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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: iMav on Fri, 31 August 2007, 10:13:28

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: iMav on Fri, 31 August 2007, 10:13:28

Derek from Trideja Digital Creativity (http://www.trideja.com/) turned me on to this paper regarding the Symbolics/MacIvory keyboards:

     THE PERFECT KEYBOARD FOR GNU EMACS AND XML: THE SYMBOLICS/APPLE MACIVORY (http://www.johnbear.net/symbolics-keyboard-paper/gnu-emacs-kbd-for-mac3.html)

Agree or disagree...you gotta appreciate John Bear's healthy obsession with his primary input device!   :wink:

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: xsphat on Fri, 31 August 2007, 11:08:34

I don't know enough about Emacs to vote one way or the other, but I can say that specialty keyboards are not my thing.

I do not like the control keys crowding the space bar, as this is where the command key has been for all my life. Plus, the pics that turned up in my search all had this baby with RJ connectors, and I didn't see any for sale, so is this a company that went out of business or is it vaporware or what?

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: iMav on Fri, 31 August 2007, 11:16:35

It is a keyboard from a MacIvory which was, apparently, sold in 1987.  The entire paper is him lamenting on the fact that there is no modern-day equivalent to this old keyboard.    I'm guessing if you cut your teeth on Emacs with a similarly-configured keyboard, you'd probably have some of the same feelings.  (we like what we know and all that jazz)

I believe he makes some valid points...but he certainly did approach his paper with an obviously strong bias.  

Like I said, I appreciate the obsession.  He knows what he likes.  I can respect that.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: xsphat on Fri, 31 August 2007, 11:24:07

Quote from: iMav

Like I said, I appreciate the obsession.  He knows what he likes.  I can respect that.

Agreed.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: iMav on Fri, 31 August 2007, 11:27:49

Here's a pic:

(http://www.uhhh.org/~lherzog/blog-images/symbolics.jpg)

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: xsphat on Fri, 31 August 2007, 12:18:13

So what do you think of it, iMav?

Have you ever seen or used one?

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: iMav on Sat, 01 September 2007, 00:18:55

Makes me want to buy a Lisp machine of my own to play with.  :)

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: xsphat on Sat, 01 September 2007, 01:59:47

See, when I read stuff like that I am sometimes list in that all I know of a a Lisp is that it is a speech impediment. I guess I'm not as geeky as I should be. I'll work on that.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: iMav on Sat, 01 September 2007, 04:09:26

Quote from: xsphat

See, when I read stuff like that I am sometimes list in that all I know of a a Lisp is that it is a speech impediment. I guess I'm not as geeky as I should be. I'll work on that.

Well, your favorite editor was written in Lisp.  And, being a writer, you might be interested in reading this (http://dreamsongs.com/ArtOfLisp.html).  :)

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: zXWF on Fri, 23 April 2010, 15:53:36

Nice! I am a big Emacs fanboy and didn't thought I would find a Emacs thread here (I have no explaination for that assumption), time to hit the search box. Thank you, troll!

What kind of connector do the Symbolics got?

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 23 April 2010, 16:02:35

RJ-11 for Lisp machines.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 23 April 2010, 23:44:49

Huh, I remember when me and my friend spent over 10 minutes trying to find the power button on the eMacs; obviously we didn't want to ask the teacher because that would just be going too low.

I have one suggestion: power buttons should be on the front (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_power_button_on_an_eMac) (crazy hey?). Heck, they could have made the apple logo into a power button, that would actually be kind of cool, they could make it glow too.

And that link no longer seems to work.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: kishy on Fri, 23 April 2010, 23:56:49

EIBM...sorry to do this but I've just facepalmed at you.

Emacs is a text editor for those who feel the need to use software that creates the false sense of being better than something.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: zXWF on Sat, 24 April 2010, 03:40:55

Quote from: EverythingIBM;175324

Huh, I remember when me and my friend spent over 10 minutes trying to find the power button on the eMacs; obviously we didn't want to ask the teacher because that would just be going too low.

I have one suggestion: power buttons should be on the front (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_power_button_on_an_eMac) (crazy hey?). Heck, they could have made the apple logo into a power button, that would actually be kind of cool, they could make it glow too.

And that link no longer seems to work.

I think you are confusing Emacs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs) with eMac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMac). Yes, the naming of the Apple computer was unfortunate.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 24 April 2010, 03:51:42

Quote

EIBM...sorry to do this but I've just facepalmed at you.

(http://www.scienceblogs.de/astrodicticum-simplex/2009/05/07/double-facepalm.jpg)

He's not the first person to make that mistake, but I find it completely baffling that someone who actually read the thread would realize that it's not about Apple. Is the Apple hatred so strong that every time something that looks Mac related is posted, vitriol has to be spewed?

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: kishy on Sat, 24 April 2010, 10:36:05

I certainly hate Apple enough to do it. I do however also like to avoid looking...less observant than I am, even though I still have my weekly blunders around here (typically stems from a fundamental "tl;dr" problem).

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: Stevie Wonder on Sat, 24 April 2010, 12:14:34

Yo kids, learn to focus.

Record label don't let me do the 7 minute tracks anymo.  

TL;DR

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344">[/youtube]

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 24 April 2010, 13:44:14

Quote from: ch_123;175359

Show Image

(http://www.scienceblogs.de/astrodicticum-simplex/2009/05/07/double-facepalm.jpg)

He's not the first person to make that mistake, but I find it completely baffling that someone who actually read the thread would realize that it's not about Apple. Is the Apple hatred so strong that every time something that looks Mac related is posted, vitriol has to be spewed?

