geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Rafen on Thu, 24 January 2013, 18:49:50
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I have been eyeing this realforce for the last 2 years and I am thinking about pulling the trigger on it. The only question I have is does the rubber cup in the switch seem to wear down after a while like a normal rubber dome? Please only answer on this if you own a Topre board. Appreciate the help.
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rubber HAS a shelf-life whether you USE IT or NOT.... this is fact..
it has also been confirmed by Ripster, that the rubberdomes "harden" overtime, and increases the activation force by about 5grams
this is supposedly because the oil leaves the polymer
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Another factor that would have a great influence here is "bottoming out"
On standard rubber dome, because the switch only activates when you press it all the way down,, people often end up pressing their keys HARDER and HARDER to ensure the correct input..
this would put far greater strain on the rubber dome keys, than if the person "did not" bottom out..
Now, since the topre activates at 2mm, people wouldn't be motivated to put so much pressure on the rubber domes... thus lengthening the working life of the "topre" keys
Why do I bring this up...
It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...
the reason it MAY last longer is ONE due to the reason I've mentioned above... AND another very real possibility that people "having paid $300" for their beloved rubber dome,, tend to "BABY" the thing..
I have friends that bought their R32 and never pull out of 4th....
This, "babying effect" would significantly reduce wear on the board,, but your typing experience is NOT at all the "raw" to the point, rather a "limited decaf" feel.
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rubber HAS a shelf-life whether you USE IT or NOT.... this is fact..
Any idea what time frame we are talking here?
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I think in a recent thread a 2006 Topre board showed slightly higher activation, so probably in 5-10+ years.
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I don't think it is possible to baby a topre key...You will bottom out..there is really no stopping it..the drop out in force is far too great for anyone to not bottom out regularly...You can try to not bottom out but it is a waste of time...
So there isn't any extra force or less force when you're bottoming out..the rubber will go up and down..that is just how it is...
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You will bottom out..there is really no stopping it..the drop out in force is far too great for anyone to not bottom out regularly...You can try to not bottom out but it is a waste of time...
Not unless you have 30g domes :) I rarely bottom out on mine.
But on 45g, I bottom out even when I try my hardest not to.
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So basically it will wear down and probably faster if i use it for my daily driver? I dont really think the price tag is worth it now.
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haha tp topre-blocks another one
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lol gogo tp4tissue for the block! :p
Look, the only way you'll know if you like it, is to try it. Will the 5g activation make that big a difference, probably not if you you're not thinking about it. Technically he's right about the wear, as it will wear a little faster then a cherry mechanical as there is a rubber component. Think it's rated to 30 million strokes however, and MX switches are rated to 50 million. You're paying the price point because of the feel, nothing else. And nothing else feels like a topre, whether for good or bad. It does NOT feel like a rubber dome, and it DOES NOT feel like a cherry switch.
It will outlast your current computer for at least 3 upgrades, I would say, if not more. How much are you spending on that?
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I don't think it is possible to baby a topre key...You will bottom out..there is really no stopping it..the drop out in force is far too great for anyone to not bottom out regularly...You can try to not bottom out but it is a waste of time...
So there isn't any extra force or less force when you're bottoming out..the rubber will go up and down..that is just how it is...
No, I'm not talking about the regular "lightly" bottoming out
I'm talking about really DIGGING in when you're frustrated with a "regular" rubber dome key not activating...
It is unlikely that you will "mechanically" wear-out a topre keyboard from regular use + good technique...
Now as for the "harden-ing".. this happens within 2-3 years depending on the temperature variations in your office...
As for "shelf-life" of the rubber.. IF completely unused it's around 15 years from production date....
Whether or NOT it's "worth it" ... the cost isn't significant considering it'll last "at least 3-5 years".. so if you consider $300, that's $60 a year which is nothing...
I mean, compare that to what some people pay for their mobile internet service, :)) :)) Suckers
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It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...
I'd really like to know what you're basing this off of.
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It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...
I'd really like to know what you're basing this off of.
several dell quiet keys//compaq branded that are "very old" and feel like new.
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I wouldn't call those standard rubber domes.
I think the difference is more in the quality of the rubber used.
The old Dell quietkeys are very highly regarded as far as rubber dome boards go. I would be more interested in comparing the actual rubber used between a Topre, those old Dell QuietKeys, and something like this (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Wired-Keyboard-200-Business/dp/B004SUILFO/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1359090891&sr=8-9&keywords=dell+keyboard).
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I wouldn't call those standard rubber domes.
