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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: TotalChaos on Thu, 20 December 2012, 16:11:13
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Where do I find a 30g-45g mushy rubberdome keyboard?
I keep reading msgs from zillions of ppl claiming that their rubberdome is like "typing on a sponge" or "typing on soggy oatmeal" or "I like typing on a cloud of mousetraps, I want to feel a sharp *KABAM* with every key I press, typing on my rubberdome feels like typing on my girlfriend's boobs its horrible." WTF?!?
I have never typed on such a rubberdome. Every rubberdome I ever typed on has all of its force up at the top. After applying 60g to 100g of force one collapses the dome, whereupon resistance falls to 5g until you collide with the bottom of the keyboard in a nerve-irritating, tendon-jarring crash. Its about as healthy as driving your car into a brickwall. :eek:
Bring on the smushy keyboards!
And don't bother mentioning Topre keyboards. Topre keyboards don't work on PS/2 which means they do not work. I will not pay money for a known defective product.
If someone can recommend me a MushBoard 2000(tm) that does not waste deskspace with giant blobs of plastic sticking out (like Das, Cherry, Topre) and has all its keys (not HHKB or 60% layouts) and in some sort of US Layout and has a properly functioning keyboard controller that works on ubiquitous PS/2 then I will happily buy one and try it out. Even multiple different ones.
Doing it for Keyboard Science! Thanx! :)
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New rubber domes are nice. logitech G15... something like that is cheap on ebay. Those are supposed to be good rubber domes.
Keytronic
Rubber domes feel lighter than blacks for me but most of them seem to have a bump.
only when they are cheap and get worn, do they feel bad to me. Logitech is one of my favorite rubber domes. The HP stock keyboards are pretty nice. Though they come in large varieties.
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40 cN? Goldtouch! But it's not that mushy. MS Natural Ergo 4k or modern Dell QuietKey are on the mushier side.
And don't bother mentioning Topre keyboards. Topre keyboards don't work on PS/2 which means they do not work. I will not pay money for a known defective product.
Obvious troll is obvious?
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http://www.amazon.com/NEEWER%C2%AE-Portable-Flexible-Silicone-Keyboard/dp/B00092Q210/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1356041990&sr=8-3&keywords=flexible+keyboard
Try this. It's under 20 bucks lol![attachimg=1]
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http://www.amazon.com/NEEWER%C2%AE-Portable-Flexible-Silicone-Keyboard/dp/B00092Q210/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1356041990&sr=8-3&keywords=flexible+keyboard
Try this. It's under 20 bucks lol! (Attachment Link)
I read reviews of that one before and ppl said the keys were very hard to press and only registered right in the center of the key and that the whole thing was just really annoying.
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Though they come in large varieties.
I don't suppose there is a list somewhere of rubberdome keyboards with force graphs or nickelometer tests at least?
So I can have some vague idea what I am getting into?
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I dont thiink they care enough. They just pump em out along with computers. sometimes their computers are poorly described also.
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Though they come in large varieties.
I don't suppose there is a list somewhere of rubberdome keyboards with force graphs or nickelometer tests at least?
So I can have some vague idea what I am getting into?
I have measured about 50 RD keyboards with a ghetto rip-o-meter, and there were some lists with results of others in the now-gone GH wiki. But it's not really worth it, because RD changes its hardness with time, and different series of the same keyboard model may feel different, the feel is affected by key travel, and at last but not least, most RD keyboards are rated at about 60–65 cN anyway.
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I saw a picture once on GH, where a guy was cutting out 2mm sections of surgical tubing and using those as o-rings. I was kind of joking about the flexible keyboard. I highly recommend you try red switches with the surgical tubing mod --- this is the only thing I can think of that would suite your needs (I have seen your posts, and it is clear you need something which will be easy on your fingertips.... something with only resistance, and no "walls".)
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I saw a picture once on GH, where a guy was cutting out 2mm sections of surgical tubing and using those as o-rings.
Yeah! If I can find some 10A surgical tubing or even 10a nonsurgical tubing would be ok with me :p
How was he cutting them at exactly 2mm each?
I found rubber tubes before... but I couldn't figure out how to cut them at exactly 2mm each time. If I am off a bit due to human error then each key will feel different... not what I want.
That was what got me into looking at rubber sheets of a specified thickness. The thickness is machine controlled so all keys will feel the same. I will have human error cutting out the squares with my laser papercutter but that is ok as I have been told that it won't make any difference to the feel if one square O-ring is a little bigger than another.
At least the difference would be minimal.
I was kind of joking about the flexible keyboard. I highly recommend you try red switches
I have purchased 3 cherry reds so far. For testing out various experiments. One I will keep as an "Unmodified reference board" while I make all sorts of changes to the other 2 boards.
with the surgical tubing mod --- this is the only thing I can think of that would suite your needs (I have seen your posts, and it is clear you need something which will be easy on your fingertips.... something with only resistance, and no "walls".)
Exactly! You "get it"!. If I just had a cherry red switch with 12mm spring the spring resistance would get so high that it would just be impossible for me to crash into the steel plate and I would be so happy and could allegedly start writing code again, instead of just being limited to a few forum msgs here and there. A long spring would provide me with resistance only, no walls.
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Good luck finding that keyboard man.... I'm highly doubting that kind of thing will ever exist, sadly. I am just gonna eyeball the tubing when I get mine. Gonna try it on my QFR. Look on Amazon - there's plenty of hella cheap rubber tubing of all sorts.
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@flip
All the rubber tubing on Amazon that fits is harder than WASD O-rings.
