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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: JPG on Fri, 04 January 2013, 15:59:27
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Hi all, I am still quite n00b here, but following all the different projects is very interesting (and scary for my wallet).
I have been following the GH60 project and some other threads, like the GH60++ one.
At first sight, I am thinking that I would prefer to get a 75% keyboard, that has all the key I need over a 60% that misses a few of them. But I never tried a 60% keyboard (TKL only) and the GH60 will be fully configurable/programmable, with the possibility to configure layers and stuff.
So my question is this simple one: Can you use a 60% keyboard and still be able to easily have acces to all the different keys (F1-F12, del/end/page up/page down/arows) and how do you achieve it.
I want to mention that I often uses some keys with 2 modifiers (like shift+control+end) so I would still need to be able to do it with my 2 hands (not a 20 key combo :p)
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question, it will be appreciated ;D
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Well... you press the appropriate keys. ctrl+shift+end would be ctrl+shift+FN+.(end)
It doesn't require a lot of stretching. Here's a map of the keys for a KBT Pure.
http://i.minus.com/jPosIkXTLkrYX.PNG
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You get used to the Fn key combos pretty quickly. One thing I really like about small layouts is you don't typically have to stretch your fingers very far to get to the arrows and other motion control keys.
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I recommend using CapsLock as an Fn key and sticking Caps on a layer (if you really need it).
Fn + 1 thru 0, -, + give you F1-12
Fn + ~ could be Esc
Fn + whatever works best for you for arrows (wasd, esdf, ijkl, okl;), editing keys (ins, del, pgup/dwn, ...)
Given Hasu's firmware the Menu key can be Menu *and* another or different Fn key.
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For one like Poker, Pure you get used to how it is. For something like GH60, you can make it any way that work for you. If you don't want to have any hard to reach key combo, don't make them. Also you could make macro key so instead of have to press 4 key, you could make Fn+ N (shift+control+end) for example if you wanted to. There is a thread about some different key assignment here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38342.0), you might get some better idea seeing peoples proposed keymappings.
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I don't. I've actually tried to use a full-size keyboard as a 60% one, because I didn't like reaching for the "extra" keys, but it sucked unless I was only typing in Vim with CapsLock remapped to Esc.
Why? I use Esc, cursor keys, Insert and function keys a lot when working with my desktop environment (read: not typing) — I really want copy'n'paste, window manager functions, slide-down console, cursor controls etc. as few keystrokes away as possible.
Therefore, I can imagine using a 60% keyboard (just with the Poker layout actually, the other ones look like designed by Pikachu on acid (http://youtu.be/X5Izm1LQfw4) to me) only with a decent keypad (I mean especially the layer with NumLock turned off).
However, good keypads aren't all that common (and even less portable when combined with a keyboard), so I'm just using a Choc Mini, and don't see a big deal in going more minimalist.
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I have a Siig Minitouch (75%) and a Poker (60%), and I manage to work just fine. One thing I've learned about myself is that I hardly need any functionality at all other than alpha. I use VIM for coding, and one remap that I really like is caps lock to escape when not digraphed, and as control when digraphed. It works pretty well for me!
I think when I start doing more typing on a daily basis (I'm a student right now, and my clever programs get finished in <100 lines most of the time), I'll try to learn a more ergonomic layout to facilitate more comfortable typing.
One thing I've wanted to do with keyboards is sort of how the poker does it - swap layers from on and off (In the pokers case, a layer is really 4 keys). I think that that could be really cool!
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I think when I start doing more typing on a daily basis (I'm a student right now, and my clever programs get finished in <100 lines most of the time), I'll try to learn a more ergonomic layout to facilitate more comfortable typing.
I recommend to do it when you can afford a huge drop in wpm for few weeks.
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I think when I start doing more typing on a daily basis (I'm a student right now, and my clever programs get finished in <100 lines most of the time), I'll try to learn a more ergonomic layout to facilitate more comfortable typing.
I recommend to do it when you can afford a huge drop in wpm for few weeks.
I think I'll do it when I get back to school in a week. Until then, I'll just stick to what I know :))
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I have a HHKB and i find the trick is to stay with that keyboard for a long period of time. I find that when you switch between keyboards as a lot of people do, it can become confusing and you end up falling back in your typing for a while.
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Thx a lot for all the answer. I am getting a better idea now. So basically, you learn some combos and map the one you use most so that they aint hard to reach, and with the gh60 it's gonna be even easier since it would be fully configurable.
Thx again!
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It doesn't require a lot of stretching. Here's a map of the keys for a KBT Pure.
http://i.minus.com/jPosIkXTLkrYX.PNG
I can't find the "menu" key anywhere.