I think the difference is more in the quality of the rubber used.
The old Dell quietkeys are very highly regarded as far as rubber dome boards go. I would be more interested in comparing the actual rubber used between a Topre, those old Dell QuietKeys, and something like this (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Wired-Keyboard-200-Business/dp/B004SUILFO/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1359090891&sr=8-9&keywords=dell+keyboard).
Someone should rip them all apart....for science!!!!
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I wouldn't call those standard rubber domes.
I think the difference is more in the quality of the rubber used.
The old Dell quietkeys are very highly regarded as far as rubber dome boards go. I would be more interested in comparing the actual rubber used between a Topre, those old Dell QuietKeys, and something like this (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Wired-Keyboard-200-Business/dp/B004SUILFO/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1359090891&sr=8-9&keywords=dell+keyboard).
Someone should rip them all apart....for science!!!!
they're very good and very yellow... ;D
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Imo, it kinda comparing a WRX vs a BMW. The money spent to fully mod the WRX is greater than buying a stock BMW. :))
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It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...
i have 20 years old rubber domes. they work fine.
It does NOT feel like a rubber dome
a rubber dome keyboard that doesn't feel like a rubber dome? strange. very strange.
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Imo, it kinda comparing a WRX vs a BMW. The money spent to fully mod the WRX is greater than buying a stock BMW. :))
ahh... yea.... kinda.. I'm not a fan of the newer bmws because they're significantly more costly to fix due to placements of the "electronic gizmos"
I think if anyone was to get a "tuner" bmw, they aught to go for an older diesel version...
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So basically if I buy a Realforce the rubber will harden but I wouldn't notice it? What I have been thinking is that if I don't buy one of those I could just buy a couple more cherry boards and I should be good on my collection.
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Why haven't i ever heard about the rubber becoming harder to press over time before? :mad: Maybe it's not noticeable to most people. I really love my HHKB but in 5 years or so they may come out with a wireless or even better keyboard for me. I have had the Real Force and it is a great keyboard but i think it is over priced just like the HHKB. But, if you can afford it buy it. I think you won't regret it. ;D
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Yeah most people who buy them love em. I just don't want to drop $250 on a "rubber dome" keyboard that is going to wear down in 5 years when I can spend half the price and get a cherry keyboard that will feel the same as day 1 as it does on day 3000.
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I've switched to topre and I'm not going back. If you've been pondering it for over 2 years get on with it! :p
In regards to it wearing down in 5 years, I haven't had the board anywhere near long enough to comment, but $250 for 5 years usage doesn't sound too shabby to me.
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It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...
i have 20 years old rubber domes. they work fine.
It does NOT feel like a rubber dome
a rubber dome keyboard that doesn't feel like a rubber dome? strange. very strange.
The spring and quality of the construction make a big difference. Have you used a topre switch?
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Yeah most people who buy them love em. I just don't want to drop $250 on a "rubber dome" keyboard that is going to wear down in 5 years when I can spend half the price and get a cherry keyboard that will feel the same as day 1 as it does on day 3000.
NO.. cherry loses about 5g of spring force over time. As opposed to topre which gains
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You will bottom out..there is really no stopping it..the drop out in force is far too great for anyone to not bottom out regularly...You can try to not bottom out but it is a waste of time...
Not unless you have 30g domes :) I rarely bottom out on mine.
But on 45g, I bottom out even when I try my hardest not to.
The thought of 30g is nuts to me. Can you activate them by blowing really hard? ;)
I always found it surprising how, despite the drastically higher price tag, the Topre switches experience almost identical ratings to Cherry's.
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/mechanical_switches.php
It could just be a matter of perspective / level of expectations though.
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I bottom out all the time on my Topres. But that's just because the soft landing is oh so sexy, and it's how you get that satisfying Topre "thock".
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I bottom out all the time on my Topres. But that's just because the soft landing is oh so sexy, and it's how you get that satisfying Topre "thock".
on that subject..
I believe the most "crisp" thock sound, is the kind you make from the tongue click sound thingie motion in mouth. Does anyone know the proper term for this LOL ;D
Looked it up, I "think" it's just called clicks... :))
.....clicks are obstruents articulated with two closures (points of contact) in the mouth, one forward and one at the back. The pocket of air enclosed between is rarefied by a sucking action of the tongue (in technical terminology, clicks have a lingual ingressive airstream mechanism). The forward closure is then released, producing what may be the loudest consonants in the language.....
.....wiki
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I find the constant blocking of topre buying funny.