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If you look for the surgical tubing that's "natural amber" colored --- THAT's the good ol' stretchy elastic stuff. I use one of those tubes for my vaporizer all the time and I can tell you for sure, it's freaking elastic as heck, and probably will work perfectly. I'm gonna step it up and order the tubing today. I'll have a review on the mod soon.
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If you look for the surgical tubing that's "natural amber" colored --- THAT's the good ol' stretchy elastic stuff.
Yeah that was the only one out of all the zillionz listed that I liked enough to write down in my keyboard file.
It is 35a so its a bit softer than WASD O-rings.
I got my sizes mixed up so I was thinking it wouldn't work but now that I refreshed the DRAM in my brain it seems like it should work just fine.
I use one of those tubes for my vaporizer all the time and I can tell you for sure, it's freaking elastic as heck, and probably will work perfectly. I'm gonna step it up and order the tubing today. I'll have a review on the mod soon.
Can't wait to read it. :)
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Just a quick chime in-
A coworker has one of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-Microsystems-Unix-Type-6-USB-Keyboard-3201273-01-/360360491480?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D13902%26meid%3D4303399564696272516%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1095%26rk%3D5%26sd%3D320545612331%26 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-Microsystems-Unix-Type-6-USB-Keyboard-3201273-01-/360360491480?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D13902%26meid%3D4303399564696272516%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1095%26rk%3D5%26sd%3D320545612331%26)
...and it's the mushiest thing I've ever typed on. It's kinda like a soft, almost linear rubber dome that doesn't bottom out hard. Actuation effort was very low, as was tactility.
But again, as others have mentioned, dome boards are rather inconsistent, particularly as they get older.
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If you want to feel real mush, find a REALLY used old BTC foam and foil. F*cking awful. Otherwise just go and find the cheapest crap like these (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0GA-000N-00002) and I am sure you will find one sooner than later.
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And don't bother mentioning Topre keyboards. Topre keyboards don't work on PS/2 which means they do not work. I will not pay money for a known defective product.
LOL. Somebody's mad.
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40 cN? Goldtouch! But it's not that mushy. MS Natural Ergo 4k or modern Dell QuietKey are on the mushier side.
And don't bother mentioning Topre keyboards. Topre keyboards don't work on PS/2 which means they do not work. I will not pay money for a known defective product.
Obvious troll is obvious?
I definitely echo this sentiment. MS Natural 4000 is definitely mushy.
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40 cN? Goldtouch! But it's not that mushy. MS Natural Ergo 4k or modern Dell QuietKey are on the mushier side.
And don't bother mentioning Topre keyboards. Topre keyboards don't work on PS/2 which means they do not work. I will not pay money for a known defective product.
Obvious troll is obvious?
I definitely echo this sentiment. MS Natural 4000 is definitely mushy.
It's mushy but could use less force on the keys.
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Amen. I have a Nat 4k in my closet, and the other day I pressed on a few keys for the heck of it... dear lord how could I ever have thought that that keyboard was decent.
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If you really want PS/2, why not just get a PS/2 Topre? Plenty of them out there :p, I'm typing this to you on a Topre connected to my PS/2 port right now.
But if you want a rubberdome, why not try those old Dell Quiet Touch keyboards, the ones that came out right after the mechanical ones were phased out. I hear those ones are actually pretty good, that is if you can find one in good condition.
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Amen. I have a Nat 4k in my closet, and the other day I pressed on a few keys for the heck of it... dear lord how could I ever have thought that that keyboard was decent.
I still love mine, though that's purely down to the shape rather than the keys. I haven't tried a whole lot of rubberdomes, but the 4k is by far the worst I've ever tried when it comes to key feel.
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If you really want PS/2, why not just get a PS/2 Topre? Plenty of them out there :p, I'm typing this to you on a Topre connected to my PS/2 port right now.
The only PS/2 Topre keyboards that exist in some form of US Layout are all missing multiple (that means more than one) important keys. Rendering the keyboard useless to me.
The whole reason I buy a keyboard is for the keys.
If a PS/2 Topre keyboard does not have the keys then it is devoid of value.
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You're way too worried about PS2....Besides the fact that you believe you need it..there isn't actually a good reason mentioned..not even once...
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Amen. I have a Nat 4k in my closet, and the other day I pressed on a few keys for the heck of it... dear lord how could I ever have thought that that keyboard was decent.
There are plenty of rubber domes out there that are much worse. I wish MS would make one with MX reds and give a toggle to switch the zoom to scroll.... or someone else release something similar. Sadly, I don't see that happening.
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I googled around for MS Natural 4000 force graphs. Couldn't find one. Does one exist somewhere?
There does not seem to be any way of removing that giant wrist rest?
That wrist rest is a deal breaker for me as it sits right where my mouse goes.
I am not a fan of split keyboards anyway. I typed on some kind of "ergo" keyboard that looked similar to the MS Natural 4000 but it was mostly white as I recall. It was back around 2000-2004 time frame. It was definitely not ergonomic. The keys were very painful as it took a lot of force to overcome the rubberdome and them *BAM* u smacked into the PCB. Also I found the split to be very uncomfortable. I wouldn't mind a small split with small angle or no angle.
Any other keyboards as mushy as MS Natural 4000? Even mushier would be better :) And less force too :)
Preferably just a keyboard, not an entire dashboard :p
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And still no response on the PS2...
But so I'm contributing...
Lenovo Sk-8825
Low actuation force and when it bottoms, it is mushy...Good amount of travel and when you hit bottom from there it still pushes in a bit more so you're not hitting a hard bottom.
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Seems to me that most of your problems are to do with the way you type; if you're bottoming out, then yes, you're going to have a "smack" as you hit bottom, and yes, it's going to be unpleasant. I know, I do it too.
