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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: tauburn on Tue, 15 January 2013, 14:49:26

Title: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Tue, 15 January 2013, 14:49:26
I have already read the other old threads on this topic and none were helpful, but on my filco majestouch 2, tons of keys stopped clicking. i'm seriously unimpressed with the quality of cherry switches. i've only had this keyboard for a few months. nothing in liquid form has come within 20 feet of it. i sprayed an air can in every angle i possibly could. what should i do to fix this. there is very little continuity of click feel and sound between each switch.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: machmkv on Tue, 15 January 2013, 15:14:04
I just picked up a quickfire rapid with cherry blues and have the same crap.  Half the the time my spacebar when pressed from the left side doesn't produce a click but works perfectly fine on the right side.  And also half keys on the board doesn't produce a solid click rather silent loose click.

This is my third quickfire rapid board from the local store and all of are having this problem.  On one of them, several keys did not make any clicks at all. Not sure if this is a problem with coolermaster or just specifically with cherry blue switches.  I'm going to stick with linear red switches.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Tue, 15 January 2013, 15:18:21
I just picked up a quickfire rapid with cherry blues and have the same crap.  Half the the time my spacebar when pressed from the left side doesn't produce a click but works perfectly fine on the right side.  And also half keys on the board doesn't produce a solid click rather silent loose click.

This is my third quickfire rapid board from the local store and all of are having this problem.  On one of them, several keys did not make any clicks at all. Not sure if this is a problem with coolermaster or just specifically with cherry blue switches.  I'm going to stick with linear red switches.

my filco's spacebar is like that too.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Germiphene on Tue, 15 January 2013, 15:46:13
Open her up and take a look under the hood.  Might be something stuck, or impairing the mechanism.  Can't hurt!
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 15 January 2013, 17:15:47
The click is produced entirely within the switch housing itself.

It is unlikely that anything like dust would have gotted into the switch, unless you are in an exceptionally dusty enrivonment.

Some of my MX blue switches have gone the other way - they did not click at all when I first got the keyboard, now they click (sometimes).

Maybe it was a bad batch of switches?  This is not a problem I have heard of before, as the switches should last 50 million keystrokes each and thus should not so easily wear out so quickly.

Is it still under warranty?  Can you RMA it?
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 15 January 2013, 17:32:52
The click is produced entirely within the switch housing itself.

It is unlikely that anything like dust would have gotted into the switch, unless you are in an exceptionally dusty enrivonment.

Some of my MX blue switches have gone the other way - they did not click at all when I first got the keyboard, now they click (sometimes).

Maybe it was a bad batch of switches?  This is not a problem I have heard of before, as the switches should last 50 million keystrokes each and thus should not so easily wear out so quickly.

Is it still under warranty?  Can you RMA it?

Hmm.. seems like more and more complaints about Nonclicks recently..

This makes me think perhaps something is wrong with the soldering they're doing.. Probably melting the insides of the switches.. overheated the housing.

With the housing warped. the metal "reset" bar might be slightly tilted, so it doesn't "pop" the click white mechanism on the shaft.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Xingularity on Tue, 15 January 2013, 19:35:26
I have the same issue with my DK9087. The F6 and arrow keys have a really wimpy click, which is sometimes not there at all.

I didn't bother to RMA it since it was a limited edition which sold out pretty quick.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: sth on Tue, 15 January 2013, 19:36:38
i'm seriously unimpressed with the quality of cherry switches.

you learn quickly young padawan
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 15 January 2013, 22:10:18
I blame the switch design, too many tiny parts, with not enough precision.

Blues are sort of a compromise design in my eyes. The guides have to be shorter to make room for the part that clicks and it relies on near perfect alignment for things to work. Unfortunately the sorter guides make that hard to achieve.

The theory about overheating during soldering could also not only be true, but be exaggerated on blues because of their compromised design.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 15 January 2013, 22:28:50
I blame the switch design, too many tiny parts, with not enough precision.

Blues are sort of a compromise design in my eyes. The guides have to be shorter to make room for the part that clicks and it relies on near perfect alignment for things to work. Unfortunately the sorter guides make that hard to achieve.

The theory about overheating during soldering could also not only be true, but be exaggerated on blues because of their compromised design.

In a way, that makes a "fully" working MxBlue keyboard somewhat of a Gem no? HAHAHA

lol, that aside,, yea, I do feel the mx blue switch has unnecessarily complicated parts.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 15 January 2013, 22:34:44
I have a fully working Ducky Shine with MX blues (except for space, which s MX green) :D

(I also have a second with a couple of partially clicky switches.)
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: ValerieV on Tue, 15 January 2013, 22:48:18
This is my biggest complaint with cherry mx blues. My DAS, POKER and QuickFire have all had that problem with at least one switch. It is annoying and i hate it when the manufacturer says that it is caused by dirt or dust. It is a faulty switch. And it really pisses me off because it always a key that is pressed often, not a tilde or something that is never pressed! Anyone know if the browns can lose their sound? Thanks.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: 1391406 on Tue, 15 January 2013, 22:59:25
Anyone know if the browns can lose their sound? Thanks.