Nevertheless, on ageing, I am sure there are people here that are using the same keyboard as their main driver for more than 10 years. I don't mean you bought an old keyboard, I mean you have been using it constantly for ten years as your main board. However, chances are, the reason you are here is because you like to try out new and different boards, modify boards, and talk about it. So, honestly, ageing or not, 5g + or -, noticeable or not, a realforce is going to last for 10 years pretty well unchanged even if you use it all the time. And in that time, you are going to buy 20 more keyboards.
To each their own and the discussion back and forth about rubber domes and topres has gone on and on on these boards. Some people love 'em and some don't. Some people see it as their mission to let other people know that topre is technically a rubber dome, etc etc. But at the very least, readers should be aware that some people think they're worth it.
I have and type on topres and cherries. They get along so well together, you would never guess how much trouble the topre causes on these boards.
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About switches getting lighter or stiffer over time... your fingers will adapt to the change in weight faster than the switches can change weight.
I also have both 30g and 35g rated domes in the same board, and I can't tell the difference unless I simultaneously press them with the same finger on each hand multiple times. Even then, it's still hard to tell.
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To each their own and the discussion back and forth about rubber domes and topres has gone on and on on these boards. Some people love 'em and some don't. Some people see it as their mission to let other people know that topre is technically a rubber dome, etc etc. But at the very least, readers should be aware that some people think they're worth it.
I have and type on topres and cherries. They get along so well together, you would never guess how much trouble the topre causes on these boards.
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I think the problem is that the topre keyboards are so expensive. If they cost what a cherry keyboard does i don't think people would be so strong to defend or criticize it. I have a HHKB and i sometimes love it and other times want to sell it. I can't even make up my mind. :-\
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Ahhh another Realforce thread reaches multiple pages.
Tried one once. Got sick of trying it shorty after receiving it. Totally not worth the $$$ imho.
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I think Topre is like the Mercedes Benz of keyboards. If you want the most "comfortable" experience, in a highly arguable technical sense, Topre is it. I personally prefer Cherry browns after about 2 years of constantly trying new switches, but I still haven't tried Topre yet.
I know what Topre is like without having tried one. I know how the switch works. That being said, I am perfectly happy with the way Cherry Browns work. Sure it would be nice if the bottom-out experience was a rubber cup with a spring in it, but really... is it necessary? THAT is the question. For some, completely justifiable. For people like me, not so much.
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None of this is "necessary". We could all get by with a $5 bargain bin board.
However, to some, $75 for a keyboard is ridiculous, and to those, $150 for a keyboard is ridiculous, and to those, $300 for a board is ridiculous, and to those, $300 for the right keyboard is perfectly justifiable.
These are also the people who will spend upwards of $1,000 on a chair. It's because when your livelihood depends on sitting in a chair and typing on a keyboard, you want to make sure that you're sitting in the best chair you can buy for your body, and your keyboard is giving you the best typing experience you can get.
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None of this is "necessary". We could all get by with a $5 bargain bin board.
However, to some, $75 for a keyboard is ridiculous, and to those, $150 for a keyboard is ridiculous, and to those, $300 for a board is ridiculous, and to those, $300 for the right keyboard is perfectly justifiable.
These are also the people who will spend upwards of $1,000 on a chair. It's because when your livelihood depends on sitting in a chair and typing on a keyboard, you want to make sure that you're sitting in the best chair you can buy for your body, and your keyboard is giving you the best typing experience you can get.
improvement up until a certain point/ price.... chair is better in that respect than keyboard, because around $100 is the most you can do, everything past that is meh....
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I went to go get a realforce from elitekeyboards and in the checkout it said it wasnt available at this time...maybe it wasnt meant to be.
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$300 for a Topre is expensive but spending the same amount on LZ, KMAC etc they're not expensive. :))
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The discussion of cost is also ignoring the fact that many people here buy keycaps that differ only in looks. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Seems like everytime people talk about keycap design though you don't have as many people going on the board saying that it is overpriced and no different and you don't need it. Obviously those aren't "necessary" either.
I just feel bad that topre has so violated some people. It seems to have made some people care quite a lot about other people's preferences. So be it.
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I do love my HHKB and i won't be selling it. It's just that there are times when i work on it and i think about the cost. However, the quality is exceptional and the USB ports are wonderful as well as the overall design. This is a great keyboard but i can see why some people don't like it. I would love them to come up with a Bluetooth model and maybe find space for the arrow keys. :)
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improvement up until a certain point/ price.... chair is better in that respect than keyboard, because around $100 is the most you can do, everything past that is meh....