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It doesn't require a lot of stretching. Here's a map of the keys for a KBT Pure.
http://i.minus.com/jPosIkXTLkrYX.PNG
I can't find the "menu" key anywhere.
People use that key? lol
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It doesn't require a lot of stretching. Here's a map of the keys for a KBT Pure.
http://i.minus.com/jPosIkXTLkrYX.PNG
I can't find the "menu" key anywhere.
It is usually hidden in the right-click of your mouse!
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It doesn't require a lot of stretching. Here's a map of the keys for a KBT Pure.
http://i.minus.com/jPosIkXTLkrYX.PNG
I can't find the "menu" key anywhere.
It is usually hidden in the right-click of your mouse!
I know that, I'm just wondering why people use a menu key on a keyboard
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I use linux and bind it to a menu. Over slow connections with RDP/VNC I use it a lot since I avoid the mouse.
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Menu key is the worst key on a keyboard to me. Well, not worst, but most useless.
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o m g.... I know that key is useless on windoze. So are the left and right OS modifier keys so are thousands of other keys. Some of us use better operating systems that utilize the keyboard the way it was intended.
Let me rephrase my question:
Where is the HELP key? That is what the key actually is supposed to be for.
I assume the answer is "That key does not exist on 60% keyboards" ?
It just seems weird that they are letting me use my left and right OS modifier keys but not the help key. They could have just said "Those keys are useless on Windoze so lets chop'em off." like some keyboards have done.
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Better is subjective. If we're getting all high and mighty with each other, I have a question for you. You whine all the time about your hands hurting, but you type excessive posts. I would think you would cut those down as short as you can. What's up with that?
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Better is subjective. If we're getting all high and mighty with each other, I have a question for you. You whine all the time about your hands hurting, but you type excessive posts.
My posts are "excessive"?
Really?
I am not allowed to ask where the menu/help key is?
Are you sure?
I would think you would cut those down as short as you can. What's up with that?
Show me how to write it shorter than:
I can't find the "menu" key anywhere.
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Personnaly, I would only say: get a GH60 and configure it like YOU want!
:eek:
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It doesn't require a lot of stretching. Here's a map of the keys for a KBT Pure.
http://i.minus.com/jPosIkXTLkrYX.PNG
I can't find the "menu" key anywhere.
It's the apps key
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The menu key isn't the help key. There is no "help" key. The concept of help is completely determined by context. Traditionally, F1 has been the conventional help/documentation keyboard shortcut.
And I use the menu key all the freaking time. It's one of the most useful keys on my board. Sure as hell beats hitting Shift+F10 all the time.
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60% boards are the best. I love them.
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Dude custom layouts only 60% is great if you dont need a numpad if you fo get a phantom
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It doesn't require a lot of stretching. Here's a map of the keys for a KBT Pure.
http://i.minus.com/jPosIkXTLkrYX.PNG
I can't find the "menu" key anywhere.
Because it's on Poker, not Pure. I occasionally use it in file manager, but it's not a big deal — everything that can be done in the context menu, can be done using a shortcut as well.
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I am sure by not on the Pure, you meant it is on the Pure also. ^-^
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I am sure by not on the Pure, you meant it is on the Pure also. ^-^
It's simply not there. You'll obviously argue that it's on the Fn layer, but that's my point: in many situations the 60% layout equals to sacrificing functionality/comfort for the sake of minimalism. For example, some of the more common shortcuts on unix-like systems are Ctrl+Alt+Fx, Ctrl+Insert, Shift+Insert etc. — these are pure masochism on a 60% layout.
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I only use a full size keyboard at work and i hate it! My mouse is to far away. I love the tenkeyless keyboards but also the 60% ones are great as well. Everything is so compact you don't have to deal with the keyboard's useless keys.
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I am sure by not on the Pure, you meant it is on the Pure also. ^-^
It's simply not there. You'll obviously argue that it's on the Fn layer, but that's my point: in many situations the 60% layout equals to sacrificing functionality/comfort for the sake of minimalism. For example, some of the more common shortcuts on unix-like systems are Ctrl+Alt+Fx, Ctrl+Insert, Shift+Insert etc. — these are pure masochism on a 60% layout.
That all depends on your layout surely? Replace caps lock (a totally worthless key IMO) with the Fn key and lots of shortcuts become easy. Admittedly most 60s out there are a little muddled when it comes to function layers but thats why all you need to do it get a GH60 and you can make it as easy as you want.
For me the size and mobility of a 60 far outweighs the need to do a little finger yoga every once in a while. This is speaking as someone who uses a CLI all day, pretty much every day, at work. Its all about individual needs. If you dont want to have to press one more key to do a function shortcut then get a 75% or TKL.
