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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: martin360 on Fri, 11 January 2013, 19:41:39
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I'm currently thinking about to buy the Happy Hacking Professional 2 Type "S" keyboard. My only concern is the missing control key. I'm a Mac user and use a lot of control, alt, command shortcuts. I also changed the caps look key to a specific function key. For example to move around I'm not using the arrow keys. I hold down the caps look key in combination with h, j, k, or l (like Vim users do).
The alternative for me would be the Realforce 87U Tenkeyless "Silent". But this keyboard is not available with blank keys and has four keys in the right hand corner???
Are there any programmers, that use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, using the Happy Hacking Professional 2 keyboard? What are your experience?
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You can definitely Get Around ''' using the HHKB, it has all the essentials.
But you have to decided whether the "transition" period is worth it. At least 2-3 weeks to get your workflow as efficient as it used to be.
And you'll probably have to setup Autohotkey to place the number pad around the "J" key so that you can consistently touch type the number pad.
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The HHKB definitely DOES have a control key. It's where Caps Lock normally goes. As far as programming goes, it really depends on your IDE. I've used mine at work for a couple days, but it was kind of a pain as I primarily use Visual Studio, and none of the Vim plugins really cut it.
But it definitely has all the functions of a normal board available.
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im not exactly a programmer, but i write ruby scripts and on a daily basis have to examine and manipulate large text files sometimes using regex, so im using the Backslash, Control, Home, End, F-Keys, and Arrow keys a lot (when i'm not running macros of course lol). At first I thought there was no way this would work out with the HHKB, and backslash location was really getting to me, but now its like nothing, in fact the control location is more ergonomic in my opinion if you have to press it a lot. i would say the layout is fantastic for what I do, don't know about you. Just put some thought into it before you buy it. IF your looking into the Type-S that probably means your fine spending the money. I'm not really the biggest fan of Topre 45g, but the board to me is worth it even for the size, construction, layout, and of course cool factor :cool: I've become a keyboard nut but i don't see myself getting rid my HHKB ever.
I probably going to implement some parts of the HHKB layout into my Phantom, GH60, and ErgoDox (community designed cherry mx keyboards)
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I've never had problem with bash, vim and screen on OSX. But I've never worked on dev tool like Xcode.
Lack of bottom corner keys may be much trouble for you. It doesn't look like you are a happy user of HHKB.
I'd not recommend HHKB for you unless you are certain about that layout or your desk space is very limited.
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Are there any programmers, that use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, using the Happy Hacking Professional 2 keyboard? What are your experience?
Happen to have been in your position a year or so ago! Also a programmer on a Mac, I ordered a HHKB Pro 2 with the same hesitations... mainly about the control key being moved. Long story short, remapping my mind to use caps location for control was almost instant. In fact, the more you use control, the better it is to use it in that location... much easier to reach! Of course, I guess if you have other stuff mapped to it you'll have to get used to a different fn key. I do have quite a few weird shortcuts, but the layout didn't affect them.
There were two other main problems I had...
One was the backspace being one row down. I hit \ so many times the first couple of weeks. Makes sense in hindsight because you hit backspace much more frequently than control. But regardless, I got used to that just fine. The only trouble was when you went back to your laptop keyboard or something of the sort, but it came eventually. And like the control placement, I found that yes in fact the backspace was more convient in that location that on the top row anyway.
The second, and the reason I eventually went back to normal tenkeyless boards, is the lack of arrow keys. I guess this isn't an issue for you since you're already used to no arrow keys. :-p I don't know why, but I just could never get used to the soft keys for those. For one, they aren't lined up, which drove me crazy. (OCD!) But mainly, it generally required two hands (or at least some awkward stretches) to hold down a key and then use the arrow keys. I thought time would heal this, but for me at least, I never found it very comfortable... though it was workable.
So, I sold it and got a Realforce TKL instead, as I was completely 100% sold on Topre switches after the HHKB. But I don't know... there's something about the feel on that HHKB that I don't get on the Realforce. That think was just so nice to type on. I miss it... and would probably buy another if it weren't $$$ and had arrow keys. (Like the japanese version, minus all the weird bottom row buttons)
Anyway, I ended up falling in love again with Cherry switches, and now I really don't like the feel of my Realforce. But I'd highly recommend the HHKB to try... resale value is really good generally.
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I wouldn't recommend it, especially since you enjoy HJKL. The problem that I have with the HHKB is that the function layer keys are in a bad spot all the way to the right of the keyboard rather than nearer to your hands' resting positions. For the same reason that Vim users enjoy HJKL you'll dislike where the HHKB puts their arrow keys.
What I would recommend instead is looking at the GH60 project in the "making stuff together" subforum. It is similar in size to the HHKB but has the corner keys which the HHKB should never have removed to begin with, they're just wasting space by not having them and leaving the corners blank (and even if someone wouldn't want those corner keys, you could always ignore them). The important difference is that the GH60 will be a programmable keyboard, so you can put the standard and function layer keys wherever you choose. This is similar to the custom ATmega controller, nicknamed the HID liberation device, that was used with Filco TKL keyboards to give them reprogrammable firmware (viewable in the "group buys" subforum). I have one of these in my Filco now and do similar to you, holding down the Caps Lock key as a FN key and then having something similar to HJKL available.