Very little chance of that since they're not clicky.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: uJalled on Wed, 16 January 2013, 00:32:13
I recently bought a filco as well and it sounds and performs great. I must have gotten lucky
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 16 January 2013, 00:34:55
This is my biggest complaint with cherry mx blues. My DAS, POKER and QuickFire have all had that problem with at least one switch. It is annoying and i hate it when the manufacturer says that it is caused by dirt or dust. It is a faulty switch. And it really pisses me off because it always a key that is pressed often, not a tilde or something that is never pressed! Anyone know if the browns can lose their sound? Thanks.
I wonder how they think dust and dirt could actually get in there in enough quantity and size to cause an issue in such a relatively short amount of time. Cherry did a pretty good job sealing the switch off from the holes opposite the switch mechanism. On top of that you have the key cap, and possibly a plate covering it.

I would love a manufacturer tell me that, I would have them show me how it could happen and then remind them it's their product and that they need to fix it.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Saturn on Wed, 16 January 2013, 01:01:37
Odd that I've only been hearing about this happening recently.  Or has this always been an issue with blue switches?

I was thinking of trying blues next since it's been a while since i've had a clicky board, but after reading all this stuff I might reconsider.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 16 January 2013, 02:55:59
Odd that I've only been hearing about this happening recently.  Or has this always been an issue with blue switches?

I was thinking of trying blues next since it's been a while since i've had a clicky board, but after reading all this stuff I might reconsider.

This is a definitely a "new" complaint people has had... I've not encountered this myself through 3 different cherry mx boards.

Equivalent of "Filco Ping"

BTW... my board pings like crazy. Hurrrrrrr  ;D

Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 16 January 2013, 03:22:59
Not really new, I've been hearing of it for around 6 months.

Of my two boards with MX blues, one has a couple of switches that are less clicky.  All other switches are fine, and none seem to be losing their click.

If anything the less clicky switches seem to be getting more clicky, which is a good ting :)
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 16 January 2013, 03:24:36
Not really new, I've been hearing of it for around 6 months.

Of my two boards with MX blues, one has a couple of switches that are less clicky.  All other switches are fine, and none seem to be losing their click.

If anything the less clicky switches seem to be getting more clicky, which is a good ting :)

Ok, see this is where we lose too much precision and get into the "summer of Ping... part 3"
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 16 January 2013, 03:56:39
I've worked on a lot of keyboard, and only 2 keys from 1 keyboard has this issue where the clicking is intermittent. OP, if you have "tons of keys" that have this problem, I'd say you're pretty unlucky. Not every board with mx blues will have this problem.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: VesperSAINT on Wed, 16 January 2013, 07:20:07
I think this is a more recent issue. I have a Cherry MX Green keyboard where one or two of my switches has this issue out of the box, one being bad enough to the point where there can be no click, depending on how I press it. My friend had to get his brand new Cherry MX Blue keyboard replaced twice because they both had multiple bad switches out of the box.

I honestly think that it's a mixture of bad luck with a drop in quality control among all companies in today's market. I miss the good ol' 90's. My older keyboard with the older "sky blue" switches came with all perfect switches and is still running like a champion after years of use.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: BearManJim on Wed, 16 January 2013, 08:12:16
This is a definitely a "new" complaint people has had...

I beg to differ. You saw in my The difficult second keyboard... (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39247.msg766084#msg766084) thread that 1391406 went through 5 different Razor Widows instore before finding one that sounded and felt consistent. Some keys didn't click at all. That was eighteen months ago.

When I bought the first QPAD MK-80 back in November and encountered two silent keys, I searched on here for related issues and found this thread;

So I bought a CM QuickFire rapid with blues and I love it (only a few weeks old). That being said, I've noticed that while typing some keys make a much more pronounced click than the others. In fact, some dont even sound like they're clicking at all sometimes. They still register though.

I've extended the search and found some that are even older;

My das which I intend to keep despite the rollover problems has one switch that is in-audible.
I wonder if there is a way to fix it without invalidating my warranty.

one key on my das s pro only clicks if i hit the very bottom left edge of it. if i press it in the center like i usually would it does not click. is there any way i can fix this?

So, my right Alt's switch on my Filco has gone wonky. It actuates correctly, but it doesn't click - either in terms of sound or tactility. I tried pressing the switch down and airdusting into it, but that did nothing. It's definitely not a keycap issue. Any suggestions?

The last thread however also had a happy ending;

I fixed it. I was looking at the switch and I noticed that there was a gap in the bottom on the left hand side, through which a hair was stuck. I removed the hair with a tweezers and the switch started clicking again.

If the OP's hair is as lustrous as his avatar of Ron Swanson suggests, it may be relevant?
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Bry on Wed, 16 January 2013, 13:38:58
Anyone know if the browns can lose their sound? Thanks.

What sound?
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Wed, 16 January 2013, 14:29:31
ugh. i really didn't feel like having to open it but i guess i  have no choice. i really wish i had a key removing tool
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Wed, 16 January 2013, 14:31:12
i dont even know how to open this thing. there are no visible screws. i hope i dont have to tear the rubber pads off to open it
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 16 January 2013, 14:33:49
i dont even know how to open this thing. there are no visible screws. i hope i dont have to tear the rubber pads off to open it

No you don't, 1 screw under the quality check sticker.

