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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: NDA on Thu, 20 December 2012, 19:34:04
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Hi,
I have a question about these keyboards. I have read that Cooler Master uses the same OEM costar for one of CM keyboards as Filco for their keyboards but are they built to similar standards. For instance the Filco keyboard I am looking at http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=805 (http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=805) claims to use a through hole key switch and diodes for every key switch to prevent "ghosting" which I feel would be somewhat important for the gaming and typeing I do. I have looked around and I can't find any other keyboards built like the filco I guess thats why they demand the premium they do unless it's just marketing nonsense.
The Cooler master keyboard I am interested in is the CM Storm Quick fire pro and claims to be a USB 2.0 keyboard but is it a true usb 2.0 interface as this is the only keyboard I have seen that has this. So basically my question would be are these two brands similar and quality and are filco keyboards really worth the premium?
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I have both. I personally like the Cooler Master because i like the detachable USB cord. It doesn't get in the way when i put the keyboard on my laptop and type. The cord doesn't rub against the screen. People say the Filco is better quality but honestly i don't see it. They both feel the same. I think the Cooler Master is fine and you are saving a lot of money as well. In fact, i think i am going to sell my Filco Red because WASD is coming out with a tenkeyless model and i will try that one. Filco isn't all its cracked up to be in my opinion. I am curious as to what other members think though. :)
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I don't know for the CM, but I really like my filco. Still, I haven't read a bad review on a CM and it cost much less. So both are good I think.
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Well, I don't think Filco has any advantages in terms of the ghosting. They both have NKRO which is more than enough for anyone.
IMost will say that the Filco has a more standard look, slightly nicer stock keycaps, a non-detachable and maybe a higher quality PCB and soldering. Otherwise they are pretty similar. Also the filco is better if you want to get a aluminium case because everything is designed for it.
But I went with the CM QFR, because I feel the difference is not worth 2x the price. That's just me though.
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Ghosting is just marketing terms for nothing at all.
Does not mean anything nor is it better in anyway.
CMstorm is cheaper so I would buy those.
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CM Pro is not made by Costar, so you don't want that one.
Choose from either CM QFR or CM storm trigger. Both are made by costar.
Rosewill RK9000 series is also made by Costar.
If you're looking for a full size keyboard, this is what I would recommend.
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Filco is worth the premium if you're going to be sticking to the hobby. Why get the knock off when you can just get the real thing. Plus it has a higher quality PCB... but the quality of the PCB isn't worth the price difference. Filco feels better than a QFR, by a very minuscule and unnoticeable amount (which is also an opinion). CM Storm if you're on a budget.
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For instance the Filco keyboard I am looking at http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=805 (http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=805) claims to use a through hole key switch and diodes for every key switch to prevent "ghosting" which I feel would be somewhat important for the gaming and typeing I do.
Lots of keyboards have no ghosting. For instance, the Rosewill keyboards, which are frequently on sale for $55.00 or less have NKRO and no ghosting. Any keyboard with NKRO will have no ghosting.
It really does suck to get a keyboard with ghosting. I had one once before many years ago it was highly annoying.
Just make sure whatever keyboard you get that it says NKRO and you will be safe.
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again... anti-ghosting is marketing term
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...Filco feels better than a QFR, by a[n] ...unnoticeable amount...
(http://emotibot.net/pix/201.jpg)
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There are no ghosts in my keyboard, but you can get one here if you want: http://www.techkeys.us/custom-keys.php
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snip
Almost unnoticeable*? Everyone else thinks I'm crazy :)
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I'm just messing with you. It made me laugh.
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CM QFR if cost is important (and you don't mind the keycaps).
Filco if cost is less of a concern.
Personally I went QFR and intend on getting a set of custom keycaps. Total price approxaimtely the same as a Filco.
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Filco due to awesome customer service. They (Diatec) mailed me free replacement parts twice now while my keyboard was out of warranty.
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I have both and I would choose the Filco if I had to make a choice. They are very similar though, so it's not that big of a difference to me.
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Mainly looks and aesthetics is the main differnec.
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OTOH Carter from CoolerMaster lurks around this forum from time to time. Anyone from Filco here?
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Filco due to awesome customer service. They (Diatec) mailed me free replacement parts twice now while my keyboard was out of warranty.
^^That suggests you had something break on your Filco twice. Wonder if many have needed CM replacements yet?
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Haha, good one. So I heard you are in flames, is that true? Or was it an unknown vortex?
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Filco and CM may look and feel the same... until you open it up. This video below (mine btw) shows exactly what the differences are. I did mention a few things about the PCB, but what I did NOT mention was that even though they're both made by Costar, they are not made to the same standards. Filco has the higher quality PCB. But Coolermaster wins in the value aspect though.