I would suggest that a better solution than "buying random horrible keyboards in case they feel slightly less harsh at the bottom end of the stroke", which seems rather a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face, would be to o-ring one of your existing mechanicals. Or force yourself to type less hard, but that's gonna be real difficult to do.
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Seems to me that most of your problems are to do with the way you type; if you're bottoming out, then yes, you're going to have a "smack" as you hit bottom, and yes, it's going to be unpleasant. I know, I do it too.
I would suggest that a better solution than "buying random horrible keyboards in case they feel slightly less harsh at the bottom end of the stroke", which seems rather a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face, would be to o-ring one of your existing mechanicals.
I just did that (the O-ring, not cutting off my nose :) and its 10x better this way! WOW! :eek:
Or force yourself to type less hard, but that's gonna be real difficult to do.
Yeah I had no idea it would be so hard to undo years of muscle memory training. :'( I mean... dam.... I might even give up on reds in a few months and get lubed cherry blacks.
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O-rings are really wonderful.
I don't think that you will find a mushy rubber dome board. You always have to press hard enough to collapse the dome.
A couple of years ago, I bought a Cherry MY board from someone here (can't remember who, sorry) and he had modded it somehow by removing springs or leaves or something.
Anyway, it was not too terrible although it was ridiculously light, probably 10-20 grams, but I couldn't use it.
I kept the caps (the only real reason I bought it) and tossed the board.
Maybe you should look for a Cherry MY board and do that mod to it .......
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I couldn't stand O-rings on my MX Browns (felt so wrong... like nails on a chalkboard).
But I just realized that somewhere along the way I started adjusting my typing to the board I'm currently typing on (right now I'm on my MJ2 w/ Browns, and I'm barely bottoming out).
On my Topre boards, I pretty much bottom out all the time, but it's nice because of the soft landing. I might try giving the o-rings another shot on my Blues.
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I couldn't stand O-rings on my MX Browns (felt so wrong... like nails on a chalkboard).
But I just realized that somewhere along the way I started adjusting my typing to the board I'm currently typing on (right now I'm on my MJ2 w/ Browns, and I'm barely bottoming out).
On my Topre boards, I pretty much bottom out all the time, but it's nice because of the soft landing. I might try giving the o-rings another shot on my Blues.
If you don't bottom out there is no benefit from having o-rings....You certainly wouldn't want very thick o-rings because that'll only change the travel you're used to. If anything you'd want very thin ones that will just cushion it those few times you bottom..
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yeah, i'm pretty sure I have a pack of 40A-R or 50A-R... maybe should pick up some 40A-L and see how I like them.
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I'm not sure why you would consider o-rings to begin with if you're not really bottoming out.
To be honest, I don't see how people type their fastest without botttoming out...I don't think I've ever seen a reasonably fast typist (100+) not bottom out while typing at that speed but I certainly can be wrong. I think people have a very idealistic view on how, in theory, it would be great not to bottom but most people do...
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You are right!
Its only when I type fast that I bottom out 100% of the time.
When I go slow and concentrate then I can avoid bottoming out say 50%.
There just is not enough travel for me to avoid bottoming out.
I can't believe its the 21st century and all keyboards still have a teensy weensy little amount of travel (4mm) just like they did back in the 20th century, before mp3s, before the internet, before BBSes, before touchtone phones. What have keyboard companies actually been doing all this time?
The rest of the world has been advancing in technology while keyboards have gotten stuck.
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Well, have you ever tried typing on a keyboard with no travel? It sucks. Talk about crashing your fingers. You get zero tactility, so you have no feed back as to whether you're hitting the right key, and you hit the keys harder as a result, causing your fingers to hurt after 5 minutes.
While things like these (http://www.amazon.com/Celluon-Magic-Projection-Keyboard-Touchpad/dp/B005ES6E6W) may be "cool" as a novelty, they suck for actual use. Turns out the 20th century hit on some pretty good tech when it comes to keyboards. Keyboard companies have tried all sorts of new advances, but they never sell, because it's damned near impossible to improve on the basic keyboard tech (not saying you can't improve layout).
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And don't bother mentioning Topre keyboards. Topre keyboards don't work on PS/2 which means they do not work. I will not pay money for a known defective product.
How do you work that out as being defective? Do they claim it works via PS/2 and include a PS/2 plug or adaptor? Not sure how many modern computers even still have PS/2 ports in them, I've not had a computer with one in for God only knows how long.
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And don't bother mentioning Topre keyboards. Topre keyboards don't work on PS/2 which means they do not work. I will not pay money for a known defective product.
How do you work that out as being defective? Do they claim it works via PS/2 and include a PS/2 plug or adaptor? Not sure how many modern computers even still have PS/2 ports in them, I've not had a computer with one in for God only knows how long.
I've had PS/2 ports on all my motherboards, but I wouldn't say the lack of PS/2 makes a keyboard defective as it's not a requirement to be a keyboard at all. My old WYSE board uses some weird RJ11 connector, it doesn't work with my computer but that doesn't make it defective.
But apparently any keyboard that doesn't cater to his specific needs is either defective or an ancient relic that needs to get with the times and start using 10mm travel switches.
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Defective is a term used most commonly to state that something is broken or does not do as it claims it will do. So basically the correct word in this case to use would be compatible. Unless of course Topre keyboards claim they are PS/2 compatible and they really are not, that would be defective. However it is in no way a defect just because it lacks such a feature. /me gets off soapbox.
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What I think is funny is he doesn't even have a particular reason for it. Sure, technically PS2 has some very minute advantages but they're not likely to be noticed by anyone..not to mention PS2 is eventually going to go bye bye...`
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Since I am not a gamer, I am indifferent to the minute speed advantages of the PS2 over the USB.
Although almost all of my motherboards have had the socket (including one with a single socket color-coded half purple and half green) I don't like them much.
