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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 05:13:14

Title: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 05:13:14: Herrow,

I am wondering if there is a source on info on keycaps, keyboard profiles and the likes ?
So far Ive found this http://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboard_profile.
What are the different Keycap profiles and how do they differ from each other ?
Are there any pictured comparisons I could look at ?

Are Keyboard profiles due to how the board itself is setup or entirely dependent on the Keycaps used ?

Where can I buy Keycaps in Europe ?

Do any Keycaps fit into any board ?

Are PBT Keycaps shorter than normal ones ?
I dislike the Keycaps used in the Filcos and am looking for an alternative and was pointed to cherry profile but am unsure what that means exactly.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Fri, 04 January 2013, 05:28:12: This chart is from Signature Plastics and it shows different key types.(http://keycapsdirect.com/images/faq/FamilyProfilesLG.jpg)
Different brand keyboards and different sized keys; (WASD Chart) http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/keycap-compatibility
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: m_enanos on Fri, 04 January 2013, 05:53:54: Quote from: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 05:13:14
Herrow,

I am wondering if there is a source on info on keycaps, keyboard profiles and the likes ?
So far Ive found this http://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboard_profile.
What are the different Keycap profiles and how do they differ from each other ?
Are there any pictured comparisons I could look at ?

Are Keyboard profiles due to how the board itself is setup or entirely dependent on the Keycaps used ?

Where can I buy Keycaps in Europe ?

Do any Keycaps fit into any board ?

Are PBT Keycaps shorter than normal ones ?
I dislike the Keycaps used in the Filcos and am looking for an alternative and was pointed to cherry profile but am unsure what that means exactly.

You can find some keycaps vendors here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?board=51.0
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: jeroplane on Fri, 04 January 2013, 05:58:21: You didn't specify, but I'm going to assume you have/will have a Cherry MX board.

Are Keyboard profiles due to how the board itself is setup or entirely dependent on the Keycaps used ?

It is entirely dependent on the key caps.

Where can I buy Keycaps in Europe ?

Join a Group Buy or look around the Classifieds subforums on Geekhack for key cap sets you might like.

Do any Keycaps fit into any board ?

You need to check two important things: 1. that the keys are compatible with Cherry MX stems, 2. that the set matches your layout (whether US-ANSI or ISO).

Are PBT Keycaps shorter than normal ones ?

PBT refers to a particular plastic used in manufacturing key caps, not the key cap profile. The other common material is ABS plastic.

I dislike the Keycaps used in the Filcos and am looking for an alternative and was pointed to cherry profile but am unsure what that means exactly.

Cherry profile is usually used to describe the profile of original Cherry key caps off old Cherry keyboards. If you are in Europe, there is an abundance of old boards (as Cherry is a German company) that you can find on eBay or equivalent sale/auction sites or local recyclers/second-hand stores. It takes some time to recognise which key caps are compatible, so you should do a bit of research in threads here at Geekhack and the Deskthority wiki to learn more about original Cherry boards and key caps.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 06:04:06: Quote from: MissMurd3r84 on Fri, 04 January 2013, 05:28:12
This chart is from Signature Plastics and it shows different key types.
Show Image
(http://keycapsdirect.com/images/faq/FamilyProfilesLG.jpg)

Different brand keyboards and different sized keys; (WASD Chart) http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/keycap-compatibility

Thank you for the picture. How do i find out which Keyboard is using which Key- profile ? Which one of these profile is the common cherry profile, people often refer to ?

As it stands now, I have no idea what the letters of these various profiles stand for :-/
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: jeroplane on Fri, 04 January 2013, 06:08:27: None of those are Cherry profile. That image refers solely to the key cap profiles that Signature Plastics (commonly abbreviated to SP) produces. In fact, the only profile from SP that is commonly used is their DCS profile, which has become synonymous with "SP profile". You can basically disregard all the other acronyms and profiles in that image. Refer to my post above for an explanation of Cherry profile.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 06:44:53: Jeroplane, thank you for the excellent information.

In regards to cherry key profile comparison i could only find this picture
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k221/undarken/G80-3800/Keycaps.jpg)

Are those all extra- flat cherry keys or is the one to the very right the standart version ?
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: jeroplane on Fri, 04 January 2013, 07:24:36: Quote from: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 06:44:53
Jeroplane, thank you for the excellent information.

In regards to cherry key profile comparison i could only find this picture

Are those all extra- flat cherry keys or is the one to the very right the standart version ?

The one on the right is the one you want. See here (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_article_numbers) for an in-depth guide on how to identify which Cherry boards have the right key caps. In terms of the "Series" heading in that guide, key caps off MX and MY switch boards are what you want. In terms of the "Keycaps" heading, Double-shot ABS or Dye-sublimated PBT are what you want. These are the two most important things other than layout.

Keep in mind key cap sets off old boards will require a compatibility kit to fit a modern keyboard, known here as a "Moogle kit". See here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38755.0) for a recent discussion on these kits.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Noko on Fri, 04 January 2013, 08:33:45: Is SP profile effectively the same as Cherry? I'm thinking of picking up an aluminum space bar from the current group buy, and was wondering about the compatibility of the Cherry profile with an SP set.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 09:07:12: Quote from: jeroplane on Fri, 04 January 2013, 07:24:36
Quote from: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 06:44:53
Jeroplane, thank you for the excellent information.

In regards to cherry key profile comparison i could only find this picture

Are those all extra- flat cherry keys or is the one to the very right the standart version ?