You would fall into one of those ranges that I mentioned, proving my point.
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I've tried Filco's and the CM Storm keyboards, but none measure up to my Topre in terms of build quality. Nowhere near it.
People may argue they're similar to regular old rubber domes, but that belies the fact that the build quality of Topre boards are exceptional. I might as well go as far to say that they are almost 1.5 to 2.0 better built than Filco boards. But, other people may disagree.
It's the same as comparing a Camry vs. a Ferrari. They both have engines and four wheels, so they are both classified as "cars", correct? But, they are still very different in other levels. That's the same as a typical rubber dome board vs. a Topre, IMO. Sure, the Topre has rubber, just like other cheap rubber dome boards, but there are other things that are exception with the Topre. Just like the Ferrari is over the Camry. IMO.
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I've tried Filco's and the CM Storm keyboards, but none measure up to my Topre in terms of build quality. Nowhere near it.
People may argue they're similar to regular old rubber domes, but that belies the fact that the build quality of Topre boards are exceptional. I might as well go as far to say that they are almost 1.5 to 2.0 better built than Filco boards. But, other people may disagree.
It's the same as comparing a Camry vs. a Ferrari. They both have engines and four wheels, so they are both classified as "cars", correct? But, they are still very different in other levels. That's the same as a typical rubber dome board vs. a Topre, IMO. Sure, the Topre has rubber, just like other cheap rubber dome boards, but there are other things that are exception with the Topre. Just like the Ferrari is over the Camry. IMO.
LOL, this is the worst thing you can say around here... quality eh? you mean the shaky tops and loose caps?
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That, again, belies all the other positives of Topre build quality. You mention just a couple of things, which admittedly, are problems, as if they represent the quality of Topre boards as a whole, but, again, that doesn't represent everything about Topre boards. Given all this misinformation, your posts constitute nothing less than trolling.
Topre keycaps are some of the best in the business, its switches are of much higher quality (smoother, more smooth than Cherry MX switches), and it has a much heavier plating than Filco boards.
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Having owned lots of cherry boards as well, of varying degrees of quality, I'm going to agree with fuzzy there.
I honestly think tp is just trying to get a rise out of people more than anything.
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That, again, belies all the other positives of Topre build quality. You mention just a couple of things, which admittedly, are problems, as if they represent the quality of Topre boards as a whole, but, again, that doesn't represent everything about Topre boards. Given all this misinformation, your posts constitute nothing less than trolling.
Topre keycaps are some of the best in the business, its switches are of much higher quality (smoother, more smooth than Cherry MX switches), and it has a much heavier plating than Filco boards.
I don't know what your point is.. You idolize topre as the highest quality production, however i "just" disproved your obsession.
Is topre of good quality, yes, even great, also yes... It is however very far from perfect akin to all mass produced keyboards.
From the way you write, it seems you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else that Topre is "worth buying"...
"i'm not saying it's not.." But you gotta let go of your insecurities.. LOL
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That, again, belies all the other positives of Topre build quality. You mention just a couple of things, which admittedly, are problems, as if they represent the quality of Topre boards as a whole, but, again, that doesn't represent everything about Topre boards. Given all this misinformation, your posts constitute nothing less than trolling.
Topre keycaps are some of the best in the business, its switches are of much higher quality (smoother, more smooth than Cherry MX switches), and it has a much heavier plating than Filco boards.
I don't know what your point is.. You idolize topre as the highest quality production, however i "just" disproved your obsession.
Is topre of good quality, yes, even great, also yes... It is however very far from perfect akin to all mass produced keyboards.
From the way you write, it seems you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else that Topre is "worth buying"...
"i'm not saying it's not.." But you gotta let go of your insecurities.. LOL
Are you sure about that? It was you who started the anti-Topre rants. You have a history of bashing Topre products.
I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. ;)
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That, again, belies all the other positives of Topre build quality. You mention just a couple of things, which admittedly, are problems, as if they represent the quality of Topre boards as a whole, but, again, that doesn't represent everything about Topre boards. Given all this misinformation, your posts constitute nothing less than trolling.
Topre keycaps are some of the best in the business, its switches are of much higher quality (smoother, more smooth than Cherry MX switches), and it has a much heavier plating than Filco boards.
I don't know what your point is.. You idolize topre as the highest quality production, however i "just" disproved your obsession.
Is topre of good quality, yes, even great, also yes... It is however very far from perfect akin to all mass produced keyboards.
From the way you write, it seems you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else that Topre is "worth buying"...