As you know, if you read my posts, I hate almost all plug/socket situations (with the exception of the power cord on a MacBook) because they are fraught with weaknesses.
A PS2 socket that has been used many times does get very loose and weak.
Full-sized USB connections seem fairly sturdy (although the small ones don't) and the ability to hot-plug is huge, for those of us who experiment regularly.
Although I am sometimes a traditionalist, I am happy to move to the USB plug at the cable-to-computer connection point.
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I have never found any issues using USB connections for keyboards when gaming, same goes for mouse. I do not see why it would be an issue to the majority unless they are in some really hardcore gaming league where needing to press the entire keyboard at one time is an issue or something, I can't see what the problem is.
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The difference is so minute it is basically a nothing....and even less than a nothing if you aren't gaming. Not that I'd even consider using Topre's for gaming...
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Even if you prefer PS/2 over USB there is not enough of a difference between them to be a deciding factor for most people. If you can use PS/2 you can use USB and most likely not notice any difference whatsoever.
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PS/2 is universal and works everywhere.
USB1.1 is not universal. It only works on devices with a USB 1.1 port.
Millions of electronic devices in the world have a PS/2 port but no USB 1.1 port. These devices require a PS/2 keyboard because USB keyboards cannot connect to them. You cannot connect a Topre keyboard to a PS/2 port with any adapter.
Millions of electronic devices in the world have a USB 1.1 port but no PS/2 port. So what? You can still plug your PS/2 keyboard into your USB 1.1 port with a $10.00 adapter or a $5.00 adapter or a $3.00 adapter.
Also it is completely ludicrous to pay $300.00 for a keyboard that is so badly designed that it lacks basic features that countless other $5.00, $10.00, $15.00, $40.00, $45.00, $55.00, $90.00 keyboards have. Why is it that every keyboard company in the whole world can figure out how to make a keyboard work on both PS/2 and USB, except Topre?
Why does a $40.00 Rosewill work on PS/2 and USB but not a $300.00 Topre?
Why does a $44.99 Ducky work on PS/2 and USB but not a $300.00 Topre?
Why does a $90.00 CM QFR work on PS/2 and USB but not a $300.00 Topre?
Is it because Ducky, Rosewill, and CoolerMaster are real keyboard companies and Topre is not?
Is paying $300.00 for a set of rubber domes not supplying enough profit to Topre to hire some high school kid to fix their controller? How is it that countless other keyboard companies make and sell rubberdome keyboards for $20.00 and less and stay in business? What is that $280.00 of profit paying for? It sure isn't paying for one single computer programmer to fix their controller.
Can we now please go back to the actual topic, which is about mushy rubberdomes not made by Topre?
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You are basically trolling topre users by calling them defective which is completely false, no where is topre advertising ps2 on products like the 87U. Who cares if the controller doesn't support an adapter? You've done this are several posts on geek hack too since you joined; You have talked similar lies about the Topre and HHKB. Because of this i think it is completely valid we call you out on your bull$h!t in your topic.
If compatibility is your reason for PS/2, USB has been on computers for 15 years. Whatever computer you are using that doesn't have usb ports is not worthy of a modern mechanical keyboard.
If NKRO is your reason for PS/2 then you are a sucker. Needing NKRO is all in your head; its a placebo . 6KRO is all you need; it's fact.
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If NKRO is your reason for PS/2 then you are a sucker. Needing NKRO is all in your head; its a placebo . 6KRO is all you need; it's fact.
And, as has been pointed out previously, even without device-specific drivers, doing NKRO is not a problem for USB *except* in the case where you're using boot protocol. Need NKRO for entering a set of boot parameters (about the only time you're likely to be restricted to boot protocol on a keyboard)? No, thought not.
As for USB itself, there's nothing requiring a keyboard to use 1.1, or, even /low speed/ 1.1. Full speed USB 1.1 would allow somewhere upwards of 150,000 keyboard packets per second. I doubt our friend can type that fast.
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Why is it that every keyboard company in the whole world can figure out how to make a keyboard work on both PS/2 and USB, except Topre?
Because they made a conscious decision to not support PS/2, something that you seem incapable of grasping.
And in the current day and age, I'd argue that USB is actually available on MORE devices than PS2, by a large margin. I've never seen a phone with a PS2 port, but there are hundreds of millions of phones out there with USB ports.
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PS/2 is universal and works everywhere.
USB1.1 is not universal. It only works on devices with a USB 1.1 port.
Millions of electronic devices in the world have a PS/2 port but no USB 1.1 port. These devices require a PS/2 keyboard because USB keyboards cannot connect to them. You cannot connect a Topre keyboard to a PS/2 port with any adapter.
Millions of electronic devices in the world have a USB 1.1 port but no PS/2 port. So what? You can still plug your PS/2 keyboard into your USB 1.1 port with a $10.00 adapter or a $5.00 adapter or a $3.00 adapter.
Also it is completely ludicrous to pay $300.00 for a keyboard that is so badly designed that it lacks basic features that countless other $5.00, $10.00, $15.00, $40.00, $45.00, $55.00, $90.00 keyboards have. Why is it that every keyboard company in the whole world can figure out how to make a keyboard work on both PS/2 and USB, except Topre?
Why does a $40.00 Rosewill work on PS/2 and USB but not a $300.00 Topre?
Why does a $44.99 Ducky work on PS/2 and USB but not a $300.00 Topre?
Why does a $90.00 CM QFR work on PS/2 and USB but not a $300.00 Topre?
Is it because Ducky, Rosewill, and CoolerMaster are real keyboard companies and Topre is not?