Pretty sure it voids the warranty though.  :))

But the only SURE WAY to fix it is to buy a "new switch" and replace the "non click" one...

Diatec Will send you replacement switches for free, if you're angry enough..

Practice your angry voice  >:D >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: lazerpointer on Wed, 16 January 2013, 16:15:22
I blame the switch design, too many tiny parts, with not enough precision.

This. Cherry blues are a great idea but I myself have experienced the above crappiness of MX Blues. I can however vouch for the other Cherry switches - no problems there.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Wed, 16 January 2013, 16:27:56
does anyone know who to contact at diatec for something like this? their site has little to no info that i could see.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: rootwyrm on Wed, 16 January 2013, 22:19:54
http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/aboutus.php#CU

Have at it...
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Loligagger on Wed, 16 January 2013, 22:56:27
I've had this sort of thing happen with my mx whites as well. A few switches seemed to spontaneously lose much of their click, and feel mushy in comparison to others. I have enough extra switches to replace them if it happens again, but it's still disconcerting.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Wed, 16 January 2013, 22:57:21
http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/aboutus.php#CU

Have at it...

I'm going to be so ****ing polite. they will not know what hit them. The chopsticks are going to fly out of their hands and hit the gong behind them!
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: VesperSAINT on Wed, 16 January 2013, 23:05:52
I'm going to be so ****ing polite. they will not know what hit them. The chopsticks are going to fly out of their hands and hit the gong behind them!

uhhhh... lolwut
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: firebt on Wed, 16 January 2013, 23:43:27
Weird.  Possibly you have been mashing on them a little hard and maybe it got stuck or something?

I highly doubt soldering would damage the switch...I just desoldered and removed some switches for clean and some lube due to some damn ginger ale i spilled.

The plastic is tough, meaning that even excessive heat does not warp the plastic, I know because my soldering iron has tapped the plastic parts and have had some pretty high heat applied near the switches with no issues. 

I personally think that perhaps Cherry didn't lube them well enough or something.  I only say this because the last time I cleaned out my switches with soap and water to get out all the grime, and I put it all together, and I noticed that I could distinctly hear the spring compressing and decompressing, kind of like an old spring bed.  I realized it was the spring grabbing on the plunger and then rubbing against it causing that sound.  After some lube, voila.  Smoother than my other stock switches.

Bottom line:  Take it apart, clean it up, and try to run some high end grease or lube (full synthetic, no petroleum, PTFE preferred).  I'm almost certain that it should free up the clicky mechanism. 

Personally, RMA would take forever. I would just order some new switches and install them, or try to fix my old ones with the method i mentioned above.

However, I have heard that lubing blues can drastically reduce the click, so I mean, try one, and see how it goes. Plus you can always take it apart and clean it out anyway.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Wed, 16 January 2013, 23:55:22
Weird.  Possibly you have been mashing on them a little hard and maybe it got stuck or something?

I highly doubt soldering would damage the switch...I just desoldered and removed some switches for clean and some lube due to some damn ginger ale i spilled.

The plastic is tough, meaning that even excessive heat does not warp the plastic, I know because my soldering iron has tapped the plastic parts and have had some pretty high heat applied near the switches with no issues. 

I personally think that perhaps Cherry didn't lube them well enough or something.  I only say this because the last time I cleaned out my switches with soap and water to get out all the grime, and I put it all together, and I noticed that I could distinctly hear the spring compressing and decompressing, kind of like an old spring bed.  I realized it was the spring grabbing on the plunger and then rubbing against it causing that sound.  After some lube, voila.  Smoother than my other stock switches.

Bottom line:  Take it apart, clean it up, and try to run some high end grease or lube (full synthetic, no petroleum, PTFE preferred).  I'm almost certain that it should free up the clicky mechanism. 

Personally, RMA would take forever. I would just order some new switches and install them, or try to fix my old ones with the method i mentioned above.

However, I have heard that lubing blues can drastically reduce the click, so I mean, try one, and see how it goes. Plus you can always take it apart and clean it out anyway.

i sent diatec an email. i'm not replacing the switches myself when it's less than 30 days old.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: firebt on Fri, 18 January 2013, 11:24:05
Weird.  Possibly you have been mashing on them a little hard and maybe it got stuck or something?

I highly doubt soldering would damage the switch...I just desoldered and removed some switches for clean and some lube due to some damn ginger ale i spilled.

The plastic is tough, meaning that even excessive heat does not warp the plastic, I know because my soldering iron has tapped the plastic parts and have had some pretty high heat applied near the switches with no issues. 

I personally think that perhaps Cherry didn't lube them well enough or something.  I only say this because the last time I cleaned out my switches with soap and water to get out all the grime, and I put it all together, and I noticed that I could distinctly hear the spring compressing and decompressing, kind of like an old spring bed.  I realized it was the spring grabbing on the plunger and then rubbing against it causing that sound.  After some lube, voila.  Smoother than my other stock switches.

Bottom line:  Take it apart, clean it up, and try to run some high end grease or lube (full synthetic, no petroleum, PTFE preferred).  I'm almost certain that it should free up the clicky mechanism. 