"i'm not saying it's not.." But you gotta let go of your insecurities.. LOL
Are you sure about that? It was you who started the anti-Topre rants. You have a history of bashing Topre products.
I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. ;)
Absolutely untrue.. I've never bashed topre... if you are, or have been hurt by what i've said, then it was by your choice in protection of your ego..
I've only ever spoke against putting topre on a pedestal as many owners here have...
I was convinced of their "godly" status soon after joining the forums, only later to learn that they are very far from what people claim.
Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...
However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.
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Ok, okay.
Well, I think they're $300 great. Because, again, the build quality of their boards are exceptional. Amazing switches, one of the best quality keycaps, and a super-super sturdy build (much more sturdy than Filco boards). Makes it worth the price, IMO.
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Ok, okay.
Well, I think they're $300 great. Because, again, the build quality of their boards are exceptional. Amazing switches, one of the best quality keycaps, and a super-super sturdy build (much more sturdy than Filco boards). Makes it worth the price, IMO.
I can accept your above descriptions... It is more down to earth than your Camry to Ferrari analogy.
Please refrain from using the camry to ferrari comparison in the future, as to avoid giving prospective buyers the wrong idea...
Again, I am just making sure people don't go into the topre scene based on "emotions" instigated by wild swings of the written word.
IF a filco WAS a Corolla ....
Then Topre would be a Camry...
If you MUST throw up a ferrari..
Lets say, Topre guts one of those $500 aluminum cases...
Even then I think it's at best a BMW 5 series...
Ferrari would need something with diamonds.
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No, I'll say whatever I want. Why should I change what I write to satisfy you?
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So... what I was going to say earlier was... tp4tissue alluded to problems with the loose tops on Topre boards. This is like complaining that a Ferrari doesn't have enough storage space. People don't give a **** if Ferraris don't have storage space. They're known for other things, like, their engines for example. In the same way, Topre is known for other things, such as the quality of their switches, their build, and their keycaps, that make it worth it for a lot of people. A loose top on a Topre board is not a big deal when all things are considered.
In the same way, lack of storage space isn't that much of a big deal for Ferrari's, when you consider their engines are much more powerful than Camry's.
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So... what I was going to say earlier was... tp4tissue alluded to problems with the loose tops on Topre boards. This is like complaining that a Ferrari doesn't have enough storage space. People don't give a **** if Ferraris don't have storage space. They're known for other things, like, their engines for example. In the same way, Topre is known for other things, such as the quality of their switches, their build, and their keycaps, that make it worth it for a lot of people. A loose top on a Topre board is not a big deal when all things are considered.
In the same way, lack of storage space isn't that much of a big deal for Ferrari's, when you consider their engines are much more powerful than Camry's.
the "case" is very important for the stable feel of the switches.
I've only recently come to realize this after having finally acquired an aluminum case.. the keyboard pcb reverberations are almost completely gone.
A loose case would contribute heavily to the bouncy wobbly feel which many topre users have reported..
rigidity is tantamount.. For $300 I would've expected that it comes with, however, this is only one of many problems where Topre has not measured up to "expectations"
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That doesn't make any sense, though, because it's just the top that's loose. How does that affect the PCB of the case? It's bound to the bottom.
And how does a loose top affect the switches, when the switches are mounted on the bottom? The top doesn't do anything for rigidity.
And, I've had no problems with wobble on my keys. They are certainly less wobbly than any Cherry MX based board I've owned.
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Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...
However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.
The issue is that you're stating your opinion as fact. That's really why people get riled up about what you say. TotalChaos does the same ****. You may not think that the production quality and experience is worth it, but many do.
[...]this is only one of many problems where Topre has not measured up to "expectations"
your expectations.
My newest 55g RF has a rock solid case, and no wobbly keys
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Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...
However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.
The issue is that you're stating your opinion as fact. That's really why people get riled up about what you say. TotalChaos does the same ****. You may not think that the production quality and experience is worth it, but many do.
Yea. There is a big difference between just stating one's opinions, and disregarding and invalidating other people's opinions. Tp4tissue does the latter. The problem we have with him is, whenever someone says they have a positive experience with Topre boards, he literally says "no you don't!" Which... is kind of disrespectful, quite frankly.
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That doesn't make any sense, though, because it's just the top that's loose. How does that affect the PCB of the case? It's bound to the bottom.
And how does a loose top affect the switches, when the switches are mounted on the bottom? The top doesn't do anything for rigidity.
And, I've had no problems with wobble on my keys. They are certainly less wobbly than any Cherry MX based board I've owned.