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I guess I'm somewhere in the middle wrt 60% boards like the Pure. I like the size and don't mind the use of the Fn for most of the keys (e.g. the function keys) but the lack of dedicated arrow keys is a real downer. I have an HHKB Lite 2, as well, as a Pure and my hands (apart from the feel of the switches) prefer the former, mostly because it includes arrow keys. Also it may be issue unique to the Pure but it seems to be picky about the order in which I hold down the keys for text selection combos like Shift+Alt+Fn+arrow. Get the order wrong and the combo doesn't take. Any other Pure owners notice that?
I'm finding myself more comfortable with the Race I bought a week or two after the Pure. I still use and like the Pure but those arrow keys...sigh. :)
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I agree that all the 60%s currently avaliable have atrocious implementation of arrow keys. But then look at what happens when they try to have dedicated arrow keys (Poker 2) its all 1x keys along the bottom and a 1x right shift. bleurgh. Far better using the right hand 1.25 modifiers as arrow keys, at least then you dont need to press a separate button to use arrows.
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I only use a full size keyboard at work and i hate it! My mouse is to far away.
The reason computers come with detached keyboards these days is so that you can put the keyboard anywhere you want.
You are supposed to put the keyboard in your lap, out toward your knees.
Your mouse goes in your lap close to you.
Get a lapmat (or whatever they call those things these days) and your life will be filled with joy. :)
A Lapmat is soft and squishy on the underside and hard plastic on the topside.
If you keep reaching way up on the desk off to the right to move your mouse and you do that all day long, day after day, year after year, you will eventually damage your nerves, tendons or muscles. At that point your life will be filled with misery.
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I guess I'm somewhere in the middle wrt 60% boards like the Pure. I like the size and don't mind the use of the Fn for most of the keys (e.g. the function keys) but the lack of dedicated arrow keys is a real downer. I have an HHKB Lite 2, as well, as a Pure and my hands (apart from the feel of the switches) prefer the former, mostly because it includes arrow keys. Also it may be issue unique to the Pure but it seems to be picky about the order in which I hold down the keys for text selection combos like Shift+Alt+Fn+arrow. Get the order wrong and the combo doesn't take. Any other Pure owners notice that?
I'm finding myself more comfortable with the Race I bought a week or two after the Pure. I still use and like the Pure but those arrow keys...sigh. :)
You are correct about order being critical with the Pure. It's the only big problem I have with the board although I've gotten used to it. The reason you have to finger dance is that Fn +Shift is set to ctrl + Alt + del. So for something like Shift + arrow you have to hit shift before hitting Fn for the arrow key. It's terrible design really.
But, in general with smaller layouts you need to weigh the pros of a smaller keyboard with the inconvenience of the layout. However, the inconvenience is mostly up front because you CAN get used to almost anything. Unfortunately you just have to try it to see if you like it.
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And if common operating systems make use of about one hundred keys, you could replace regular keyboard with a 5key chorded keyboard! Minimalism at its best.
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I see a lot of complaints about the arrow keys, how often are you guys using them?
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After using my poker for a while, I realize I use it A LOT. I also shift using my right pinky which made having the "dedicated arrow keys" on a total pain. I rather use my keyboard to scroll, go back to correct mistakes, select words and other things. I know poker has another layer under the wasd to use as well, but I couldn't teach myself to use that for browsing. Maybe if the arrow keys were within a thumbs reach to the fn key.
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I have no real problem with 60% boards, i own a Poker, HHKBPro2, and RACE. I think the extra keys on the RACE are really unnecessary for the most part; You get used to no arrow keys in the primary layer fairly quickly. If you don't like 60% you might as well get a normal TKL.
I know this isn't exactly a topic about the HHKB but I must say that i love the HHKBPro2 Layout, It is primarily the reason i'm using it aside from investing so much money into it (after buying extra key-caps its an expensive sonofa*****). Though, I'm starting to get tired of the 45g Topre and it's not fun to type on *ducks*; im favoring MX, If i can make a GH60 (if i get one) with a near-HHKB layout i would be a happy man. Only thing wrong with the HHKB layout is the backspace/backslash location, it makes it psychologically difficult to switch between different keyboards. I find the control location more ergonomic in the normally caps lock key and I'm thankful there is a dipswitch for that on the Poker and RACE. And I actually like the arrow cluster embedded in [;'/ in fact i'm going to program that into my phantom if its possible.
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Idk if any of you have seen my layouts but theres a reason whyv i say custom layout only because then you get it exactly how you want it.