Well I was wondering why:
#1 people wrote Emac instead of eMac.
#2 why people would actually like such a monstrosity.

And the link to iMav's page was dead as I heretofore said, so, I'm not going to be looking up an Emac.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 24 April 2010, 14:23:06

And multiple mentions of "It's for Lisp machines" and a picture of an obviously 70/80s keyboard convinced you that this thread about an eMac?

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 24 April 2010, 14:36:46

Quote from: ch_123;175496

And multiple mentions of "It's for Lisp machines" and a picture of an obviously 70/80s keyboard convinced you that this thread about an eMac?

THEY'RE EVERYWHERE:
(http://south-grahams-emac-lab-.sge.abss.k12.nc.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/group_webpage/35298-127291-490.JPG)
One cool thing about the eMacs is that you can run them with 130 Hz in 640x480 (obviously they're not running them in 130 Hz in the above picture): I really want to try 320x240; but apple didn't include that resolution.

EDIT: call me crazy, but, I thought that keyboard somehow worked on the eMacs. I know, it's so crazy that I didn't believe it.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 24 April 2010, 14:49:00

Ah, I found my pictures! I had to do some thing for computer class (it was like a slide show; so, I did one with the eMacs/iMacs and my thinkpad).

Here's the 138Hz, WOOOO!
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9428&stc=1&d=1272138443)

The one annoying thing (even on iMacs), is that you can sometimes get your windows stuck when they're too big, and that will green button doesn't always work:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9430&stc=1&d=1272138479)
(nevermind the fact you can't "maximize" a window, everything just floats around on the screen).

The lone thinkpad amongst the iMacs:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9429&stc=1&d=1272138443)

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: kishy on Sat, 24 April 2010, 15:16:09

I don't care about refresh rate, screen resolutions below 800x600 are utter death.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: JBert on Sat, 24 April 2010, 18:48:05

If we're resurrecting threads from 2007, I might as well chime in and state that the model F AT is Emacs-friendly.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sat, 24 April 2010, 20:39:44

Quote from: JBert;175613

If we're resurrecting threads from 2007, I might as well chime in and state that the model F AT is Emacs-friendly.

2007 was a bad year, I think that's when the intellistation M pros were discontinued.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 25 April 2010, 03:15:30

From the sounds of it, the Filco would be a much nicer keyboard for typing than that linear Symbolics one.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: mrbill on Sun, 25 April 2010, 03:18:16

Quote from: ch_123;175725

From the sounds of it, the Filco would be a much nicer keyboard for typing than that linear Symbolics one.

Right, I just want to get a Symbolics keyboard while they're still relatively available.  I've already got a 104-key Filco w/Blues, and *love* it.  After using an MX11800 and a Ricercar SPOS, I finally bit the bullet and ordered the Tenkeyless on Friday.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Sun, 25 April 2010, 04:50:07

Quote from: JBert;175613

If we're resurrecting threads from 2007, I might as well chime in and state that the model F AT is Emacs-friendly.

I can believe that. Though I would think having the bottom modifier keys all the way to the side is annoying. On the model M, moving CTRL to CAPS makes a lot of difference for Emacs work. On the F, you've got no modifier keys next to the space bar.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: zXWF on Sun, 25 April 2010, 07:07:13

Quote from: mrbill;175727

Right, I just want to get a Symbolics keyboard while they're still relatively available.  I've already got a 104-key Filco w/Blues, and *love* it.  After using an MX11800 and a Ricercar SPOS, I finally bit the bullet and ordered the Tenkeyless on Friday.

Relatively available? I have searched "everywhere" and have never found anything :( Would love to have a Symbolics...

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: zXWF on Sun, 25 April 2010, 09:48:59

Quote from: webwit;175784

Here (http://www.symbolics-dks.com/) or here (http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/).

Thanks. What kind of connectors do they use? I guess it's not just "plug & play".

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: Specter_57 on Sun, 25 April 2010, 09:55:54

..

Interesting keyboard pic, maybe related to the thread...
.
.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9448&stc=1&d=1272207292)
.
.
.
...............
Spec_57

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 25 April 2010, 10:01:08

Yes, that picture is related to the thread, that is the predecessor of the LISP Machine and MacIvory keyboards we've seen pictured previously.

If only our modern-day PCs had keyboards like that!

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: mrbill on Sun, 25 April 2010, 13:08:29

For those of you wanting a relatively easy Symbolics-to-USB adapter:

http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-convert-your-symbolics-keyboard.html

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: spremino on Mon, 26 April 2010, 05:40:50

Emacs is THE customizable editor. No need for special keyboards. If you don't customize your key bindings, then you are not using Emacs to its fullest (forgot the source).

Ergoemacs is an ergonomic layout for Emacs by Xah Lee and others:

http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_emacs_keybinding.html

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: JBert on Mon, 26 April 2010, 15:05:07

That Ergoemacs layout seems to make sense, I set up Vim in the same way. Maybe I should look at Vimpulse...

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: ironcoder on Mon, 03 May 2010, 08:58:29

I thought the perfect Emacs keyboard was the VT101. At least it was when I learned Emacs.

I remember them sucking pretty hard, but then again they were preferable to an IBM 029 (sort of, ok not really) and they weighed several thousand times less.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 03 May 2010, 09:01:47

There's an IBM 029 lying around in my college... what was wrong with them?

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: ironcoder on Mon, 03 May 2010, 09:04:05

Nothing, except that every time you touch the wrong key you get to throw out your card. Made even the worst terminal in the world (which the VT10x arguably were, then and now) seem like heaven in comparison.

Those 029s did have great key action though.

Title: The perfect Emacs keyboard?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 04 May 2010, 11:48:33

They're plans for the iPad!