The top makes A huge difference.... the reason a Convertible is always poor in the corners compared to their Coupe versions.. Have you at least seen top gear?
A rigid top and a rigid bottom,, TIGHTLY sandwiching the middle plate, is what keeps the board steady.
This is far more important in the plastic shelled keyboards, because plastic has alot of flex.. without enough tension exerted by the Top-cover, the bottom will be wobbly.
do some learning before you post about things you have not begun to comprehend.
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Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...
However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.
The issue is that you're stating your opinion as fact. That's really why people get riled up about what you say. TotalChaos does the same ****. You may not think that the production quality and experience is worth it, but many do.
Yea. There is a big difference between just stating one's opinions, and disregarding and invalidating other people's opinions. Tp4tissue does the latter. The problem we have with him is, whenever someone says they have a positive experience with Topre boards, he literally says "no you don't!" Which... is kind of disrespectful, quite frankly.
You're allowed to say you've had a positive experience, and no I don't respect you in the least...
But I respect the common decency in presenting relevant truthful information, rather than Superlative babble which you seem to only say in order to inflate your ego endlessly droning on about the fact that "YOU" bought a topre..
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Well... you're speaking generalities. You'd have to open up a Topre and see how it's built before you can make such statements, no?
It's possible the plate is so tightly bound to the bottom that the top has no affect whatsoever on the overall build quality. Also, the switches are plate-mounted, so I have no idea how a plastic top would do anything to affect the plate. Also, there is still no wobble (relative compared to Cherry MX boards) in my keys, regardless of what's going on with the top.
Stop making things up.
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Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...
However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.
The issue is that you're stating your opinion as fact. That's really why people get riled up about what you say. TotalChaos does the same ****. You may not think that the production quality and experience is worth it, but many do.
Yea. There is a big difference between just stating one's opinions, and disregarding and invalidating other people's opinions. Tp4tissue does the latter. The problem we have with him is, whenever someone says they have a positive experience with Topre boards, he literally says "no you don't!" Which... is kind of disrespectful, quite frankly.
You're allowed to say you've had a positive experience, and no I don't respect you in the least...
But I respect the common decency in presenting relevant truthful information, rather than Superlative babble which you seem to only say in order to inflate your ego endlessly droning on about the fact that "YOU" bought a topre..
Oh. So that's what it comes down to, isn't it? The idea that I own a Topre offends you. That's your problem, not mine. I'll say I love my Topre boards however the **** I want.
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I ****ing love my Topre board.
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agreed that tops make a huge difference in cars and some cherry boards as well. but the case makes absolutely no difference in how topres feel. I know this for a fact having taken many realforces apart, and using one without a case at home, and one with a case at work.
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I ****ing love my Topre board.
Nope, I'll allow you to say that..
What I don't like is you saying that it is better quality/ performance than a Filco while being absolutely baseless.
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But, it is, though. I've owned both. You saying Topres aren't is baseless. In fact, everything you say is baseless.
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agreed that tops make a huge difference in cars and some cherry boards as well. but the case makes absolutely no difference in how topres feel. I know this for a fact having taken many reinforces apart, and using one without a case at home, and one with a case at work.
It absolutely makes a huge difference... Hence the Dramatic difference between HHKB and Topre standard.... The plateagreed that tops make a huge difference in cars and some cherry boards as well. but the case makes absolutely no difference in how topres feel. I know this for a fact having taken many reinforces apart, and using one without a case at home, and one with a case at work.
tension between the top and bottom is what helps keep the wobbling at bay.... Demo an aluminum case and then come back and say the Case doesn't matter to topre...
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There he goes again, absolutely ignoring the fact that khaangaaroo has actually opened a Topre case before.
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Yes, there is a difference between HHKB and a Realforce, they're completely different builds. But I was comparing Realforces with and without a case. (which is where the wobbly case argument comes from).
There is no wobble in the PCB because there are a dozen screws holding it into the metal plate. You can think of the switches, plate, and PCB all as one solid piece since the switches are plate mounted and also sandwiched in between the plate and PCB. The case has no effect on how much tension there is between those pieces.
I understand where you're coming from with the aluminum case argument, cause that indeed does apply to Filco, QFR, etc. But it doesn't to Realforces.
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He's just mad there are people who disagree with him. *shrug* I'm over it. I love my Topre boards, and I'll say they're better than a Filco any day of the week, and tp can disagree all he wants. I'm just not going to feed him any more.