Personally, RMA would take forever. I would just order some new switches and install them, or try to fix my old ones with the method i mentioned above.

However, I have heard that lubing blues can drastically reduce the click, so I mean, try one, and see how it goes. Plus you can always take it apart and clean it out anyway.

i sent diatec an email. i'm not replacing the switches myself when it's less than 30 days old.

For sure.  You will have to wait a pretty darn long time though.  I would personally just have them send me a bunch of new switches, like 10 of them, so i can just replace them for free over the years at any time.  And realize that if you learn how to do this once it it's really awesome since you can install whatever switches you want into whatever keys, which is pretty cool. And later, for backlit keyboards, you can install whatever color LEDs into whichever slots as well.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tufty on Fri, 18 January 2013, 14:35:01
Anyone know if the browns can lose their sound? Thanks.

What sound?
this one (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/151766/the-brown-noise)
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 15:27:43
Weird.  Possibly you have been mashing on them a little hard and maybe it got stuck or something?

I highly doubt soldering would damage the switch...I just desoldered and removed some switches for clean and some lube due to some damn ginger ale i spilled.

The plastic is tough, meaning that even excessive heat does not warp the plastic, I know because my soldering iron has tapped the plastic parts and have had some pretty high heat applied near the switches with no issues. 

I personally think that perhaps Cherry didn't lube them well enough or something.  I only say this because the last time I cleaned out my switches with soap and water to get out all the grime, and I put it all together, and I noticed that I could distinctly hear the spring compressing and decompressing, kind of like an old spring bed.  I realized it was the spring grabbing on the plunger and then rubbing against it causing that sound.  After some lube, voila.  Smoother than my other stock switches.

Bottom line:  Take it apart, clean it up, and try to run some high end grease or lube (full synthetic, no petroleum, PTFE preferred).  I'm almost certain that it should free up the clicky mechanism. 

Personally, RMA would take forever. I would just order some new switches and install them, or try to fix my old ones with the method i mentioned above.

However, I have heard that lubing blues can drastically reduce the click, so I mean, try one, and see how it goes. Plus you can always take it apart and clean it out anyway.

i sent diatec an email. i'm not replacing the switches myself when it's less than 30 days old.

For sure.  You will have to wait a pretty darn long time though.  I would personally just have them send me a bunch of new switches, like 10 of them, so i can just replace them for free over the years at any time.  And realize that if you learn how to do this once it it's really awesome since you can install whatever switches you want into whatever keys, which is pretty cool. And later, for backlit keyboards, you can install whatever color LEDs into whichever slots as well.

Soldering is honestly the EXACT same as hot glue... Only difference, do NOT breath the smoke...
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: rootwyrm on Fri, 18 January 2013, 16:06:43
Soldering is honestly the EXACT same as hot glue... Only difference, do NOT breath the smoke...

(http://i.qkme.me/eb6.jpg)
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 16:14:29
Soldering is honestly the EXACT same as hot glue... Only difference, do NOT breath the smoke...

Show Image
(http://i.qkme.me/eb6.jpg)


You got your Glue stick vs Solder

You have to Heat both to melting point

You have to bring 2 pieces of the things you want to join Together, and dab the "stuff" on..

You're the stupid one for not seeing the analogies
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: KuhnTang on Fri, 18 January 2013, 16:24:04
Soldering is honestly the EXACT same as hot glue... Only difference, do NOT breath the smoke...

Show Image
(http://i.qkme.me/eb6.jpg)


You got your Glue stick vs Solder

You have to Heat both to melting point

You have to bring 2 pieces of the things you want to join Together, and dab the "stuff" on..

You're the stupid one for not seeing the analogies

You mad bro?
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 16:28:43
Soldering is honestly the EXACT same as hot glue... Only difference, do NOT breath the smoke...

Show Image
(http://i.qkme.me/eb6.jpg)


You got your Glue stick vs Solder

You have to Heat both to melting point

You have to bring 2 pieces of the things you want to join Together, and dab the "stuff" on..

You're the stupid one for not seeing the analogies

You mad bro?

YES!

that's right sucka what now. you done F#$%ed up.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: zer0 on Fri, 18 January 2013, 16:35:20
Remove the keycap, press the key in, drop one drop of Zippo lighter gasoline, for them Zippos, leave for a couple of minutes, press the switch a couple of times and voila worked for me like a charm, the switch is clicking and working like it should.
I read that trick somewhere in here.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: KuhnTang on Fri, 18 January 2013, 16:46:16
Soldering is honestly the EXACT same as hot glue... Only difference, do NOT breath the smoke...

Show Image
(http://i.qkme.me/eb6.jpg)


You got your Glue stick vs Solder

You have to Heat both to melting point

You have to bring 2 pieces of the things you want to join Together, and dab the "stuff" on..

You're the stupid one for not seeing the analogies

You mad bro?

YES!

that's right sucka what now. you done F#$%ed up.

Ha
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 18 January 2013, 17:02:39
I was transferring my Jailhouse Blues from my Race to my Filco last night and had a chance to experiment with this issue.

