for something with smaller form factor. Ideally a poker but they are hard to come by and the only one I could get is 3 months away from now unless I could find a nice deal in classifieds...
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: daerid on Thu, 20 December 2012, 03:13:47
If you're set on a linear switch, I'd go with the reds. You have a much higher chance of loving them (statistically).
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: link_tree on Thu, 20 December 2012, 03:20:39
I think I'll go for either reds or browns with a preference for reds. but it's probably gonna be whichever available.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 20 December 2012, 03:24:25
Browns feel very similar to blues but a little faster
you can deff dbl tap with browns
reds are my favorite
blacks are most similar force as ruber dome
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: iri on Thu, 20 December 2012, 04:00:05
can you recommend me a very high quality, buttery smooth mx red board?

Here are 4 of them:

Filco FKBN87MRL/EB2
Filco FKBN87MRL/EFB2
Filco FKBN87MRL/EW2
Filco FKBN87MRL/EFW2
thank you very much, jdcarpe. live long and preposterous!
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 20 December 2012, 06:11:03
thank you very much, jdcarpe. live long and preposterous!

пожалуйста
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Thu, 20 December 2012, 06:56:27
First mechanical?

Blue, no doubt.

But if I HAD to pick between red and black for an introductory 'board...
black.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 20 December 2012, 11:53:55
First mechanical?

Blue, no doubt.

But if I HAD to pick between red and black for an introductory 'board...
black.

This is where trying things out comes in really handy.  I discovered very quickly that blues are, thus far, my least favorite switch.  Luckily I knew from the beginning that blues, given their noise, were automatically disqualified and had initially looked to browns, not knowing any better.  After getting to try out blues, browns, reds, and blacks, I discovered that I much prefer linear switches and favor reds.

I'm curious, why black?  I'd probably lean toward red unless it's going to heavily favor gaming or you want a heavy switch.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: daerid on Thu, 20 December 2012, 12:18:02
To be honest, if noise is you're primary concern, then Blacks will be your friend. Browns and Reds are measurably just as loud, although the sound is lower in pitch so it's perceived as quieter. Even though it's not.

Blacks are quieter because the stiffer spring causes lower force when bottoming out, thus a quieter "clack", and also helps to prevent bottoming out entirely.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: precarious on Thu, 20 December 2012, 12:29:56
44444
To be honest, if noise is you're primary concern, then Blacks will be your friend. Browns and Reds are measurably just as loud, although the sound is lower in pitch so it's perceived as quieter. Even though it's not.

Blacks are quieter because the stiffer spring causes lower force when bottoming out, thus a quieter "clack", and also helps to prevent bottoming out entirely.

I'm assuming you have a keyboard with MX switches.

Press a key down all the way, hold it in place.

Now, pull your finger off of it as quickly as possible.

Listen.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: JPG on Thu, 20 December 2012, 12:43:08
I just got my first mech keyboard recently and when faced with the step of choosing the right switch, I must say that it was not an easy thing.

So, in order to find the best switch for me, I first tried to imagine myself typing on one and asking myself: what is the feeling/sound I want to get.

Then I went on youtube, and watched videos of people typing on the different switch. Just with the sound, you can somewhat know how it "feels".

Personaly I ended up chosing browns and I am very satisfied with them so far.

Also, try to listen to those different switches on the keyboard you intent to buy because different keyboards feels/sounds different.

Mine is a filco (camo, TKL, browns) and I just love it.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 20 December 2012, 12:50:15
I just got my first mech keyboard recently...
Mine is a filco (camo, TKL, browns) and I just love it.

That is because you hit the jackpot on your first attempt. You didn't play around with a Noppoo, Razer, or CM Storm. You went straight for the best, with the best switch (IMO). It's like you bought a BMW 5-series as your first car. Congratulations on your purchase! You already own the best there is!
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: JPG on Thu, 20 December 2012, 13:04:03
I just got my first mech keyboard recently...
Mine is a filco (camo, TKL, browns) and I just love it.

That is because you hit the jackpot on your first attempt. You didn't play around with a Noppoo, Razer, or CM Storm. You went straight for the best, with the best switch (IMO). It's like you bought a BMW 5-series as your first car. Congratulations on your purchase! You already own the best there is!

TY. I also want to thank everyone here. The main reason I got this keyboard is because of this forum. I "almost" got a razer blackwidow ultimate, but after reading many bad reviews I decided to search for more options, and after reading a lot (most here and a little on other forums) I decided to go with the Filco because it seemed to be the "sure shot".

Now the problem is that I spend soooo much time reading all is sais here and I end up dreaming about all these mods I have no money for!!! Maybe in a year or 2 my wallet will let me get at least some PBT :) (but finding some that match the camo case will be a challenge, the rainbow/camo that I saw here ain't my type)
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 20 December 2012, 13:32:34
44444
To be honest, if noise is you're primary concern, then Blacks will be your friend. Browns and Reds are measurably just as loud, although the sound is lower in pitch so it's perceived as quieter. Even though it's not.

Blacks are quieter because the stiffer spring causes lower force when bottoming out, thus a quieter "clack", and also helps to prevent bottoming out entirely.

I'm assuming you have a keyboard with MX switches.

Press a key down all the way, hold it in place.

Now, pull your finger off of it as quickly as possible.

Listen.

Blues were disqualified before I had a chance to test any of them.  When I heard "blues are loud" I figured that they were out as it would drive my wife crazy.  Then I got the chance to play with them all and discovered that I didn't like blues and much preferred reds.  I like blacks but I'd rather the lighter force of reds as I'll probably end up using the keyboard for everything given my wife's lack of interest in me spending so much money on a mechanical keyboard let alone buy more than one.

As for other mechanicals, right now I've got a rubber dome and a Model M.  I goof around a bit on the M but it's mostly for the little one to goof around with when in the office, though she tends to prefer the gargantuan Sun Type 5 keyboard as it's big and still light enough to carry easily.  I'm wanting to get a keyboard with reds after doing multiple hours of comparison, but the house finance committee hasn't been too keen on spending that much cash for a keyboard so I get to wait.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: Hyde on Thu, 20 December 2012, 13:46:06
The thing with blue is, even ignoring the fact it makes the sound.  I find the "reset" point too high for my liking.  Since you have to lift the switch almost all the way up before it will register again.

As first mechanical keyboard.  I'd say try mx brown first, it seems to have the lowest failure rate.  After that I'd say try mx red.

In your case, I'd probably get a Filco mx brown.  Otherwise CM Storm QuickFire Rapid mx red is a good choice and it also look really nice with the red plate  :D
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 20 December 2012, 15:28:46

Is that an Apple II?

Mac Plus - says it on the front :)
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: link_tree on Thu, 20 December 2012, 15:47:05
what makes the Topre realforce and HHKB cost so much in comparison to the mx cherry ones?
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 20 December 2012, 15:54:32
I don't own one but if you buy two fullsized KB, you can get a topre.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 20 December 2012, 16:05:50
what makes the Topre realforce and HHKB cost so much in comparison to the mx cherry ones?

Tokyo Press. Oneness of cup rubber. Japanese "luxury" keyboards.
Title: Re: having a hard time picking red or black switch as my first
Post by: iri on Sat, 22 December 2012, 12:38:46
It's like you bought a BMW 5-series as your first car.
pfffffff i thought it was like cayenne s at least.

what makes the Topre realforce and HHKB cost so much in comparison to the mx cherry ones?
japanese labour cost and managers' greed.