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In other words, how loose the top is has no affect on how the switches work on a Topre. Or, the loose top is not that big of a deal.
So, it's not a big deal, in the same way a lack of storage space on a Ferrari isn't a big deal.
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I'm not feeding him. I'm just stating my opinions.
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Yes, there is a difference between HHKB and a Realforce, they're completely different builds. But I was comparing a Realforces with and without a case. (which is where the wobbly case argument comes from).
There is no wobble in the PCB because there are a dozen screws holding it into the metal plate. You can think of the switches, plate, and PCB all as one solid piece since the switches are plate mounted and also sandwiched in between the plate and PCB. The case has no effect on how much tension there is between those pieces.
I was sure that the plate was as sturdy as can be "BEFORE" I got an aluminum case... prior to this, I, like you also thought the case was just "extraneous", and an aesthetic component..
However, it greatly contributes to the stability of the keyboard...
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I'm not feeding him. I'm just stating my opinions.
And I'm not trolling, I'm just stating the fact that most of your opinions are "wrong" impressions based on egotistical mental fabrications.
The case has significant influence on the stability of the key feel, whether it'd be Cherry MX or Topre..
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I'm not feeding him. I'm just stating my opinions.
And I'm not trolling, I'm just stating the fact that most of your opinions are "wrong" impressions based on egotistical mental fabrications.
No they're not.
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Well on a better note, I ordered a Realforce 45g keyboard this morning from elitekeyboards.com!
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I'm jealous! I had one and i sold it because every time i used my computer, after sleep mode or turning it back on completely, i would have to re-plug in the keyboard for it to work. It just became a pain. Anyone here use a Real Force with a MAC and had problems with it? Thanks. :D
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I'm jealous! I had one and i sold it because every time i used my computer, after sleep mode or turning it back on completely, i would have to re-plug in the keyboard for it to work. It just became a pain. Anyone here use a Real Force with a MAC and had problems with it? Thanks. :D
I use it on a Mac at work with no problems. I've heard someone mention that issue before though. not sure what causes it.
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Well on a better note, I ordered a Realforce 45g keyboard this morning from elitekeyboards.com!
Wow I missed a lot this morning! Anyway, congrats on the board. Would love to hear what you think. I have both HHKBs and the RF 45g and love them both, but my RF 45g is my main driver at the office. I really like it. Daerid's love for the 55g has really tempted me but I like the 45g so much I don't think I am going to try another for a while.
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I was going to get the 55g because yesterday because the website said that it couldn't find the 45g in the inventory. Then today I got on and tried it again and it let me order it. I should get it sometime next week. Once I spend some time on it doing some research papers and homework I will let you know what I think of it.
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I may have a modded 45/55G for sale soon =)
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Modded how?
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I'm gonna swap the domes from the 55g 87U and make a HHKB-S with 55gs, and all of the 45g domes from the HHKB-S will be put onto the 87U, the HHKB has 60 keys, so the 87U will have 60 45gs and 27 55s.
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Funky. BTW, how do you like (or see the differences) of the HHKB pro 2 and the type s?
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I've never had a HHKB pro 2, but in my opinion the silent topre keys are slightly more silent, and have an almost if not identical feel. I'll post something when the HHKB-S arrives.
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I'm jealous! I had one and i sold it because every time i used my computer, after sleep mode or turning it back on completely, i would have to re-plug in the keyboard for it to work. It just became a pain. Anyone here use a Real Force with a MAC and had problems with it? Thanks. :D
I use it on a Mac at work with no problems. I've heard someone mention that issue before though. not sure what causes it.
That may have been me. I did post that before. Sorry.
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Hello everybody. I've browsed this forum for about six months, but this is my first post.
To lead with a little background on me, I've been a self-employed software developer for about 17 years. I only have one employee...me. I'm on my computer for 12 hours per day...more if I were honest about it. Add my gaming on top of that, and I live at my desk. Yes, I'm married and have four kids, but they're older and only two now live at home. But I have a home office, so I can fit the fam in whenever.
Now keyboards...
My first was a Dos Ultimate with browns bought about 2.5 years ago. About six months ago, I bought a variable weighted Realforce 87U Silent for $310. I've also worked on Cherry reds, blues and browns with landing pads.
So, my take on the Topre switches...
The cost:
It's something I spend more time on than my bed. I would've paid $500 to get it. In fact, I kind of did since I also bought the Realforce numberpad for $130 lol. And if you think that's bad, I bought a BodyBilt chair 18 years ago for $1,900. I still use it to this day, and it's one of the best office equipment purchases I've ever made. My point being, price is relative.