I had nearly new Blue stems and a complete set of brand new switch housings that had never been installed.
Out of 90 housings, 3 of them had no tactile feel to them, and unless the tactile bump works, you will not get the click sound as it's what fires the bottom half of the switch down to make the click sound. No matter what stem or top I used, they simply wouldn't work properly. Some also had more feel than others, and again, switching the stem and tops changed nothing, it was only the housing/base that mattered.

Looking inside the switch, they appear perfectly fine, but it turns out that the difference between working and not is extremely small, less than 1mm. Sometimes you can see it, sometimes you can't.

It's a manufacturing issue, specifically how the gold piece is inserted into the plastic.
Depending on how it's placed, will also determine the tactility and noise level.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 17:06:05
I was transferring my Jailhouse Blues from my Race to my Filco last night and had a chance to experiment with this issue.

I had nearly new Blue stems and a complete set of brand new switch housings that had never been installed.
Out of 90 housings, 3 of them had no tactile feel to them, and unless the tactile bump works, you will not get the click sound as it's what fires the bottom half of the switch down to make the click sound. No matter what stem or top I used, they simply wouldn't work properly. Some also had more feel than others, and again, switching the stem and tops changed nothing, it was only the housing/base that mattered.

Looking inside the switch, they appear perfectly fine, but it turns out that the difference between working and not is extremely small, less than 1mm. Sometimes you can see it, sometimes you can't.

It's a manufacturing issue, specifically how the gold piece is inserted into the plastic.
Depending on how it's placed, will also determine the tactility and noise level.

So..... it's "not" overheating issue when soldering? I'd think that heat could cause the metal clip to Tilt inside the housing if the holes they're stuck into got "HOT."
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 18 January 2013, 17:49:51
So..... it's "not" overheating issue when soldering? I'd think that heat could cause the metal clip to Tilt inside the housing if the holes they're stuck into got "HOT."

That could effect them as well, but these had never been soldered to a pcb or exposed to any heat or anything and were like this. All I did was pull apart a brand new clear switch that I recently got from 7Bit, swapped stems and springs, and they didn't work right.



Edit:
Out of curiosity I put the clear stem and springs back in, they too had no tactility. Again, these are brand new and never attached to a board.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: machmkv on Fri, 18 January 2013, 17:56:21
It's still so unacceptable these costar manufacturers are willing to put these bad switches in the keyboards and sell it off.  I'm mainly talking about coolermaster because they need to get their QC in check for selling a bunch of broken keyboards.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 18:07:48
It's still so unacceptable these costar manufacturers are willing to put these bad switches in the keyboards and sell it off.  I'm mainly talking about coolermaster because they need to get their QC in check for selling a bunch of broken keyboards.

They can't QC the individual switches without a HUGE added cost..

Think what they'd have to do..  Press 87keys and LISTEN to them....

they can do this with "people" or "machine"

With people, it's probably WAY too slow...


"Machine", they'd need one that produce minimal mechanical noise, and separate it from the rest of the production line, which is normally LOUD AS HELL...  :)) :))

Completely Unpossible...   the best they can do is confirm that each switch "works" and they do do this..

They're better off just shipping out the broken board, then offering replacements...

Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 18 January 2013, 18:29:00
It's still so unacceptable these costar manufacturers are willing to put these bad switches in the keyboards and sell it off.  I'm mainly talking about coolermaster because they need to get their QC in check for selling a bunch of broken keyboards.

I spoke about this elsewhere, but basically, quality control is a HUGE problem in China.
I know a few who have done manufacturing there and it's like working with the mafia. The phrase "buyer beware" has never been more true.

Basically if you don't specify EXACTLY what you want, for every step of the way, otherwise you can pretty much expect a sub-par product every time. They know it, and they also know that as soon as you leave, another company will be knocking and looking for cheap manufacturing.

You could order a standardized grade 8 bolt, and the manufacturer will buy grade 5 material and label it grade 8, this you expect. However, what often happens is that when the manufacturer asked for grade 5, the supplier sold him grade 3.

Scarily enough, this is actually what has happened in the North American aviation industry. Boxes of these fake bolts got into the supply lines.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: VesperSAINT on Fri, 18 January 2013, 18:33:28
I spoke about this elsewhere, but basically, quality control is a HUGE problem in China.
I know a few who have done manufacturing there and it's like working with the mafia. The phrase "buyer beware" has never been more true.

Basically if you don't specify EXACTLY what you want, for every step of the way, otherwise you can pretty much expect a sub-par product every time. They know it, and they also know that as soon as you leave, another company will be knocking and looking for cheap manufacturing.

You could order a standardized grade 8 bolt, and the manufacturer will buy grade 5 material and label it grade 8, this you expect. However, what often happens is that when the manufacturer asked for grade 5, the supplier sold him grade 3.

Scarily enough, this is actually what has happened in the North American aviation industry. Boxes of these fake bolts got into the supply lines.

Now THAT is something to think about... Not even funny when you think about it...

On another note, you say "China" but does that include Taiwan?
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 18:40:10
I spoke about this elsewhere, but basically, quality control is a HUGE problem in China.
I know a few who have done manufacturing there and it's like working with the mafia. The phrase "buyer beware" has never been more true.