Is paying $300.00 for a set of rubber domes not supplying enough profit to Topre to hire some high school kid to fix their controller? How is it that countless other keyboard companies make and sell rubberdome keyboards for $20.00 and less and stay in business? What is that $280.00 of profit paying for? It sure isn't paying for one single computer programmer to fix their controller.
Can we now please go back to the actual topic, which is about mushy rubberdomes not made by Topre?
Target market.
Do I really need to elaborate?
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Is it because Ducky, Rosewill, and CoolerMaster are real keyboard companies and Topre is not?
It is because they choose not to. It obviously isn't hard..it isn't that they can't, they obviously see it as completely unnecessary. I'm sure you'd agree that is why even if you don't agree with the decision.
The weird thing is, you're sticking to this purely based on some ideology. You can't possibly buy a keyboard that doesn't support PS2 even though there isn't a real reason why you want PS2. Do you have some weird machine that you'd want to buy a HHKB for but can't because it doesn't have USB ports? That would be odd...or some ancient gaming machine that can't handle USB keyboards properly? I don't really get it..
There are some advantages to PS2..but they're almost insignificant...this compared to the convenience of USB....I'm not saying don't use PS2..but you seriously harp on about it on this forum like it there is some serious flaw...the only flaw I see is the logic in getting caught up in that...
It is definitely near the bottom if not the bottom of the list of features I'd care about on a keyboard....
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You are basically trolling topre users by calling them defective which is completely false, no where is topre advertising ps2 on products like the 87U. Who cares if the controller doesn't support an adapter? You've done this are several posts on geek hack too since you joined; You have talked similar lies about the Topre and HHKB. Because of this i think it is completely valid we call you out on your bull$h!t in your topic.
If compatibility is your reason for PS/2, USB has been on computers for 15 years. Whatever computer you are using that doesn't have usb ports is not worthy of a modern mechanical keyboard.
If NKRO is your reason for PS/2 then you are a sucker. Needing NKRO is all in your head; its a placebo . 6KRO is all you need; it's fact.
While I strongly agree with most parts of your post, it's not a fact that NKRO is useless. Actually, there are two counterexamples to your claim:
- Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.
- I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.
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I suppose that I use fairly conventional gear, but I have had VERY LITTLE problem with a wide variety of adapters, now or in years past. I have gone back and forth with all manner of keyboards and quite a few computers.
Right now, I have a monstrous Model F-122 with a Teensy plugged in to an Acer laptop (and, of course, the Model F probably weighs twice what the laptop weighs).
In fact, I have hardly had any problems in years, if my memory serves me, except with laptops running on battery power and the rare oddball combination in Ubuntu.
But, I have never owned a Topre, so maybe there are compatibility issues, and this has not become a complete troller tanz.
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You are basically trolling topre users by calling them defective which is completely false, no where is topre advertising ps2 on products like the 87U. Who cares if the controller doesn't support an adapter? You've done this are several posts on geek hack too since you joined; You have talked similar lies about the Topre and HHKB. Because of this i think it is completely valid we call you out on your bull$h!t in your topic.
If compatibility is your reason for PS/2, USB has been on computers for 15 years. Whatever computer you are using that doesn't have usb ports is not worthy of a modern mechanical keyboard.
If NKRO is your reason for PS/2 then you are a sucker. Needing NKRO is all in your head; its a placebo . 6KRO is all you need; it's fact.
While I strongly agree with most parts of your post, it's not a fact that NKRO is useless. Actually, there are two counterexamples to your claim:
- Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.
- I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.
that's a fair argument. i should have added the words "most commonly" or something like that. You get my point though, its rare that anyone would need NKRO and if they do i would rather hear reasons like you just did instead of just hearing "i need to have it"
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- Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.
Sometimes when I type fast I have 3 fingers down on keys... they are in the process of releasing the key but have not actually gone up the whole 2mm to trigger the KEYUP event, when I then press down 4 more keys (usually on my other hand). This action requires 7kro and fails on $300.00 Topre keyboards.
- I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.
I do the same thing. I have tons of oldskool games that, for whatever reason, were programmed to use the keyboard. Some of them use joysticks for players 1 and 2 and players 3 and 4 must use keyboard.
I even have a few games that we played with 3 ppl on the keyboard at once. 6kro on a Topre completely and utterly fails when playing these games. I won't pay $300.00 for a keyboard that can't play a simple fun game during a retro gaming party when a $40.00 Cherry switch or Alps keyboard works perfectly.
@USB 1.1 Fanbois and Topre Fanbois
Why should a 2012 keyboard be worse than a 1985 keyboard? It doesn't make sense.
But the bottom line is that I need connectivity to PS/2 devices. When I walk into a factory filled with robots built in the 1980s or 1990s and I try to plug in a Topre it fails. Try to use an adapter: it fails. Any keyboard that suffers some weird anti-PS/2 bigotry just isn't going to work on PS/2 devices. Pretending that PS/2 devices all magically vanished isn't going to help anything.
I require a keyboard that works on PS/2. No amount of trolling me is ever going to change that. I will never buy a keyboard that has been rigged to not work on the millions of PS/2 electronic devices that exist on planet Earth.
I have explained over and over and over and over and over again in different threads why PS/2 is better than USB1.1. I have explained in great detail (more detail that this msg) why I need a PS/2 compatible keyboard. All the detached keyboards I have ever bought in my whole entire life were PS/2 compatible. All they keyboards I buy in the near future will be PS/2 compatible. I just recently bought 2 Rosewills which are miraculously compatible with PS/2 and the obsolete USB 1.1 protocol. I also bought a CM QFR (not yet arrived) which is also miraculously compatible with PS/2 and USB 1.1.
Harassing me and insulting me is not going to change my requirements.
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Why should a 2012 keyboard be worse than a 1985 keyboard? It doesn't make sense.