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I was just deciding between the two of these as well. I went to MicroCenter multiple times to play with the CM QFR and just really didn't like the tenkeyless setup. Also that rubberized coating had me worried about retaining dust/grime and I didn't really feel like buying a keyboard and immediately sanding it down. Call me lazy lol.
I also didn't like the storm trigger's extra edging. There's like half an inch of extra plastic from where the keys end to the edge of the board. And there's that slight cutout near the arrows. If I'm already paying good money for a board, I'd rather get something that's perfect for me.
So I picked up a Filco Ninja ^_^. Filco has a nice simple layout with no extra edging and it's really good quality. Plus the Ninja caps are sweet.
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Filco has the higher quality PCB. But Coolermaster wins in the value aspect though.
Are you claiming this based on the single layer in the CM? Because if you hunt through Carter's posts this was a deliberate choice they made because in testing they felt the double layer negatively impacted something... feel or noise or some such.
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The one thing that turns me off about Diatec / Filco is they won't let a solid seller like MechanicalKeyboards.com sell their keyboards in the US. They hand it off to KeyboardCompany to take care of which are good sellers but take forever to keep Amazon well stocked.
To be fair to them, they don't HAVE to sell on Amazon. They're basically running a second store for our convenience. I can imagine one store being tough to run as is.
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CM Pro is not made by Costar, so you don't want that one.
Choose from either CM QFR or CM storm trigger. Both are made by costar.
Rosewill RK9000 series is also made by Costar.
If you're looking for a full size keyboard, this is what I would recommend.
Not being made by Costar doesn't make the QuickFire Pro badly built. In fact it is very well built (depends on how you feel about the stiff microusb plug.) I can say it is significantly better built than the Costar built Rosewills.
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I don't believe it's for our convenience - they are making a lot of money off it. If it is an inconvenience they should step aside and let a US company handle it - as long as MechanicalKeyboards doesn't sell to the UK.
How do you figure they're making a lot of money off of it? First, prices are higher on KeyboardCo's site (may change due to variations in currency exchange rates), if even only slightly. Second, there is Prime 2-day shipping on Amazon. As far as I know, that comes out of their cut, which already means less money for them. The only thing it does for them is make it more efficient to ship around the US and probably helps them make more sales around here as well. That being said, if people wanted a Filco and there was only one place to get them, then people would buy them regardless. So, it may be in their favor, but I do think it is for our convenience that they are sold as such.
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But they're handling it. It may not be up to your standards, but it's getting done. How would it be any different if MechanicalKeyboards was handling it? The point of the matter is Filco has an arrangement with KeyboardCo. Until that changes or someone else can get in on the action, then this is the way it is.
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If you were getting a revenue stream, and had the sole right to that revenue stream for a specific market, and then someone told you to let your competitor handle it?
HAHAHA you'd laugh and carry on. Merry Christmas.
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^Exactly. And as I said, they also offer an extra convenience (which admittedly may be beneficial to them as well) of selling from inside the US via Amazon, whereas in all reality, they could just ship everything from the UK.
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Filco has the higher quality PCB. But Coolermaster wins in the value aspect though.
Are you claiming this based on the single layer in the CM? Because if you hunt through Carter's posts this was a deliberate choice they made because in testing they felt the double layer negatively impacted something... feel or noise or some such.
No, single vs dual layer PCB was not a factor. You can have high quality single-layer PCBs. Anyways, PCB material seems different, with Filco having a higher quality. What the PCB is made of might be the same, but the quality seems different. Also, the through-holes for the switch pins has pads only on the top surface for CM, while Filco has pads that are on the top surface and goes all the way inside the holes. The trace/pads are less prone to being ripped out, but of course this probably only affects desoldering.
I'm not discrediting what Carter said, but I think the move for single-layer and cheaper material is more of a business decision to save on costs for mass production. These savings could then be passed on to end users. It sounds more pleasing to say that they purposely choose cheaper manufacturing processes to prevent negative effects, than it is to say they did it to save money.
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Filco has the higher quality PCB. But Coolermaster wins in the value aspect though.
Are you claiming this based on the single layer in the CM? Because if you hunt through Carter's posts this was a deliberate choice they made because in testing they felt the double layer negatively impacted something... feel or noise or some such.
No, single vs dual layer PCB was not a factor. You can have high quality single-layer PCBs. Anyways, PCB material seems different, with Filco having a higher quality. What the PCB is made of might be the same, but the quality seems different. Also, the through-holes for the switch pins has pads only on the top surface for CM, while Filco has pads that are on the top surface and goes all the way inside the holes. The trace/pads are less prone to being ripped out, but of course this probably only affects desoldering.