Basically if you don't specify EXACTLY what you want, for every step of the way, otherwise you can pretty much expect a sub-par product every time. They know it, and they also know that as soon as you leave, another company will be knocking and looking for cheap manufacturing.

You could order a standardized grade 8 bolt, and the manufacturer will buy grade 5 material and label it grade 8, this you expect. However, what often happens is that when the manufacturer asked for grade 5, the supplier sold him grade 3.

Scarily enough, this is actually what has happened in the North American aviation industry. Boxes of these fake bolts got into the supply lines.

Now THAT is something to think about... Not even funny when you think about it...

This is because of the legal system in China...

In China... For the most part, you can't sue the owners of the industries because they essentially own the courts as well.


In the USA you can sue the SHizzznitz out of a dog that barked at you funny...  This is not to say that the RICH doesn't own the court, but the system has become convoluted enough such that you can't get away with as much...
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: VesperSAINT on Fri, 18 January 2013, 18:41:10
This is because of the legal system in China...

In China... For the most part, you can't sue the owners of the industries because they essentially own the courts as well.


In the USA you can sue the SHizzznitz out of a dog that barked at you funny...  This is not to say that the RICH doesn't own the court, but the system has become convoluted enough such that you can't get away with as much...


Any comments on the China vs. Taiwan?
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 18:44:46
This is because of the legal system in China...

In China... For the most part, you can't sue the owners of the industries because they essentially own the courts as well.


In the USA you can sue the SHizzznitz out of a dog that barked at you funny...  This is not to say that the RICH doesn't own the court, but the system has become convoluted enough such that you can't get away with as much...


Any comments on the China vs. Taiwan?

Same country bro... same policies... they can call it a democracy all they want... that doesn't make it true...

Also... China has a very very loose accounting standard...

I have friends that applied for accounting work in China...

Basically,, if you're an accountant who "Don't know" how to cook books, they won't hire you.


The few "male" accountants I've worked with in China are the sleaziest MOFOS on the planet probably..

They pretty much are free to drink and whor3 as much as they want on the government books... Because the budget is ridiculous and nearly infinite with respect to hookers and dining.. You could never spend that much money on basic human urges.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: VesperSAINT on Fri, 18 January 2013, 18:48:27
Same country bro... same policies... they can call it a democracy all they want... that doesn't make it true...

Also... China has a very very loose accounting standard...

I have friends that applied for accounting work in China...

Basically,, if you're an accountant who "Don't know" how to cook books, they won't hire you.




Lol, I wasn't really asking about the political stance of the two countries but more so if Taiwan's manufacturing was the same as Mainland China's in terms of poor quality control but, assuming from your tone, you were answering that simultaneously. Didn't really know about the accounting thing though :P
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Fri, 18 January 2013, 18:58:10
so someone needs to open a switch company that manufactures them in the US. btw i spoke to diatec and they refuse to RMA for this problem or for my number row grinding against the body of the keyboard. they said they would swap out the switches if i send it to tokyo but im waiting to see if they will just send the switches to me.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:01:07
so someone needs to open a switch company that manufactures them in the US. btw i spoke to diatec and they refuse to RMA for this problem or for my number row grinding against the body of the keyboard. they said they would swap out the switches if i send it to tokyo but im waiting to see if they will just send the switches to me.

Where did you buy, amazon?
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: firebt on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:06:56
Same country bro... same policies... they can call it a democracy all they want... that doesn't make it true...

Also... China has a very very loose accounting standard...

I have friends that applied for accounting work in China...

Basically,, if you're an accountant who "Don't know" how to cook books, they won't hire you.




Lol, I wasn't really asking about the political stance of the two countries but more so if Taiwan's manufacturing was the same as Mainland China's in terms of poor quality control but, assuming from your tone, you were answering that simultaneously. Didn't really know about the accounting thing though :P

(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif)

But on a more realistic note,

I'm thinking Taiwanese products are slightly better than Chinese.  I mean, it wouldn't be a huge margin but there should be a noticeable difference.  Ultimately, it just depends on who you get your stuff from.  Apple has Foxconn which apparently still produces good stuff so to generalize everything isn't always the best approach. 
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:18:37
so someone needs to open a switch company that manufactures them in the US. btw i spoke to diatec and they refuse to RMA for this problem or for my number row grinding against the body of the keyboard. they said they would swap out the switches if i send it to tokyo but im waiting to see if they will just send the switches to me.
It would be cheaper to hire someone here to just do it for you.
By the time you figure time and shipping expense.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: VesperSAINT on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:18:46
Show Image
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif)


But on a more realistic note,

I'm thinking Taiwanese products are slightly better than Chinese.  I mean, it wouldn't be a huge margin but there should be a noticeable difference.  Ultimately, it just depends on who you get your stuff from.  Apple has Foxconn which apparently still produces good stuff so to generalize everything isn't always the best approach. 


Haha! I wasn't complaining about the way he answered but rather clarifying my question so he doesn't misunderstand. I was also expressing my understanding of his answer/point.

On another note, I also thought Taiwan had better manufacturing and quality control than China but I guess I was wrong. Many people seem to be complaining about Filco's going **** too.

It would be cheaper to hire someone here to just do it for you.
By the time you figure time and shipping expense.