This is completely subjective. Totally, and utterly, opinion.
But the bottom line is that I need connectivity to PS/2 devices. When I walk into a factory filled with robots built in the 1980s or 1990s and I try to plug in a Topre it fails. Try to use an adapter: it fails. Any keyboard that suffers some weird anti-PS/2 bigotry just isn't going to work on PS/2 devices. Pretending that PS/2 devices all magically vanished isn't going to help anything.
Nobody's pretending anything of the sort. You require PS/2. Fine, great. There's a ton of people who don't. Who's right? Who's correct? Nobody. Everybody. You just aren't Topre's market, that's all. No need to spend so much time and effort trashing them when obviously they make keyboards for a target audience that is much different than you.
I require a keyboard that works on PS/2. No amount of trolling me is ever going to change that. I will never buy a keyboard that has been rigged to not work on the millions of PS/2 electronic devices that exist on planet Earth.
Nobody's trying to troll you. It just rubs us the wrong way when you come in here all bashing Topre keyboards for what amounts to personal preference.
I have explained over and over and over and over and over again in different threads why PS/2 is better than USB1.1. I have explained in great detail (more detail that this msg) why I need a PS/2 compatible keyboard. All the detached keyboards I have ever bought in my whole entire life were PS/2 compatible. All they keyboards I buy in the near future will be PS/2 compatible. I just recently bought 2 Rosewills which are miraculously compatible with PS/2 and the obsolete USB 1.1 protocol. I also bought a CM QFR (not yet arrived) which is also miraculously compatible with PS/2 and USB 1.1.
Harassing me and insulting me is not going to change my requirements.
We're not trying to, but you make it difficult when you come in here and bash keyboards that people actually like. The people who like Topre keyboards love them, they work for them, and they have no problem with them. They obviously aren't your cup of tea. That's fine. But don't keep harping on them because you don't like them, and don't sit there telling people over and over again that your opinion is fact. It screams of bigotry. And that's what gets under peoples' skin and causes them to get all defensive and on your case about it.
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snip
We're not trying to make you change your requirements, what people are saying is that lack of support for a connector that is nearly obsolete does not make it a defect product. Very few typists will notice the lack of NKRO, and while you might argue that gamers will sometimes need it, guess what, gamers aren't their target market. They don't care about what gamers want. They don't care what factories use. Target ****ing market. From what I've read; Realforce targets their keyboards primarily against office workers in Asia.
Also, you say you're an "indy game coder", why would you need your keyboard to work in factories with old machinery? Even if that's your job, why would you buy a $300 board to use in factories?
TLDR;
Nobody is trying to tell you what you want or need from a board, people are just calling you out when you say stupid ****.
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looks like this totalchaos is an unusually successful troll.
I have a monstrous Model F-122
i envy you much, bad-tempered old man.
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Target markets indeed. Gotta have them all! Buy them, Build them, Sell them, Trade them! We work hard for our money, let's reward ourselves :)
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- Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.
Sometimes when I type fast I have 3 fingers down on keys... they are in the process of releasing the key but have not actually gone up the whole 2mm to trigger the KEYUP event, when I then press down 4 more keys (usually on my other hand). This action requires 7kro and fails on $300.00 Topre keyboards.
- I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.
I do the same thing. I have tons of oldskool games that, for whatever reason, were programmed to use the keyboard. Some of them use joysticks for players 1 and 2 and players 3 and 4 must use keyboard.
I even have a few games that we played with 3 ppl on the keyboard at once. 6kro on a Topre completely and utterly fails when playing these games. I won't pay $300.00 for a keyboard that can't play a simple fun game during a retro gaming party when a $40.00 Cherry switch or Alps keyboard works perfectly.
Why not run multiple USB keyboards? So that people actually have space to play and it eliminates the 6KRO for two people problem (or at least I think it does since I'm trying it on two 6KRO keyboards right now)? PS2 isn't exclusive to NKRO..there are plenty of old school keyboards that aren't NKRO and are PS2..one of my favorite old school keyboards (Focus 2001) is PS2 and 2KRO...How did you play those games back then when we all had 2KRO on PS2? Model F wasn't 2KRO but Model M was...
A smarter person might come up with alternatives knowing PS2 interfaces won't be around forever if you need them for your retro games with 4 people no less...I just gave you a very good one..even with NKRO I'd try to get each person their own set of keys rather than try sharing...that is what we did when we were kids and had only one keyboard and no money...
This doesn't even get into the fact that I think Topre fails for gaming in general anyways..I don't think I'd want to game on it....but apparently even though you have several mech keyboards, each one must be able to be used for everything...
[/list]
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- Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.
Sometimes when I type fast I have 3 fingers down on keys... they are in the process of releasing the key but have not actually gone up the whole 2mm to trigger the KEYUP event, when I then press down 4 more keys (usually on my other hand). This action requires 7kro and fails on $300.00 Topre keyboards.
- I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.
I do the same thing. I have tons of oldskool games that, for whatever reason, were programmed to use the keyboard. Some of them use joysticks for players 1 and 2 and players 3 and 4 must use keyboard.
I even have a few games that we played with 3 ppl on the keyboard at once. 6kro on a Topre completely and utterly fails when playing these games. I won't pay $300.00 for a keyboard that can't play a simple fun game during a retro gaming party when a $40.00 Cherry switch or Alps keyboard works perfectly.
Why not run multiple USB keyboards? So that people actually have space to play and it eliminates the 6KRO for two people problem (or at least I think it does since I'm trying it on two 6KRO keyboards right now)? PS2 isn't exclusive to NKRO..there are plenty of old school keyboards that aren't NKRO and are PS2..one of my favorite old school keyboards (Focus 2001) is PS2 and 2KRO...How did you play those games back then when we all had 2KRO on PS2? Model F wasn't 2KRO but Model M was...