I'm not discrediting what Carter said, but I think the move for single-layer and cheaper material is more of a business decision to save on costs for mass production. These savings could then be passed on to end users. It sounds more pleasing to say that they purposely choose cheaper manufacturing processes to prevent negative effects, than it is to say they did it to save money.
If you look at it this way... even if failure rate was twice as high on the "lower quality" pcb, which is still "unlikely". The fact that you can buy 2 cm for 1 filco would make up for it..
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Filco due to awesome customer service. They (Diatec) mailed me free replacement parts twice now while my keyboard was out of warranty.
^^That suggests you had something break on your Filco twice. Wonder if many have needed CM replacements yet?
One problem was a slight misalignment of the case, another may possibly be a problem with the IC, but may be a Windows problem.
As for CM, I've had 4 of them, and all had warped space bars. The CM Storm Pro I got wobbled when I typed on it.
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CM makes unbranded keyboards now for people who dislike branding.
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I bought a Filco because I need a full size version, and CM Storm currently doesn't have that.
And no CM Storm Trigger/TK/Pro are not the same. Though Carter did mentioned it somewhere that "It might be worth the wait", so maybe they'll have it someday :P
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I bought a Filco because I need a full size version, and CM Storm currently doesn't have that.
And no CM Storm Trigger/TK/Pro are not the same. Though Carter did mentioned it somewhere that "It might be worth the wait", so maybe they'll have it someday :P
Why didn't you get the Rosewill 9000 then, same $64 price tag in the USA.
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I bought a Filco because I need a full size version, and CM Storm currently doesn't have that.
And no CM Storm Trigger/TK/Pro are not the same. Though Carter did mentioned it somewhere that "It might be worth the wait", so maybe they'll have it someday :P
Why didn't you get the Rosewill 9000 then, same $64 price tag in the USA.
I didn't want to take the risk with the mini b connector. No one knows for sure if it's fixed or not yet.
That and I prefer less quantity and more quality :P
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I bought a Filco because I need a full size version, and CM Storm currently doesn't have that.
And no CM Storm Trigger/TK/Pro are not the same. Though Carter did mentioned it somewhere that "It might be worth the wait", so maybe they'll have it someday :P
Why didn't you get the Rosewill 9000 then, same $64 price tag in the USA.
I didn't want to take the risk with the mini b connector. No one knows for sure if it's fixed or not yet.
That and I prefer less quantity and more quality :P
Um... that is a none issue, it is such an easy fix... like the keyboard is unaffected, only the connector.. at worst you'll have to solder 4 wires directly to the keyboard...
you might not even have to solder, just strip the ends of the connectors, and twist.. and put some tape on it... seriously, that USB issue is way way overblown.
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cm qf pro is rubbish
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If you call everything but the best rubbish it soon devalues the term and people soon are not able to distinguish between bad, mediocre and good products. CM Quckfire pro is not a rubbish keyboard. It is with cheap finish and definitely not the keyboard to end all keyboards, and there are improvements to be made, but it is okish if you are on a tight budget. And in the prices it is sold currently in the USA it is worthed even if you buy it as a donor board. I am somewhat pleased with my new one with reds.
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Filco!
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If you are going to buy only one keyboard and you want mechnical keyboard buy filco but if you like mechanical keyboard youll have both soon or later.
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cooler master doesnt give you the same sense of superiority
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For instance the Filco keyboard I am looking at http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=805 (http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=805) claims to use a through hole key switch and diodes for every key switch to prevent "ghosting" which I feel would be somewhat important for the gaming and typeing I do.
Lots of keyboards have no ghosting. For instance, the Rosewill keyboards, which are frequently on sale for $55.00 or less have NKRO and no ghosting. Any keyboard with NKRO will have no ghosting.
It really does suck to get a keyboard with ghosting. I had one once before many years ago it was highly annoying.
Just make sure whatever keyboard you get that it says NKRO and you will be safe.
You've confused two different concepts. NKRO and no ghosting are only slightly related.
NKRO means the keyboard can send more than 6 keys at once to the host. The USB HID spec defines 7 bytes for sending active keys to the host: 6 non-modifier keys, plus one byte of bit-flags for the modifiers.
"NKRO" is typically implemented in a couple of ways. One is to support PS/2 mode, which places no constraints on the number of active keys when the keyboard is physically connected via PS/2 (under USB, the 6 keys + modifiers limit still remains). The other way is to implement a USB hub within the keyboard and to break the keys up into multiple USB keyboards (e.g. Noppoo Choc Mini).