The motivation for trying Topre "silent" switches was twofold...
First, I'm tired of the clack-clack of the "silent" Cherry browns. It was novel at first. But I'm constantly on the phone, and clients regularly pointed out my loud typing as I'm taking notes during meetings. And I didn't like the landing pads. They changed the keystroke and it just didn't feel right.
Second, my knuckles were sore at the end of a long day. I don't hammer my keys, but still, the hard landing with the plastic keycap against the plastic deck took its toll. Since I've had my Realforce, no more sore knuckles.
I still use my Dos board for gaming and occasional work. The impressive thing about Cherry switches is longevity. They are workhorses. My Dos keycaps are worn completely smooth and yet the switches actuate like they did the day I bought the keyboard.
Topre or Cherry?...
I like them both, but I'm definitely a Topre convert. The Topre just feels better. It's like butter to type on. Some might not like the light, variable weighted keys. But once you adjust, you lightly tickle the keys and fly. And I don't care if it only lasts three years, I'll probably buy another.
I highly recommend Topre and Realforce...if you can justify / afford it. I also run a 30" IPS primary display at 2560 x 1600, and 24" IPS displays at 1920 x 1200 on each side of that, all three on separate monitor arms. It all helps me get my work done. Like I said...it's all relative.
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Welcome, Macsmasher!
I recently adopted the same philosophy about stuff that I use a lot. I made a rule that if I'm going to be looking at or touching something for more than 30 minutes a day, I'm going to try very hard not think about how much it cost, and just spring for what I'd be most happy with.
Of course not everyone is going to be able to or even want to do that, but at least for me, it's led to fewer regretful purchases.
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Welcome to Geekhack!
Fantastic first post!
Yes, often it is better to get one expensive item (keyboard, chair, whatever) that will last you for years, or at least during its lifetime will not cause you additional expenses).
But if you can't afford that, then get a cheaper alternative every now and again, as they wear out, or to try the alternatives.
Not an approach for everyone - I would love an $1800 chair, but I get by on my $200 chair instead, and I have MX blues and MX blacks for a bit of variety.
I would be curious to try a Topre one day, which would entail actually purchasing one as I don't know anyone who has one, but for now MX suffices.
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i read this thread and bought a uniform 45g realforce board. may tp4 cry in despair!
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Which Real Force makes the most noise when you press the keys? Is it the 45g , or 55 g? I have the HHKB and i think that is universally 45g and i love the sound of it. Also, i read that some people have the 30g force keyboard. Who sells that? Thanks.
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Welcome Mac,
Nice little review of the RF.
Which Real Force makes the most noise when you press the keys? Is it the 45g , or 55 g? I have the HHKB and i think that is universally 45g and i love the sound of it. Also, i read that some people have the 30g force keyboard. Who sells that? Thanks.
That all depends on how you type, if you have relatively stronger fingers, the 55g might help you better since it might prevent your from bottoming out as hard. When I had a variable keyboard, I thought the 30g was way too soft, as I would be accidentally pressing the keys without even noticing it, the type S keyboards definitely help with the noise, but still does not completely mute the keyboard.
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Realforce
That has a nice catalog of most if not all of the RF's available.
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Which Real Force makes the most noise when you press the keys? Is it the 45g , or 55 g? I have the HHKB and i think that is universally 45g and i love the sound of it. Also, i read that some people have the 30g force keyboard. Who sells that? Thanks.
I think 45g and 55g make about the same amount of noise.
Japan sells the 30g boards. All in JIS layout.
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Also the HHKB makes more noise than the RF. They actually sound completely different, due to the plate in the RF.
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I thought the HHKB sounded louder than the RealForce. I had the RealForce for a short time and i thought it sounded quieter. I am happy with the HHKB. If only it had its own arrow keys it would be perfect. I do like the 45g feel.
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I definitely like the small form factor of the HHKB. I even considered getting it in addition to my RF. The Fn + F-Key thing had me on the fence, and I was working really hard at convincing myself I could deal with it lol.
However, the deal breaker for me is the lack of dedicated arrow keys. With three displays, I rely on them heavily to move windows from one display to another. Keyboard shortcuts always trump the mouse, especially in this case. Even with a maximized window, you can pop it to another display without downsizing it...something that's not even possible with a mouse.
Other minor issues are the Home / End keys. I'm constantly highlighting code to copy and paste. Also Page Up / Page Down for vertical navigation. They're simply too handy to relegate to secondary functions, for my work stuff anyway.