A smarter person might come up with alternatives knowing PS2 interfaces won't be around forever if you need them for your retro games with 4 people no less...I just gave you a very good one..even with NKRO I'd try to get each person their own set of keys rather than try sharing...that is what we did when we were kids and had only one keyboard and no money...
This doesn't even get into the fact that I think Topre fails for gaming in general anyways..I don't think I'd want to game on it....but apparently even though you have several mech keyboards, each one must be able to be used for everything...
[/list]
Gaming on vintage keyboards sucks. I tried to play some very simple racing games, and two pressed arrows blocked the third one I occasionally needed.
Carrying more keyboards (and most people don't have even 6KRO keyboards) to parties/school by bus, in a backpack — sucks too.
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Why not run multiple USB keyboards?
I said "oldskool games". That means games from 1980s and 1990s which are still very fun to play but exist only on systems which do not have USB keyboard support and never will. These games are free to download from the internet and supply endless hours of fun for no charge.
> But u can buy a USB card for those old computers!
Yes u can but then it wrecks the games as the CPU has to constantly poll the USB devices asking "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" its completely ridiculous.
Forcing old computers to use USB in the best case makes the games all sluggish with dropped frames or in the worst case stops them from working at all.
Obviously new games made for new systems can use multiple USB 1.1 keyboards if they like. But then there is not much reason to use keyboards at all. New games can use real controllers like the Xbox 360 controller or PS2 controllers, etc.
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Gaming on vintage keyboards sucks.
You mean "gaming on garbage vintage keyboards sucks."
I tried to play some very simple racing games, and two pressed arrows blocked the third one I occasionally needed.
You were using an awful keyboard.
I have vintage 1980s and 1990s keyboards that are better than that and millions of them were produced so they were not rare.
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How did you play those games back then when we all had 2KRO on PS2?
If you paid money for a 2kro keyboard then you got ripped off, sorry. 2kro is really abyssmal, even by 1980s standards.
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Which games don't run in any emulator?
Which keyboards do you mean?
You keep saying something about keyboard science everywhere except this thread, it's been quite the opposite here.
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How did you play those games back then when we all had 2KRO on PS2?
If you paid money for a 2kro keyboard then you got ripped off, sorry. 2kro is really abyssmal, even by 1980s standards.
With such knowledge and equipment already, why are you coming here asking for help in finding a keyboard? You already seem to have such wonderful vintage keyboards that do what you want. Also, I'd have not even replied to start with to this thread other than for the fact you so clearly made a false statement about Topre (re: defective) and I am not a Topre fangirl, as I have never used one or owned one.
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Gaming on vintage keyboards sucks.
You mean "gaming on garbage vintage keyboards sucks."
I tried to play some very simple racing games, and two pressed arrows blocked the third one I occasionally needed.
You were using an awful keyboard.
I have vintage 1980s and 1990s keyboards that are better than that and millions of them were produced so they were not rare.
Back then 2KRO was pretty standard if I remember correctly...Model Ms were 2KRO...Many Alps based keyboards were 2KRO back then...Most keyboards in general were 2KRO ( 2KRO does not mean only 2 keys but depending on the combination you might be stuck with a max of 2KRO)...NKRO was quite unusual. Which keyboards were you using from back then? Since you haven't used Alps or Buckling Spring, this will prove to be an interesting response...
Also, why wouldn't you just run an emulator? You can clock them down if speed is an issue..what is actually the point of running it on an old old pc?
The weird thing w/ your argument is you start off saying you can't use 6KRO on USB because 6KRO won't satisfy your legacy multi game situations....and you end it saying you can't use USB anyways. Which is it?
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I googled around for MS Natural 4000 force graphs. Couldn't find one. Does one exist somewhere?
There does not seem to be any way of removing that giant wrist rest?
That wrist rest is a deal breaker for me as it sits right where my mouse goes.
I am not a fan of split keyboards anyway. I typed on some kind of "ergo" keyboard that looked similar to the MS Natural 4000 but it was mostly white as I recall. It was back around 2000-2004 time frame. It was definitely not ergonomic. The keys were very painful as it took a lot of force to overcome the rubberdome and them *BAM* u smacked into the PCB. Also I found the split to be very uncomfortable. I wouldn't mind a small split with small angle or no angle.
Any other keyboards as mushy as MS Natural 4000? Even mushier would be better :) And less force too :)
Preferably just a keyboard, not an entire dashboard :p
Like all rubber dome keyboards, the MS 4000 can be easily modified to reduce the actuation pressure. Just carefully cut a hole in the rubber dome where the crease is. I've done this to at least half a dozen keyboards, including the 4000 MS. I just recently tossed an MS 4000 modified in this manner for other reasons (binding on off-center keypresses).
As for the wrist rest, I think that you'll be stuck with it. There is PCB under it if I remember correctly, due to having two buttons in the middle. I'll look around if I have any photos of the open case.
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Here, I found one! It looks like you could move that PCB.
[attach=1]
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Here is a photo of cutting slits in the rubber membrane to reduce the actuation pressure. I've since learned that actual holes work better, as slits take the pressure off the end of the stroke but hole take pressure off the beginning of the stroke. Yes, my fingertips are sensitive enough to tell (that is a curse, not a blessing).
[attach=1]
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Here is a photo of cutting slits in the rubber membrane to reduce the actuation pressure. I've since learned that actual holes work better, as slits take the pressure off the end of the stroke but hole take pressure off the beginning of the stroke.
(Attachment Link)
O.... M..... G....
Keyboard Science of the Year award to you!