Anti-ghosting refers to the measures used to remove (or mitigate) ghost keystrokes. Ghosts occur when 3 active keys make up three points of a rectangle on the physical matrix. This causes the fourth "corner" to go hot. This is why keyboards with no anti-ghosting measures are called "2KRO": although not every combination of 3 or more keys will cause ghosts, you can only be guaranteed to avoid ghosts if 2 or less keys are active.
Anti-ghosting is done in a few ways. On keyboards with a PCB (i.e. not membrane) the best and most reliable way is to fit diodes between the switches, to prevent the back-flow of current. This is a 100% complete solution. Partial solutions include implementing a sparse matrix (i.e. empty points in the logical matrix to help avoid making rectangles), arranging the matrix strategically such that keys that are commonly held down (especially the modifiers) don't share the same rows and columns, and firmware logic to remove the fourth key given that three keys known to be prone to ghosting are active (obviously this is a hit-and-miss approach).
So your rule has a couple of exceptions. A keyboard may be 100% guaranteed to have no ghosting because of diodes, but this doesn't necessarily mean that it must support PS/2 and in that case you only get 6KRO. Conversely, a keyboard may support PS/2 and so be advertised as "NKRO" but may only have partial solutions to ghosting -- not the full diode-based solution.
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cooler master doesnt give you the same sense of superiority
Probably because you pay 50 to 100 dollars the price of a Filco. Which is okay with me, Filco in my book isn't worth 50 to 100 dollars more than any mechanical keyboard.
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@Urbanus
I say that in the real world, any keyboard you can buy today that is NKRO will have no ghosting.
Are you saying differently?
I think u r right that it is possible to construct an NKRO keyboard with ghosting. All I am saying is that they thankfully do not exist. Although now that u have given them the idea I am sure they are hard at work to make such a deformed creature. :'(
If there really exists an NKRO keyboard that has ghosting problems then I really want to know about it so I can warn ppl about it. I hate ghosting. I type really fast and can trigger ghosts. Ghosting is unacceptable in the 21st century.
If u know of an NKRO ghosting keyboard then please state the brand and model # for all to beware.
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If u know of an NKRO ghosting keyboard then please state the brand and model # for all to beware.
Cherry's G80 PS/2 models are NKRO but don't use diodes against ghosting. (I believe they use firmware to filter out *some* ghosts -- can anyone confirm?)
I'd be inclined to agree with you that keyboards which are mechanical, support NKRO and are marketed for "gaming" are likely to use diodes. Most of the modern mechanical boards certainly are. But Cherry's boards are targeted at the office/industrial market, so I suppose it's not such a high priority for them. There may be others.
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Um, Doesn't the term NKRO mean no keys will be missed.....
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Um, Doesn't the term NKRO mean no keys will be missed.....
Rollover is the ability of a computer keyboard to correctly handle several simultaneous keystrokes.
An entire thread on that sort of stuff. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=10063.0
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Either one you decide to get you won't regret. There's a reason why people jump immediately to the CM QFR if their budget isn't loose enough for the Filco. I recommend buying a CM QFR and then switching out the ugly keycaps with better ones.
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^ and ^^ - twins?
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^ and ^^ - twins?
haha nope :). just fans of the show
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Filco due to awesome customer service. They (Diatec) mailed me free replacement parts twice now while my keyboard was out of warranty.
^^That suggests you had something break on your Filco twice. Wonder if many have needed CM replacements yet?
One problem was a slight misalignment of the case, another may possibly be a problem with the IC, but may be a Windows problem.
As for CM, I've had 4 of them, and all had warped space bars. The CM Storm Pro I got wobbled when I typed on it.
Of the 4 CM's I've owned (and the three or so I've tested and mailed to others) none have had warped spacebars. Note that this doesn't mean that there is no wobble. Wobble is caused by different heights/tolerances/spacing on the costar-stabilizers. My Titanium spacebar has the same (Expected) degree of wobble.
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About NKRO/ghosting. "Ghosting" is generally used interchangeably with NKRO, but I do believe they are different issues. Whenever I press more than 25 or so keys on my "NKRO" keyboard: Strange things happen (In windows). TO me, NKRO is the ability for the keyboard's controller to distinguish if/when all keys are pressed (or any combination). By my definition, USB keyboards can have NKRO (and then not use it to maintain compatibility with old/slow USB HID standards)
One good reason to get a filco, despite the price, is the compatibility. Filcos are pretty common, so there are projects that replace the controller, use the case, etc. Given that the keyboards are almost otherwise the same, I have gone with CM for the better price/performance.
On my to-do list is to find out what exactly is causing my alt to not work, so that I can (In theory) fix my CMstorm, and help others with that issue. I don't use alt on that keyboard, but I still want to find out the issue.