Agreed, if he's willing to void his warranty, of course. At this point though, that warranty seems pretty useless.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:26:06
so someone needs to open a switch company that manufactures them in the US. btw i spoke to diatec and they refuse to RMA for this problem or for my number row grinding against the body of the keyboard. they said they would swap out the switches if i send it to tokyo but im waiting to see if they will just send the switches to me.

Where did you buy, amazon?

yes.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tauburn on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:28:33
so someone needs to open a switch company that manufactures them in the US. btw i spoke to diatec and they refuse to RMA for this problem or for my number row grinding against the body of the keyboard. they said they would swap out the switches if i send it to tokyo but im waiting to see if they will just send the switches to me.
It would be cheaper to hire someone here to just do it for you.
By the time you figure time and shipping expense.

if they do send me the switches, i'll probably just sell or trade them on here. i don't really care that much about the blue not clicking completely as long as i get some sort of compensation for it. i don't want to risk screwing it up in the soldering if all the keys are registering electronically. im out of money pretty much so im not hiring anyone to do anything.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:41:17
It would be cheaper to hire someone here to just do it for you.
By the time you figure time and shipping expense.

if they do send me the switches, i'll probably just sell or trade them on here. i don't really care that much about the blue not clicking completely as long as i get some sort of compensation for it. i don't want to risk screwing it up in the soldering if all the keys are registering electronically. im out of money pretty much so im not hiring anyone to do anything.
[/quote]

The toughest part of desoldering is the equipment.
It's actually pretty hard to damage a Filco beyond repair due to how they built it.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: rootwyrm on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:44:39
I spoke about this elsewhere, but basically, quality control is a HUGE problem in China.
I know a few who have done manufacturing there and it's like working with the mafia. The phrase "buyer beware" has never been more true.

Basically if you don't specify EXACTLY what you want, for every step of the way, otherwise you can pretty much expect a sub-par product every time. They know it, and they also know that as soon as you leave, another company will be knocking and looking for cheap manufacturing.

You could order a standardized grade 8 bolt, and the manufacturer will buy grade 5 material and label it grade 8, this you expect. However, what often happens is that when the manufacturer asked for grade 5, the supplier sold him grade 3.

Scarily enough, this is actually what has happened in the North American aviation industry. Boxes of these fake bolts got into the supply lines.

Now THAT is something to think about... Not even funny when you think about it...

On another note, you say "China" but does that include Taiwan?

What, you think that a narrow strip of water actually makes the least bit of difference?

HA!

Oh wait. You were serious. You actually believe that Taiwan is magically better than China despite the same people running the same companies with the same ethics and just occasionally changing the name. You so silly.
Yes. Because obviously a keyboard labeled as 'from Taiwan' wasn't made in China even though it was actually made in mainland China and just passed through Taiwan. And obviously Hon Hai Precision Industry, a Taiwanese company, is not the same as Foxco-OH WAIT, THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME.

Also, Cherry switches are manufactured in EUROPE. Not China. IIRC ZF Electronics AKA Cherry switch manufacturing is still out of Bayreuth, Germany.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: BearManJim on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:50:54
If you bought the keyboard from Amazon, it was originally sourced from the Keyboard Co, here in the UK? Is it worth contacting them for help? They'll legally obliged to honour your warranty, aren't they?
We offer a 1 year 'return to base' warranty on hardware. (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_tacs.asp)
I think you'd have to fork out though for shipping to the UK?

I was transferring my Jailhouse Blues from my Race to my Filco last night and had a chance to experiment with this issue.

I had nearly new Blue stems and a complete set of brand new switch housings that had never been installed.
Out of 90 housings, 3 of them had no tactile feel to them, and unless the tactile bump works, you will not get the click sound as it's what fires the bottom half of the switch down to make the click sound. No matter what stem or top I used, they simply wouldn't work properly. Some also had more feel than others, and again, switching the stem and tops changed nothing, it was only the housing/base that mattered.

Looking inside the switch, they appear perfectly fine, but it turns out that the difference between working and not is extremely small, less than 1mm. Sometimes you can see it, sometimes you can't.

It's a manufacturing issue, specifically how the gold piece is inserted into the plastic.
Depending on how it's placed, will also determine the tactility and noise level.

Superb analysis Leslieann. So Cherry indeed are at the root of the issue? The fault tolerance of their blue switch is too low? Given that deviations of less than 1mm ruin the the sound/tactility of the switch?! Surely the design needs to be improved?! With a estimated failure rate of over 3% (only going by Leileann's experiment), no blue equipped board is safe from these defective switches! QC may minimise the impact but given all these recent occurrences, it's obviously not being effectively policed.

Are Cherry switches manufactured in China though? Or even Europe for that matter?! According to Wiki, Cherry were bought out by ZF Friedrichshafen back in 2008 (coincides neatly at the same time non-clicky issues started appearing on this forum). Perhaps manufacturing responsibilities shifted to another site? The company maintains production facilities in Europe (most notably in Bayreuth, Germany), Asia as well as the Americas. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_%28keyboards%29) The company is also in partnership with ZF Electronics TVS (an Indian-based company) who have a manufacturing facility over in Madurai?