The one on the right is the one you want. See here (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_article_numbers) for an in-depth guide on how to identify which Cherry boards have the right key caps. In terms of the "Series" heading in that guide, key caps off MX and MY switch boards are what you want. In terms of the "Keycaps" heading, Double-shot ABS or Dye-sublimated PBT are what you want. These are the two most important things other than layout.

Keep in mind key cap sets off old boards will require a compatibility kit to fit a modern keyboard, known here as a "Moogle kit". See here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38755.0) for a recent discussion on these kits.

I wish I could upvote here, you saved me alot of guesswork, thank you again buddy.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 09:15:22: Oh one more question, which keycap variant does the Leopold fc700r have ?
I was told it is one of the few tenkeyless boards with cherry caps ?

Either I would need to buy a ducky and cherry keycaps to exchange those or go for the leopold ?

Am i understanding this right ?
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: csimi on Fri, 04 January 2013, 09:17:06: Quote from: jolonnar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 08:33:45
Is SP profile effectively the same as Cherry? I'm thinking of picking up an aluminum space bar from the current group buy, and was wondering about the compatibility of the Cherry profile with an SP set.
As far as I know the spacebar mostly always probably differs in shape from the bottom row keys so does it really matter?
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: mashby on Fri, 04 January 2013, 09:23:57: This is a great thread. Thank you for starting it!
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 09:58:54: Really want to know which keycaps exactly the leopold fc700r is using.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: jeroplane on Fri, 04 January 2013, 10:27:58: No problem Calcifar, glad it's helped you out :)

Quote from: jolonnar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 08:33:45
Is SP profile effectively the same as Cherry? I'm thinking of picking up an aluminum space bar from the current group buy, and was wondering about the compatibility of the Cherry profile with an SP set.

It's very close, especially the top rows. However the bottom two rows (and particularly the bottom row) of SP profile keys are noticeably more slanted back than Cherry keys. This has been a major complaint with their bottom row, and their spacebars are known to be "sharp" due to the high front edge. But yes as csimi mentioned, the spacebar will always have a convex top which differs from the other modifiers, so you can pretty much use any profile space bar with any set in most circumstances.

Quote from: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 09:15:22
Oh one more question, which keycap variant does the Leopold fc700r have ?
I was told it is one of the few tenkeyless boards with cherry caps ?

Either I would need to buy a ducky and cherry keycaps to exchange those or go for the leopold ?

Am i understanding this right ?

The Leopold FC700R's key caps are Cherry profile but they are not the same as original Cherry keys. While they probably have the closest match to the profile of original Cherry keys, they are made of thin PBT plastic as opposed to thick ABS plastic which is part of the allure of original Cherry keys. It's important to distinguish between "Cherry profile" and "original Cherry key caps".

I think it's a lot easier to understand with a picture. Here are some quick and dirty shots I took comparing an original Cherry key cap with a key cap from my brother's FC700R:

(http://i.imgur.com/1vlUm.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/aGW5S.jpg)

Cherry vs. Leopold:
Material - Thick ABS vs. Thin PBT
Printing - Doubleshot vs. Pad-Printed
Shape - Sharp corners vs. Rounded corners

This being said, the Leopold is a great board and they probably have the best stock key caps out of any board commonly available on the market right now. But I guess that's inconsequential if you're going to swap them out anyway. The only issue with the Leopold is that the space bar from most sets will be incompatible due to odd spacing of stabiliser mounts.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 10:38:01: wow thank you for the effort, very revealing.

The keys dont seem to be hugely different. I might just go for the leopold as my first mechanical board.

Now I have to figure out how to get hold of one in the UK.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: jeroplane on Fri, 04 January 2013, 10:44:06: Quote from: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 10:38:01
wow thank you for the effort, very revealing.

The keys dont seem to be hugely different. I might just go for the leopold as my first mechanical board.

Now I have to figure out how to get hold of one in the UK.

They may not look too different, but they feel very different :) But it's all just personal preference - some people really like the feel of Leopold keys. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it as a solid first mechanical keyboard.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 11:18:09: hmm the leopold is only available directly from korea.

How hard would it be for a beginner to get a filco with blue switches and replace the keycaps with cherries ?

That should be possible, right ?

I liked the filco apart from the keyscaps really.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: jeroplane on Fri, 04 January 2013, 19:23:28: Quote from: Calcifar on Fri, 04 January 2013, 11:18:09
hmm the leopold is only available directly from korea.

How hard would it be for a beginner to get a filco with blue switches and replace the keycaps with cherries ?

That should be possible, right ?

I liked the filco apart from the keyscaps really.

Not hard if you have the money. You'll find that switching key caps is a very easy process with Cherry MX switches.

That's exactly what I did for my first keyboard. Filco MJ2 with Blues, but it didn't have its stock key caps on for more than two weeks.

Most people around here replace the key caps immediately after receiving a new keyboard, so the stock key caps usually isn't a deciding factor when buying.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: reverkiller on Fri, 04 January 2013, 19:35:53: My current favorite set of keycaps is the Ducky PBT available on mechanicalkeyboards.com I have a whitedyesubbed set, and it feels very nice to type on.
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Calcifar on Sat, 05 January 2013, 07:06:05: this thread rocks :)
Title: Re: Questions + Information source on Keycaps ?
Post by: Noko on Sat, 05 January 2013, 08:49:17: Thanks to csimi and jeroplane for the responses. I agree, this is a great thread.