This is the most wonderfully amazingly useful piece of information I have ever been given on GeekHack!
You are saying I can mush up any old rubberdome keyboard I want by simply cutting holes in the domes??
So I spent $500.00 on Cherry Switch keyboards (so far) for nothing?
I have stacks of PS/2 rubberdome keyboards laying around here that work perfectly but the domes are far to stiff. They used to sell them everywhere for $5.00 and give them away free at Fry's with $99.00 computers.
But once I collapse the dome with large input of energy I suddenly fly down into the membrane/pcb at high velocity in a painful crash. >:D
So how on Earth do I cut a hole into a rubberdome instead of a slit?
What tool do I use? What diameter of hole do I set the tool to use?
I assume the tool I use must be very accurate since a too big hole would make the dome collapse too easily?
I would absolutely LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE to try out a 30g rubberdome keyboard! 45g would be nice too!
Have u tried other things such as:
Make a small hole in the top of the rubberdome and poke pinprick holes in the sides of the rubberdome? The pinpricks would weaken the dome in another location without completely destroying the structural integrity of the cup rubber. :)
Is there some factor about the way the membrane is made that causes a rubberdome keyboard to be more or less mushy?
I want MOAR Mushiness! ;D
Yes, my fingertips are sensitive enough to tell (that is a curse, not a blessing).
I know what u mean. I have ridiculously hypersensitive fingers. I can feel the bumps on a perfectly smooth piece of paper and other weird things. The volume level on my nerves is permanently turned all the way to maximum. :(
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I just recently tossed an MS 4000 modified in this manner for other reasons (binding on off-center keypresses).
You are not supposed to toss rubberdomes. You are supposed to cut out the insides and then you have............ wait for it.......
Free Ghetto O-Rings! :cool:
Useful on all Cherry switch keyboards!
(assuming the diameter of the circle is the correct size. Some rubberdomes are the perfect size, others not.)
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You are saying I can mush up any old rubberdome keyboard I want by simply cutting holes in the domes??
So I spent $500.00 on Cherry Switch keyboards (so far) for nothing?
Every rubber dome that I've come across I've been able to modify. But that only makes the keys easier to press, there are other issues with rubber domes, such as the shock of bottoming out.
You did not spend the money on the Cherries for nothing. I am right now typing on a Cherry Red board and I love the switches. The hard plastic keycap is another matter. I like to cover them in leather!
But once I collapse the dome with large input of energy I suddenly fly down into the membrane/pcb at high velocity in a painful crash. >:D
That is why I recommend taking the pressure off the top of the stroke and not the bottom.
So how on Earth do I cut a hole into a rubberdome instead of a slit?
What tool do I use? What diameter of hole do I set the tool to use?
I assume the tool I use must be very accurate since a too big hole would make the dome collapse too easily?
Have u tried other things such as:
Make a small hole in the top of the rubberdome and poke pinprick holes in the sides of the rubberdome? The pinpricks would weaken the dome in another location without completely destroying the structural integrity of the cup rubber. :)
I use a small pair of curved scissors meant for cutting fingernails. I'll upload a photo.
You will need to do lots of experimentation to decide how large and how many holes to cut. I usually do the left pinky fingers first, very conservatively, then after typing on that for a few days I go back in and cut away. I have tried poking holes, but I do not remember that giving any satisfactory result. However, I encourage you to experiment and see what works for your fingers and with your rubber/silicon dome materials. There is quite a bit of variety of materials used in the domes, which is why I test type on a subset of the keys first before modding the entire board.
Yes, my fingertips are sensitive enough to tell (that is a curse, not a blessing).
I know what u mean. I have ridiculously hypersensitive fingers. I can feel the bumps on a perfectly smooth piece of paper and other weird things. The volume level on my nerves is permanently turned all the way to maximum. :(
I am not alone! I cannot feel the bumps on smooth paper, though. I seem to be tuned to pressure, not spacial resolution.
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You are saying I can mush up any old rubberdome keyboard I want by simply cutting holes in the domes??
So I spent $500.00 on Cherry Switch keyboards (so far) for nothing?
Every rubber dome that I've come across I've been able to modify. But that only makes the keys easier to press, there are other issues with rubber domes, such as the shock of bottoming out.
You did not spend the money on the Cherries for nothing. I am right now typing on a Cherry Red board and I love the switches.
Me too.
The hard plastic keycap is another matter. I like to cover them in leather!
Aha! I had heard rumors of your existence. But the great rootwyrm calamtiy of 2012 destroyed all evidence of your existence!
I am covering mine in 10A rubber, when it arrives. I hope it works out.
Having leather covered keys sounds fun tho. Like caressing a really really raw hamburger. :))
So how on Earth do I cut a hole into a rubberdome instead of a slit?
What tool do I use? What diameter of hole do I set the tool to use?
I assume the tool I use must be very accurate since a too big hole would make the dome collapse too easily?
I use a small pair of curved scissors meant for cutting fingernails.
Waaaay too much pain for me. I will try to figure out something simpler and more direct. I will probably destroy all my rubberdomes before I actually figure out a method that works 100%
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Aha! I had heard rumors of your existence. But the great rootwyrm calamtiy of 2012 destroyed all evidence of your existence!
Geekhack is not the only venue in which my existence is in doubt (http://tomsastroblog.com/archives/13880).
EDIT: The linked post is an astronomy riddle, one of which I write weekly for on Toms Astronomy Blog. I do remember some Geekhackers talking about astronomy before the Great Calamity, so of those I suggest that you go check out the site. I post a new riddle every Saturday, though the linked riddle was posted after I missed two consecutive Saturdays, hence my existence in doubt. Also, the wording of that post was based on a running joke by the previous riddle-poster.