Regardless of who is now responsible for manufacturing these switches, Cherry R&D over in Auerbach in der Oberpfalz need to find a way of increasing the fault tolerance of the blue switch so that even after manufacturing and/or assembly botch-ups - it continues to feel and sound as it should.

Until then, I will probably not attempt to buy another Cherry MX blue equipped keyboard. At least not from QPAD, Razor, Cooler Master, Filco or DAS (avoiding Costar and iOne). 50 million keystrokes... What a joke!
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:51:57
If you bought from amazon.. I think you can return it to amazon... even though it's a different seller, because if it was fullfilled the amazon.. the return will also be handled by them..
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: VesperSAINT on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:57:27

What, you think that a narrow strip of water actually makes the least bit of difference?

HA!

Oh wait. You were serious. You actually believe that Taiwan is magically better than China despite the same people running the same companies with the same ethics and just occasionally changing the name. You so silly.
Yes. Because obviously a keyboard labeled as 'from Taiwan' wasn't made in China even though it was actually made in mainland China and just passed through Taiwan. And obviously Hon Hai Precision Industry, a Taiwanese company, is not the same as Foxco-OH WAIT, THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME.

Also, Cherry switches are manufactured in EUROPE. Not China. IIRC ZF Electronics AKA Cherry switch manufacturing is still out of Bayreuth, Germany.

(http://acc.blogs.starnewsonline.com/files/2011/11/Edsall-at-a-loss.jpg)

Lol... Anyone sensing some anger here? I'm kind of at a loss. You assume so many things from my simple question... All I did was ask if Taiwanese companies like Filco had bad quality control like that of some Chinese companies described by Leslieann. That's it. Thanks for answering my question, I guess?
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 18 January 2013, 19:59:17
I'm pretty sure Cherry makes batches of switches in China, I can't remember where I read this.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: BearManJim on Fri, 18 January 2013, 20:03:45
Until then, I will probably not attempt to buy another Cherry MX blue equipped keyboard. At least not from QPAD, Razor, Cooler Master, Filco or DAS (avoiding Costar and iOne). 50 million clicks... What a joke!

Not to worry.  Matias has some well made clicky Alps worthy of your dollars.

I will certainly look into it! :)
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: rootwyrm on Fri, 18 January 2013, 21:51:19

What, you think that a narrow strip of water actually makes the least bit of difference?

HA!

Oh wait. You were serious. You actually believe that Taiwan is magically better than China despite the same people running the same companies with the same ethics and just occasionally changing the name. You so silly.
Yes. Because obviously a keyboard labeled as 'from Taiwan' wasn't made in China even though it was actually made in mainland China and just passed through Taiwan. And obviously Hon Hai Precision Industry, a Taiwanese company, is not the same as Foxco-OH WAIT, THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME.

Also, Cherry switches are manufactured in EUROPE. Not China. IIRC ZF Electronics AKA Cherry switch manufacturing is still out of Bayreuth, Germany.
Lol... Anyone sensing some anger here? I'm kind of at a loss. You assume so many things from my simple question... All I did was ask if Taiwanese companies like Filco had bad quality control like that of some Chinese companies described by Leslieann. That's it. Thanks for answering my question, I guess?

Eh, just tired of debunking the complete crap of the 'Made in Taiwan' myth. (Emphasis on myth.) Same as the ridiculous idea that Costar is automatically good and iOne is automatically bad. They hire well educated designers in Taiwan and Hong Kong and Japan and through contractors, then they send the actual manufacturing work to where it's cheap - which could be Taiwan, could be China, could be Indonesia - and still get to slap the 'Made in Taiwan' label on it and call it a day.
Foxconn made these poorly designed low quality motherboards (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/foxconn_4.html) and also happens to make the iPhone. Those piles and piles of defective leaky capacitors all came from factories actually located in Taiwan, not mainland China. Delta's plants in mainland China have turned out some of the most beautiful solder work I have ever seen alongside some of the worst.

The 'Made in XYZ' means nothing at all. Either the manufacturer has a solid design, good manufacturing and reliable QC/QA or they don't.
Title: Re: blue switches without click
Post by: VesperSAINT on Sat, 19 January 2013, 03:04:43
Eh, just tired of debunking the complete crap of the 'Made in Taiwan' myth. (Emphasis on myth.) Same as the ridiculous idea that Costar is automatically good and iOne is automatically bad. They hire well educated designers in Taiwan and Hong Kong and Japan and through contractors, then they send the actual manufacturing work to where it's cheap - which could be Taiwan, could be China, could be Indonesia - and still get to slap the 'Made in Taiwan' label on it and call it a day.
Foxconn made these poorly designed low quality motherboards (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/foxconn_4.html) and also happens to make the iPhone. Those piles and piles of defective leaky capacitors all came from factories actually located in Taiwan, not mainland China. Delta's plants in mainland China have turned out some of the most beautiful solder work I have ever seen alongside some of the worst.

The 'Made in XYZ' means nothing at all. Either the manufacturer has a solid design, good manufacturing and reliable QC/QA or they don't.

Ah I see. Well thank you for explaining! Learning new things about keyboards all the time here :)