The term "Hacking" in HHKB is more for popularity/sales pitch than it actually being tailored for programming. However, admittedly only people who are more computer savvy/comfortable would be open to the idea of having to use a FN key to do such simple things as getting arrow keys. I'm not saying that you can't use it for programming, but it would likely not be advantageous in any way compared to a TKL size keyboard, particularly as it may become more difficult to do combinations as Shift+Ctrl+Fn+arrow since you now have to hold Fn in addition.
I would suggest that if you really want the small form factor than you wait for the GH60 project. Barring that, I would recommend seeing if bpiphany still has any HID liberation devices available and getting a Filco TKL to go with it. This way you have the F1-F12 keys still available on a top layer as well as arrows when doing Shift+Ctrl+arrow, but if you want to stay near the home row with Vim like arrow binding, you can reprogram the firmware to allow for that.
Of course, if you just use autohotkey, or whatever it is that you currently use to get your VIM like hotkeys, then you could probably ignore getting an HID liberation device + Filco at all and just use any TKL or 60% size (HHKB/poker size) you like.
Also, you mentioned blank keys, and I would recommend against them (and this as someone who currently has blank keys on the vast majority of his keyboards). I can touch type easily, but there are no advantages to not having letters on your keyboards except for vanity. On the other side, there are several disadvantages to not having letters on your keyboard. For example, when trying to type just a few letters with one hand (perhaps you are holding a coffee in the other), it can be difficult to find the letters that you want since you can't really place your hand in the home position to get your bearings. Additionally, pressing number or F# keys can sometimes be slightly more confusing. I use blank keys of alternating colors for every group of 4 numbers: 1-4 are in white, 5-8 are in grey, 9 to + are in white (you can see this in my profile picture), and even then sometimes I find myself sort of mentally "counting" where I should be, such as "okay... 5 is the first grey key... so I want the one next to it". This is in part because I am less confident at touch typing numbers, even though I am extremely confident at touch typing letters. It's not so bad when you just need one number or symbol, say 5 or %, but when you need to type a string of numbers, it can be painful. For reference, I type using the Colemak layout rather than Qwerty, which is why I use blank keys. However I have recently purchased custom Colemak labelled keys for some of my keyboards and for the others I mixed labelled number keys to go with blank letter keys. These provide better functionality, I guarantee you.
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Also, you mentioned blank keys, and I would recommend against them (and this as someone who currently has blank keys on the vast majority of his keyboards). I can touch type easily, but there are no advantages to not having letters on your keyboards except for vanity. On the other side, there are several disadvantages to not having letters on your keyboard. For example, when trying to type just a few letters with one hand (perhaps you are holding a coffee in the other), it can be difficult to find the letters that you want since you can't really place your hand in the home position to get your bearings.
Seconded! I used to roll with blanks, but one handed things are needlessly hard. It's kind of cool to show off I suppose, but otherwise seems silly in hindsight.
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I use an HHKB at work every day for coding in vim. The function layer takes getting used to, like anything new. I believe there is a Mac mode if you're worried about the Command vs. Control thing. I'm with aggiejy on the HHKB feel. It's slightly different (i.e., better) than what you get with a Realforce. Hard to describe.
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+1 for hashbaz. Even though I primarily use the RealForces for my daily work, I'd prefer to use the HHKB. There's something about it's feel that is just... better.
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What, nobody uses Emacs? Putting CapsLock where Control *ought* to be is what's really crazy!
Seriously the HHKB is following the pattern of old Sun unix keyboards by placing the Control where it can be easily used; emacs uses Control pervasively. That won't be the hard part to adapt to though. As others have pointed out the lack of dedicated arrow keys and the unfortunate placement of the Fn key on the right side (sorry, my pinky is just not up to the task) of the board and the layout of the Fn-layer arrow keys is what really gets in the way. Of course, if you live in emacs the way some programmers do you can remap the movement keys to use the Control key.
FWIW I don't know anyone who uses an HHKB who isn't some sort of programmer.
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Good point.
I wouldn't try hitting the Fn key without moving your right hand. That's just gonna make your hand hurt. Just slide your hand over, like you do for arrow keys on full boards.
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I'm a programmer, a Mac user, and just recently bought the HHKB Pro 2...
The adjustment took me about a week. My biggest concern was the lack of arrow keys, but it's like second nature to me now. So much so that when I'm using my Macbook Air, I sometimes reach for the fantom fn key when I want to use the arrow keys.
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Thanks for all the great replies. I just ordered my HHKB2. I'm very excited :)
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Grats! You won't be disappointed :)
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I bought my today and really look forward to it
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I wouldn't recommend it, especially since you enjoy HJKL. The problem that I have with the HHKB is that the function layer keys are in a bad spot all the way to the right of the keyboard rather than nearer to your hands' resting positions. For the same reason that Vim users enjoy HJKL you'll dislike where the HHKB puts their arrow keys.
FWIW, it's not that hard to use a modded controller (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047.0) and change the layout of the function layer.
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FWIW, it's not that hard to use a modded controller (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047.0) and change the layout of the function layer.
You're my hero. Was just looking for info on this.
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I'm currently thinking about to buy the Happy Hacking Professional 2 Type "S" keyboard. My only concern is the missing control key. I'm a Mac user and use a lot of control, alt, command shortcuts. I also changed the caps look key to a specific function key. For example to move around I'm not using the arrow keys. I hold down the caps look key in combination with h, j, k, or l (like Vim users do).
The alternative for me would be the Realforce 87U Tenkeyless "Silent". But this keyboard is not available with blank keys and has four keys in the right hand corner???
Are there any programmers, that use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, using the Happy Hacking Professional 2 keyboard? What are your experience?
The HHKB Pro 2 was designed solely for programmers. Since most others have already said the important stuff, I'm going to focus on why having 'Control' to the left of your pinky is critical if you are a programmer in a UNIX environment.
Ctrl-A = jump to beginning of line in unix terminal
Ctrl-E = jump to end of line in unix terminal
Ctrl-R = search command history in unix terminal
Ctrl-P = cycle through commands in history (previous)
Ctrl-N = cycle through commands in history (next)
Ctrl-B = back one character on line in unix terminal
Ctrl-F = forward one character on line in unix terminal
Ctrl-[ = exit mode in vim (equivalent to pressing "Esc")
I won't even get into emacs..
Having this key available right next to 'A' is MUCH more ergonomic than having to twist or contort your hand to get your pinky to hit Ctrl in the bottom left-most corner of your keyboard. Some people will say there's no problem with it, or it's not a stretch, but if you watch their hand while they do it you can't help but chuckle a bit.
Also, I work on a Mac as well.
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also you shouldn't use your left little finger when pressing the following shortcuts:
Ctrl-A = jump to beginning of line in unix terminal
Ctrl-E = jump to end of line in unix terminal
Ctrl-R = search command history in unix terminal
Ctrl-B = back one character on line in unix terminal
Ctrl-F = forward one character on line in unix terminal
and this is why they have nothing to do with your left control placement.
but nevermind, left control key on hhkb is where it should be.
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also you shouldn't use your left little finger when pressing the following shortcuts:
Ctrl-A = jump to beginning of line in unix terminal
Ctrl-E = jump to end of line in unix terminal
Ctrl-R = search command history in unix terminal
Ctrl-B = back one character on line in unix terminal
Ctrl-F = forward one character on line in unix terminal
and this is why they have nothing to do with your left control placement.
but nevermind, left control key on hhkb is where it should be.
Why would you use any other finger for those shortcuts? It doesn't make any sense and it's inefficient. You're not typing a word at the same time, so it's fine to shift your left hand over 1 key for the sake of ergonomics..
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whoops, i made a mistake. ctrl-a definitely needs left pinky!
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I never even use right control anymore. All my boards are set to have control where capslock normally is, and I've been using that for so long that I just use it for all my Ctrl combos. Reaching for right control with my right pinky is painful now
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Anyone use a Mac and figure out how to map the arrow keys to something like Alt + J/K/I/L (WASD on the right side)?
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I would suggest using ControllerMate (http://www.orderedbytes.com/controllermate/).
Probably one of the best pieces of software I've ever used on a Mac. You can pretty much remap any USB device to do anything you want, and you can chain macros and do all sorts of cool stuff using a fairly intuitive visual programming UI.
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CapsLock to Ctrl and to swap Delete and \| under Mac OS X was no problem with KeyRemap4MacBook and PCKeyboardHack and I already got used to the placement of Delete (as I mentioned I used CapsLock as Ctrl for years). I didn't swap Esc and ~ since I barely use the Esc key, since Ctrl+[ does the exact same thing under vim and I can not imagine were else to use escape. But there is more, KeyRemap4Macbook provides a vim-Mode with remappings for Ctrl-hjkl for arrow keys, Ctrl-0 Ctrl-$ for Home and End and so on.
Btw I'm pretty surprised, that after more than a month reading this board no vim/emacs flamewar took place. Are only vim users here or, do most of the people only use IDEs?
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I'd prefer to use Vim everywhere, but unfortunately years of habit with Visual Studio means that for work right now I have to use my 87us :(
PS: Why the heck would you swap control for capslock on an HHKB?
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I'd prefer to use Vim everywhere, but unfortunately years of habit with Visual Studio means that for work right now I have to use my 87us :(
PS: Why the heck would you swap control for capslock on an HHKB?
I didn't :D The HHKB is still on its way from japan. I mapped CapsLock to Ctrl for my Filco, to have Ctrl were it's supposed to be.
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ahhhhhh